But then why do people who are perfectly willing to bring their respective (and possibly main) job to the content have the risk of missing out on an upgrade to someone who doesn't need the ilvl increase as urgently? It really looks like entitlement when somebody gets upset that somebody else has job/role precedence on a random drop they may even be able to use right then and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuseigoes
People are capable of handling mechanics on their alts. Just as well as people can neglect to do mechanics on their mains. If they insinuate that they want people to have the absolute minimum difficulty handling mechanics for every content by just playing their main job, why even play any of your alt jobs anywhere? :thinking: Just run your main on everything.Quote:
And as for runs going smoother, you're right that its when people do mechanics, but wouldn't you say that mechanics are easier to handle in a job you're more comfortable in? :thinking:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chyro
Oh, lol no, just made a little something of my character that's visually Castlevania-inspired.
Been running Ridorana Lighthouse the whole week and...
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06-02-2018, 07:54 PMCidel
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06-02-2018, 08:18 PMAlleoAnd you still could have done that with the old system. You just had to have luck (which you need too right now) that the one that could roll need does not need it. But unlike before those that need gear thanks to having a low main job will now lose the roll to someone that does not need it for their main or for gear progression at all. So before that people could gear up their jobs if they want to with need, and all those people that did not want to run the instance with the job could still get loot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuseigoes
In the end you might now not even be able to gear your monk because everyone can only greed now and might roll on it just to have something..thus your chance is not much higher and those that could need it for their main will have a lesser chance...great change! -
06-02-2018, 08:25 PMTristanBlane100% same ,I don't even bother. I'm glad the gear is so ugly that it doesn't bother me too much but whatever. Hopefully SE changes this soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira
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06-02-2018, 10:17 PMPastahnak
So I just want to start by saying I think the greed all system is still dumb, but I understand why it's there. JP and NA/EU play MMOs incredibly differently in that JP players don't really leave between patches or lulls while it's common for NA players to get off for a month or so and play something else while they wait for new content. So when we get to something like the 24 man that is treated like catch up gear in NA for people who don't play as much, in JP it's used to gear up jobs they don't play as much, still a sort of catch up gear system but for different reasons. I've found myself treating the 24man like this where I go in as a tank (something I'm comfortable playing on) and I've been rolling on monk gear(something I'm not comfortable on but would like to learn to play better, and also dat Vaan gear <3), both times I've won my loot the past two weeks, I've asked any mnk/sam in the party if I could roll (first week there was no one to ask, second week there was)
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06-02-2018, 10:20 PMBillyKaplanThey don't like this change either, supposedly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastahnak
That's because you are a decent individual.Quote:
both times I've won my loot the past two weeks, I've asked any mnk/sam in the party if I could roll (first week there was no one to ask, second week there was)
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06-02-2018, 10:22 PMVaerAnd the reverse is also true. If you main healer or tank, but don't want to deal with it because 24 mans are a super slog with people dying constantly or people OTing in tank stance you can also switch to DPS and still roll on healer/tank gear while someone else does all the work. So really to me, it's a wash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuseigoes
Also, my point was why is greed only needed if you can get catch up gear in many other ways like you said.
Personally I haven't seen it get any smoother. Still a lot of wipes due to basic mistakes.
I honestly can't tell who this change helps (other than SE, since it probably makes it take longer to get gear) other than a subset of players that don't want to play the job but still want to get gear for it.
I don't really care about the 24 man gear since I do savage, but I feel bad for players who are outrolled for upgrades especially healers that have to raise 50 people per run and returning players that need upgrades really badly but can't win anything since their job set happens to have a good glamour piece. -
06-02-2018, 10:59 PMLeloa
I have been lucky with my drops the past two weeks, my main is with 360 and 370 ilvl gear so don't really care which alt gets and what :P Don't rely on raid gear with your main
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06-02-2018, 11:06 PMPentheaThat's because most wipes in alliance raids are due to people not knowing boss tactics, not because they don't know their class or it's not well geared. For many bosses no amount of gear or class familiarity will save you if certain or enough mechanics aren't done correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaer
In other words, greed only failed to improve the quality of the groups in alliance raids. I don't know if that was SE's goal as they have been annoyingly quiet about this, but it's at least a rumour going around. -
06-02-2018, 11:26 PMMOZZYSTARI did, but I now have even higher options of getting it assuming there was X class in the party. There have been people (myself included) that will need for gear they don't need to gear up just to sell off to GC (or some other reason). While it's less likely to happen in Rid atm, given it's loot once a week, it will eventually happen. Personally, I get the greed-only option for older raids... not for new ones that are loot once a week only.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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06-03-2018, 12:34 AMBillyKaplanX class who might need it a lot more than you do given you haven't even brought that class into the raid. To surmise, the only reason you're in favor of this change so far is that it worked in your favor. I wonder how much you'd be supportive if the healer gear you were waiting for had dropped, but you lost the roll to a DRG who spent most of the run on the floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR
I'd go as far as to add anything that is on-level. People have had a hard time catching up with Rabanastre because of this.Quote:
Personally, I get the greed-only option for older raids... not for new ones that are loot once a week only.
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06-03-2018, 01:06 AMBourne_EndeavorActually, this happened once by accident. A GM did contact the player who agreed to pass but rolled anyway. The item was taken away since they agreed to give it up. No idea if they still follow that system but it's happened before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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06-03-2018, 01:13 AMFreyt
I can see both sides to this, but losing gear you need on a job you're playing to a different job is pretty painful, and I don't think that's ideal.
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06-03-2018, 01:19 AMPentheaIf this is true then I wonder why the hell they brought in greed only. SE are just creating extra work for themselves by introducing greed only and have GMs take loot away from those who said they would pass. Keeping need rolls would almost entirely eliminate this extra work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
This loot change makes even less sense now. Wth SE. -
06-03-2018, 02:39 AMMOZZYSTARPersonally speaking (and I realise this comment wasn't aimed at me), I'm not supporting this all-greed business 100%, but I don't mind it either. I don't think you should assume people are trolls just because they have a different opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhailor
Edit: Though, what does make me question is... if there are so many people being very vocal and very loud about this dislike, then why did SE make this change in the first place? If anything, those who support it (or don't mind it) seem to be in the minority, so it couldn't have been people demanding this all-greed change. Anyone have any ideas? Like, links to articles that specify the why, etc? -
06-03-2018, 02:42 AMMahrzeWait wait wait, wasn't the whole reasoning that it was a JP community request? Sauce of this dislike by them?Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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06-03-2018, 02:48 AMMOZZYSTARWait, so... they implemented something because only one region(?) wanted it? (And now Japan doesn't want it?) SE didn't even consider all the others (NA & EU)? We're all their member base, not just Japan. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Mahrze
Having catered to communities before, I totally get like... one group being very vocal and demanding, so you implement X to appease them... but then when X is implemented all the others that weren't considered get upset, and the ones that asked for it change their minds as well, blahblahblah. It's a difficult situation... So, if so many people are against it, maybe it'll revert back in the near future? -
06-03-2018, 02:59 AMArianeWell, if its causing people to send support tickets in over it, this will get them to change it back. This was the reason they flipped on not letting you take items out of the glamour dresser. They were getting support tickets from players who accidentally put the wrong items in there. They don't want to hire more GMs to deal with the increase number support tickets, so they usually rather fix the problem in game especially if the fix is easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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06-03-2018, 03:14 AMPentheaOh I don't disagree that sending support tickets would make them more likely to reconsider the loot change. I'm just puzzled why they allow GMs to help players in such a way that goes against the change in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariane
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06-03-2018, 03:21 AMBillyKaplanOf course you won't, you won the piece of gear you wanted. The people who are vocal here are going to be those on the other end of the bargain.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR
SE rarely seems to move anything unless the Japanese playerbase is vocal about it, regardless of how much noise EU and NA players make. I dare say the only reason we got the bunny outfit unlocked for males wasn't so much how long it took, but that the Japanese players started asking for it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOZZYSTAR
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06-03-2018, 03:28 AMLuin
Should have been like Savage loot system, minus the chest lockout on clear. Get a page to trade in for any piece of gear, but can also win a piece of loot.
The idea should have been to make sure nobody ever leaves without a piece of gear.
It definitely is. GMs take player contracts seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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06-03-2018, 06:03 AMTsumdereI'ma go blue in the face if I keep reposting these links.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahrze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumdere
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06-03-2018, 06:14 AMAlleoYes which is quite the irony. There seems to even have been posts on the JP forum that says that you only deserve the gear if you went into this with the correct job. On the last page of the thread that Tsumdere posted, they talk how this is much more stress to run it now, because you cant be sure to get the loot that they need and that they will run it only once per week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahrze
Sounds exactly like our arguments. -
06-03-2018, 06:21 AMRansom
I was going to ask how hard it would be to set the JP servers for greed only and the NA/EU servers for need/greed, thereby giving everyone what they prefer culturally (everyone wins!) but it sounds like this isn't a cultural thing after all.
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06-03-2018, 06:34 AMAwha
I do not understand how others think the greed only system is unfair it allows everyone in the party equal chance at getting the drop at the end. That seems fair in my eyes. I have also yet to win anything, but I also mostly only do it once and move on. I get the intention behind the change.
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06-03-2018, 06:46 AMMahrze#spreaditlikebutterQuote:
Originally Posted by Tsumdere
Now if their QA thread gets the hype and doe sa "yoshi p y u do dis" so they undo the silly thing, it'd be peachy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
In a nutshell. /sQuote:
"I dunno y u say it bad. evry1 can roll for it. 's all good. I no get anything cuz I only do eet once a wekk so idc, but I say it gud."
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06-03-2018, 06:48 AMBillyKaplan
Gotta love the "it doesn't affect me so there isn't a problem" crowd.
Including individuals who can't even use the job, don't use the job, spent the majority of the run dead on the floor or afking by constantly initiating battles and initiating loot roles so they can't be kicked, people who refuse to perform the higher risk/difficulty roles like healers and tanks but still take immediate upgrades from the people playing those roles within that instance...Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
It's true you could've suffered from some of those situations before, but the odds of that happening were much smaller. Right now, about the only way in which is is fair is how many people you run the risk of rolling against. That is to say - everyone's equally screwed. It is fair in the sense the probabilities are now equal for everyone, but it fails every other definition of the word. -
06-03-2018, 07:02 AMAwhaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mahrze
Maybe I am just an odd ball, but as a tank I personally never understood why in a PUG I should get better chances over another player for getting a piece of gear, it was a group effort so in my eyes it is only fair in the entire group has a chance to roll on the item at the end. Sure it might not be fair to individual players, but it is fair for the group as a whole, since as you said everyone has an equal chance at the item.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
Might just be me, but it seems Mahrze is fairly hostile and while my English is not all that great I do not think my post warranted such a flippant reply. It is what it is though. -
06-03-2018, 07:14 AMJeykama
Don't really see how all-greed is any more or less fair than fighting 7 other people for a shaft in Sigma for four weeks - only that Ridorana takes awhile and you can't focus a certain boss.
Maybe every non-savage/ult raid should do the bolt/lens/spring/pedal/shaft thing then. -
06-03-2018, 07:16 AMBillyKaplanThen you need to reread my post because I listed some examples. For starters, the other players might not have the job unlocked, not to mention in a relevant level. You, however, do, proof of being on that job while in the instance. Why should they be given the same right to roll on it as someone who'd actually need the piece right now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
Was it, though? Really? Healers in particular have it rough on the first weeks of 24-player raids. And you're saying that the self-same dps who spent most of the time dead has as much right to roll on the healer gear that dropped, despite it being immediate upgrade for the people who kept the party alive? Fair numbers wise. Otherwise, no, it's really not fair.Quote:
it was a group effort
And they do in every other piece of content - assuming the people with Need roles did not use them so the Greed roll initiates. It's not like people never manage to Greed anything with the Need button enabled.Quote:
so in my eyes it is only fair in the entire group has a chance to roll on the item at the end.
Ok see if you can follow this concept - a group is made of individuals.Quote:
Sure it might not be fair to individual players, but it is fair for the group as a whole
Like you said, it's much shorter. There can also be a debate about difficulty if only due to how many people are in the instance. Then there's the fact that in Sigma you have much less rng to fight because the drops are currency - you don't have to run it a billion times only to get to the last chest in the Lighthouse and see that your caster chest piece didn't drop. Again. And if you disband on Hashmel while you needed a top piece, which only drops from the 3rd and 4th chests? It's not even comparable when you think about it like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeykama
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06-03-2018, 07:30 AMSeniadeThis was worse with the old system: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...90#post4019190Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
I quite frequently saw players horribly under-geared using accessories to bypass the min item level, that didn't know how to play their alt class, just to skew the gear rolls in their favor. -
06-03-2018, 07:41 AMBillyKaplanYou know what would help with that? Being able to roll Need on a healer piece that dropped in that instance instead of losing it to a MNK which is what happens right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seniade
As for your particular example with accessories, I notice your post is well over a year old. Since then 61+ accessories became role-locked so people can't do that anymore.
I'll let you in on a secret. Some people don't know how to play their mains.Quote:
that didn't know how to play their alt class
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06-03-2018, 07:48 AMSeniadeThe player did have healer accessories. The problem is that for average item level requirements, all pieces are treated equal, but accessories have the lowest overall stats and a lack of defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
I'd rather lose a roll to a MNK that actually played competently than to a dead weight co-healer that's really a DPS main that's just moonlighting as a healer for improved roll odds. -
06-03-2018, 07:52 AMBillyKaplanI should hope the developers take more into account than personal spite when reviewing the feedback for this change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seniade
As for the rest of the scenario, I agree there's a problem, but not that this is the solution. Maybe revisit the weight for ilvl, have a minimal vit rate to queue. All-Greed is not the solution, especially since ultimately it does not, in fact, keep people from playing classes they're bad at. -
06-03-2018, 07:53 AMMahrzeSo, better for it to be lost on a generic roll to whoever than someone who went in specifically to get it, regardless of performance? lol ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seniade
Because there is obvs a guarantee that whoever wins it "deserves it" by every other merit than being the role that can make use of it... -
06-03-2018, 08:04 AMSeniadeThat can be taken both ways. The argument of giving priority back to the players that can equip it is personal spite for the player who won gear when not on a class that could currently equip it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyKaplan
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06-03-2018, 08:16 AMAwha
Sure a group is made up of individuals, but could an individual clear the content without a group? I mean sure in extreme cases it sucks to lose an item to a person that did a fraction of your dps and spent more time dead then alive. In my experience those cases were few and far in between, but I will not say they did not happen, and maybe for you they happened more frequently. I personally saw more people by the bypass the ilvl requirement, or play on classes they did not know to play simply cause they wanted to gear up a different class. Guess this boils down to which perspective / experience you prior to the change. I mean if I was lost a roll countless time to a dps that was dead most the run I probably would not like the change. Though I do like the change since I happened to run into more players trying bypass the ilvl requirement or playing on jobs they had no idea how to play cause they wanted the gear.
Is it a perfect system? No, but I personally like the idea of the group having an equal chance over some not even getting a chance to roll on something simply because the rng drop gods were not in their favor. Now everyone has the equal probability to get something at the end, sure overall the odds are lower per individual, and even if a group is comprised of individuals overall it was a group effort that allowed the content to be cleared. As I said I am an odd one though, since I view the clear as a group effort. Overall I do get where you are coming from though, I just feel the pros out way weigh the cons, and you clearly feel differently. -
06-03-2018, 08:48 AMPentheaWhile you are correct that the content cannot be soloed, this absolutely does not mean it can only be completed with equal and high contribution from all players. As a healer I spend a great deal of my time carrying other players in any remotely challenging alliance raids. I very regularly end up raising people in all three alliances as well as healing them. Very often I have to do far more than my fair share of work to ensure we don't wipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
The trade off used to be that while I played a role that forced me into the position of carrying others, I had less competition for loot. So I did that extra work mostly in silence, only speaking up if something made my task impossible. My increased luck for loot was enough for me to tolerate my experiences.
And now? Well I have done only one alliance raid since the patch. I spent my time raising and healing multiple alliances as usual, but I was particularly annoyed at the bard and smn in my alliance who often wouldn't stand close enough to get any healing no matter how many times I or the other healer nicely told them. Unsurprisingly they died a lot. The healer boots dropped...and the smn rolled on them. I won but I was still incredibly disgusted.
A dps who obviously hasn't a bloody clue about the basic requirements for receiving healing has the same priority on healing gear as the healers who carried their idiotic suicidal a**. Please tell me how this is remotely acceptable. -
06-03-2018, 09:23 AMAwhaIt is not fair, but it is acceptable since they were part of the party. Do not get me wrong sure it sucks, I have lost rolls on tank gear to DPS spent what seemed like half the raid kissing the floor. I was salty afterwards but that is the nature of the beast, since other players that rolled on the tank gear did perform their roles and I personally would not have had an issue if they had won over the floor tank. Which is why it seems off to me since in my eyes I personally would have been fine if another non tank gets the drops over one that I personal felt performed like worse then a monkey playing osu. I figured it is one of those things you take the good with the bad. I do understand your position, but I will always put the overall group first if any chance gives more players a chance to win something in a raid I will always be in favor of it even if a few bad apples can abuse it every so often.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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06-03-2018, 09:29 AMBourne_EndeavorThis was spread initially, but turned out to be somewhat misleading. Over in JP, the discussion is more divisive. Some believe you should go on your main to better guarantee a smooth run while others have similar opinions we do. Not sure what prompted the change if that's true though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahrze
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06-03-2018, 09:44 AMKisaiTenshiPut it this way. If you've gone the entire dungeon without rolling on something, every player is going to roll on all the end loot so they don't come away empty handed. The first time I played the Ridorana Lighthouse, I rolled on the first piece of healer gear that popped up and then won it. I then quickly checked if it was better than what I had... and it's the same i360 ilevel, so I was like "well that's disappointing, guess it's glamour" , as I already had i360 on all slots. So on the second time I ran it, same healer gear I rolled on last time came up, so I passed it. I passed on everything until a caster body gear came up and I thought about it for a minute, and decided that maybe someone who plays DPS more often would like it more and hit pass... Nobody rolled on it. I would have been fine taking that item, and not rolling on the tank leg gear at the end of that run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
Like, the problem with the weekly lockout without "need" is that players who actually want it, will lose a roll to players who maybe don't even play that job. On all other raids that do not have the lockout, you can no reason not to greed everything you want, because someone will certainly want it, even for seals/desynth. The developers should have removed being able to turn in for seals/desynth from the alliance raid gear along with the greed-only change so that players only greed on gear they want to wear or use for glamour. Or alternatively, allow like-for-like trades of gear via a NPC so that you only need to win any gear for that slot to exchange it for the gear you want.