Normal (newbie) version of the new Ultima fight for casuals? xD

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Yup, and this thread begins the next nerf consideration.

Don't get me wrong, I dont want it to be that way. I would rather things stay difficult and not get nerfed but after everything else they have done to this game, my cynicism is high.

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I disagree. They made the other raids, with the hopes of more people doing them, this from the beginning they have said is meant to be hard, and not easily accessible.

If they wanted it easily accessible it wouldn't require the savage fights first.

They're also deliberately reusing old assets so that it's taking as much work as the things that they do cater to the majority of players.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

what gear is that? i hate the cash shop but i don't see what gear from fights they put in there.

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Not just gear from fights and not just the cash shop. I got the first fan fest gear from participating in fan fest. Back then there was never any inclination they would add that to the cash shop or in game, it was billeted as a unique one of a kind had to be there sort of item. Now you can have it just cause.

Once upon a time, you could look at someone wearing the Coil gear and know they had gone through hell to get it. now you can get a version from PotD or just breeze your way through the content and get it. Same happened to the very first recil weapon, you had to go through the whole process to get the final weapon, then 3.0 comes out and you can bypass the whole thing and get a glamor version for no effort. I don't care that they are "slightly" different than the versions you had to earn, they should have remained unique and rare, there is no gear in this game that stays unique or rare, eventually everyone can get it. I fear the same will happen with the ultimate rewards cause people will demand it.

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Originally Posted by Anarnee

I disagree. They made the other raids, with the hopes of more people doing them, this from the beginning they have said is meant to be hard, and not easily accessible.

If they wanted it easily accessible it wouldn't require the savage fights first.

They're also deliberately reusing old assets so that it's taking as much work as the things that they do cater to the majority of players.

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fair enough, there are differences between savage raid and ultimate raid. I hope they stay this way, but with SE's track record, I can see nerfs comeing once the content is deemed irrelevant. For now it will stay that way and I wouldnt anticipate nerfs until maybe near the end of 5.0 or halfway through 6.0 but they will come.

Eh, I hate threads like this because it's more about people saying "I am a serious ffxiv player, because I like hard stuff in game and want the hard stuff to stay hard. I'm not some casual!" Meanwhile no one even does the gatekeeping content so they could try it. People worried about nerfing it...in a month or two no one is even going to bother with it, either because they beat it, or because they stopped to preserve their static's sanity. Saying the right things about difficulty so you fall into the correct tribe in the hardcore/casual divide.

I don't even know why people care if its nerfed or not, not like it affects you any.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If Ultimate is such easy mode, I look forward to your world first clear then.

Parsers and voice chat callouts don't do the mechanics for you, nor do they give you the personal skill needed to perform your job at a level where the DPS needed to meet the checks is met. This post is incredibly ignorant.

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They help you deal with the mechanics. The idea is that you have to figure out all the mechs yourself, and with them being random you can't prep for them ahead of time. I've thought of much worse things to add.

Take unavoidable damage and the party wipes
Mess up a rotation and the party wipes.

I want to see REAL hard stuff. Only players that are truly good can finish it.

No just no. Just because you pay for the game doesn't make you entitled to everything in it.

On a side note to those stating that they will never try it:

You're missing out.

My group is slacking (once again), so I'm pugging it (once again), it took about an hour and a half to get Garuda mostly understood and awoken thanks to the benefit of watching streamer clips and such. From what little I've seen so far, it's a hugely entertaining fight and a magnificent throwback to various points when the original 3 primals were still rough. If you've got memories of good times working on Titan HM or Ifrit EX, you'll love this stuff I bet.

Even if you're not that confident in your DPS, as long as you've got 370 gear and full vit melds, you're good to go. Adjusting yourself and getting your head round the pace of those aoes and mechanics will put almost everything else this game has to offer in a different light.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

They help you deal with the mechanics. The idea is that you have to figure out all the mechs yourself, and with them being random you can't prep for them ahead of time. I've thought of much worse things to add.

Take unavoidable damage and the party wipes
Mess up a rotation and the party wipes.

I want to see REAL hard stuff. Only players that are truly good can finish it.

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You do realize that triggers are optional, right? ACT doesn’t automatically come with them; they’re made by players. And you do realize that, in order for said triggers to be made, raiders have to first figure out the mechanics and how they work first, right?

Take Nael’s RP mechanics from UCoB, in which even the world first groups said to use triggers for them because reading a tiny speech bubble amidst all of her other crap (speech bubbles which aren’t voiced like they are in Tsukuyomi Ex) is just unnecessary. In order for them to figure out whether it was Thermo > Lunar Dynamo, Lunar Dynamo > Chariot, etc., they had to actually do the mechanics first-hand with no such callouts. That being said, you can have a robot voice screaming “White Hole” or “Lunar Dynamo into Chariot” in your ear all day long—that doesn’t tell you how you properly deal with said mechanic. You still have to perform the mechanic correctly, or suffer the consequences...which, in Ultimate, is instant death to party wipe.

There are mechanics in both UCoB and UwU that, if one person messes them up, the entire party dies. Divebomb Dragons during Nael: if one person with the divebomb marker doesn’t go where they need to, the entire party is dead. If one person in Garuda with 3 stacks of Thermal Low gets 3 stacks/cleanses those 3 stacks, the entire party is dead. The things you’re asking for are already present in the content. You would know that if you actually followed the streams/participated in the content.

Same for voice-callouts for the same things. You are still responsible for doing the mechanics properly. “Middle to North” for small Trines in God Kefka can only help you so much; you’re still responsible for moving appropriately. Zero communication doesn’t make the content itself hard; it makes it simulate difficulty because people aren’t communicating and mucking up. Any raider worth their salt would tell you that communication is key to clearing content, but the lack of communication doesn’t make the content itself hard. It just creates an artificially hard environment because people aren’t talking to each other.

Again, your post is full of ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

They help you deal with the mechanics. The idea is that you have to figure out all the mechs yourself, and with them being random you can't prep for them ahead of time. I've thought of much worse things to add.

Take unavoidable damage and the party wipes
Mess up a rotation and the party wipes.

I want to see REAL hard stuff. Only players that are truly good can finish it.

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This is a team game? The whole idea is the team communicates and coordinates otherwise why not play a single player game?

If this isn't "real hard stuff," I expect to see your Ultima Weapon sometime this week, yes? You also cleared UCoB and Savage week one, right? Or are you such a magnificent player that you can't be bothered to do all this "easy" content?

Given Adeacia's gear and leveled classes I'm going to assume they're a troll since they've apparently not touched anything harder than Omega normal.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

When the ultimate series was announced yoshi stated it would have an ilv sync to preserve the difficulty through the expansion. However I don't believe any mention of unsyncing it later was made; I doubt we'll get any info on that before 5.0.

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This.
Several people claimed the ultimate fights will never be level sync-able. Please show your sources where it has been said. So far it is ilvl sync, and that's all. Wait and see, we will know in a year :)

The weapons would stop being trophy weapons if they ever allowed the fights to be overgeared. So I'm against ever unsyncing them.

I pretty much raid log and my static raids two nights a week for 2-3 hours (half the time we don't even get that full amount). It is hard to get more casual than that. The raid content cycle is so long that there's a decent chance we will clear the encounter before the next round of Savage raids comes out.

"I'm casual" really doesn't cut it. It's a cop-out euphemism for, "I don't want to put any effort in". 99.99% of the game's content is already right there on the table for people who approach the game that way. Ultimate fights are there for those of us who get satisfaction from pushing ourselves to improve.

Creating a "story mode" version or something of that nature ruins the sense of accomplishment and the excitement of progressing for hours, days, or weeks on something to see that awesome transition, hear the changing music, and be dazzled by that pretty spell effect. It is precisely that sense of, "I worked hard to see this" that makes such content enjoyable. To use a slightly over-the-top metaphor: if you could take an elevator to an enclosed viewing deck atop Mt. Everest, would anyone bother to climb it anymore?

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Used to be the terms hardcore and casual in terms of gamers only referred to the amount of time someone actually plays a game.

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The terms "hardcore'' and "casual" have always had various meanings, with most people having differing opinions on what it refers to.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

You know, I say let's do to these ultimate fights what happened with PvP rewards. So when 4.5 drops, make UCOB inacessible forevermore (maybe UwU too, so that only the latest ultimate can be accessed). And keep this rotation going so at any one time there's only 2 Ultimate's accessible at any one time (at most, I'd prefer only one). I think that's likely to make people git gud. Since you have to be quick or else you'll miss out on the content. Because then if an ultimate inspires you, you gotta work pretty fast to be able to access it for yourself.

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Split the difference. Only have one or the other available in a locked "minimum ilevel/no unsync" mode, that switches every week, players who clear it correctly (Eg no skipped mechanics, all party members alive at the end) under the locked mode is the only time it counts as a clear. The time taken to clear goes on a leaderboard for that week. Top 3 parties of players of that week per server get a one-time reward that is independent of any achievement. When it's not locked to minimum ilevel it's simply not available, or only available as "practice mode" where the time limit is set to the current best clear time.

We have enough content that is perpetually inaccessible due to their tie-ins with seasonal events. So hard content shouldn't be like that, since the entry requirement is that you've beaten all other content before it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

(Eg no skipped mechanics, all party members alive at the end)

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No skipped mechanics? That would be a dumb constraint. There's no reason to punish people for being good at their jobs.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

No skipped mechanics? That would be a dumb constraint. There's no reason to punish people for being good at their jobs.

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That's to avoid players finding an exploit like ungarmax again. Like the underlying thing might simply be a check that the boss actually progressed through it's stages at the right HP levels, and not because a party figured out how to break the boss so it get's stuck in an animation lock.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's to avoid players finding an exploit like ungarmax again. Like the underlying thing might simply be a check that the boss actually progressed through it's stages at the right HP levels, and not because a party figured out how to break the boss so it get's stuck in an animation lock.

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Ungarmax was an entirely separate issue, but I can see where you're coming from. Regardless, bosses are really designed one of two ways:
1) They go on a strict timer
2) They go on HP percentage

The first variety, with exceptional dps, can lead to fights getting ended early. Not an issue but you're skipping the final mechanics.
The second variety, with exceptional dps, will lead to mechanic skipping by its very nature.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's to avoid players finding an exploit like ungarmax again. Like the underlying thing might simply be a check that the boss actually progressed through it's stages at the right HP levels, and not because a party figured out how to break the boss so it get's stuck in an animation lock.

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Those are not remotely the same thing. Ungarmax allowed players to use an ability that wasn't available outside of Squad dungeons. Mechanic skips simply meant the party did so much combined damage, the boss phased early, thus never doing the mechanic. For example sake, let's use the ever beloved Zurvan EX. He will always phase into his next set of mechanics at 74.9%. Pushing him to that point isn't an exploit, it's just good players being good.

Do Garuda Extreme minimal ilevel, Ifrit Extreme minimal ilevel, Titan Extreme minimal ilevel and then finish it off with Ultima's Bane at minimal ilevel. It'll last longer than UwU, but it's as close as you can get for a 'casual friendly' Ultimate Ultima.

For super casual, downgrade the Extreme's to Hard, but keep Ultima's Bane as the last hurdle (while all still minimal ilevel).

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Natural iLev increases will also destroy the point of the fights. I've been running the BCoB that used to be one of the endgame hardcore raids. Two expansions later, even synced down, its a cakewalk.

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Is this just synced? or minimal ilevel?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Do Garuda Extreme minimal ilevel, Ifrit Extreme minimal ilevel, Titan Extreme minimal ilevel and then finish it off with Ultima's Bane at minimal ilevel. It'll last longer than UwU, but it's as close as you can get for a 'casual friendly' Ultimate Ultima.

For super casual, downgrade the Extreme's to Hard, but keep Ultima's Bane as the last hurdle (while all still minimal ilevel).



Is this just synced? or minimal ilevel?

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I believe the ilvl for atleast Bahamut is 345, I also believe most people who cleared it had to be at that ilvl to have a chance.

MageBlack is specifically talking about the ARR Bahamut raids.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

MageBlack is specifically talking about the ARR Bahamut raids.

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Even synced, a lot of Coil was nerfed since it was relevant. So it's going to be easier now even at minimum ilvl than it was at launch. The Devs naturally nerf older content as new expansion release, but Coil suffered other nerfs as well.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Ungarmax was an entirely separate issue, but I can see where you're coming from. Regardless, bosses are really designed one of two ways:
1) They go on a strict timer
2) They go on HP percentage

The first variety, with exceptional dps, can lead to fights getting ended early. Not an issue but you're skipping the final mechanics.
The second variety, with exceptional dps, will lead to mechanic skipping by its very nature.

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You're not telling me anything I don't know. Given the propensity for the NA players to try and break the content for personal gain, I would rather the dev's not reward players for figuring out to break the content. Create a leaderboard, let players "play it back" inside the game via the duty recorder. If players suspect something isn't kosher about it, they can report it that way.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Even synced, a lot of Coil was nerfed since it was relevant. So it's going to be easier now even at minimum ilvl than it was at launch. The Devs naturally nerf older content as new expansion release, but Coil suffered other nerfs as well.

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Only Second Coil was really hit with the nerf hammer, changing instant kill mechanics to... not. I've actually never really tried any of the Coils at minimal ilevel and now kinda want to now...

Except T9. I really do not like the dive bombs and elemental mechanics in that fight :(

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You're not telling me anything I don't know. Given the propensity for the NA players to try and break the content for personal gain, I would rather the dev's not reward players for figuring out to break the content. Create a leaderboard, let players "play it back" inside the game via the duty recorder. If players suspect something isn't kosher about it, they can report it that way.

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Hmm, suppose those thirteen JP groups with God Kefka kills below 8:30 just don't exist.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You're not telling me anything I don't know. Given the propensity for the NA players to try and break the content for personal gain, I would rather the dev's not reward players for figuring out to break the content. Create a leaderboard, let players "play it back" inside the game via the duty recorder. If players suspect something isn't kosher about it, they can report it that way.

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Besides the Ungarmax exploit, there's not really been a historical way to 'break' content beyond performing exceptionally well and doing damage faster than anticipated for the content. I fail to see how this qualifies as seeking to 'break the content for personal gain'. It's just performing well, and the content 'breaks' in some sense as a result. What are people supposed to do, intentionally gimp their damage?

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of people who seek to 'break' content or otherwise discover tricks for easier completion, do so purely for the challenge of it all. It's not always for personal gain. This is clearly demonstrated by the existence of things like speed runs years and years ago, pre-dating services like Twitch that allowed such efforts to be monetized. I made a run of one of my favourite games, Half-life, on the hardest difficulty without suffering a single point of damage outside of unavoidable environmental damage. I didn't film it, I didn't broadcast it, and I certainly didn't do it for personal gain - I did it because it was a challenge. Assigning motivation is tricky.

I mention this particularly because I've seen previous posts of yours indicating a distinct bias toward NA, including the one above. It's worth remembering that not everything one dislikes can be cleanly judged...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Hmm, suppose those thirteen JP groups with God Kefka kills below 8:30 just don't exist.

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...and our judgments also tend to inflict collateral damage, on occasion.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You're not telling me anything I don't know. Given the propensity for the NA players to try and break the content for personal gain, I would rather the dev's not reward players for figuring out to break the content.

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Either I'm not telling you anything you don't know, and you're being hypocritical, or I am and you're just not listening. The content breaks on its own naturally no matter which way content is designed. I suppose a caveat is when the content is designed with theoretical max dps output in mind, which comes with its own issues.

Its not an NA thing. It's a natural thing that happens as a result of team dps being a variable devs have little control over save for the minimum.

Not to mention any leaderboard under your suggestion would be laughable because there'd be an upper limit to it.

They'll do like they do with all the cool mechanics from everything and slowly filter them into dungeon/24 man bosses.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I really hope not. It would completely destroy the point of those fights. Its not like these fights have any story, or even new assets that can't be accessed in any other part of the game.

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Agreed these fights should remain synched forever, they are the bragging rights and should be treated as the ultimate test of the game as such their relevancy and difficulty should remain always the same

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

uhh, what? when?

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Since the terms started. Casual doesn't have a darn thing to do with skill level. Nor does hardcore. Literally nothing to do with skill, somehow this new generation of gamers decided those terms were based on skill. In which case, I guess i'm hardcore cause I cleared O8S? smdh

These terms started back in the EQ days....

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

From my view, ultimate already is easy mode. If it's supposed to be hard:

No pre-made parties allowed
Mechanics are completely random.

Parsers and voice chat don't work. (impossible to happen obviously)

Let's see people finish that.

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1) What experience do you have to qualify your opinion? You do not participate in ultimate content, let alone Savage.

2) Your suggestions clearly demonstrate that you lack critical thinking skills about general game design.

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They help you deal with the mechanics. The idea is that you have to figure out all the mechs yourself, and with them being random you can't prep for them ahead of time. I've thought of much worse things to add.

Take unavoidable damage and the party wipes
Mess up a rotation and the party wipes.

I want to see REAL hard stuff. Only players that are truly good can finish it.

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Figuring out the mechanics yourself already happens for world firster's. There are no guides for them. ACT doesn't magically solve mechanics for them.

Truly random mechanic design isn't actually possible to be design. You can design a lot of variables that make it appear random, but it won't be truly random, as you'd need to redesign the entire game from the ground up to accommodate that paradigm.

Your suggestions about wiping further reinforce my statement above. You clearly lack critical thinking skills with respect to game design.

But you knew that already and were just being inflammatory for fun, like the last time I called you out and obliterated your flimsy stance.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You're not telling me anything I don't know. Given the propensity for the NA players to try and break the content for personal gain, I would rather the dev's not reward players for figuring out to break the content. Create a leaderboard, let players "play it back" inside the game via the duty recorder. If players suspect something isn't kosher about it, they can report it that way.

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This isn't a real thing btw. I don't know why you have such a habit of fabricating events that are either so small scale or flat out misinformation as some kind of justification for your statements.

it really cant be

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

Since the terms started. Casual doesn't have a darn thing to do with skill level. Nor does hardcore. Literally nothing to do with skill, somehow this new generation of gamers decided those terms were based on skill. In which case, I guess i'm hardcore cause I cleared O8S? smdh

These terms started back in the EQ days....

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you have a very rigid definition of the term. it's not simply a matter of time or skill, it's a combination of both or lack of either.

back in the EQ days or pre-internet gaming days. people who spent a lot of time on games had to be good at them to a certain degree, those games didn't allow you to progress if you were really unskilled at gaming. true casuals in those days simple choose to play different types of games or not play games at all.

gaming has evolved, so terminology also should evolve to reflect that.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you have a very rigid definition of the term. it's not simply a matter of time or skill, it's a combination of both or lack of either.

back in the EQ days or pre-internet gaming days. people who spent a lot of time on games had to be good at them to a certain degree, those games didn't allow you to progress if you were really unskilled at gaming. true casuals in those days simple choose to play different types of games or not play games at all.

gaming has evolved, so terminology also should evolve to reflect that.

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Negative sir, the term hardcore was defined by people who spent a lot of time raiding. Hardcore raiders, that's how it was used. Had literally nothing to do with "skill". You could be a hardcore raider and still suck and guess what? There was no negative light around either of the terms. Unlike today when people call casual players "filthy casuals". It's stupid that you think the terms need to EVOLVE to this. I don't know what you think a "true casual" is or was back then but you clearly didn't play EQ or UO or even vanilla wow if that's what you think.

If you think gaming has evolved to shaming people who don't play as much or aren't as skilled as the next player then I have lost all hope in this community.

Usually hardcore in MMOs is a function of how hard the content can be plus how long of a grind or prerequisite it takes to do it. In Sky in ffxiv, it could take 4 hours to get a chance at a pop item to trigger a boss who dropped maybe one or two pieces of equipment for a whole raid. here you queue up for fifteen minutes and fight for 15 minutes to get half or a quarter of a piece of that. Something like Lineage II is hardcore as they get.

Hardcore is about how much you invest into something... you can be a hardcore ff14 player and never even touch savage... you can spend all your waking hours (not playing) studying crafting recipies and memorizing gathering nodes... you could be a hardcore housing junkie... you can be a hardcore RPer (or ERPer if that's your thing)... you can be a hardcore chocobo racer, pvper, minion/mount collector, fashionista... literally anything you put a large amount of time and energy can be hardcore... casuals generally dabble but don't throw their all into anything... they play but they arnt going to invest the same amount of time/energy/resources as a hardcore would...

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

If you think gaming has evolved to shaming people who don't play as much or aren't as skilled as the next player then I have lost all hope in this community.

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Your opinion on this is actually far too black and white. You will find that those who truly coined the "Hardcore - casual" debate are those who exist in the grey spectrum in the middle. Those at the top are looking for their own challenges in the game and aren't concerned about others. These players tend to play in premades and statics so you aren't often matched with them. On the flip-side, the true casuals don't actually care about this game all that much. To them it is just a game that they play to have fun in amongst other games that they play.

What you referring to is a joyful little pocket of the spectrum somewhere in the middle that I shall call "the entitled parallels". These are players who THINK they are hardcore or casual and tend to try to speak on behalf of these groups. You'll notice their behavior as very controlling, either of other players or of the game developers. Both sides are especially guilty of asking for things to be taken away from the other, and it is amusing to see. This thread is an example of the lower end of this parallel, asking for ultimate to be taken away from the upper parallel.

Absolutely not.

At the end of the day this is a game. You need to win in games. These are not books or movies. Strive to play better and experience the content first-hand. Stop asking for hand-outs.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

At some point in the future, no doubt when the next expansion comes, both Ultimate Bahamut and Refrain will probably have an option to unsync and considering some lvl 70 players still have issues with Sephirot and Nidhogg mechs, the ultimates shouldn't lose too much difficulty at all.

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If SqE has even a shred of decency they will not allow these fights to be ran unsynced.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

This isn't a real thing btw. I don't know why you have such a habit of fabricating events that are either so small scale or flat out misinformation as some kind of justification for your statements.

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I don't fabricate things, use your google noodle. It's not my fault some hardcore raiders want to deny their favorite strategies are exploits.

I brought up ungarmax, because players would go "well SE doesn't do anything about it, so it's legit" when it's an exploit that SE doesn't immediately fix. It's also clear that SE has the means to playback any combat event in the game, so just extend that ability to all competitive leaderboards. This type of argument is brought up a lot in every game when the exploits start being used by the script kiddies out in the open because they see no consequences forthcoming at all.

It takes 10 seconds on google to see several different times where players have used unintended strategies or found ways to lock the boss animation. It is not an unreasonable request that players are not rewarded for using exploits.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoints

Negative sir, the term hardcore was defined by people who spent a lot of time raiding. Hardcore raiders, that's how it was used. Had literally nothing to do with "skill". You could be a hardcore raider and still suck and guess what? There was no negative light around either of the terms. Unlike today when people call casual players "filthy casuals". It's stupid that you think the terms need to EVOLVE to this. I don't know what you think a "true casual" is or was back then but you clearly didn't play EQ or UO or even vanilla wow if that's what you think.
If you think gaming has evolved to shaming people who don't play as much or aren't as skilled as the next player then I have lost all hope in this community.

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Agreeing with this. As a casual player, I've partied up with "hardcore/elite" players from an old FC of mine thinking they would be amazing. Brilliant crafters and MB management skill, yet despite their hardcore raiding and being categorised as "hardcore," they were absolutely awful at their classes - and not just their specific classes, but at like... dungeoning in general. Kept getting hit by aoes, slow reaction times, mindless gameplay in general. It didn't matter what class they played as or what dungeon or raid (that I experienced with them) they were doing, they sucked and it was pretty miserable partying up with them (we just didn't... have chemistry, I guess.). XD Hardcore does not always mean good player. Casual does not always mean bad player and I don't think these terms have ever "evolved" to indicate otherwise as a community, but maybe in some individuals' minds it has? But... yenno, those individuals can think what they want.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Your opinion on this is actually far too black and white. You will find that those who truly coined the "Hardcore - casual" debate are those who exist in the grey spectrum in the middle.

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Also agreeing with this.

(Edit: The rest of your snippet was very interesting as well in retrospect of my excerpt above.)