Warrior is OP

Yeah, PLD aoe dps and threat is super weak even compared to DRK because sword oath only affects single target dps.
WAR has great AoE, burst, defense, two self heals and their raid cooldown is only 90 second CD.
Im not sure why SE is so clearly playing favorites with WAR.
It is quite frustrating though.

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm playing the same game as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

The problem though was that they kept WAR's damage capabilities intact and didn't trim them to compensate for the boost in defense that they got, which made them arguably just as good defensively as PLD but also able to do noticeably more damage too if played well.
I still remember when I pointed this out way back then being told "that's the way it should be" and "WAR should be better because it is the tank for skilled players while PLD is the easy tank".

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ARR PLD in Sword Oath outdpsed WAR even in 2.5.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Fast forward a few years and well we see where we have ended up, where WAR has to be the big damage tank with just as good defense that also needs good party utility but can't be too hard or complicated to play. The all singing, all dancing Fell-Cleavers of the world.

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Stormblood PLD is a "big damage tank with just as good defense that also has good party utility and isn't hard to play". You're ignoring how strong that job is (and it's still great even after the 4.2 DPS nerf) and claiming that WAR players want to be the best instead of wanting to be as good as PLD. I don't see how people could think even 4.1 WAR was balanced with PLD when PLD had very similar DPS, tons more utility and great mitigation from the block changes in 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Launched

tons more utility

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Passage and Cover are really situational in use. Divine Veil still requires a heal to be used, and even then it does not affect the PLD. Clemency is a straight DPS loss if you use it. The utility PLD has becomes useful in a pinch and shines when it does, but it says a lot when Shake It Off alone competes with all that utility. It's like the Vengeance vs Sentinel argument; sure Sentinel MITIGATES more, but that extra mitigation is not worth the extra time it needs on cooldown. Shake it Off is useful in all regards, because it is easier to activate, more frequent and affects everyone; there isn't a case where you don't want to use it.

I agree with you on the damage problem PLD had, and the job is still great now. But people really hype up all that utility and overestimate it.

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Originally Posted by SiriusSaltstice

Passage and Cover are really situational in use. Divine Veil still requires a heal to be used, and even then it does not affect the PLD. Clemency is a straight DPS loss if you use it. The utility PLD has becomes useful in a pinch and shines when it does, but it says a lot when Shake It Off alone competes with all that utility. It's like the Vengeance vs Sentinel argument; sure Sentinel MITIGATES more, but that extra mitigation is not worth the extra time it needs on cooldown. Shake it Off is useful in all regards, because it is easier to activate, more frequent and affects everyone; there isn't a case where you don't want to use it.

I agree with you on the damage problem PLD had, and the job is still great now. But people really hype up all that utility and overestimate it.

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The utility that PLD is good DV is great and there DPS is good now. Now War is great when you pop IR. But my gut feeling is that it will get nerfed, especially since if you run a dungeon my gosh it's deadly when you grab large packs.

That's my fear. They nerfed AOE for everyone without saying it but clearly it was to slow down dungeon pace. But I think they did not see the impact of the changes on directcrit decimation spam cause they had ST in mind when adjusting, and AOE wise thought only about steel cyclone (hence the small nerf of it's HP effect).

I mean going in the new dungeons at ilvl 325 (subjobs) with a War, a BLM and a SMN and the packs MELTED like even in previous dungeons (desingned for even lower ilvl) it didn't. Imagine what it'll be when we'll be i370...
When they see that, I don't know how they'll react.

Wars are not op. IR is up every 90 seconds so it won't be up every big trash pull and every boss in a dungeon. Nor does it line up with raid buffs all the time or every 2 minutes, like it used to. War is not dumbed down, it became more versatile in game play. Before it had a very strict rotation and you could never
Stray from it or go into defiance without obliterating your dps. Now wars have more freedom with a little more power and it's not a cookie cutter, increase dmg or potency, buff. War has a great new identity from the other tanks, the crit tank. Pld is in a great spot and so is war. I liked the old 4.1 war, but I love the new 4.2 war.

This is ridiculous, SE should really fix their game, because its really unplayable at this point.

Why does my warrior pull out less damage than DPS is beyond my mind, my class need more damage, aha and paladin cover is op spell, nerf it. Buff warrior or i will never play a tank again!

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Originally Posted by Schrute

Nor does it line up with raid buffs all the time or every 2 minutes.

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I see this argument a lot and I wonder: If Thrill still affects damage, and the CD for Thrill is 2 minutes, is it not wise to wait for Thrill and therefore align with party buffs as well?

Thrill only affects upheaval. So one attack aligns with the 2 minute raid buffs. If you're using upheaval on cd it will be up for raid buffs at the two minute mark but will you hold thrill for this or will you stack it with IR for the direct crit?

Shouldn't you be able to IR after you applied your storm's Eye buff? That's around 5 GCD which should align with Trick and every other Buffs.

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Originally Posted by ULoki

Shouldn't you be able to IR after you applied your storm's Eye buff? That's around 5 GCD which should align with Trick and every other Buffs.

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Yes, this is for the opener. Trick is on 60 second cd, IR is on 90 seconds.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm playing the same game as everyone else.

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Mind going into this a bit more? Just so I know what you're referencing.

well i often see a warrior finish first or second in dps when they are in OT, it's not normal...

if the tank deal more damage than dps, why bring dps?

If a dps can't outdps a tank, why bring him in the first place?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

well i often see a warrior finish first or second in dps when they are in OT, it's not normal...

if the tank deal more damage than dps, why bring dps?

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Nah, that's skill disparity. A skilled tank can outdps bad or mediocre dps players.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

well i often see a warrior finish first or second in dps when they are in OT, it's not normal...

if the tank deal more damage than dps, why bring dps?

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Unfortunately, more often than not people in DF aren't super good. I suppose your warrior was one of the only party members who knew how to play their job properly.

Edit: ninja'd by Erin, but point still stands

then the fact that a warrior in OT can reach 4200 dps on a whole fight is skill disparity, when as monk even if i'm not top stuff i'm at best (when i can stay the whole fight on the boss) i'm at 4200 dps... even if the tank is top stuff (what is at best 350 + a few 370 piece) that still insane

Pretty normal for me, do remember that the usual top numbers were 3k7-3k9 dps for tanks, so if he had some new pieces and crafted accessories, it's really not that crazy

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

then the fact that a warrior in OT can reach 4200 dps on a whole fight is skill disparity, when as monk even if i'm not top stuff i'm at best (when i can stay the whole fight on the boss) i'm at 4200 dps... even if the tank is top stuff (what is at best 350 + a few 370 piece) that still insane

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Leveling content doesn’t really seem balanced. I know red Mage and other classes felt super powerful in the leveling process even though at level 70 they ended lower.

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Originally Posted by InnerBeastMode

I see this argument a lot and I wonder: If Thrill still affects damage, and the CD for Thrill is 2 minutes, is it not wise to wait for Thrill and therefore align with party buffs as well?

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Generally, no you don't ever want to wait for raid buffs.

Example: Waiting a whole 30 seconds from 90-120. Over a 6 min:
Using on CD you get 4 uses of IR at 1.5, 3, 4.5, 6 min. 4x IR. 2x align with 120sec buffs.
Using on 120 sec you get 3 uses. 2, 4, 6 min. 3x IR. 3x align with 120 sec buffs.

(were ignoring the opener at 0 because everyone always gets that no matter what).

If you notice, you trade off TWO unbuffed IRs to get ONE with a little boost of 10% (or whatever % buff you are aligning with). 200% iR (2 uses) vs 1 use at 100%+X% where X is the buff. That's a terrible trade.

The simpler way to think about 'should I hold a skill for a buff' is as a % of the timer. Think of it this way. 9 seconds is 10% of the CD on IR. Every 9 sec you wait you are delay the NEXT IR by 10%. Lowering the effectiveness of the skill by 10%. Delaying it by 30 sec means you lost 33% of the CD so you lost 33% of an entire IR. Is that buff from waiting bigger than 33%? If the answer is yes, then wait. If no, then don't.

Practical example:
Eye buff (10% damage) just fell off. Upheaval is up. Do you wait 7.5 sec to do an Eye combo then upheaval, or just upheaval right now? Upheaval is a 30sec CD. 7.5 sec is 25% of 30 sec so waiting 'wastes' 25% of an upheaval. But waiting also gives your upheaval 10% more damage. 25%>10% so go ahead and use it without Eye. Its a damage gain.

Twist:
Same deal, but you just used maim. Do you upheaval now or wait 2.5 sec for Eye buff? 2.5sec is only 8.3% of upheavals CD so you are giving up 8.3% of an upheaval to gain 10% damage. Wait the 1 gcd for the buff. Its a damage gain to wait.

You can apply that logic to every CD in the game. Time is a resource and sitting on CDs wastes that resource.

Every moment you sit on a CD is pushing the next use farther away. Imagine just not hitting the next piece of your GCD combo for 5 sec to wait for a raid buff. That's silly. You are delaying your GCDs for a 5-10% buff? No. Just use them on cooldown. Buffs are the exact same thing just longer than 2.5 sec, but the principle is the same.

If you're under the impression that Warrior does more damage than a dps, you've clearly not been around dps playing their job right. YES Warrior's opening burst is insane and sustained DPS when not forced to switch stances is high, but if I were to set the ilv of a whole party to i350-i355 the warrior would optimally pull between 4k-4.2k dps while the dps should be pulling 5.5-6k dps in a 3-5 minute fight easily, 3.8-4kdps on war and 5k+ for dps in a 8+ minute fight.

All that said, Why SE changed warrior at all (not to mention nerfing paladin) instead of focusing on DRK is beyond my comprehension.

War's opening spike is cray. All last night I was #1 or #2 on during the opener section of every pull in my static (ie not trashy DF DPS players). But that drops REAL fast. Our burst is only 10 sec. Most other jobs are 20-30 second opener and maintain that high dps when War falls off hard after 10 sec. Then we piddle around for another 80 sec in sad land. Rinse and repeat. Sure in the 1st 15 sec war is rivaling dps, but that doesn't mean anything when all fights are ~10 minutes long and war settles right into standard tank level damage.

Tanks have ALWAYS been able to beat dps when the tank is good+geared and DPS is bad, undergeared, or both. In other groundbreaking news, a level 70 tank is stronger than a lv 50 dps. /Gasp! Ilvl and skill matters!!!

If skill/gear are anywhere near even the DPS shreds any tank for the duration of a fight. If you cant beat a tank, you are dramatically worse than the tank you lost to. The end.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Leveling content doesn’t really seem balanced. I know red Mage and other classes felt super powerful in the leveling process even though at level 70 they ended lower.

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it was sigmascape and for info my monk is 70 i336

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8_11-45-45.png

i'm not the best of the best, but my dps stay constant between 3800-4200 depending of the fight.

Yes, I agree. Warrior DPS is just way too good. I shouldn't be landing second or even first highest DPS in the Sigmascape Normal raids. The fact that I'm doing more damage than half the DPS at the end of the raid is clearly due to the fact that Warrior is overpowered, and not because the DPS have no idea what they're doing.

im starting to belive WAR burst is pretty op too, meaby not overall dps but the burst is damm insane, the way is the only tank who can skip ghost phase on phantom train is gamebreaking, not only that, even if SE cap that mechanic to make us go inside no matter what WAR is still the only tank who can skip the ghost tb.

in resume any tank dps check or dps check in general WAR have a huge advantage compared to the other 2 on top of the superiority of the other fields.

Congratulations. You mentioned the only situation in the entire game EVER where burst DPS actually counts for something. You want a cookie?

It doesn't matter how high their burst DPS is, because no fight lasts less than 5 minutes, meaning they eventually fall off and their DPS becomes similar to the other tanks.

Trying to skip ghost in O5S is somewhat stretching things. It is by no means necessary, and the advantage you gain by doing that is marginal. This isn't like tank LBing Byakko. In fact, it's almost borderline lazy. "Oh, but the DPS gain..." You mean the DPS you gain from wasting the Warrior's biggest and ONLY high damage window on something that won't even affect that boss' HP? Yay, you skipped ghosts! Warrior also lost the potential to do over 100k damage to the boss. Not to mention the risk of your loafing screen taking longer than usual, causing a wipe. But yeah, by all means, keep on skipping ghosts.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

snip.

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i dint remember being rude, but ok.

i say they burst is pretty op not the overall dps, actual WAR is 300 dps over DRK but thats DRK problem.

as we all know the value of burst its higher that sustained dps so thats make WAR being the only tank with less chances to screew up due they burst is huge but extremly short so isnt affected by mechanics like others in a bizarre way.

so no, any mechanic with involve adds of somekind the burst dps have a huge value due this will mean dps waste less time on it and spend more time on bosses, apart other mechanics with dps checks on it with are almost every fight in this game.

ghost mechanic is just a example how SE dint predict this and end with WAR being the only job capable to skip a entire mechanic by the face.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

it was sigmascape and for info my monk is 70 i336

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8_11-45-45.png

i'm not the best of the best, but my dps stay constant between 3800-4200 depending of the fight.

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Ah your display says you are level 64. I’m guessing this is an alt? Regardless, people don’t have to learn how to play their class well, there is no reason a tank should out dps an equally geared dps other than skill level. Warrior has a high starting burst but that should quickly fall off.

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Originally Posted by shao32

i dint remember being rude, but ok.

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He's coming off as rude because he believes you are attacking WAR and feels WAR's burst should go towards the bosses HP. Which honestly if you know the mechanics and pushing that phase gets a faster clear it's a win win in my book.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

He's coming off as rude because he believes you are attacking WAR and feels WAR's burst should go towards the bosses HP. Which honestly if you know the mechanics and pushing that phase gets a faster clear it's a win win in my book.

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yup, raid dps on the boss is more important that you personal dps.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Congratulations. You mentioned the only situation in the entire game EVER where burst DPS actually counts for something. You want a cookie?

Trying to skip ghost in O5S is somewhat stretching things. It is by no means necessary, and the advantage you gain by doing that is marginal. This isn't like tank LBing Byakko. In fact, it's almost borderline lazy. "Oh, but the DPS gain..." You mean the DPS you gain from wasting the Warrior's biggest and ONLY high damage window on something that won't even affect that boss' HP? Yay, you skipped ghosts! Warrior also lost the potential to do over 100k damage to the boss. Not to mention the risk of your loafing screen taking longer than usual, causing a wipe. But yeah, by all means, keep on skipping ghosts.

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Your post is too salty for who clearly did not understand the mech you are talking about. You just forgot to think about the dps gain of 7 other people who would be able to hit the boss a lot earlier. And I'm not even taking in account the gain healers would have for not bringing in Esuna and the other tank for not needing to spend mitigations against his ghost.

But I guess it doesn't matter anymore since it seems to be patched now.

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Originally Posted by Xan_Kriegor

Your post is too salty for who clearly did not understand the mech you are talking about. You just forgot to think about the dps gain of 7 other people who would be able to hit the boss a lot earlier. And I'm not even taking in account the gain healers would have for not bringing in Esuna and the other tank for not needing to spend mitigations against his ghost.

But I guess it doesn't matter anymore since it seems to be patched now.

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Is it patched? I've seen conflicting messages on that.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Is it patched? I've seen conflicting messages on that.

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I am not sure either. I read somewhere that it was patched and I didn't see nobody skipping it on streams yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Xan_Kriegor

I am not sure either. I read somewhere that it was patched and I didn't see nobody skipping it on streams yesterday.

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Worst case I raid tonight and will find out I guess. If it is, were gonna need a new goat for WAROP to scape. This is still a bug SE should fix more than a sign of how war is OP. 1 class being able to break a mechanic is a technical problem more than anything. I see it as just as dumb as a Pld being able to hallowed mechanics that are designed to give debuffs and force tank swaps cuz 0 damage prevents getting vuln debuffs for some silly reason (like titan EX, etc). That's not pld OP. That's just SE messing up.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Worst case I raid tonight and will find out I guess. If it is, were gonna need a new goat for WAROP to scape. This is still a bug SE should fix more than a sign of how war is OP. 1 class being able to break a mechanic is a technical problem more than anything. I see it as just as dumb as a Pld being able to hallowed mechanics that are designed to give debuffs and force tank swaps cuz 0 damage prevents getting vuln debuffs for some silly reason (like titan EX, etc). That's not pld OP. That's just SE messing up.

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Of course, it is not because of this glitch that WAR is OP. Actually we had a lot of problems in these new fights. Besides this skipping trick in OS5, there was also Byakko's instakill while grabbing a tank and Tuesday I experienced another one in OS5. After killing the Chimney I wasn't knocked out from there and couldn't go anywhere so I had to wait until I die because I didn't get any ghost for the passenger's mech.

FYI: Ghost cheese still works as of last night.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Ghost cheese

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https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...PpfumLP4yjYprw

Sorry couldn't help myself

https://www.fflogs.com/ Can easily be used to establish which tank is the best of dps as people are competitive and want to show others their best. For instance, look at sigmascape savage 2 and split it between all tank dps. Top currently is a 4.7k warrior followed by a 4.6k paladin. Highest dark knight is 4.3k. In sigmascape savage 3, all 3 tanks are parsing within 100 dps of each other. Highest dps tank for god kefka posted is currently a paladin. The margin between the tank classes is rather slim at this point, the classes have a lot different playstyle. For example, warrior is high spike, but rather low sustain. If the logs are looked at for dps, the tanks tend to be around 70% of the top dps' dps (if that makes sense). If you are second on the parse in sigmascape as a tank, and I am not trying to be rude, but I don't think its tanks being too strong.