I never said you, specifically, were bad. I was just saying that a reliance on tenacity is a bit weird, and shows the healers lack of skill or confidence. Healing is so ridiculously potent and damage is so low that tenacity should make barely a difference, if it makes any difference at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ametrine
About wanting to deal high damage - just play a dps:
I want to be a healer, but I also want to push myself to do the most I possibly can. Since healing is such an easy job I fill in the space with damage. If I had to heal my ass off all the time I would maximize my healing just like I do with my dps.
I can do with with bad tanks and with good tanks, regardless of what their secondary stats look like. With a good tank l yes I will be able to DPS more, but I have never seen an actual tie between my dps and the amount of tenacity a tank has. CD rotations are the most important mitigation tools a tank has, so with a proper rotation any half decent tank (in half decent equipment) is a breeze to heal.
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03-02-2018, 09:02 AMVanilleFang
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03-02-2018, 09:49 AMFynlarTrying to compare a competent tank in DH gear with an idiot in tenacity gear is not really making a fair argument for DH.Quote:
Let me use expert here really quick. I've had 340's in full DH/STR melding be so much easier to keep alive than full 350 tanks that went all Tenacity. Why? Because the 340 used cooldowns and didn't stand in every last thing in the game.
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03-02-2018, 02:23 PMBacentAnd? It was something that was actually brought up in the live letter, and if one person has those thoughts, who is to say that some people in other regions have that same thoughts? I'm more curious into why you think it'd 'just' be limited to Japanese players.Quote:
Originally Posted by alimdia
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03-02-2018, 08:52 PMTridusThis would probably be better spun off into its own thread. What the game is now is one thing, and what we'd like it to be in 5.0 (the next time an overhaul large enough to change this could realistically happen) are different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ametrine
Wanting a more defensive focused game in 5.0 is great, but it doesn't really fit into a thread about banning tanks from using DH now, as right now that's just a band aid that does nothing to address the reason why people are doing that. -
03-02-2018, 09:20 PMAwhaSo you want less people to play tanks? Gotcha. Since it seems as if you are not happy with the current DPS focused meta which is fair, I suspect though if SE forced a more defensive play style by the removal of stats many tanks would simply not play tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ametrine
Though even if they remove DH which I think currently only PLD melds DH the other two meld crit if I am not mistaken, been out of the tanking loop. So not sure what the removal of DH would accomplish. -
03-02-2018, 09:33 PMFredco191Your friends with a guy who seems to be the ultimate guardian? I would be amazed too if I were friends with that guy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ametrine
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03-02-2018, 09:38 PMFynlarLet's be real here:Quote:
So you want less people to play tanks? Gotcha. Since it seems as if you are not happy with the current DPS focused meta which is fair, I suspect though if SE forced a more defensive play style by the removal of stats many tanks would simply not play tank.
1) tanks are already the hardest to come by of the three roles
2) anyone who was really obsessed with outputting as much damage as possible would play... a DPS job.
I'm sure the primary reason a lot of them play tank is for the faster queues and "ins" on content, and this would not change if they forced tanks to be more turtley. -
03-02-2018, 09:44 PMCommander_JustitiaIf you look at some statistics, tanks do about 80% of the damage a damage dealer deals. I really don't like that trend that you depend on healer and tank dps more and more to clear fights. Dps could have more damage for the loss of tank/healer damage...That are their "roles" after all...1 dead dps and then warrior will be over you in dps for the rest of the fight... We are getting close to the point where you can run with 7 warriors and be totally fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
They could also change that all tank damages is derived from vitality instead of strength, while increasing the vitality damage modifier to compensate. Would stop excessive overmelding costs and substat question for rightside at least altogether. -
03-02-2018, 09:46 PMAwhaWhile anecdotal most of the tanks and healers that I know enjoy the role in FFXIV while despise the role in other games simply because they enjoy the DPS aspect. Granted I am sure the faster queues are bonus, I do wonder how many tanks would stick around if they were forced into a turtle play style outside of prog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
What is wrong with a tank or healer being able to contribute meaningful damage while still performing their primary role?Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia
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03-02-2018, 09:53 PMCommander_JustitiaYou could make the stances permanent in combat, similar to WoW where you have the talentsystem with a dps and tank warrior. But people love their overpowered ability to switch between tank and dps build instantly/few secs hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Awha
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03-02-2018, 09:57 PMHoodRatFixed it for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia
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03-02-2018, 10:02 PMTridusAnd people who do like it in other games don't like it here for the same reason. It hasn't significantly changed the proportions, treating tanks like blue DPS still leaves us with not enough of them and needing further incentives to get people to play the role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
The experience of other MMOs suggests this fear is pretty strongly overblown. If players had to use tank stance and defensive stats more often, they would adapt. It's not like that leaves you standing around doing nothing the entire fight. -
03-02-2018, 10:12 PMAwhaThat is the thing currently players have a choice, while it is true people in the community tend to focus solely on dps meta it is not required to clear content. If they force a more defensive play style that is removing the choice we currently have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
Right now players have a choice one style is preferred by the community over another, nevertheless the choice still exists. Sure in FFXIV the extra defense stats are far from needed, but that does not mean if a player who prefers such a play style is unable to play in such a way. It seems as what people really want is the Dps tank play style to be removed, or at the very least that is what I gather. -
03-02-2018, 10:41 PMTridusBy that logic, healers have a choice too:you can choose to stand around doing nothing lots of the time. One of these choices is clearly wrong, but you can still make it and clear lots of content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
The only real choice here is to optimize or not. If you're optimizing a tank, you're doing it for damage, because that's where the optimization is. If you're not optimizing... then you can do whatever you want. Which is still true in games with a more defensive mindset, and would be true here too if you actually had to use Shield Oath regularly on bosses.
It's not like all those DPS buttons tanks have would go away if they had to put any focus on defense and enmity. The main thing that would actually change is numbers would get smaller because more effort would have to be directed into doing the "tank" part of the tank role. That's about it.Quote:
Right now players have a choice one style is preferred by the community over another, nevertheless the choice still exists. Sure in FFXIV the extra defense stats are far from needed, but that does not mean if a player who prefers such a play style is unable to play in such a way. It seems as what people really want is the Dps tank play style to be removed, or at the very least that is what I gather.
Spending an entire fight in Sword Oath is hardly a "stylistic choice". You do it because it works better than the alternative. If Shield Oath was suddenly better than the alternative, people would use that and some defensive melds instead and otherwise be mostly hitting the same buttons, thus having the same style.
Strictly speaking, if incoming damage was so much harder to mitigate that tank stance was usually necessary, and Tenacity gave you enough defense for a skilled player to be able to drop tank stance sometimes, Tenacity would become very appealing to the DPS minded tank players precisely because it'd enable them to use DPS stance more often. To me, that's a far more interesting game design than "all DPS stuff, all the time", because how much do you need, when can you swap, and how far on the edge can you get before your healers can't save you?
That's an interesting choice. When even I (as an occasional and not terribly good PLD) don't need more defense most of the time, where does that put the actual skilled tanks? There's no real choice there at all, just the illusion of choice. -
03-02-2018, 11:11 PMNedkel
I was always thinking how much direct hit chance is possible to get on a tank?
10-20%?
And were there any actual tests of this thing by how the RNG really works on that one?
In some games, the rng increase your chances of triggering some effect if it did happen in few tries.
Arent the crit rate supossed to be better at like 3300 points?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niraye
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03-02-2018, 11:19 PMAwhaIt is not the illusion of choice, you either have the choice optimize or not. I do not think either style is right or wrong, one is more preferable but does not make it right. If someone wants to play as a ice mage and they can find a group that is willing to deal with it and they are having fun who am I to say they are wrong. Though this is for another topic, I personally feel it can clear the content who am I to judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
You are right if tank stats were consider optimal I personally would try and use as few defensive stats as possible and try to avoid tank stance a much as humanly possible even if the optimal style preferred favors as more defensive play style. I would make the choice to not be optimal, and will go through the lengths to find players that are okay with it. Realistic speaking it would be nice if we had a reason to stance dance instead of sitting in one stance 99.9% of the encounter. I personally feel that is not the route SE would go, they would simply go down the easier route of nerfing the offensive capabilities of the tank classes. At that point we are just moving the goal post to favor one over the other.
It would be nice if tanks and healers for that matter had a style of play that pleased every style of play in a spectrum, I just do not see it happening since any offensive capabilities granted will be broken down that the optimal play will result in the quicker clear time, which properly would mean everyone doing as much damage as humanly possible. After a few weeks we might find ourselves in the current situation we are in right now, outside of making defensive stats necessary to clearly content I do not see them being optimal for long since once players find the limits they will slowly start to remove the defensive stats in favor of more DPS.
Outside of increasing income damage as you said, remove most of the enmity tools provided, and make not only enmity generation but maintaining it harder I do not see the community sticking with a defensive meta. People will find the limitations push them till they are no longer limitations which then will become the meta. Though you are right DPS mindset players will use just enough stats to survive the incoming damage, I just do not see what will change since that style of play will become the norm like it is now. They would have to go rethink how they handle encounters as a whole since as long as most damage outside tank busters is not threatening, and enmity is a joke tank stance will be less desirable. -
03-03-2018, 01:06 AMBacentThey used to have Tank attack was based between vit and str stats, meaning any food that gave a vit bonus was powering tanks up a bit more than any other class was getting. They had to scrap the idea because of the increasing amount of vit on things was making tanks a bit too powerful quicker than they wanted from what I remember.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia
Also if it was based off of Vit instead of Str, my attack power would be going up by nearly 600. I have 2255 strength as a tank right now, but I also have 2847 vit as well. That's 592 points difference. If you 'increased the vit damage modifier', then that's even more attack power.
To go off of my FC leader's Dragoon str, she has 2672 Str, meaning my base attack power would be much higher than her's.
This is something really finicky to work with, and would take a lot of discussions between players and SE staff to find some kind of middle ground that more people are happy with. -
03-03-2018, 01:21 AMCommander_JustitiaQuote:
Originally Posted by Bacent
-> "while increasing the vitality damage modifier to compensate. "
The values can be changed they did it before, tank is the only class who profits with more vitality atm, it wouldn't affect any other class. Maybe you didnt get me right at first comment, I would delete strength for tanks and just let it be vitality and that's why I would increase it again to acceptable levels. I wouldn't increase it with strength scaling still intact xD
It's just the last tiers tanks always have to use crafting accessiorces with overmelds for BiS, its a bit unfair. And they would have prevented that thing that tanks run in dps accesoirces for the first raid tier in stormblood instead of adding extra strength on any new item now to make them more desirable. They didn't actually plan to have tanks with those extra stats, that's why I think tankdmg in general should be nerfed 10-20% while dps classes go up same values. But difficult to balance now such major changes, would be stuff for 5.0... -
03-03-2018, 02:31 AMBacentNo, I had you right, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I said the OLD system we had during 3.X was a mix of Str/Vit. Never did I say you were suggesting a mix of those. I gave my current Str and Vit values. There's almost 600 points difference. If you suddenly ignore str and go off of vit, and then increase the modifier, tanks would be doing MUCH more damage than they are right now, no matter if they had Direct Hit melded or whatever. My attack power would skyrocket to 2847 without that 'vit damage modifier' like you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia
Also saying 'Tanks are the only class who profits off of vit' is a hugely false statement. Many DPS/Healers have vit melded for raiding because they need that extra HP to survive some of the multi raid wide hits back to back, and having those points increases the chance of you not being dead and doing zero DPS. You have 41000+ HP as your dragoon with your current gear, but not everyone has that much HP when they go to raid, so the vit melds help.
It's also only the OT who doesn't have their damage nerfed, since they don't have tank stance up. The MT will always be doing much less damage, and on occasion with the OT as well in the case of Sigmascape 3 Savage, since mini-bosses appear in it -
03-03-2018, 06:36 AMCommander_JustitiaSigh they switched tank stats so often that I mixed it up, still thought both stats count atm maybe because of warrior who benefits from higher HP for some skills idk. Still with that in mind you know why I wrote that no other class profits so much from vit than tanks, it was the damage factor, its obvious that you need vitality sometimes melded as damage dealer but no other class ever got it as an dmg increase. I am not sure why you had to understand that in such a general context when we are talking about something very specific here -_- My fisher profits from vitality too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacent
My point still stands though lol, they can use only 1 stat -> vitality to determine the dmg output/ attack power...It's not that difficult to find formulas that align very close to the existing ones, even if their are big gaps in the total stats you seem to worry about.
Another way would be that only vitality would be allowed for melding in the mainstat slot. Which tanks couldn't meld then at all because it's their primary mainstat on accessories. Which would be fine, because I don't think that tanks are happy with having to craft 4-5 pieces every raid tier and overmelding for the best set. Best item should be savage raids or upgraded tomestone item.
Okay... lets turn the numbers then, a very good warrior does around 75% of a very good Ninja, Bard, Redmage, Dragoon and Machinist dmg output.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoodRat
->The potential difference between a good war(or war with slightly better gear) and a midcore damage dealer are very slim. Again... why play damage dealer then, a few more war's in a group means more mechanic cheese and less dying by 1 shot dd mechanics. -
03-03-2018, 07:49 AMAmetrineAmusingly (or not), doing pre-made instances with just tanks, just healers, just RDM or SMN is a pretty common silly challenge players do often. Competent players can completely bypass the holy trinity system if they really want to, but these particular jobs have skills that allow for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia
RDM is powerful enough to do stuff like solo all 200 floors of PotD with an expert player behind it.... but it's simultaneously pushed out by meta once you hit farm.