Introduce a new tank and make dark knight DPS again

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

Can't we just get back the DRK 3.0?
There were less topic about the DRK during this time...

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Replace DRK threads with PLD threads and that was HW. It wasn't much different, just a different flavor of complaints.

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

Cuz ive mained it since it dropped in HW.....and played it almost exclusively since Ffxi's BETA many years ago...its been my main for over 10 years between 2 different mmos...Can u say the same?

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I looked at your gear on the Lodestone.
I looked at the first 2 pages of your achievements.
You have not done Fractal Hard, but you did clear Hell's Lid.
You cleared Alexander 4 normal mode a year ago (summer 2015 content).
You have not touched Midas Normal/Creator Normal/Deltascape Normal/Sigmascape Normal.
You do not do any extreme primals.

All of this tells me that you barely play the game - yet you say that you main DRK since it dropped. While there is nothing wrong with any of this, I don't think you are a person that is capable of making a judgement on the current state of DRK. Based upon your gear, even if you knew how to play DRK in a 70 dungeon, you would be KO in 10 seconds or less if you tried a yolo pull in Hell's Lid.

The aesthetic of a job isn't based on mechanics, but is still one of the most important factors. Mechanically speaking, very little is different about the tanks, and aesthetics are arguably the most defining part about it.

That said, there's nothing wrong with Dark's Aesthetic. It's pretty damn good right now, but it just doesn't reflect that in the way it plays.

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Originally Posted by Elixirboy

All of this tells me that you barely play the game - yet you say that you main DRK since it dropped. While there is nothing wrong with any of this, I don't think you are a person that is capable of making a judgement on the current state of DRK. Based upon your gear, even if you knew how to play DRK in a 70 dungeon, you would be KO in 10 seconds or less if you tried a yolo pull in Hell's Lid.

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AHAHAHA! Now that's quality research right there!

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Originally Posted by Saeno

Replace DRK threads with PLD threads and that was HW. It wasn't much different, just a different flavor of complaints.

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Can I be considering to be a negative player if I tell SE doesn't seem to learn the lesson?

I mean, there is only three tank in the game, I don't understand why they seem so similar and why everytime one is fixed, another is changed in a bad way...

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

Can I be considering to be a negative player if I tell SE doesn't seem to learn the lesson?

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I would say so because SE has done well to make tanks this expansion way more balanced than before. SB DRK isn't even remotely as bad as HW PLD.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

I mean, there is only three tank in the game, I don't understand why they seem so similar and why everytime one is fixed, another is changed in a bad way...

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Because they have one goal in mind with each patch in terms of role balance and sometimes they go overboard. The changes to DRK and WAR in 4.0 launch were extreme but WAR was fixed overtime and PLD was nerfed as needed. DRK hasn't received the attention it needed yet.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'd only go as far as saying that if SE does not substantially fix DRK then we are better off without it. That doesn't mean I think they should turn it in to a DPS (couldn't be that hard tbh, take off grit and remove enmity modifiers and it's 90% there) I just don't see how having a 3rd wheel gimpy ass tank benefits us as a community. It doesn't. Fix it or delete it.

#HotTakes

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Same could be said for PLD in 3.0 yet here we are. Things can be fixed, and once they are it's always a boon for the game.

Why not just make ALL jobs have red icons. Will y'all be happy then? >_>

wait, ppl thought pld 3.0 was trash? it was the easiest tank to play in raids
sure, dungeon content for pld was boring because your only aoe is an ogcd but being the tank class that can switch between offensive and defensive stance at any point of the fight was so good it made me hate grit
also the STR down on halone rotation

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

wait, ppl thought pld 3.0 was trash? it was the easiest tank to play in raids
sure, dungeon content for pld was boring because your only aoe is an ogcd but being the tank class that can switch between offensive and defensive stance at any point of the fight was so good it made me hate grit
also the STR down on halone rotation

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It's not that people thought it was trash as a whole; but from the perspective of its damage contribution to the party, it was definitely trash. The damage it brought compared to WAR and DRK was abysmal. Looking at your own parse pages in those tiers, even fights where you purpled on both WAR and PLD, your WAR clocked in anywhere between 200 and 300 DPS higher than your PLD, which is a pretty big difference for the time.

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

Seriously... just revert it back to the glory days of being a high dps job with blood attacks/dark magic and introduce a new tank altogether. Been disappointed with it since it was changed to a tank tbh. Please consider this

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http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/index.shtml

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

wait, ppl thought pld 3.0 was trash? it was the easiest tank to play in raids

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Yes, and PLD actually was hot garbage. It being easy to play is not a good or bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

sure, dungeon content for pld was boring because your only aoe is an ogcd but being the tank class that can switch between offensive and defensive stance at any point of the fight was so good it made me hate grit
also the STR down on halone rotation

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PLD in dungeons wasn't just boring, it's extraordinarily bad because of how little damage it did. Switching your tank and DPS stance on and off would be good if it didn't cost a GCD to do either. Activating Grit is the same as activating Shield oath, but DRK doesn't need to lose an additional GCD to go into DPS stance because for a DRK, being out of Grit is your DPS "stance". If anything, Grit should have made you dislike Shield oath/Sword oath more.

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Originally Posted by Saeno

PLD in dungeons wasn't just boring, it's extraordinarily bad because of how little damage it did. Switching your tank and DPS stance on and off would be good if it didn't cost a GCD to do either. Activating Grit is the same as activating Shield oath, but DRK doesn't need to lose an additional GCD to go into DPS stance because for a DRK, being out of Grit is your DPS "stance". If anything, Grit should have made you dislike Shield oath/Sword oath more.

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having a 20% mitigation on the gcd with just the penalty of losing a gcd (they actually fixed it because changing stances drops whatever combo you're currently in). meanwhile as i was a drk i was always hesitant to turn on grit for having the same % of mitigation but with much more mana cost that can cost me a +1 da or the darkness buff entirely

but enough about me de-railing. i just wanted to point out that the paladin of 3.0 wasnt as bad as the dark knight of 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

having a 20% mitigation on the gcd with just the penalty of losing a gcd (they actually fixed it because changing stances drops whatever combo you're currently in). meanwhile as i was a drk i was always hesitant to turn on grit for having the same % of mitigation but with much more mana cost that can cost me a +1 da or the darkness buff entirely

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I don't see why you would care about losing a Dark Arts when you want that 20% mitigation. As for losing Darkside, you generally should be hanging around 40-60% of your MP to avoid being in the position of not having any MP when you need it.

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

but enough about me de-railing. i just wanted to point out that the paladin of 3.0 wasnt as bad as the dark knight of 4.0.

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You're free to have your own opinion on things but man do I disagree with this one. PLD in 3.0 was ABYSMAL to put it nicely. DRK now can at least kill content without hampering the team too hard so long as slashing debuff is available to the PLD and DRK. PLD on the other hand was very bad to take into HW content since it meant you will also need to take a MNK for the INT down debuff, and that means no DRG/NIN comp.

what was the point of having a drg/nin comp if most of the monks on my server were on steroids
i honestly thought mnk was legit broken back then
i understand having the need for a drg because of the disembowel but for nin's TA, mch can easily make up for the loss
there were also fights where int downs werent that necessary. the entire midas savage raid favored str down over int down if we're talking mitigations. the only fight that i can think of that strictly required a drk was a12s

i look at the pld as if it's the easier go-to class not just for the player, but the entire party. easier to heal and has good raid utility. i often played with healers that were too scared to play with dark knights because they were "harder to sustain".
i didn't get into dark knight that much until the last set of savage floors just because of a12s

by the way, my server still favored war being the ST. idk about other worlds
so it's either drk or pld mt

drk as st is undoubtedly superior to pld in terms of dps. but if that was the case, paladins were free to clemency and divine veil whenever needed. they also can cast protect if the healers are tight on mp
oh and stoneskin

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

what was the point of having a drg/nin comp if most of the monks on my server were on steroids
i honestly thought mnk was legit broken back then

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DRG/NIN comp provides higher raid DPS than a MNK. MNK's personal damage does not even come close to the amount of damage either of the other melee brougth with their utility and own personal output.

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

i understand having the need for a drg because of the disembowel but for nin's TA, mch can easily make up for the loss
there were also fights where int downs werent that necessary. the entire midas savage raid favored str down over int down if we're talking mitigations. the only fight that i can think of that strictly required a drk was a12s

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You would still bring a MCH in the DRG/NIN comp so you could use both TA and Hyperdrive. As for the INT down, A1s, A3s, A4s, A6s, A7s, A8s, A10s, A11s and A12s all had high magic damage, some more than others but for the most part you definately wanted INT down. The only fight where PLD was ever really good was A9s since it had a lot of physical damage and the auto attacks HURT, but as it turned out, Plunge helped the DRK dodge a scrapline in the fight, giving it extreme value over PLD which could only replicate that with Hallowed Ground.

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

i look at the pld as if it's the easier go-to class not just for the player, but the entire party. easier to heal and has good raid utility. i often played with healers that were too scared to play with dark knights because they were "harder to sustain".
i didn't get into dark knight that much until the last set of savage floors just because of a12s

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PLD was not any easier to heal than WAR or DRK, you'd prboably need to heal more with a PLD since the party is now taking higher raid wide damage without INT down. As for utility, Divine Veil and Halone do not even scratch the effectiveness of Storms Path or Delirium/Reprisal. PLD very much lacked good raid utility. If a healer is afraid to heal a DRK, it should only be because of Living Dead. DRK on its own does not need any more healing than any other tank.

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

by the way, my server still favored war being the ST. idk about other worlds
so it's either drk or pld mt

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Anecdotes don't really help anyone's case. Regardless if you had a DRK or PLD, a WAR should always pull and the DRK or PLD should then provoke the boss to begin getting value from Reprisal/Blood price/Low blow and Shield Swipes.

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

drk as st is undoubtedly superior to pld in terms of dps. but if that was the case, paladins were free to clemency and divine veil whenever needed. they also can cast protect if the healers are tight on mp
oh and stoneskin

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DRK was never better than PLD at OT. DRK was actually pretty damn bad at OTing since they could not Reprisal effectively anymore and they also lost DPS from Low blows and Blood price. As for the healing issues, those things should never happen since there are TWO healers, not just one. If the healers are in such a bad spot that they need help from a PLD, something went very wrong. Even if a PLD chose to help the healers, it meant they lost DPS from casting those spells which is still very bad.

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Originally Posted by Luminarium

but enough about me de-railing. i just wanted to point out that the paladin of 3.0 wasnt as bad as the dark knight of 4.0.

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From my point of view, it's the complete opposite. DRK is a tiny bit behind PLD and WAR, but far from what PLD was in 3.X. Lots of people make it sound like DRK is trash-tier since 4.0.

Even in high-end content, I mitigate as much playing DRK and PLD, and deal comparable damage with both jobs. DRK isn't any squishier than PLD, but it lacks some tools that make PLD awesome (mostly, Cover and Intervention).

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Originally Posted by Megguido

From my point of view, it's the complete opposite. DRK is a tiny bit behind PLD and WAR, but far from what PLD was in 3.X. Lots of people make it sound like DRK is trash-tier since 4.0.

Even in high-end content, I mitigate as much playing DRK and PLD, and deal comparable damage with both jobs. DRK isn't any squishier than PLD, but it lacks some tools that make PLD awesome (mostly, Cover and Intervention).

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See, it's funny how yes technically you are mitigating the same amount. But lacking cover and intervention, as well as Hallowed's ability to just null some dots' application altogether leave it in a much better spot than DRK. I recently ran a God Kefka where our pug WAR had to re-learn a few mechanics for cheese just because you can get away with so much more with a PLD cotank than a DRK cotank, and his cotank in his static is a DRK.

It's like, DRK and PLD have basically the same number of toys, but PLD just has so many more genuinely useful toys.

#MakeDRKGreatAgain

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Originally Posted by Saeno

. As for the INT down, A1s, A3s, A4s, A6s, A7s, A8s, A10s, A11s and A12s all had high magic damage, some more than others but for the most part you definately wanted INT down.

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if it's raid-wide aoe damage the scholar's virus and succor were more than enough to mitigate the high magic damage. most tank busters were blockable physically.

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Originally Posted by Saeno

WAR should always pull and the DRK or PLD should then provoke the boss to begin getting value from Reprisal/Blood price/Low blow and Shield Swipes.

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warriors on my server would rather spend their first 5 stacks on a fellcleave rather than unchained. shirk wasnt there too


i gotta say i did forget about blood price being available without grit. i also miss reprisal having damage

1000 character limiiiit

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Originally Posted by Saeno

Because they have one goal in mind with each patch in terms of role balance and sometimes they go overboard. The changes to DRK and WAR in 4.0 launch were extreme but WAR was fixed overtime and PLD was nerfed as needed. DRK hasn't received the attention it needed yet.

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I just don't understand WHY they've changed so much the DRK since he was played by a good amount of players, which they liked it. Why changing something that people loved?

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

I just don't understand WHY they've changed so much the DRK since he was played by a good amount of players, which they liked it. Why changing something that people loved?

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I recall a number of people calling HW Dark Knight "Much more difficult" than the other tanks. People saying things along the line of "It has a really high APM requirement for a tank." and "The constant mana drain is stressful". I had the same feelings when I started playing DRK, but eventually came to really love it. Perhaps there were far more vocal people who held the Job in disdain than we were aware of, which prompted the changes in Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Otorinth

I recall a number of people calling HW Dark Knight "Much more difficult" than the other tanks. People saying things along the line of "It has a really high APM requirement for a tank." and "The constant mana drain is stressful". I had the same feelings when I started playing DRK, but eventually came to really love it. Perhaps there were far more vocal people who held the Job in disdain than we were aware of, which prompted the changes in Stormblood.

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Same experience with the DRK as yours, but it's very sad that people complaining about the one of the three tanks that needed really some training before mastering. I guess this is the way the game takes !
Glad there is other things to do beside this. And hope SE will do something about that !

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

See, it's funny how yes technically you are mitigating the same amount. But lacking cover and intervention, as well as Hallowed's ability to just null some dots' application altogether leave it in a much better spot than DRK. I recently ran a God Kefka where our pug WAR had to re-learn a few mechanics for cheese just because you can get away with so much more with a PLD cotank than a DRK cotank, and his cotank in his static is a DRK.

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PLD's "better" toys are much more visible than DRK's. Of course it's really helpful for the healers to Cover O7S prey markers, or Divine Veil during O8S skulls. Even the co-tank benefits from Cover + Tempered Will. Those are obviously great arguments in favor of PLD.

PLD has powerful defensive abilities on long cooldowns. As a DRK, I can Dark Mind + TBN every wings of destruction on O8S, which makes me take like 15k damage. DRK has two powerful mitigation abilities on short cooldowns. For that, PLD only has Sheltron, that only works for one hit. DRK can mitigate everything on demand, auto attacks, raid-wide AoE, tankbusters. Also, you say that PLD can null some DoTs application, like O8S hyperdrive, with Hallowed Ground. Did you consider that DRK can do it without much problems as well, with proper mitigation ? It needs more than a single ability, but said abilities aren't on a 7 minute cooldown either.

I agree with PLD being overall better than DRK. But the gab between those two is way smaller than it looks. Remember that it's not raid-wide mitigation that defines if a job is OP or not.

Pretty rude reply. Dark should be a dps as a well as a red mage should have more healing spells than just one. Seriously this Trinity system ( tank,dps,healer) really holds back jobs from their full lore pontential.

Also I've been playing ffxi for the first time and loving RDM on there more than ffxiv, it isn't just some BLM with one cure and a raise spell. I'm having more healing spells and support spells as well. Can't wait to get refresh yet. It actually feels like a RDM.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Pretty rude reply. Dark should be a dps as a well as a red mage should have more healing spells than just one. Seriously this Trinity system ( tank,dps,healer) really holds back jobs from their full lore pontential.

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numbers are not lore, skills and aesthetics are, ffxiv DRK have high defense and they combos are the most powerful among all the jobs so DRK fulfill all what make it a DRK with a slight change on sacrifice to dont make the job a suicidal emo, the percepcion on what should be a TANK and what should be a DPS its basicly slef opinions without arguments mostly bcs DPS players want everything be a DPS and in this game tanks dealt dps too and no a small one..

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

its not my fault i loved and enjoyed drk as a DPS for YEARS in ffxi...but again i dont expect any of the new crowd to understand. Carry on with this broken mess of a job and let me daydream about the glory days

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Sorry to say this, but you are living in a delusion where you thought DRK was good at NA release of FFXI. DRK suffered from needing high ACC to land Weapon Skills and the avg player couldn't afford the gear to be a halfway decent DRK.

If you got into any EXP parties as DRK then people were just desperate looking to fill the slots, but you weren't sought after.

"But DRK Endgame!": There weren't many Sky LS at RoZ and the ones that existed used RNG/BLM/SMN and the occasional MNK Chi Blast for DPS. It wasn't until a top tier Sky LS released a video of them speed killing Kirin with Souleater+Kraken Clubs that DRK became wanted and that was near the release of CoP.

So I don't really know what 'glory days' of DRK you're referring to.

I was going to respond to several things here esp the guy that looked up my profile and came to some magical conclusion that I don't play much (which btw I HATE prescript raiding hence why I haven't involved myself in it since 2015) but I realized what is the point....fact of the matter is this...yes they will never revert it to DPS u are likely right about that...however if they did ever consider it I was voicing that id love to see it DPS...I remember people being disappointed when the job was originally announced as a tank in the 1st place at fan fest so just because those people aren't here voicing that opinion doesn't mean that im the only one who feels this way. Plain and simple I stated my opinion, you guys obviously disagreed cuz you love this job in its current state which is shell of its former self thru several FF's which is fine but don't hate on the fact that some people disagree with its current implementation.

Dark Knight (暗黒騎士, Ankoku Kishi?, lit. “Darkness Knight”) is a special job class that appears in several games in the series.

The Dark Knight is characterized by wearing tight, sometimes enclosed black armor and wielding a sword steeped in wicked powers. Their physical stats, with exception of Defense, are usually high, but their other stats depend on the game they appear in. The typical Dark Knight ability is Souleater, also known as Darkness, which allows them to sacrifice their HP to perform stronger attacks.

Souleater is not exclusive to the Dark Knight class, however. Dark Knights may also have abilities based on blood equipment, which allows them to absorb HP and MP from enemies. The Dark Knight is opposed by the Paladin, holy knights who protect allies and wield sacred powers. Unlike many classes, Dark Knights bear a signature weapon, the Deathbringer, which has a chance to kill certain enemies in a single blow.


Dark Knight
Appearances: FF2, FF3, FF4, FFX-2, FF11, FF Tactics
Aliases: None

The Dark Knight's look originated from the FF3 M. Knight, which ironically had white magic (see below). It is characterized by a predilection towards dark combat. Like a knight, this class focuses on strength-based attacks, but also uses black magic to harm the enemy, though this leaves its defense low. One of its most distinguishing characteristics is DarkWave (a.k.a. Darkness), an ability which sacrifices the character's HP in order to do more damage.

Dark Knight

Available after completing Blade of Darkness. Dark Knights (DRK) are powerful damage dealers who have the capability to further their damage by using select Black Magic spells. Dark Knights are melee damage dealers specializing in the use of Great Swords and Scythes. While they have a respectable rating in Elemental Magic, the bulk of their magic usage comes from casting Dark Magic spells.


So yes, say what you want....but this job was known to MANY people in the past for its DPS potential.......period

Glory days = http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Knight

People probably would have responded better if you actually provided some concrete concept rather than "Make it like 11"

DRK already sucks as a tank with it's own slowness and personal dps, so changing it to a DPS won't really make a difference. FFXI's DRK was badass as DPS, but in FFXIV, they completely ruined the thrill I had with it in FFXI. Swinging a great sword as DRK in this game is so slow it's like a kid trying to pick up a heavy rock and struggling to throw it.

But regardless, Yoshi-Pee wanted it to be tank and that's what we got. I'm not happy with that but there's nothing we can do about it. Outside of PLD (as a traditional tank) the other tanks suck hard as tanks but are great (WAR) at DPS'ing. Tanking in this game is boring in general lol but that's imo. ^_-

i don't think balancing issues with the current DRK should be a reason to make him a DPS.

when we would dump any tank into trash when there are balancing problems we wouldn't have any tanks anymore. 2.0 WAR, 3.0 PLD, 4.0 DRK...
DRK needs a proper rework, but changing the role of an established job is a huge f word to the people playing that job. DRK was an awesome tank in 3.0, i see no reason why DRK can't be an awesome tank again.

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

snip

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you know Big hits its dont translated to DPS specialist? And in most ff games DRK being outclades by other Jobs when you unlock It, cecil the oficial representation of DRK was directly a tank, kain, ridya, tella, yang and porom surpass Cecil on damage but no on defense.
In this Game tanks dealt damage And a good one, this is no WoW or ffxi where tank damage is extremly low so dont come with DRK is a shadow of himself whem DRK was never a end Game job

Damn, that wiki article.

As cool as it would be, do you have any idea how terrible it would be in this game if a tank-no ANY job had an ability that used HP as a resource? Imagine a DRK Dark Art'sing and getting killed because they took a 1/4th of their HP? You would be the ultimate pain in the ass to heal, even if they jacked up your self recovery. Theres a reason why all their abilities interact with their MP instead of HP. And before you say "err XI did it", XI is a different and slower game than XIV. The whole HP thing wouldn't work at all.

Also, I heard XI was terribly unbalanced, so that shouldn't be a benchmark for anything.

DRK was a tank in FF Dimensions. It had a skill that was tantamount to Ultimatum.

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Originally Posted by SiriusSaltstice

Damn, that wiki article.

As cool as it would be, do you have any idea how terrible it would be in this game if a tank-no ANY job had an ability that used HP as a resource? Imagine a DRK Dark Art'sing and getting killed because they took a 1/4th of their HP? You would be the ultimate pain in the ass to heal, even if they jacked up your self recovery. Theres a reason why all their abilities interact with their MP instead of HP. And before you say "err XI did it", XI is a different and slower game than XIV. The whole HP thing wouldn't work at all.

Also, I heard XI was terribly unbalanced, so that shouldn't be a benchmark for anything.

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I understand your points truly...I realize DPS is a pipe dream based on the way it has already been implemented in this game. It would just be nice to get some of that feeling back. For ex. pld seems somewhat close to some of the mechanics it had in 11. They even have white magic with clemency and a white magic DD spell with holy spirit. Why cant we get some black magic like drain Bio etc?

I mean the topic is asinine, no argument over that. Also some circle jerking for ff11 which this game is quite is the opposite of.

However if you think about it it makes for intressting point. Because of how weapon locked and their for jobs in this game are alot of people are gonna be screwed. And dont kid yourself, people choose because of visual flavor 90% of the time which class they are gonna play. So maybe it be worth a thougth from the design team to introdcude somthing like a spec instead of new class

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

I mean the topic is asinine, no argument over that. Also some circle jerking for ff11 which this game is quite is the opposite of.

However if you think about it it makes for intressting point. Because of how weapon locked and their for jobs in this game are alot of people are gonna be screwed. And dont kid yourself, people choose because of visual flavor 90% of the time which class they are gonna play. So maybe it be worth a thougth from the design team to introdcude somthing like a spec instead of new class

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To be honest, I would 100% be in favor of a DPS spec or a spec system in general. It would just be nice to have options. I'd be lying If said I wasnt on the edge my seat anxiously awaiting Yoshi p to announce drk only to be utterly disappointed when the word tank popped up.

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

Their physical stats, with exception of Defense, are usually high, *but their other stats depend on the game they appear in.*

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You countered yourself in your first paragraph.