Discrimination of certain jobs - your opinion

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Originally Posted by HiroKirito

I understand this sentiment and I wouldn't say I'm top tier, some of my group are, but none of us are anywhere close to mediocre so maybe that's why we have the flexibility.

I guess my overall message was meant to be more play what you want but play it well and if the group's too rigid to just accept a competent player regardless of role, they aren't the kind of groups you want to join anyway.

As someone else said though dependencies is more of an issue with comp imo. Our Sam still plays Sam occasionally but runs Drg more often now because ultimately there's a ceiling for our brd/mch that he cant break through easily without the piercing and crit buffs drg brings.

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I get ya. :) I just find the trend a bit concerning to insist on the 'meta' comp and it is taking away a lot of fun having to look quite a while for pugs who accept you in their farms. It might have been there all along, but I started to notice really when I left my static.

Too much damage; nerf the damage because why would you take utility jobs. Too much utility; nerf the utility because why would you take DPS jobs.

You just can't win it seems. You do either one of those and one side is going to cry foul. But analyzing Square's track record seems to indicate that utility over DPS is never going to budge. At this point you have to ask: Are people happy with the knowledge that community perception of meta will favor a utility job over your DPS job? Sure, you can technically do all of the content in FFXIV with any job, BUT you will absolutely be pressured by randoms and statics to change to a utility job at some point. Will you adamantly say no to that and face possible rejection because you just don't want to play a freaking ninja right now? Or are you going to cave in and say ''Ah, screw it. I can't be bothered to fight about this anymore.''

Thats just it though, why should people be forced into a job they don't particularly enjoy or like, because the hivemind decided that "we only want meta jobs"

Sam has no utulity and I rather take a good sam over a bad drg with utility anyday. A bad DRG (low dps) and utility doesnt do more than a good sam over the drg.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Thats just it though, why should people be forced into a job they don't particularly enjoy or like, because the hivemind decided that "we only want meta jobs"

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Agreed 100%.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Sam has no utulity and I rather take a good sam over a bad drg with utility anyday. A bad DRG (low dps) and utility doesnt do more than a good sam over the drg.

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You seem to be a bit of a unicorn with that thinking though, compared to the overall mindset of the community right now. I agree though, I even tried to make that point to a person in PF today, and for some reason got immediately called out for 'trolling' (he couldn't even make a distinction between trolling and a discussion between two adults) and got told 'no one wants SAM. If a SAM wants a fflog run, then they set up their own party'.

I guess he wanted a bloated dps log run. His spots weren't filling for an hour though.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Thats just it though, why should people be forced into a job they don't particularly enjoy or like, because the hivemind decided that "we only want meta jobs"

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Don't take this the wrong way, but by that logic why should people be forced to invite a job they don't particularly enjoy or like playing with, just because that person decided they didn't like any of the meta jobs? You're basically saying that your sense of what's fun is more important than theirs. If people enjoy the "meta" and want to play that way, that's just as much their right as it is your right to play Samurai. You're no more entitled to compel them to compromise on what they want than they are entitled to compel you to play something else. That might mean you don't get into some parties, and on the flip side it might mean they sit around waiting for a Ninja for an hour.

However, my experience browsing Aether PF (which I see is also the data center you're on) is that the vast majority of Omega Savage parties are open to all jobs.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Don't take this the wrong way, but by that logic why should people be forced to invite a job they don't particularly enjoy or like playing with, just because that person decided they didn't like any of the meta jobs? You're basically saying that your sense of what's fun is more important than theirs. If people enjoy the "meta" and want to play that way, that's just as much their right as it is your right to play Samurai. You're no more entitled to compel them to compromise on what they want than they are entitled to compel you to play something else. That might mean you don't get into some parties, and on the flip side it might mean they sit around waiting for a Ninja for an hour.

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You are twisting the words a bit here and what was talked about in this thread in my opinion. What I have experienced is discrimination, as much as someone who gets discriminated for bad dps. There is no actual difference, the essence of it is the same. No one should be excluded from high end raid content, and every job should be attractive in it's own unique way. The bottom of the problem is that there are two really unbalanced jobs at the moment, one more so (BLM) than the other.

Other datacenters might be different, but EU is very difficult at the moment. And as I said, how can it be that a high dps SAM like my mentor is having trouble to find a Bahamut Ultimate group just because of his job?

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

I guess he wanted a bloated dps log run. His spots weren't filling for an hour though.

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To be fair,there is a large amount of SAM players but majority are pretty bad at it. RDM and SAm is one of the easiest classes in game with less punishment compare to the rest. I don't mind a SAM in my group, but if I had to choose a 5k sam vs a 4,8k drg the drg would be easily taken over the SAM. Like some people mentioned already, samurai has insane aggro and has no aggro skill reset, elusive jump is so good for both uptime and aggro reset at the same time in certain fights. This helps the tank dps increase as well, since they mostlikely don't need to use aggro combo.

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

The bottom of the problem is that there are two really unbalanced jobs at the moment, one more so (BLM) than the other?

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I do agree with this. I think there's absolutely a problem with the design/balance right now and I'd like to see it resolved. I know a lot of people would complain if the jobs were too similar/interchangeable but I'd rather that approach than this one. I think there's just a bit too much of a hostile attitude toward the "meta" community that comes out in these discussions with regard to some of the other posts here.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Thats just it though, why should people be forced into a job they don't particularly enjoy or like, because the hivemind decided that "we only want meta jobs"

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Meta is a difficult concept to overcome in a game that relies on numerical outcomes. We do know that meta is the absolute peak perpetuated by the best players and theorycrafters, and that gives meta objective validity. It IS objectively the most reliable and efficient style of play.

However, the problem arises when the community perception overtakes the concept and applies it to everything whilst neglecting variables such as player skill, pool of players, content difficulty, etc. In a controlled environment (statics) with a clear objective, meta is the most efficient play.

Furthermore, some of the blame lies with how the jobs are designed. As akaneakki referenced this issue, some jobs are just safer than others. If you fail as a samurai, you fail completely because you only bring DPS. If you don't particularly perform up to par as a dragoon, at the very least you are bringing up the performance of the rest of the group. Now whether the group can make up for the disparity of your DPS by breaking their limits (heh) depends, but the point stands. It is safer to bet on an average dragoon then it is on a samurai that can range from bad to godlike. Especially if the SAM curve is higher on the bottom end.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

To be fair,there is a large amount of SAM players but majority are pretty bad at it. RDM and SAm is one of the easiest classes in game with less punishment compare to the rest. I don't mind a SAM in my group, but if I had to choose a 5k sam vs a 4,8k drg the drg would be easily taken over the SAM. Like some people mentioned already, samurai has insane aggro and has no aggro skill reset, elusive jump is so good for both uptime and aggro reset at the same time in certain fights. This helps the tank dps increase as well, since they mostlikely don't need to use aggro combo.

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I disagree with your evaluation of job difficulty. A monkey can play RDM - it's by far the easiest job right now. Samurai on the other hand might not be as difficult as NIN, but you still can screw up your dps with a lot of little things (even overshooting your Kenki constantly by 5). It takes a lot of dedication, practice and knowledge to not just be average or good, but outstanding. Which applies not just to the Samurai job.

But again, we are kind of circling back to the point with what you are saying about the lack of utility and damage: If you want SAM to be an asset and as valuable as other jobs like DRG or NIN without giving it a buff, then it needs more damage. If I look at the fflogs of o1s I can hardly see a difference between SAM, BLM and MCH.

1) 6.367k (SAM)
2) 6.355 (BLM)
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5) 6.264 (MCH)

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Originally Posted by HiroKirito

Just want to quickly answer this part first. NO.... I agree that they need a tiny bit of love, but you want a "utility" buff but without sacrificing any of your dps is asking way to much and would just continue the circle jerk of "meta" jobs.

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The thing is, neither SAM nor BLM bring enough DPS to compensate for their lack of utility. In fact, BLM gets utterly decimated by SMN—being inferior at quite literally everything. SAM, meanwhile, does approximately 300-500 more DPS than DRG, who buffs BRD/MCH by that same amount, if not more. Ama is essentially arguing SE needs to commit one way or another. Either SAM/BLM get some utility and they wholly abandon the selfish DPS role or they buff their numbers to ensure they adequately compensate for bringing nothing to the raid except high damage. Until one of those two scenarios happens, people will continue to push them out.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The thing is, neither SAM nor BLM bring enough DPS to compensate for their lack of utility. In fact, BLM gets utterly decimated by SMN—being inferior at quite literally everything. SAM, meanwhile, does approximately 300-500 more DPS than DRG, who buffs BRD/MCH by that same amount, if not more. Ama is essentially arguing SE needs to commit one way or another. Either SAM/BLM get some utility and they wholly abandon the selfish DPS role or they buff their numbers to ensure they adequately compensate for bringing nothing to the raid except high damage. Until one of those two scenarios happens, people will continue to push them out.

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I think you nailed it.
I doubt that SE is not seeing the problem - so my hope is that there will be some kind of change.

I want to start my post by a lil disclaimer. My static contains both BLM and SAM. We have cleared O4S with no intent to step into ultimate. Not as a lack of skills but as a lack of commitment.

With that out of the way, SAM isn't a job that's prefered. A SAM player has to consistently be on point to compensate his lack of damage buffs to the rest of the party (same for a BLM). This is even accentuated by the fact that we are in the farm point of the patch. Meaning survival utility is not desired as much (affects RDM and MNK). It's not discrimination to follow the player established meta. In many games, characters/jobs/classes live and die by the meta. This isn't a problem. Different jobs peak at different times.

Now on with PF. A player that posts their openings on the PF have any right to exclude a player/job they don't want to play with. It's their group, their rules and if you're not okay with that, he's free to kick you out and you are free to not join. As for the BL after your tell, that's going a bit far but in my opinion (and this is purely my opinion, you are free to disagree) sending a tell to the leader when you clearly don't fill his requirement is annoying. Like someone begging for scraps. Again, personal viewpoint there but I do agree, blacklisting goes kind of far. I would of just firmly turned you down.

Again with PF but for the players using it! PF players are a wonderful mixed bag. Like those jelly beans from Harry Potter, you might get wonderful Watermelon flavor one time and get puke flavor the other. Except in this instance, the odds of getting vomit are quite high. Higher end players don't need PFs, they have a well established social circle of likely minded player who like to aim for the same goals and push performances to their limits. That's fine but it does leave out everything under them to mix it up in PF and knowing the average of the community has problems following complete rotations on top of mechanics the numbers aren't as high. This leads to damage utility having more of a value. I'll explain. A PF Dragoon player is always preferable to a PF Samurai. Why? Because as long as the Dragoon knows to hit Battle Littany, Dragon tether(don't know the name of that one) and apply Piercing debuff, he's done his job utility wise. He'll boost others numbers the same ammount independently than his own performance. Meanwhile, a SAM is less favorable as this safety net is non-existant. There is nothing redeeming the greedy DPS archetype in this setting. Because of this a SAM is seen as a bigger risk than a DRG.

BLM suffers alot from it's design and it's own memes. A BLM is unmatched DPS, as long as it's allowed to cast non stop and doesn't have to move through an encounter. It has more utility than SAM with Manashift, Addle and Apocatastasis. Again, survival utility, not damage utility. Their supportive skills are less desired. The big problem here is the encounter design in Trials and High End content. Always a lot of movements required. Just really doesn't play in the favor of the BLM. This in turn, pushes BLM into a higher skill ceiling and makes the job less impactful for the PF level of play. Also you always have those "healers adjust!" BLMs that... just nobody likes...

People don't look at past parses unless you go into Savage/Ultimate generally. So stop playing FFlogs as this boogeyman just being behind the scenes that ruins all your chances to get a group. People just don't care that much.

Now with all of that said, is job balance perfect? No, of course it isn't but it's at a pretty good spot to keep things going forward. All you can really do, is apply yourself to learning and mastering your jobs to squeeze out the max out of them and make a name for yourself across your data center to be a great Samurai or change mains to increase the need for you in PFs. Up to you really.

Also can we stop throwing the word elitist around? This is becoming a new buzzword like LoL's toxic. Empty of all sense and meaning. Following a meta is not being "elitist". It's just following the Most Effective Tactic Available. Can't blame players for wanting to max out their chances. Like solo PLD tank Zurvan PFs late HW... RIP WAR mains then...

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

....People don't look at past parses unless you go into Savage/Ultimate generally. So stop playing FFlogs as this boogeyman just being behind the scenes that ruins all your chances to get a group. People just don't care that much.

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I am not really sure what you are saying, I have no intention to 'play fflogs as boogeyman' - I just don't have a high opinion of it, except for training and improvement purposes. I never had anyone look up fflogs for a freaking o1s run. But that's beside the point, it didn't have to do anything with Samurai being not as valued as other jobs and my experience with raiding via PF lately.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Now with all of that said, is job balance perfect? No, of course it isn't but it's at a pretty good spot to keep things going forward. All you can really do, is apply yourself to learning and mastering your jobs to squeeze out the max out of them and make a name for yourself across your data center to be a great Samurai or change mains to increase the need for you in PFs. Up to you really.

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How does this statement apply to the fact that the 'max' of the Samurai is not really far away from other jobs, other jobs with utility, regarding to the Savage logs?

What is bothering me is that you seem to be particularly addressing me with the majority your points (and by the way you didn't even read carefully, I got never blacklisted and no one kicked me out of a group) instead of just sticking to the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

How does this statement apply to the fact that the 'max' of the Samurai is not really far away from other jobs, other jobs with utility, regarding to the Savage logs?

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Even in savage clears, Samurais have highs and lows, accentuated by the fact it's now unlocked and PF quality has gone down. Meaning the average Samurai has gone down as well. Be above the average samurai and take it a notch higher by being above the average player. I know it's unfair for a job to have to work more for such little benefits but that's what is demanded out of Samurais. To compensate for their lack of utility, which in PF levels of play, is very achievable.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

Even in savage clears, Samurais have highs and lows, accentuated by the fact it's now unlocked and PF quality has gone down. Meaning the average Samurai has gone down as well. Be above the average samurai and take it a notch higher by being above the average player. I know it's unfair for a job to have to work more for such little benefits but that's what is demanded out of Samurais. To compensate for their lack of utility, which in PF levels of play, is very achievable.

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As far as I know, no Samurai ever cleared o1s higher than 6.3k (or maybe it was 6.6k, I can't remember), and that is being overfed with buffs (the meta comp everyone is mentioning + pots/food). You can correct me if I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

As far as I know, no Samurai ever cleared o1s higher than 6.3k (or maybe it was 6.6k, I can't remember), and that is being overfed with buffs (the meta comp everyone is mentioning + pots/food). You can correct me if I am wrong.

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And nobody out in PF is asking for that. You need to beat the average PF player's Samurai. Not the top tier, hyper buffed Samurais. Make your Samurai play worth picking over another random PF random and be known for it. If you still can't get it, I'm sure someone else can explain it to you better than I can. I might not be getting my point across as I am not a native English speaker.

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

Hey guys, I was always in a static until I gave it up and I started to pug my savages.

Especially since they lifted the restrictions on the savages (which also means the overall quality of pugs is declining, especially for o2s+ in my opinion), I found it increasingly hard to get into groups as SAM.

A lot of them requested NIN/DRG as melee, I'd say 80% at least on the EU datacenter, and it frustrates me. Sometimes I even sent a tell, today I just got the answer 'BL :)' back. It almost seemed discriminating. I can still do my Savages of course, that's not the point, the point is that I don't find it particularly fair.

I want to ask about your opinion, your experience, and I would like start a discussion in a decent manner. I don't want to bash on other jobs.

I am just asking myself, why is there not a raid wide buff for every class like in WoW?
Is there a way to make a BLM and SAM (and I guess MCH?) more valuable to the party without having to cut the dps of SAM?

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I can’t really speak on EU PF, but a lot of the groups I see on Aether that have locked party slots have either done it for speed/parse runs (so they want the meta, which SAM is not a part of due to its lack of utility), or they locked it to “role”, and a MNK already joined in the MNK/SAM spot (they do this for DPS to prevent multiple DPS from needing on role gear, and usually do the same to RDM/SMN/BLM and BRD/MCH—NIN and DRG are lucky since they don’t share any left side pieces with other jobs). But that’s Aether.

It could be that they want the meta for supposedly fast/clean clears, but locking a PF to the meta comp will not necessarily mean you’ll have a fast/clear clear; it’s the same as when people lock the item level to 335 or 340; higher ilvl doesn’t mean better players, and the same applies to the meta comp unless the party leader “asks a little birdie” about the people that join their group and their performance.

I know it’s probably not the best solution, but you are always more than welcome to create your own PFs without any role locks. Sadly, the party leaders of PF parties are entitled to set whatever requirements they want for their PFs, and there isn’t anything that can be done about that. (The “BL. :’)” attitude however, is unnecessary.)


With regards to SAM and its lack of utility: when SAM was first announced, the developers said outright that it would be a selfish DPS with no raid-wide/party utility outside of its high damage. Which, to be frank, isn’t really that high since MNK can keep up with a SAM, and MNK offers raid-utility (Brotherhood/Mantra). MNK was in the same boat in HW, which posed a lot of issues because raid comps did not favor MNK due to it’s lack of contribution to a raid as a whole (same with BLM, and the fact that BLM was difficult to optimize in any fight that required a lot of movement). MCH does have utility, and it is still part of the meta, though it will sometimes be subbed out for SMN because SMN is just monstrous right now in terms of DPS, and it can Raise party members (RDM is usually only used for prog because its personal DPS pales in comparison with SMN now, and BLM is just in a very bad spot in general right now). It (MCH) just doesn’t offer the same amounts of support a BRD does, but BRD has always been the king of support when it comes to raid comps.

Honestly, the only way to really break the “meta” would be to do something with NIN (NIN isn’t part of the meta solely because of Trick Attack, but because of it’s aggro utilities Shadewalker/Smokescreen) and to do something to break the DRG/BRD/MCH meta, which would involve addressing the piercing resistance down debuff.

Since SB did not introduce any new job that gave piercing resistance down (and did not just let BRD/MCH apply it themselves), BRD/MCH just shrugged their shoulders at the other jobs and continued to cling to DRG, because their damage is so directly affected by a DRG’s Disembowel (and BRD benefits A LOT from Battle Litany, but not as much as from Disembowel). To give a bit of insight, I main, and raid with, BRD, and with just Disembowel alone, I consistently do 400~500 more DPS for the entirety of the fight than if I don’t have Disembowel. Combine DRG’s Battle Litany with a SCH’s Chain Strategem, and my opener can easily burst for 8k to 9k DPS; without, it can sometimes break 7k if I get lucky with Pitch Perfect procs/if their’s an AST and they Expanded a Balance or gave me a Spear. And that’s fairly significant.

NIN has consistently been in the meta since it was launched in 2.4, and the job has never received any sort of significant nerfs to it. I really do like the utility NIN brings, but if SE wants to discourage the physical DPS meta (which I think is one reason why they nerfed Disembowel from 10% to 5% in SB), they need to give other jobs equivalents of Shade/Smoke. But such can be really difficult, because it may destroy the identity of NIN as a whole. And, not to speak ill here or anything, the developers have proven that they struggle with true job balance several times in the history of this game (see: BRD/MCH buff wars in HW, AST in general pre-3.4 and post-3.4).

I believe that the developers are planning to address a lot of the issues surrounding BLM right now, but I think the purpose of jobs like BLM and SAM are that their personal DPS serves as the “utility” they bring. But, unfortunately, a lot of groups much prefer the types of utility from jobs like NIN and BRD/MCH (hence why those three are meta), and the buffs from NIN and DRG (so, again, meta). And it’s fine if the devs want BLM/SAM to just be these godly, monstrous DPS machines, but, as it stands now, they really aren’t. Like I stated earlier, a skilled MNK can easily keep up with an equally-skilled SAM (there isn’t a terrible difference in the two’s personal DPS), and SMN just stomps all over BLM in terms of damage AND utility right now.

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

People were actually complaining about SAM having the highest DPS? That's pretty ridiculous.
SE should put their foot down about some things... some obviously stupid things. Weren't people QQ'ing for months/years about how MNK needs to do more damage because it has no utility?

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I, personally, was complaining that they're creating a slippery slope job design creep. MNK was the greedy DPS. Then, they decided to make SAM the greedy DPS, and gave MNK a thematic cooldown. What's to stop them from implementing another Job, saying "This is THE greedy DPS" and giving SAM a cooldown. People who played MNK wanted to be the greedy DPS, and SAM stole that from them. What's to stop X from stealing it from SAM?

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Yup, happens all the time. Mostly because people don't realize it was the RDM and not the healers getting people up. Even with my macro people tend to say thanks to the healers for all the res. Though, last night(you can find the story in the Tales from Duty Finder thread) I did get a comm, not sure who from, but mine went to the SAM, the only other person that didn't die during the whole thing aside from the wipe because Roofie got 100% on his bar.

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You could be describing a Rabanastre I just healed, except that RDM got at least one comm (mine). The healers know who is doing the ressing. :) Other people don't tend to pay that close attention to it.

The comms aren't always a fair reflection of what's going on in the group. But keep up the good work, we appreciate our RDM helpers.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Tanks for example. Paladin was highly defensive with no offence. But balance meant warriors and later darks also had to be able to tank well enough but those jobs bought more dps to the table and As a warrior/ dark could tank well enough. The extra defence of a paladin was useless and that's why they were shunned and given so many offensive buffs.

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But that's a game design issue. The tank has to have enough defense to be able to do the encounter. If they don't, they can't tank it. More defense is nice for us healers, but if you're brushing up against enrages (not uncommon when pushing new content), more offense is better once you have the necessary defense.

A fight that can fully tax the healers to the limit is going to reward more defense because it creates a margin for error, but it's pretty hard to get that right without pushing it to "PLD is required".

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Healers. Whm was raw healing power but again sch and later say had to be able to heal well enough for the sake of balance the result again was whms got left out as the extra healing power they bought was unnecessary. More offence was better.

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Same problem. Any healer incapable of healing through the damage on a given encounter is fundamentally unable to do the encounter. If SE designed a fight where say AST is fundamentally incapable of doing the required healing, people would be very unhappy because the job is effectively incapable of doing its role at that point.

In a multiplayer game you can't have classes so imbalanced that people simply can't use a bunch of them. That's a great way to get angry customers. You can do that in a single player game because people can do whatever they want, and you can do it in things like tabletop RPGs because the DM can adjust and a veteran player might want to play something weaker when paired up with newbies so as to not overshadow them. In a multiplayer game like this? It doesn't work to have some jobs that can't do their primary role.

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And with dps it's the same. That's why many took a drg over a monk because balance says drg damage must be comparable but dragon also had utility with litany and such. Which trumped the ever so slightly higher dps a monk offered.

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DPS has it the worst because you've got ten jobs, four slots, and lots of people trying to fill them. That math doesn't work very well. Inevitably people will want the strongest ones they can get because they want a clear, and frankly the tanks & healers are more capable of being choosey. You always want a better player over a given job, but it's pretty hard to tell that in PF.

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Balance is the problem. They need to really make jobs unique and less samey so they all bring something to the table.

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If they all bring something to the table and they're all equally useful, they're balanced. If they're not all equally useful, this happens. If there is a wide disparity in their usefulness, some of them will be told to go level something else before being allowed into the party. Unless you want a bunch of jobs to never be played anymore, I don't see how encouraging that is going to accomplish anything.

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The extra healing power of a whm for example should be powerful enough a group only needs one healer. Maybe a smn or redmage for a secondary raise. Should the worst happen. Or the extra defensive power of a old might mean it can survive mecha wars and drks might have to swap for. Meaning 1 pld could be enough. Or 2 of either war and dark.

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So you bring one WHM, one PLD, and 6 DPS... or any other comp and 4 DPS? I guess if you want to obsolete four jobs and lower DPS wait times, that's an excellent idea?

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But as long as they try and balance everything the system will never work. Utility will always be king because pure fps jobs just don't offer enough extra dps to male them worthwhile.

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The system doesn't work because they're trying to balance it, implying it's not balanced. So the solution is to give up and make it more imbalanced? Seems legit.

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Same with healers. Utility will always trump more unneeded healing power. And tanks fps will always trump extra mitigation that just isnt necessary

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WHM seems to be doing just fine unless you're trying to inflate your logs, in which case you don't want one. The healers are in a pretty good spot right now, balance wise. All three are clearing stuff and there isn't a lot of exclusion (outside of parse runs, of course).

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

I think you nailed it.
I doubt that SE is not seeing the problem - so my hope is that there will be some kind of change.

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I wish I could be as optimistic, however Monk suffered an identical issue throughout all of Heavensward and they did absolutely nothing to alleviate it because "monk can clear content." Sadly, this has been their continual excuse—even citing it outright in regards to the DRK complaints. Now I will say as someone who switched to SAM for half this tier—during prog no less—every job can clear content without a problem. That won't stop the "meta" comp from being preferred. And until the devs except that large sweeping differences like we're seeing now will impact how people choose jobs, those preferences won't change. That isn't to say we need perfect equilibrium, just a closer balance so certain jobs (BRD/MCH, for example), don't suffer to the extent they do without DRG or that bringing a SAM/BLM makes up the difference for not having Litany and Trick Attack.

I'd wager a couple of deep-seeded design issues are also contributing to this.

The first is group size. Looking at FFXI, as an example, the hardest content typically had at least one, and often multiple, alliances. When you've got 18+ people, there's a role for most everyone (well, except the designated solo job in FFXI, BST). That's not to say people were entirely free to bring the jobs they wanted - there had to be enough of X type of role to handle the mechanics - but there was more flexibility.

In FFXIV, SE has stuck with a relatively small 8-person setup for the hardest content. This is an awkward middle ground; it's not so small that groups are close-knit and very familiar with each other, and it's not so large that people don't much care. It practically guarantees that groups will adhere to whatever the 'meta' happens to be at a given point in time.

There's also the nature of difficulty in FFXIV. The dodge-heavy and mechanic-heavy approach creates a scenario where every individual player is a potential weak link - which leads people to (rightly) mistrust a player's skill unless they've partied with them beforehand.

This lack of trust naturally lends itself to wanting every bit of margin available in a fight, i.e. attempting to adhere to the commonly accepted strategies and setups.

All in all, I'd just chalk it up to a natural downside of SE's decisions in regards to difficulty and party size. There are also, I'm sure, other components at play, many of which have been mentioned already.

I do know, however, that this isn't an issue that can easily be fixed by balance tweaks. Even if SE somehow managed to perfectly tune the balance around the end-game content at a particular moment in time, the balance would be broken by the next update cycle.

The best we can hope for, I think, is a sort of 'balance rotation' that ensures each job gets their time in the sun every so often. I wouldn't hold my breath given SE's past performance on this front, however, even going back to FFXI.

I don't really have much sympathy really. This is how raids have been in all MMO, MOBA, any team game.

I'm forced to play SCH in my static not because I love healing but because I don't suck at it. I'd rather play RDM but no one wants a RDM right now and that's just how it is.

If you want to gear up a class you like sometimes you have to play a class you don't like. It's always been that way.

And please don't tell me "Oh I don't like to heal." Level up BRD then. No one is going to say no to brd, it will always be meta.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

And please don't tell me "Oh I don't like to heal." Level up BRD then. No one is going to say no to brd, it will always be meta.

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As an aside, please play BRD well if you’re going to level it. Running into way too many BRDs that level it because it’s “easy” or to be “meta” and they don’t even cross-role the two most basic BRD skills (Refresh/Tactician). It hurts me.

That being said, you can always form your own static to clear content with, and your static doesn’t have to be meta. Neither of the statics I’ve been in this tier have been meta (I’ve suffered all tier with no DRG), but they managed to clear content. My first made it to v3s and the one I’m in now has Neo on farm and our comp is DRK/WAR (DRK goes PLD for v4s), SCH/WHM, NIN/MNK/SMN/BRD (me). So it can be done, and there are a lot of groups out there that aren’t meta—meta is more for world-first/speed kill/parse run groups.

SE is horrible at job balancing, and I think it's on purpose. No one could nerf jobs that badly for that long and not be oblivious to it.
Case in point: WAR 2.0, PLD 3.0, BRD 3.0, DRK 4.0, SMN 4.0
There is plenty of documented evidence that certain jobs perform worse than others, and are thus shunned by the player base as not being viable (which is not true).
SE can't control how the player base reacts to their changes, but they could be much more proactive in balancing in the first place to avoid such problems in the first place.
I'm guessing there's little or no money in the budget for proper testing. It's no wonder they enrage many of their users nearly every major expansion.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

snip

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And to add to this, the pseudo-static I'm in decided to go really off the beaten path for O4S (mostly as a joke, but we figured we'd try it and see what went down). 2 PLDs, 2 WHMs, 4 BRDs. We tried a few times then decided "Hmm, let's try and get as close to a traditional party setup as possible" (we still had 2 BRDs because they both only had BRD levelled and we don't like excluding people). Still struggled, but the party synergy was there. This is all people who we've previously partied with (or are trusted friends of people we've partied with), so we know what we're getting in for. Because of this, it also enables us to just go off the beaten path, because it's a more friendly environment.

I know I have some reading to do to catch up, but based on the title and the first few posts, I’m gonna add in my preliminary thoughts, because I’ve seen exclusion as well. I really don’t know why people are so caught up in meta, because FFXIV doesn’t have a true meta. There is party synergy, and that’s a different story altogether, but a party that isn’t pre-made that excludes certain classes based on buff utility are usually trap parties. NA/EU groups are the most guilty of it. I shouldn’t have to switch to a class that I don’t know just to be able to do a fight. Sure, it’s easy to create a PF, but the raiding scene is on a break right now, so there aren’t quite as many raiding players as there were around the 4.1 patch.

I have to repeat myself because these are the forums and some people do like to nitpick certain words: this is not talking about premades, and now that I think about it, it doesn’t include statics either. This comment was mostly about pugs and randoms putting up a party in the PF.

Always noticed a SAM created pf that exclued MNK just for getting the striking gears for themselves.
Parse Run that need utility-wise aside.
Yes,Its their PF so they have all the right to be selfish.
Also I have all the right to say that to their faces that they’re selfish as well.
These pf leaders always do crap dps that’s why they need meta to carried them through the fight.
Pathetic if you ask me.

On Primal I don't really see much job blocking...only very rarely.

It is usually like they'll block out certain jobs because they already have one in the party and don't want to stack same jobs which seems fine to me... even I do that sometimes to avoid losing LB speed.

Only other thing was the meta speed run groups, but honestly I only see those like 1 out of 20-30 PFs for savage farms etc. So I haven't seen it as an issue since there is tons of other parties I could join on my RDM even though it isn't meta. Some speed run groups don't even run meta since I've seen groups take WHM, SAM, and RDM etc even though they aren't meta.

I can usually join groups on whatever job I want unless they don't want to stack jobs, which I just make my own PF or wait for another one. I don't see discrimination as a problem in my experience on my data center anyway. I've personally never seen groups only lock out SAM and BLM, but it may happen as to not stack people rolling for the same loot type too, can't do much about that. Like I have seen a group lock out BLM and SMN, but one of the current members was a RDM and likely it was blocked due to gear lots and/or not stacking casters.

I've been farming quite a bit since the unlock and I join on RDM which isn't meta and I also see tons of SAMs. In fact there is usually at least one SAM in the group (if not two) when I farm savage. BLM I don't see as often, but the PFs I join have never blocked BLM out so far for me either. SAM seems to be very popular since I see them everywhere.

I mean I personally don't think locking certain jobs out simply to avoid stacking same jobs or stacking too many people rolling on the same loot is discrimination since it has nothing to do with the job's toolkit...simply that people don't want to have to roll against someone else for loot and/or don't want to stack same jobs for LB etc. It isn't the same thing as locking a job out because the person hosting thinks that job is weak or not meta etc which is more akin to actual discrimination.

In the end though people can make PFs however they want, that is why PF is there. I don't play on EU DC, but 80% seems kind of farfetched. Is your experience really 80% of groups won't take SAM? Minus the groups that won't take SAM because there is already one in the group? That seems unbelievably high.

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

IAlso MNK and MCH.are 100% fine....idk why people still think they're bad lol. Old judgements die hard.

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This. Captured my sentiments as a MCH perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Miste

...
In the end though people can make PFs however they want, that is why PF is there. I don't play on EU DC, but 80% seems kind of farfetched. Is your experience really 80% of groups won't take SAM? Minus the groups that won't take SAM because there is already one in the group? That seems unbelievably high.

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It's not farfetched, since there are not many raiders left, like Kaiva mentioned as well - plus, a lot of people seemed to jump straight up to o4s (which means there are usually a lot of o4s groups and less of v1, v2 and v3). Sometimes it's even hard to fill a group on a saturday night. If the active population would be at normal levels, then of course the number would be lower. But yes, I can definitely say out of 10 groups there are 6-7 with role restrictions; which means 60%-70%.
The problem exists, nevertheless.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I believe that the developers are planning to address a lot of the issues surrounding BLM right now, but I think the purpose of jobs like BLM and SAM are that their personal DPS serves as the “utility” they bring. But, unfortunately, a lot of groups much prefer the types of utility from jobs like NIN and BRD/MCH (hence why those three are meta), and the buffs from NIN and DRG (so, again, meta). And it’s fine if the devs want BLM/SAM to just be these godly, monstrous DPS machines, but, as it stands now, they really aren’t. Like I stated earlier, a skilled MNK can easily keep up with an equally-skilled SAM (there isn’t a terrible difference in the two’s personal DPS), and SMN just stomps all over BLM in terms of damage AND utility right now.

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Agreed. Samurai are certainly no monstrous DPS machines compared to other jobs like MNK, if they are well played. Which is a problem since that's what SE seemingly had in mind, that Samurai would be equally valuable even without buff because of their dps output.

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Originally Posted by Bobs

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If you want to gear up a class you like sometimes you have to play a class you don't like. It's always been that way.

And please don't tell me "Oh I don't like to heal." Level up BRD then. No one is going to say no to brd, it will always be meta.

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That's your choice. I am playing this game for the fun of it, I am raiding because it's rewarding and fun. I am playing a class I am determined to nail 100%. Suggesting to me that I should just play BRD tells me that you haven't really understood where I am coming from, neither that you have put the effort in and read what has been said in this thread.
And it's actually not true: WoW had (not sure if present tense would be correct since I didn't play it in a while) raid wide buffs for every class.

Also, my static never forced me to play anything particular. We had players who had levelled multiple classes so we could switch depending on need, but that someone forces you into a job sounds a bit dodgy to me. I am totally agreeing with @HyoMinPark - what he/she said about statics.

I discriminate against people who discriminate. Does this make me a monster?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Also MNK and MCH.are 100% fine....idk why people still think they're bad lol. Old judgements die hard.

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... I can already hear the Monk in my static screaming while digging for his essay on why Monk is definitely not fine. At least not design wise. :p

MCH is pretty damn solid though.

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Originally Posted by AmaSagahl

I am playing this game for the fun of it, I am raiding because it's rewarding and fun. I am playing a class I am determined to nail 100%.

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The point is that there are currently 15 jobs in the game. Of those, 2 are currently in a bad place and may have more difficulty finding a group (on your datacenter). Given that the game makes it easy to play multiple jobs, isn't it possible that you could have fun on one of the other 13 jobs until SE fixes your main? Nobody's trying to tell you not to love SAM, just that you might be able to have more fun with the game right now by trying something else in the meantime.

When you talk about "discrimination" you speak as though SAM is your identity. A lot of the endgame playerbase doesn't see things that way. They're seeing you as a player, one who has the option to play any of the 15 jobs. They aren't saying no to you as a person, just no to you joining on SAM.

IMO, don't waste your time with people who is obsessed with the "BiS" raid setup. They hunt the numbers, not the clears/fun of the game.

I'll tell you my personal experience in FFXIV.

I've been raiding since 2.0 and never stopped, and I only had 2 statics, both with the same mentality: recruit the person, not the job.
Since then I've been completting the raids in time on every patch, cleared every single content and stuff, made friends, went with them to fanfest etc... and I'm still raiding with my static. We're not a "BiS" setup, and yet we clear content fast.


On the other hand, I've seen statics and even Free Companies who were obsessed aiming to be "the best" in raiding, being toxic and prepotent with their own members. These statics/FCs end up disapearing in a few weeks/months. Their own lack of understanding and their obsession with numbers makes them forget the objective of this game.

It's always the same behaviour:
- Look for the BiS party
- Make enemies on their way
- Complete content fast
- Leave the game because they're bored (even raiding)
- Come back after months and restart


So yeah, just let them be what they are, they're not going to change, don't let them change you. Just keep playing what you really enjoy.