This is all DRKs get?

DRK can shoot 4000k at parser what do you want more as tank seriously . Same that the sam who can get 6k/6k2 ........

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Originally Posted by Asturyas

DRK can shoot 4000k at parser what do you want more as tank seriously . Same that the sam who can get 6k/6k2 ........

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Maybe at the least be between Warrior and Paladin in a meaningful way in raids since we offer less group utility than paladin?

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Originally Posted by Asturyas

DRK can shoot 4000k at parser what do you want more as tank seriously

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i want defense, selfheal, utility and enmity, a class wich is fun to play and a rework of all those useless skills DRK has (Dark Passenger, Blood Price, Sole Survivor, Unleash / Abyssal Drain wich is unnecessary to have both) and a fix for the clunkiness wich the back and forth shifting of mana and blood is for aoe survivability.

a real class identity would be nice too...

DRK is a mess since 4.0, dps numbers are the last i care for.

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Originally Posted by Asturyas

DRK can shoot 4000k at parser what do you want more as tank seriously . Same that the sam who can get 6k/6k2 ........

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Does this number has been pulled with grit turned off?
If the answer is yes, then i have a bad message for you.

Everytime there is DRK running a duty without grit, there is one Dolphin being killed on earth by the human hands.

Use grit, stop dolphin murder.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Does this number has been pulled with grit turned off?
If the answer is yes, then i have a bad message for you.

Everytime there is DRK running a duty without grit, there is one Dolphin being killed on earth by the human hands.

Use grit, stop dolphin murder.

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You should be more specific when you say "use Grit". Are we talking about massive dungeon pulls? Because outside of that, initial-non-NIN-assisted boss pulls, early-raid progression,and super-emergencies (co-tank + a Healer are suddenly eat dirt) there isn`t really a need for it.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Unleash / Abyssal Drain wich is unnecessary to have both)

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Uhh, what? You aren't seriously comparing these two, are you? Using Abyssal Drain to gain hate is not nearly as effective as Unleash, and Abyssal has a self heal when Dark Arts'd. The only problem with Unleash is that its niche is small not that it needs to be remove. They need to give it another effect or to be adjusted to be worth using more than *at the start of a trash pull.*

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Everytime there is DRK running a duty without grit, there is one Dolphin being killed on earth by the human hands.

Use grit, stop dolphin murder.

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Knowing when it is safe to not use tank stance is the difference between a good and mediocre tank. Your mindset is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Knowing when it is safe to not use tank stance is the difference between a good and mediocre tank. Your mindset is flawed.

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For the most part you need to be in grit stance, since it gives you enmity that holds aggro and makes healers job easier.
There are bosses that you could turn it off, but you have to keep that in mind, if you will turn it off, it has its consequences if the boss or trial is heavy hitting, healer cannot sustain a wet noodle tank and himself if he and other party memeber will be hit with unavoidable or not AOE. I cannot imagine tanking susano without tank stance for instance, since its throwing out so many aoe's its really hard for healer to keep healing you all the time, you could end up dying even if you manage your cd perfectly.

Keep it in mind, switching off tanks stance does not affect only you, but the healers also even on the boss fights, you will be called for a wipe if someone will notice you are not on tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

-snip-.

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I've been tanking since 3.1, so I don't need to be lectured about my main role from someone who has made countless sweepingly inaccurate comments about it throughout several threads over the past few days.

Everything you've mentioned, as well as learning when it is safe to drop stance, are a part of learning how to tank effectively. AoEs going out? Use reprisal, if you're PLD or WAR you can use Divine Veil or SiO. Healers can't keep up with healing? Pop a CD and Convalescence together. Taking too much damage? Guess I should use a CD.

Every statement you've made reeks of an unfamiliarity with the role as a whole, which is absolutely fine, we all had to learn but you can't make statements like that as if they are fact.

You do not need to be in stance all the time, in most high end content you'd be foolish to remain in it. Dungeons are relatively safe as well because you have defensive cooldowns, which contrary to popular belief, are not panic buttons. If you're using your cooldowns effectively, there is little reason to be sitting in tank stance all the time. Be that in a dungeon, trial, extreme trial or savage—it isn't needed if you know what you're doing.

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Keep it in mind, switching off tanks stance does not affect only you, but the healers also even on the boss fights, you will be called for a wipe if someone will notice you are not on tank stance.

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Sure, if you're bad and show no semblance of knowing what to do. However, more oft than not people don't care about tank stance so long as you are doing damage and keeping hate. It's such a non-issue if you're even slightly proficient at your job, one that many fresh tanks think is this massive cardinal sin, when really... it doesn't matter. If you died with tank stance off then there's more going on there than just having it off, as no boss hits hard enough with their autos to kill you in the span of a second; save for busters, with cooldowns up and if your healer is that bad you'd have already known earlier in the dungeon that it may not be safe to drop stance in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

For the most part you need to be in grit stance, since it gives you enmity that holds aggro and makes healers job easier.
There are bosses that you could turn it off, but you have to keep that in mind, if you will turn it off, it has its consequences if the boss or trial is heavy hitting, healer cannot sustain a wet noodle tank and himself if he and other party memeber will be hit with unavoidable or not AOE. I cannot imagine tanking susano without tank stance for instance, since its throwing out so many aoe's its really hard for healer to keep healing you all the time, you could end up dying even if you manage your cd perfectly.

Keep it in mind, switching off tanks stance does not affect only you, but the healers also even on the boss fights, you will be called for a wipe if someone will notice you are not on tank stance.

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You have no clue how tanking at a high level works. Not only is tanking without tank stance expected, but it's perfectly do-able.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i want defense, selfheal, utility and enmity, a class wich is fun to play and a rework of all those useless skills DRK has (Dark Passenger, Blood Price, Sole Survivor, Unleash / Abyssal Drain wich is unnecessary to have both) and a fix for the clunkiness wich the back and forth shifting of mana and blood is for aoe survivability.

a real class identity would be nice too...

DRK is a mess since 4.0, dps numbers are the last i care for.

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An identity would be nice yes. Been asking for one since Heavensward and really lost it's sense of self at 4.0 launch after getting gutted. At 70 you can do "okay" but play a DRK in ARR content synced down and tell me how much "fun" it is.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

You have no clue how tanking at a high level works. Not only is tanking without tank stance expected, but it's perfectly do-able.

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Ergo a DPS that can hold hate and take a hit. That's what passes for Tanking in this game. It's pitiful. Healer will top you off anyway.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Ergo a DPS that can hold hate and take a hit. That's what passes for Tanking in this game. It's pitiful. Healer will top you off anyway.

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That's not really related to my comment, but ok.

A DRK must have kicked one of the devs out of their FC or lost his raid spot to one.
Everybody can clearly see DRK is grossly underpowered and taking one over a WAR or PLD is a straight up detriment to a group.
They can't just be oblivious to something so easy to see.
BLM and SAM are in the same boat. There is no way the devs can't see the problems that are so obvious.
SAM and BLM bring no utility and don't do enough DPS to make up for their lack of it.
Any other class even one that does less damage will still bring more dps overall as all classes except DRK SAM and BLM bring support and utility. These classes either have to be doing significantly more DPS or give them some utility because as it is they are a straight up dps / utility loss to bring.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Snip

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Here's the thing you don't need tank stance for EX trials or Savage shocking I know, as long as your co tank is Shirking and you're doing the same you'll never lose threat ever, nothing in this game is gonna one shot you unless you didn't pop a CD. Hell Susano is a bad example as we've out geared it quite heavily as well and even in current content I was tanking it out of tank stance and I played exclusively only Drk even at the beginning of the pull I was out of tank stance using TBN to eat those cleaves it's not hard you just have to understand your class.

Healers not being able to heal you as effectively is just a cop out honestly there is no wet noodle tank because TBs in most high end content aren't the issues it's the random auto attacks and crits that'll end you faster than anything. Healers are absurdly powerful in this game and they have so many tools that it's quite frankly insane what they can do whether it comes to their utility, DPS, they're just ontop because they have the most control over a group when it comes to encounters because you need them.

I dunno when you started tanking but you can do anything without a tank stance you just need to actively use your toolkit as tanks are far from squish as long as you don't eat a TB with nothing or pull a gigantic pack in a dungeon without tank stance and pop 0 CDs then you're fine, when I do pulls I solidify threat and drop stance and AoE them down as a Drk while rotating my CDs it's just a matter of skill.

I know people have responded to you just giving you my view on it as a discussion bottom line is tanks are in full control of how much damage they take and don't need the cushion of a tank stance, healers are the backbone of a group and can do so much that people really don't give them enough credit.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I like some of the suggestions people have been throwing around. to make up for lack of utility. Well you could give it utility instead, like Sole Survivor also places a vulnerability up debuff on the target to boost raid dps. If that's too much... I guess an aoe shield mitigation to match the other two tanks?

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That is probably the best and easiest fix for DRK i have heard. Make sole survivor 10% damage vulnerability for 20 seconds (since it is 120 sec cooldown or decrease cooldown to 60 and make it 10 second duration). Or make it act similar to stratagen and give crit vulnerability. Either of these would be easy and fix the problem WAR could still be the highest dps but DRK raises the groups DPS. It shocks me how many idea's the community has come up with to fix DRK but SE ignores them all.

^ that is broken.
DRK is as fine as ever in action. I just downed o6s after 2h30m of blind prog in 340 gear with my DRK mt and I was tanking the floor a lot more than he was as PLD. TBN is actually brokenly powerful on Single Target, moreso than people seem to think. Tanks are p close in balance rn and MOST of the suggested changes people on these forums give would absolutely crush any type of balance or border on broken like a sole survivor vuln up.

Because you cleared X changes nothing. It is simple fact that DRK has the lowest DPS the lowest mitigation no raid utility except a single target spell and the lowest sustainability.
Your results do not make your assertion true.

You can't argue facts the skills simply are not there for DRK.
All you clearing a fight with DRK shows is that your healers are good and your team made up the deficit for bringing you.
And the above change is literally just trick attack on a 2 minute cd without the 400 potency.
Every class in the game except 3 have a buff or some type of utility. Those three classes are the ones nobody wants. WHM doesn't have utility but they are the best at what they do, Raw healing. We either need utility or something to claim as our own.

I feel like the devs ignoring DRK means that they see something in it the community doesn't.

I'm beginning to suspect it's that they expect DRK to be the most survivable tank at the cost of the lowest damage (ie Using TBN on cooldown), but everyone swears off it because it's a (slight) dps loss.

Of course, that's just tin-hat talk.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I feel like the devs ignoring DRK means that they see something in it the community doesn't.

I'm beginning to suspect it's that they expect DRK to be the most survivable tank at the cost of the lowest damage (ie Using TBN on cooldown), but everyone swears off it because it's a (slight) dps loss.

Of course, that's just tin-hat talk.

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Clemency kinda kills that idea. It restores 30-50% of a paladins HP and they can spam it. A paladin using riot blade and sheltron can do exactly what you describe. Super low dps but crazy survivability.
So does warrior having HP recovery on their combo finisher AND Inner beast and two instant hp recovery skills.
DRK's only single target hp recovery is weaker than both WAR's and PLD and TBN is on a 15 second CD. If you mean AoE then yeah we function pretty well in that but raid bosses don't frequently have 4-5 targets to make it effective.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I feel like the devs ignoring DRK means that they see something in it the community doesn't.

I'm beginning to suspect it's that they expect DRK to be the most survivable tank at the cost of the lowest damage (ie Using TBN on cooldown), but everyone swears off it because it's a (slight) dps loss.

Of course, that's just tin-hat talk.

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As a FF fan from the FF1 days where DRK had high defense and bitching damage in the standard games it was present in I am in conflict against their design philosophy for DRK in XIV. For a game that metes out physical damage, magic damage, and a darkness damage type that ignores defense values and the DRK not being able to inflict Darkness damage at all is baffling to me.

Right now you use DRK for either dungeon runs(which right now it's more fun to go WAR) or use DRK for progression. All while being clunky and overwhelming with some skills not even being used at all or using skills requires a lot of work just to barely break even.

And most of DRK is really centered around TBN. And wants you to MT.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

As a FF fan from the FF1 days where DRK had high defense and bitching damage in the standard games it was present in I am in conflict against their design philosophy for DRK in XIV. For a game that metes out physical damage, magic damage, and a darkness damage type that ignores defense values and the DRK not being able to inflict Darkness damage at all is baffling to me.

Right now you use DRK for either dungeon runs(which right now it's more fun to go WAR) or use DRK for progression. All while being clunky and overwhelming with some skills not even being used at all or using skills requires a lot of work just to barely break even.

And most of DRK is really centered around TBN. And wants you to MT.

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DRK was not present in FF1, it first appeared as a non playable job in 2, and then in 3, there was the Demon Swordsman who was turned into the Dark Knight. However, the DRK's basic design has pretty much been one of sacrificing health in order to do high damage. In theory, DRK should be the highest damage tank with poor survivability that's offset with heath leech abilities. Right now, it's centered around both TBN and DA, but it's not consistent. DP is worthless, and in some cases, you can have a full bar of blood with nothing to use it on.

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Originally Posted by Asturyas

DRK can shoot 4000k at parser what do you want more as tank seriously . Same that the sam who can get 6k/6k2 ........

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I hope you are not being serious.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Does this number has been pulled with grit turned off?
If the answer is yes, then i have a bad message for you.

Everytime there is DRK running a duty without grit, there is one Dolphin being killed on earth by the human hands.

Use grit, stop dolphin murder.

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I think he is referring to raid fights in which after the learning period is done it is actually normal to tanks turn off the defensive stance during most of the fight without killing any Dolphins ^^

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

^ that is broken.
DRK is as fine as ever in action. I just downed o6s after 2h30m of blind prog in 340 gear with my DRK mt and I was tanking the floor a lot more than he was as PLD. TBN is actually brokenly powerful on Single Target, moreso than people seem to think. Tanks are p close in balance rn and MOST of the suggested changes people on these forums give would absolutely crush any type of balance or border on broken like a sole survivor vuln up.

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I agree with you that adding vulnerability up to Sole Survivor the way it was mentioned would surely broken it. However I strongly disagree with you about the balancement state of tanks at the moment. Perhaps Paladin e Warrior are balanced after these last changes but Dark Knight is definetely behind them. There are a lot of maths, statistics and arguments to support this.

TBN is for sure a good spell and I guess nobody denies that. But it is not brokenly powerful as you said because it is not free. It is actually a very expensive skill to use since it costs almost 1/3 of your most important resource. Also, due to the lack of other mitigations, DRK seems to be more dependent of his on-demand skill than other tanks.

It is fairly understandable that players keep making improvement suggestions for skills such as Sole Survivor and Dark Passenger as these are among the worst-designed skills of the entire game, and some of them do not even put these skills in their action bars. No other tank job has skills so useless like these.

Yoshi has made it clear that it is not of his intention to make all jobs similars. Each job must have unique characteristics in its playstyle. To achieve a good state in balance each tank job should have pros and cons against the others in such way that in the end all jobs feel useful yet having some flaws at certain moments. Unfortunately, at the moment Dark Knight seems to have many flaws and very few pros.

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Originally Posted by Delily

DRK was not present in FF1, it first appeared as a non playable job in 2, and then in 3, there was the Demon Swordsman who was turned into the Dark Knight. However, the DRK's basic design has pretty much been one of sacrificing health in order to do high damage. In theory, DRK should be the highest damage tank with poor survivability that's offset with heath leech abilities. Right now, it's centered around both TBN and DA, but it's not consistent. DP is worthless, and in some cases, you can have a full bar of blood with nothing to use it on.

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Let me bold the important part.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

As a FF fan from the FF1 days where DRK had high defense and bitching damage in the standard games it was present in I am in conflict against their design philosophy for DRK in XIV. For a game that metes out physical damage, magic damage, and a darkness damage type that ignores defense values and the DRK not being able to inflict Darkness damage at all is baffling to me.

Right now you use DRK for either dungeon runs(which right now it's more fun to go WAR) or use DRK for progression. All while being clunky and overwhelming with some skills not even being used at all or using skills requires a lot of work just to barely break even.

And most of DRK is really centered around TBN. And wants you to MT.

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Ergo games like 3, X-2, XI, Bravely Default, etc. I would have thought that was obvious. Instead you opt to go for cherrypicking.

Until DRK is actively sacrificing HP for damage it isn't a DRK in any sense. Right now DRK has no real identity and just has an aesthetic thing going for it. It's selling on name alone and right now the only thing people want to talk about that makes it viable is TBN.

DRK is definitely behind PLD and WAR on paper but it's really not even close to as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Like literally Aoe TBN that gives 100 blood if 2+ shields pop, maybe a 20 potency Souleater and BS buff, and boom balanced. Dark Passenger and Sole Survivor are niche skills, they aren't really in a great spot since both of them are fight specific, but in the fights they can be used in, they're useful.

Sole Survivor 20% MP restore is less than a Grit Siphon Strike. 20% HP not really competing with Equil/ToB/Clem. only every couple minutes on top of circumstance of mob dying.

I am happy with Sole being a niche skill (corpse-feed), just not such a lousy one.

I'd like to see it's recast cut in half when enemy is KO'd, the debuff spread to mobs near that KO'd mob as well. Still incredibly niche, but has a rolling snowball scaling output to it when more and more adds/trash are encountered.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Let me bold the important part.



Ergo games like 3, X-2, XI, Bravely Default, etc. I would have thought that was obvious. Instead you opt to go for cherrypicking.

Until DRK is actively sacrificing HP for damage it isn't a DRK in any sense. Right now DRK has no real identity and just has an aesthetic thing going for it. It's selling on name alone and right now the only thing people want to talk about that makes it viable is TBN.

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High defense has never been a part of the dark knight's concept. As the series's role have solidified over the years, the dark knight's signature ability is sacrificing health for more damage.

However, that doesn't translate well into a tank role in an MMO for a myriad of reasons. Our identity is about spending our MP on Dark Arts to empower various abilities, which is why Darkside kills our refresh. The problems are that there's very little reason to not use Dark Arts on things like Quietus, Bloodspiller, Carve & Spit, and Dark Passenger. Using it on Abyssal Drain was great, but it was over tuned, which is why they killed Blood Price and upped the cost on AD. Finally, there's also little reason to use it on Siphon Strike or Souleater.

SE needs to give me a reason to think about not using DA on those abilities, and a reason to think about using Dark Arts on Souleater (I'm sure some high end raiders do weave it occasionally). That would be a start. SE also needs to do something about Blood, because right now, it's top heavy. In a Susano normal fight, which I do becaue of the trial roulette, I'm sitting at full Blood because Bloodspiller is locked and Delirium is on Cooldown. It's not a problem at 70, persay. They don't need to go crazy here redesigning the class, they just need to make it worth using a DA-empowered Siphon Strike, and not using DA always on Bloodspiller. Maybe even make TBN raid wide if Dark Arts is used. Right, also do something with Sole Survior and Dark Passenger. It's ridiculous that 2 abilities aren't even on my action bar.

The only way we can get away with a health sacrifice mechanic is if it returns a shield equivalent to the lost HP

I don't see the issue with sacrificing HP if healer gonna top your ass off anyway but whatevs.

I think it could have worked easily. Really would have loved to see an HP transfering Dark knight. There's so many ways they could have done it. Have no doubt they could have made the sacrifical HP a reality even as tank, literally all they had to do was find a way to make HP returns using souleater/MP spells or transfers similar to how TBN functions to give DRK control over its HP, MP, and blood. There are other issues though, Drain is being used as a garbage cross roll skill when its more befitting of a DRK spell, it could have been a spell that does like 20% of your HP worth of damage and gives you 20% HP. Simple things like that. Turn blood weapon into a skill that drains a little HP and MP, turn darkside into a 1-2% HP sacrifice on Weaponskill attacks and abilities that do damage. Aqua Vitae instant for small HP gains every 30 seconds or so of like 10%. Now I'm just rambling about a DRK I'll never get... bleh

I would never, ever, EVER want HP sacrifice on a tank, I just don't think it works for a tab-target game. A game like Tera where you can dodge every attack launched at you with pure skill? Sure. A game like this where you eff up and drain just enough HP for an AA after a tankbuster to kill you because it's part of your rotation and you literally can't do anything about being hit by it? Nah.

I think the MP drain was a much more elegant solution to the DRK way of doing things in the context of this game. Sure it'd be nice if they made those MP costs more impactful but I'm glad it's not health. Now HP leeching as a mitigation method on top of their CDs for tankbusters, that I'm all for. Let us self-heal with damn near every weaponskill and then we don't need fluff cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

I would never, ever, EVER want HP sacrifice on a tank, I just don't think it works for a tab-target game. A game like Tera where you can dodge every attack launched at you with pure skill? Sure. A game like this where you eff up and drain just enough HP for an AA after a tankbuster to kill you because it's part of your rotation and you literally can't do anything about being hit by it? Nah.

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But if you know the fight and when a Tankbuster and AA comes out you should be ready for it right?

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Originally Posted by Silver_Blade

Because you cleared X changes nothing. It is simple fact that DRK has the lowest DPS the lowest mitigation no raid utility except a single target spell and the lowest sustainability.
Your results do not make your assertion true.

You can't argue facts the skills simply are not there for DRK.
All you clearing a fight with DRK shows is that your healers are good and your team made up the deficit for bringing you.
And the above change is literally just trick attack on a 2 minute cd without the 400 potency.
Every class in the game except 3 have a buff or some type of utility. Those three classes are the ones nobody wants. WHM doesn't have utility but they are the best at what they do, Raw healing. We either need utility or something to claim as our own.

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Just because DRK's DPS is behind, even a bit, and doesn't offer anything unique doesn't mean it's so bad it's automatically carried. Believe it or not DRK can still contribute properly, and if you don't believe that then remember that a DRK was part of an Ultimate Bahamut clear. Yes that is a cliche defense but in this case an effective one as no doubt the entire group must contribute their all to clear it.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Just because DRK's DPS is behind, even a bit, and doesn't offer anything unique doesn't mean it's so bad it's automatically carried. Believe it or not DRK can still contribute properly, and if you don't believe that then remember that a DRK was part of an Ultimate Bahamut clear. Yes that is a cliche defense but in this case an effective one as no doubt the entire group must contribute their all to clear it.

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I want to emphasize this because it's 100% true, and yet this DOES NOT mean that it is not also 100% true that Dark Knight absolutely needs attention and benefit so that they, while not worthless, are not obviously inferior in every aspect with the contributions they provide.

small question, beside aoe pack is blood price +delirium any good on a boss?

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

small question, beside aoe pack is blood price +delirium any good on a boss?

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No. But if you can't afford to drop grit, might as well.

And before people lunge down my throat due to the DPS meta, might I point out that at the moment, we are not geared for savage, so that extra 20% mitigation is actually kind of important.

From what I've experienced, so long as you're not going to use it on Blood Weapon anytime soon it still takes priority since it already refunds you a potential TBN + Bloodspiller with a teensy bit of extra MP on top of that.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

But if you know the fight and when a Tankbuster and AA comes out you should be ready for it right?

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Sorta? Because again, you can't do anything about when it drains alone since presumably, it would be part of the rotation for optimal DPS it would also be down to the healer to set you up for it too (unless you also had mega self-heal capability also). Basically, it'd be like knowing a DPS is gonna stand in an AOE which some do, but it doesn't scream tank to me like even a little.

I dunno. We're already the tank that's most at the mercy of healers with Living and no self-heal, it'd only get worse if were sapping away our own HP IMO.

I’d like to hope that 4.25 will bring the necessary changes to dps increase they spoke of on the LL and that mitigation is looked at. I say this because maybe releasing experimental changes on patch day where everyone is racing to World First not give them an edge in clearing it faster. That people should experience content in its prime before it’s difficulty drops due to class buffs making content easier.

This is SE though after all, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there were no changes. I quit tanking and went to Monk. That class is the only thing keeping me from playing the game now. Else I’ll be advertising in PF as a Miner for Sigmascape Savage clears.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

I want to emphasize this because it's 100% true, and yet this DOES NOT mean that it is not also 100% true that Dark Knight absolutely needs attention and benefit so that they, while not worthless, are not obviously inferior in every aspect with the contributions they provide.

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Long as the gap isn't that wide SE probably won't give it any attention though, least that's how it has been so far. But hey, least we got a duration buff on TBN! Better than nothing right?

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Long as the gap isn't that wide SE probably won't give it any attention though, least that's how it has been so far. But hey, least we got a duration buff on TBN! Better than nothing right?

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I disagree, the gap is far beyond wide enough to cause balance concerns. Like you said, this doesn't mean Dark Knight is not capable of being brought into anything in the game, but this cannot stand.

Ty for your answers.

And yes I was asking for the case where I can't leave Grit for more than a regular Blood Weapon duration.