Tank BIS is crafted acc's, that's a problem.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

I don't think augmented chest is better than savage, but until the BiS solver ppl are making are finished we can't say for sure.

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It is because the ss on the chest is weighted extremely low for that threshold. You get more sub stat weight from the crit ten tome chest.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

That what I figured out for bis. Really don't need crafted accessories they won't make much of a difference world first has come and gone.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1201R

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can someone explain to me why is this bis? I though sks was useless and should be avoided by tanks, and I though we already stablished that tenasity build vs crit build is only a 1.5% dps loss in trade for mitigation and extraheals which to me is much better than having a measly 1.5%extra dps. But if I'm wrong please explain because I'm confuse as we keep changing the sensus on stats.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

can someone explain to me why is this bis? I though sks was useless and should be avoided by tanks, and I though we already stablished that tenasity build vs crit build is only a 1.5% dps loss in trade for mitigation and extraheals which to me is much better than having a measly 1.5%extra dps. But if I'm wrong please explain because I'm confuse as we keep changing the sensus on stats.

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It's not bis.

What do you think the likelihood of them changing this would be? Currently if you drop x million gil you get BiS immediately which makes all of O1S and the glaze from O2S useless (outside of belt) because the gains are not near as strong as overmelds. 1 Strength per 10 ilvls is way to low, they don't want us to scale like dps but they get 7 per 10 ilvls at this tier so the difference for their 320 to 340 is 14 which makes 340 better than overmelded 320. Couldn't they just add 5 str per 10 ilvls making 340 be 10 str difference from the 320 acc? I believe this would easily make the 340 better than overmelded 320 and keep tanks from scaling better than dps.

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Originally Posted by Dj_Seaghost

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The situation is as it is because SE never intended to have tanks with so much AP, ie the current savage content was not balanced for it.
They only gave us the minimum to match the i270 STR accessories to avoid the situation where we're all go to raid with old 270 STR right side.
Similarly, they put the minimum STR increase on 330/340 ilvl so we wouldn't be too powerful for the designed content.
There's no indication that the 1 str per 10 ilvl scaling is going to be the norm ongoing.
We can only hope that the current situation is an exception and that the next savage tier will be designed with more STR progression from ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

That's not bis. Swap the pants and head. The only bis raid piece is pants all else is augmented and you do need full crafted accessories.
Bis= best in slot for the highest damage possible from gear.
Not taking full crafted makes it by definition, not Bis.

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You get more HP with 340 acc so I would go for that. If you want more HP and reduce the chance that you die then they are bis. If you want less hp and more damage then get crafted ones, but to me having less hp isn't best.

I already got the pants drop in the raid so I am not even going to bother getting the other one. As for the head I don't have either yet crit and skill speed is probably better then det and tenacity, since tenacity was found to not have much effect at all and crit is still better then det.

I don't think crafted accessories being BiS is outright a problem, but I do think the way they handled scaling is a massive problem.

In all honesty, I wouldn't be opposed to some gear being crafted via materials obtained from Savage fights.

I need to spend 15 millions to get enough materia to overmeld all my accessories, so yes its a huge problem :(

TBH I am opting for the ghetto build and I am still doing huge DPS anyway. The ideal substats is more for people who want to push that small increase on DPS and nothing else.

It is going to take me more time to write this post than the amount of time you will have saved in a fight with 1.5% more damage. So like... maybe don't spend millions of gil on such a small increase?

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

It's fact, tenacity is a sub optimal stat. The damage reduction is miniscule and will not affect you in the slightest. This game is based on big attacks that you CD through. A stat like ten just doesn't really have a place with the way damage comes out. There is no such demonstration that shows ten is a good stat. It's not a terrible one but damage is king period end of story there is no possible debate to this fact. Coming back to the point, because damage us king crafted is bis and will be continue to be for the entirety of the expansion if scaling stays the same.

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I disagree. Tanks tank, damage should be a secondary priority.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

I disagree. Tanks tank, damage should be a secondary priority.

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Most including me disagree with you

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Originally Posted by AlisonDilaurentis

Most including me disagree with you

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Probably. And that's okay.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

Probably. And that's okay.

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In endgame content, your tanks damage (just like your healers damage) are expected to be above a set dps number to push phases and better overall skill yourself as a player to play your job to the best of it's abilities in tanking and dpsing. And it's a expectation in a standard static. Maybe not for PF and DF, but in statics, yes. Unless it's a very new static, this method hasn't changed since Coil. Literally, nothing has changed about this since coil.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

It is going to take me more time to write this post than the amount of time you will have saved in a fight with 1.5% more damage. So like... maybe don't spend millions of gil on such a small increase?

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Spending millions is justified if you want it. Speedruns for one ideally would be the main point for now, and in 4.1 is the super savage where all that matters is your skill and the BiS list.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

I disagree. Tanks tank, damage should be a secondary priority.

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Another one doesn't know how to tank in FFXIV.

DPS numbers ain't everything. See, if you just have enough iLvL and can contribute enough to win the raid, then all that gears and BiS stuff won't even matter! I'll just stick to the gears I got from both Creation, Omega, and EX runs to get myself geared up.

Crafted gears are a thing but it's never a necessity. Its price are high for a good reason; because it helps to ensure that crafted gears are but an option, to cater to every crafters who worked hard to create the gear, is healthy for the economy, AND also inspires people to craft! Tank BiS being crafted is a good thing. It rewards people who have spent and worked hard to reach that point and is rewarded handsomely for it.

All the while, you still have the option to just get the gears from raids and creations and clear that very same content. I think SE is doing a good job with gear balancing with consideration to economy.

Min-maxing will always exist, even if just for the sake of a tiny % gain on output (dps, mitigation, heal, whatever contributes to faster clears). Considering the low difficulty level of current savage contents, competing for kill speed and dps via fflogs is probably the only challenge left for some of us in this game. Being competitive is natural for some people, that's why you see competitions for nearly every activity imaginable, from math/science olympiads, sports competitions, multiplayer games, heck people even compete for records in single player games (high score, fastest clear). If you're not into speedkill race then you don't have to worry about BiS, but for some of us that care, contributing barely enough to clear the raid isn't enough. We'll put effort into shaving that 1 second off our group's kill time.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

I disagree. Tanks tank, damage should be a secondary priority.

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Yes, and?

Of course damage is second priority. However, most good tanks learned how to tank and do tanky-things forever ago, and frankly the mere act of holding aggro, positioning, and mitigating damage is extremely easy. So believe it or not, even aggressive tanks consider damage second priority, its just we complete our first priority very quickly and move on.

Sitting there dwelling on or struggling to meet that first priority isn't indicative of skill or being more in touch with tanking as a job, its just an inability or refusal to remove training wheels. Tenacity is the tread on those wheels.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Another one doesn't know how to tank in FFXIV.

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Yes. This comment totally adds anything of worth to the conversation.

Rude.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Yes, and?

Of course damage is second priority. However, most good tanks learned how to tank and do tanky-things forever ago, and frankly the mere act of holding aggro, positioning, and mitigating damage is extremely easy. So believe it or not, even aggressive tanks consider damage second priority, its just we complete our first priority very quickly and move on.

Sitting there dwelling on or struggling to meet that first priority isn't indicative of skill or being more in touch with tanking as a job, its just an inability or refusal to remove training wheels. Tenacity is the tread on those wheels.

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I haven't tanked end game content yet, but it just seems common sense to me. What's a tank worth when he's dead ya know?

I can imagine str or dh being better if you already know the fights and know what you'll have to endure, but we don't when it comes to upcoming content, do we?

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

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Welcome to the OF where everyone is a world class speedrunner and 1-2% dps increase will divide good tanks from bad tank...

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Welcome to the OF where everyone is a world class speedrunner and 1-2% dps increase will divide good tanks from bad tank...

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Ah, the ol' mentality of "if you're not at 105% efficiency you are a piece of retarded gutter trash that doesn't deserve to breathe air." My quoting you is not an accusation of thinking this way, just to be clear.

And here I was hoping the fact that dead stats no longer exist would start to curb it.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

And here I was hoping the fact that dead stats no longer exist would start to curb it.

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You would think it would curb it but sadly it just ain't the case.
People are willingly over crediting the value of optimum vs sub optimal stats to fuel right vs wrong arguments and boost personal ego.
Reality is that you can still reach 97-99 percentile stacking sub-optimal stats (Tenacity/SkS) based on skill alone (and of course, clear any content).
But yeah, you'll want a true BiS set to shave off 5s of a fight or break into the higher ranking of 99 percentiles or even 100%.

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Originally Posted by AlisonDilaurentis

Most including me disagree with you

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I think most would agree that tanking damage is more important than dealing it. If you can't tank damage properly then you are wasting healer mana/dps time, endangering your group, and a dead tank is far more likely to cause a wipe than anything else.

I think the discussion is more about how important damage is as a second priority and how much damage mitigation you need before you pursue damage at its expense.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

I haven't tanked end game content yet, but it just seems common sense to me. What's a tank worth when he's dead ya know?

I can imagine str or dh being better if you already know the fights and know what you'll have to endure, but we don't when it comes to upcoming content, do we?

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The current end game content has been out for over 5 weeks, idk what upcoming content you're talking about. The next patch (4.1) won't be here until like 2 months from now, when people talk about BiS they're talking about BiS for the current 5 savage fights we have now.

The extra tenacity you gain from a full tenacity build over the predicted BiS (dps wise) is like 3% worth of extra mitigation, it's nowhere near enough to affect your mitigation planning or your healers' heal planning. Taking 1200 less dmg on a 40k tank buster won't suddenly make you able to tank it without your usual cooldowns, and your healers won't suddenly do one less cure/benefic on you.

Also,

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

I disagree. Tanks tank, damage should be a secondary priority.

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you make it sound like tanks who stack direct hit over tenacity don't know how to mitigate damage. Any extra mitigation on top of the bare minimum you need to survive in a content can be valued based on the extra safety net they offer, and the extra healer dps they afford. If staying in tank stance and stacking up tenacity is optimal, as in, the extra healer dps they can get would outweigh your personal dps loss, most of the top speedkill groups would have done that. Their tanks can stay in dps stance 100% of the time and stack direct hit, do 95+ percentile dps while still allowing both their healers do 95+ percentile dps as well. They don't neglect their job, they're just optimizing for the highest group dps since they want the shortest kill time possible. Extra tankiness doesn't make the boss die faster.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Yes, and?

Of course damage is second priority. However, most good tanks learned how to tank and do tanky-things forever ago, and frankly the mere act of holding aggro, positioning, and mitigating damage is extremely easy. So believe it or not, even aggressive tanks consider damage second priority, its just we complete our first priority very quickly and move on.

Sitting there dwelling on or struggling to meet that first priority isn't indicative of skill or being more in touch with tanking as a job, its just an inability or refusal to remove training wheels. Tenacity is the tread on those wheels.

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Yes this. Positioning, Aggro, and managing defensive CDs for busters are obviously the top priority. And good tanks can do all of those things in their sleep. Even more so with things like Diversion and Shirk, makes aggro management a snoozefest. So what are you left to do? You start asking yourself "ok, how can I improve?"

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Originally Posted by Felorr

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Shirk is by far my best friend in this game on tank. I love this skill on tank so much lol. Especially when tank swaps or something happens and need to have other tank take over a moment or two.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

I can imagine str or dh being better if you already know the fights and know what you'll have to endure, but we don't when it comes to upcoming content, do we?

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Strength and Direct Hit will almost definitely remain the best melds throughout the entirety of 4.x unless they go back to giving us partial vitality to damage, which I do not see happening. Hit points are only important up to the point where they let you survive the tank busters, with anything much past that just being pointless.

The idea that tanking means only soaking up hits and holding aggro simply doesn't work in this game since tanks basically function as DPS with extra responsibilities.

does anyone has a actuall number crushed factual data of how much dps increase is the crafted ACC over 340 alternative BIS? because as I'm Looking at it while I'm a crafter and i can easily get the rings the overmelds are crazier than getting crafting overmelds idk who though overmelding a grade 6 for 17% was somehow sane maybe on some servers are cheap and there's farily enough ways to get grade 6 but this overmelds are insane.

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Originally Posted by LittleSparrow

I haven't tanked end game content yet, but it just seems common sense to me. What's a tank worth when he's dead ya know?

I can imagine str or dh being better if you already know the fights and know what you'll have to endure, but we don't when it comes to upcoming content, do we?

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I encourage you to go try out O1S while it is current tier. Alte Roite has a substantial amount of HP to burn through before enrage, as well as tankbuster checks which are predictable and relatively easy to meet.

Every chunk of DPS you can spare is important. My first recorded kill on FFLogs shows Grit uptime to be low; the boss just does not threaten you unless it is performing Twinbolt, Wyrmtail, or Charybdis combos.

Staying in permanent tank stance for O1S offers little value when you know where the damage spikes come. My recorded kill went to 9:21, a mere 20 seconds away from enrage. While overall damage was low, I would like to think that staying in Grit for the entire fight would have caused that attempt to fail the enrage check at 9:40.

I did use Grit more frequently when learning the fight, but the kill ultimately required watertight gameplay and damage optimization. To that end I will continue melding Strength and Direct Hit wherever I can; Tenacity melds will merely be my budget option/backup plan for hard hitting fights.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

does anyone has a actuall number crushed factual data of how much dps increase is the crafted ACC over 340 alternative BIS? because as I'm Looking at it while I'm a crafter and i can easily get the rings the overmelds are crazier than getting crafting overmelds idk who though overmelding a grade 6 for 17% was somehow sane maybe on some servers are cheap and there's farily enough ways to get grade 6 but this overmelds are insane.

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Not really on how much dps increase but the math should be pretty simple. +2 Strength(340) vs +76 Direct Hit(320 crafted)

I don't really see it as much of a problem as the OT though, because most tanks that will worry about these extra stats would already pick up the crafted accessories ANYWAY when starting a new tier to be on the cutting edge.

On one hand you can consider it as a minor dps gain for a very big cost, if you're assuming you have the i340 accessories, but on the other hand you can consider it a head start over other jobs/roles, since by the first few days after patch you can get "almost half" of your BiS already, and you can allocate your o1s books for other jobs. For serious raiders who don't get a late start, they'll probably already have the pentamelded accessories long before they can have full i340 right side, for the more casual raiders, probably the few % dps difference won't matter enough to warrant the cost.

Honestly... I'm just waiting for them to realize that no matter how much they try to change it, the player base will always consider DPS the most important factor. Either completely railroad it or build the role around the players, otherwise the debate is going to continue to rage and we get nowhere.

[Q] Why most of tanks who are using for example hq crafted rings melts into them 2x40 dh+2x12 dh wouldn't 2x40dh + 2x40 crit be better?

You can only overmeld tier VI materia once, so your meld will be str VI + dh VI + dh V + dh V + dh V.

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Originally Posted by Asaemon

[Q] Why most of tanks who are using for example hq crafted rings melts into them 2x40 dh+2x12 dh wouldn't 2x40dh + 2x40 crit be better?

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Tanks can't achieve yet the amount of Crit where it becomes worthwhile.
You need a combined value of 3500 DH+Crit for crit to be better.
Next raid tier it might be a good stats for tanks.

so I've been reading around and the best I could find was a paladin BIS guide https://www.mooglemedia.com/pld-bis/ In wich the 340 alternative over the fully pentamelded 320 set is only a -1.03% of total value, I don't know if this is dps or something else I'm guessing it is dps since this BIS is oviously aimimbg for the highest damage output. that bein said 10+kk gil for 1.03% damage increase and a significant HP decrease while you could have gotten it earlier I think it's just a wasted of money I'd hardly call it BIS but I wont argue with the community consensus since it's obviously a unpopular opinion that anything that does less damage is bis.

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Originally Posted by Thela

Not really on how much dps increase but the math should be pretty simple. +2 Strength(340) vs +76 Direct Hit(320 crafted)

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main stats scale way more than substats so is not that easy of a math.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

main stats scale way more than substats so is not that easy of a math.

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No, it really is that simple. You can pretty easily model the effect of +mainstat, and then compare that to the expected return of a substat. There are spreadsheet models for comparing gear like this already out there.

As for OP: SE just needs to either revert to the old 3.2 scaling and just add more STR than VIT if they're worried about HP pool bloat, or alternatively, just cap out STR on our accessories and be done with it. The +14 STR on the accessories would easily out strip the DH gain on the crafted pieces and everything would be hunky dory.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

No, it really is that simple.

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I can't find such spreadsheet and if what I said in my previous post is anything to go by is not that simple as full 340 vs 320 is a mere 1.03% damage increase you change the +2str to +3 and I think 340 set would be BIS maybe you know how it works more than I do and seems straigh foward but I've never digged into theorycraft so I have no clue how it scales off so is not so easy to make a solid assumption by just looking at the amount of substats vs mainstats.

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

I can't find such spreadsheet and if what I said in my previous post is anything to go by is not that simple as full 340 vs 320 is a mere 1.03% damage increase you change the +2str to +3 and I think 340 set would be BIS maybe you know how it works more than I do and seems straigh foward but I've never digged into theorycraft so I have no clue how it scales off so is not so easy to make a solid assumption by just looking at the amount of substats vs mainstats.

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1% direct hit is .25% damage increase on average.

Each melded accessory gives about 1.9% direct hit chance. Full right side is about 9.5% DH or around 2.4% DPS increase.

The strength upgrade would be +10 over a previous strength around 2000, or about a .5% increase.