Is SE really going to repeat the foruma from 2.0 and 3.0???

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

That is because there will only ever be one rotation to do, with the same abilities to do. One gear set to get, one weapon to get. One way to meld. There is no room for customization or trying new things out. As a result any and all jobs will always lack depth. This is why certain jobs like SMN have such issues and always have people complaining about it. Not because they're entitled but because SMN is the perfect reflection of this games flaws. It is a job that by it's very nature requires depth and variety. But like all my previous examples. This game has proven to have no depth or variety. No options. No choice. Just gather, recycle, rinse and repeat.

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It's like you're play an MMO or something.

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Originally Posted by Kaiden019

It's like you're play an MMO or something.

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Most other MMO's offer choice and variety in some form. Even if it is just "smoke and mirrors". FF14 is the only MMO that I have played (and I have played many) that makes no attempt to offer choice to the player beyond superficial things like glamour. Where are the skill trees? Attribute points? Gear choices? Weapon choices? Set bonuses? the list goes on. SB doesn't even have a proper raid anymore. Omega is literally 4 trial fights. They could be added to Trial Roulette today and fit just fine. It is not a Raid by any definition of the word. They are trials. Every other MMO around at least offers these things in some form. FF14 does not. Therefore it is linear. An MMO should never be linear. This is not FF13.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Most other MMO's offer choice and variety in some form. Even if it is just "smoke and mirrors". FF14 is the only MMO that I have played (and I have played many) that makes no attempt to offer choice to the player beyond superficial things like glamour. Where are the skill trees? Attribute points? Gear choices? Weapon choices? Set bonuses? the list goes on. SB doesn't even have a proper raid anymore. Omega is literally 4 trial fights. They could be added to Trial Roulette today and fit just fine. It is not a Raid by any definition of the word. They are trials. Every other MMO around at least offers these things in some form. FF14 does not. Therefore it is linear. An MMO should never be linear. This is not FF13.

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Couldn't agree more. There is no diversity in this game, until they get rid of the archaic holy trinity, you'll never get it. You'll never get a true support job. Gear is disposable. It doesn't stay relievent. It truly is SSDD syndrome.

They should really take a look at how diverse the job system was in XI and bring that to XIV. I'm not saying copy and paste, cause you know some snowflake will take umbridge. But I'd rather have a diverse job system, than the boring and dull one we have atm. Every player has the same rotation. You must have the must have role skills. Same way to meld, because this community is so toxic if you try to deviate, you're basically branded a heathen and slandered until you conform.

It's only a few weeks in and I'm already getting terribly bored of this endgame system. Just grind monotonous dungeons for tomes or do savage... that's all there is for gear progression. I really wish they figure something else out lol. Bring a Mythic+ system in or HNMs or Salvage like system.. do something, i beg you!!!

The game is fun until you hit lvl 70 and your left either collecting tomes or doing savage ad nauseam.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You make it sound like capping tomes is difficult. Between hunts, daily roulettes, raids, PotD, PvP and the level 70 dungeons offering 50 tomes per each, it's incredibly easy to cap even if you do it on a Monday evening. Removing the cap may allow for flexibility but it assures players will stop queuing for content. I can guarantee you Omega normal would be dead within a month or two if you could spam it for all the drops you fancy. Likewise, what motivation do I have to keep running dungeons if I can gather tomestones at my leisure? Furthermore, unlimited tomestones renders crafted gear and the 24 man raids absolutely worthless. Who would buy crafted some if they could just farm Creation tomes whenever they felt like? The system exists to keep people running content. You may be discourage, but the majority aren't.

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I don't know how you got the idea that I think capping tomes is difficult. I briefly explained why a restriction hurts the game, hunts for one would be pointless outside the token you get for materia, that added benefit allows them to stay attractive, and the fact the token drop isn't restricted per week or day helps create a constant flow of upgrades. I even touched on how a uncapped tome system encourages dungeon runs, no tome limit plus the promised gear drop, encourages more runs, glamor alone drives people to do content this is a proven fact, when it's paired with being able to keep classes geared up with current gear it doesn't form a negative impact on player sustainability.

PvP has uncapped wolf marks and players still farm it for that reason, though PvP is a touchy subject, more so based on how unbalanced it is and how unrefined it plays, PvP still gets plenty attention from the player base. PvP still has many people running it for exclusive items and bragging rights across the board, and PvP also encourages players to try new classes much more effectively than any PvE content. Again no weekly tome system.

Crafted gear is also touchy, many players myself included think crafted gear should be much more attractive, but it isn't, it's nearly pointless outside of HQ and if it didn't have the ability to be melded as much as it did, the gear would be dead on arrival. Same with 24 man raids, that gear has always been catch up gear with the option to upgrade tome gear.

PotD is successful due to the glaring fact you can run it as many times as you want, get unlimited chests, level up fast because of player drought in dungeons, and earn new rewards. But nothing has a limit on it.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I don't know how you got the idea that I think capping tomes is difficult.

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You asked how the cap gives you time to do other things. I cap weekly without even meaning to just by playing the game itself. I haven't even done roulettes much in two weeks. If you miss a week, it's because you didn't play at some point. Which is fine, but that is not the system's fault.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Most other MMO's offer choice and variety in some form. Even if it is just "smoke and mirrors". FF14 is the only MMO that I have played (and I have played many) that makes no attempt to offer choice to the player beyond superficial things like glamour. Where are the skill trees? Attribute points? Gear choices? Weapon choices? Set bonuses? the list goes on. SB doesn't even have a proper raid anymore. Omega is literally 4 trial fights. They could be added to Trial Roulette today and fit just fine. It is not a Raid by any definition of the word. They are trials. Every other MMO around at least offers these things in some form. FF14 does not. Therefore it is linear. An MMO should never be linear. This is not FF13.

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Those other MMOs also lock you into a single class per character. FFXIV essentially treats its job flexibility as skill trees. Adding varying branches to each job would triple the workload. Now you have to balance Dragoon as a DPS, tank or support DPS. Instead, they promote switching jobs. That, however, comes with some limitations. You cannot just abruptly decide to change your main and have the best gear available.

As for gear choices and set bonuses. Let's be honest. How much impact does those actually have? Blade & Soul has the aforementioned skill trees as does Black Desert. Both were micromanaged within days of release and everyone copied the hardcore PvP builds that were posted on reddit. While some games do it better than others, more often than not it's an illusion of choice. Say they made Dragoon a tank, but it was superior as a support melee DPS and not up to par with Warrior. Very few people will bother changing it to tank; less will bring it to raids.

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

This is a subscription based game. The weekly caps are there so you have to play every week and pay your monthly sub.

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Yes and Yoshi said this game isn't a game people should play a lot of.
But he wants us to sub just to play a few hours per day/week? :/
Stop BLOCKING us from playing the game all the time. The tomes crap is ridiculous.
People are gonna get bored whether not they cap. I don't even bother to cap some times
because it's just so boring. Endgame doesn't feel fun anymore. I'm now 70 WHM and now I'ma shelf the job
and start another because I enjoy leveling Jobs up, getting new skills, learning new rotations than:

Fight dude who looks like Kain Highwind 2139012903 times.
Fight some magic MNK 12321 times ( I barely ever get Temple in DF lol.)
Fight Yocheapo 1239012309 times.
Slap a dragon, slap an eyeball, slap Harlequinn, slap Sky blue Voidman, then be done for the week.
Lak and Brosanoo are okay for acc's but I can't be fooked with the idiotic %.1 droprates of a Dog.

The end-game is unchanged and they NEED to fix it...You don't need to be an Oracle to see what's next
on the agenda for months to come either...Just add more to keep us subbed instead of silly restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Those other MMOs also lock you into a single class per character. FFXIV essentially treats its job flexibility as skill trees. Adding varying branches to each job would triple the workload. Now you have to balance Dragoon as a DPS, tank or support DPS. Instead, they promote switching jobs. That, however, comes with some limitations. You cannot just abruptly decide to change your main and have the best gear available.

As for gear choices and set bonuses. Let's be honest. How much impact does those actually have? Blade & Soul has the aforementioned skill trees as does Black Desert. Both were micromanaged within days of release and everyone copied the hardcore PvP builds that were posted on reddit. While some games do it better than others, more often than not it's an illusion of choice. Say they made Dragoon a tank, but it was superior as a support melee DPS and not up to par with Warrior. Very few people will bother changing it to tank; less will bring it to raids.

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I can understand your perspective on playing multiple jobs being an answer to skill trees. But I must disagree that multiple jobs and skill trees are the same thing. Furthermore not all those other MMO's lock you to a single class. PSO2 is the perfect example of this. In fact PSO2 in many ways is the perfect example of why FF14 has no excuse for it's lack of choice and options. SE is a multi billion dollar company, that is well known around the world. FF is a multi million dollar franchise that is beloved around the world. FF14 is one of the top MMO's atm. Not only that but it's a subscription based MMO, bringing in a lot of revenue for SE. It also has a successful cash shop bringing in more revenue. Yet how come a game like PSO2 that is not as well known. That isn't available and played worldwide. That isn't bringing in as much revenue (because it is a free to play game) can still bring all this depth, choice and diversity, that FF14 refuses to do even slightly. FF11 is another perfect example btw.

My point is almost every other MMO out there is offering these options to the people (Even free to play MMO's!) Even if they're just "smoke and mirrors" as I said. Of course these options are not always just "smoke and mirrors" though and are actually important parts of making an MMO what they are.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

I can understand your perspective on playing multiple jobs being an answer to skill trees. But I must disagree that multiple jobs and skill trees are the same thing. Furthermore not all those other MMO's lock you to a single class. PSO2 is the perfect example of this. In fact PSO2 in many ways is the perfect example of why FF14 has no excuse for it's lack of choice and options. SE is a multi billion dollar company, that is well known around the world. FF is a multi million dollar franchise that is beloved around the world. FF14 is one of the top MMO's atm. Not only that but it's a subscription based MMO, bringing in a lot of revenue for SE. It also has a successful cash shop bringing in more revenue. Yet how come a game like PSO2 that is not as well known. That isn't available and played worldwide. That isn't bringing in as much revenue (because it is a free to play game) can still bring all this depth, choice and diversity, that FF14 refuses to do even slightly.

My point is almost every other MMO out there is offering these options to the people (Even free to play MMO's!) Even if they're just "smoke and mirrors" as I said. Of course these options are not always just "smoke and mirrors".

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I know what you mean. Having played Pso2 the customisation and skill trees, far outweigh the lackluster tripe we have at the moment.
Take merits from XI you could customise your job the way you wanted you where not all the same. Gearsets. Even in Pso2 you have your rainbow pallette, where's the elemental diversity? Fire damaging fire? Last I checked in single player incarnations of FF that healed. Nothing about this game is diverse, when it comes to its job system. Everyone is herded into doing the same thing, essentially we are prized cattle. Content wise the game is dull. It really is a copy and paste format and I really don't think it's going to stand the test of time.

Even if it's a illusion of choice I gravitate more to those type of games with set bonuses/choices. This is why I can put down this game easily after I've finish the main story and raid normal story and play something else until next story patch. I imo don't consider this a mmo to me it's more like a single player game with mutiplayer feature with very basic gear options. /Shrug that my two cents take it as you will still like the game don't get me wrong I just get more burnt out quickly with this game compare to others.

I've never had issues gearing multiple jobs even with weekly lockouts in place. However, I don't limit myself just to tomestone gear. I also utilize crafted gear, primal drops, 8-man normal mode gear, Savage gear, and 24-man gear. During HW lockouts, I had tanks, healers, and my main (BRD) relatively geared before the lockouts were lifted. Currently, I have an ilvl 320 BRD, and ilvl 315 AST and RDM. AST and RDM are in a mixture of Verity, Prinal drops, and Omega normal drops. BRD is a mixture of Creation, Verity, Primal, Omega normal, and Savage. And soon to be crafted, since I am gearing crafters to make some of the 320 crafted items for her. Which means my AST and RDM will also have crafted items, and possible any unwanted Savage drops as well. Depending on what loot drops and what my static members do not want.

It isn't particularly hard to gear multiple jobs even with lockouts in place if people utilize all the different gear options available to them. I see a lot of people bringing up Tomestone caps, but Tomestone gear is not the only kind of gear available to players. If players would like faster ways to gear up, the game provides them outside of just capped Tomestone gear. But players need to be willing to utilize them.

If players don't intend to tackle Ex primals or Savage content, and just plan to do Daily Roulettes or more casual content, max ilvl is not needed. It's honestly overkill for the daily roulettes.

I've been warning others since ~2.4 that we'd be seeing nothing but reskinned 2.2 and 2.3 for the rest of the game's lifespan, with the occasional oddball content thrown in

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Originally Posted by Lollerblades

I know what you mean. Having played Pso2 the customisation and skill trees, far outweigh the lackluster tripe we have at the moment.
Take merits from XI you could customise your job the way you wanted you where not all the same. Gearsets. Even in Pso2 you have your rainbow pallette, where's the elemental diversity? Fire damaging fire? Last I checked in single player incarnations of FF that healed. Nothing about this game is diverse, when it comes to its job system. Everyone is herded into doing the same thing, essentially we are prized cattle. Content wise the game is dull. It really is a copy and paste format and I really don't think it's going to stand the test of time.

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I know right! Despite being a free to play game PSO2 offers so much in terms of job, gear, and character customization. Funnily enough even FF14 has seemingly tried to copy a number of things from PSO2. Wondrous Tails are just a direct copy of PSO2's Bingo Card system. PotD is just a copy of PSO2's Challenge Miles. Even Demi-Bahamut is just a copy of the Photon Blasts! Yet all of these things are just lesser versions of what PSO2 and other games have to offer! Where is the innovation SE!? Where is the soul!?

FFXI is another good example of job customization as you say. I loved subbing SCH as a secondary job to my SMN main. Having that extra MP pool from Sublimation via my SCH sub was amazing! and something that can only exist with job customization, diversity and variety! Which is why it is important for FF14 to make that shift. It is far more than just "Smoke and Mirrors" people.

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Originally Posted by odintius

Even if it's a illusion of choice I gravitate more to those type of games with set bonuses/choices. This is why I can put down this game easily after I've finish the main story and raid normal story and play something else until next story patch. I imo don't consider this a mmo to me it's more like a single player game with mutiplayer feature with very basic gear options. /Shrug that my two cents take it as you will still like the game don't get me wrong I just get more burnt out quickly with this game compare to others.

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I actually think FF14 would flourish far more as a single player game at this point. Or at least a semi multiplayer game, like Diablo 3 or Minecraft. Where you can just invite your friends to play with you in your own world. The MMO elements of FF14 are just sub par atm (All that nonsense with Ixion crashing games and blocking up The Lochs springs to mind. Just to name one of many examples). The things that make FF14 good are all things that would benefit more from being a single player/semi multiplayer game. Unfortunately the die has be cast at this point though, but nevertheless.

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Originally Posted by SoloWingMetatron

Most other MMO's offer choice and variety in some form. Even if it is just "smoke and mirrors". FF14 is the only MMO that I have played (and I have played many) that makes no attempt to offer choice to the player beyond superficial things like glamour. Where are the skill trees? Attribute points? Gear choices? Weapon choices? Set bonuses? the list goes on. SB doesn't even have a proper raid anymore. Omega is literally 4 trial fights. They could be added to Trial Roulette today and fit just fine. It is not a Raid by any definition of the word. They are trials. Every other MMO around at least offers these things in some form. FF14 does not. Therefore it is linear. An MMO should never be linear. This is not FF13.

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This would be the second round of someone wanting more choice. The original game had no jobs only classes, attribute points, gear choices, no weapon choices or set bonuses that I am aware of. The zones were almost seamless. SE couldn't pull it off. I don't understand how not because they did some of that with XI. I think the forums even have a tag for XI lovers something to do with causing a ruckus. All FF are pretty linear, just look at the main story in XIV, there is no deviation. I love it and I hate it.

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Originally Posted by Lollerblades

Couldn't agree more. There is no diversity in this game, until they get rid of the archaic holy trinity, you'll never get it. You'll never get a true support job. Gear is disposable. It doesn't stay relievent. It truly is SSDD syndrome.

They should really take a look at how diverse the job system was in XI and bring that to XIV. I'm not saying copy and paste, cause you know some snowflake will take umbridge. But I'd rather have a diverse job system, than the boring and dull one we have atm. Every player has the same rotation. You must have the must have role skills. Same way to meld, because this community is so toxic if you try to deviate, you're basically branded a heathen and slandered until you conform.

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This game has been going the opposite direction from XI since 1.0. I don't think they are going to reverse course at this point. I was on that trip a long time but there came a point where I just had to accept both games were different and would remain different.

The ilevel tome trip works just fine until level cap. From that point on though, it diminishes any relevant long standing content.From that point on stat growth comes in patches, you get stronger and in the process content gets obsoleted, only revisited for glamours, or tomestones.


What if?


The ilvl did not raise period, at level cap and the caps were matched to any content at whatever the max level is currently. Every raid, trial, hunt, fate,etc post 60 were raised to max current ilevel/job level/stats and it stayed there for one or two expansions.

Progression would be horizontal for that one-two expansion period, then it would get a brief update when the level and ilvl gets vertical, raises to say level 90 and then the process of everything post 60 gets kicked up to the current max ilvl/level/stats again.

Endgame content never gets obsolete per player unless they get all the gear/titles/mounts from that particular content. Each player has that feeling of working for a substantially lasting gear that means more when it isn't just a cosmetic. SE has a little less work not having to recycle or push out hundreds of pieces every patch, and the hard work they put into endgame gets used more.

But won't that put returning or new players at a disadvantage?
Yes and no imo.

Yes, because they won't get the cake handed to them to be able to participate in everything right off the back if they are not up to the current ilvl or level.

No, because even though they have to work to catch up some, anything they earn will have longer lasting relevancy.



Would that be a good thing for all players or only good for the ones who stay subscribed and work for their worth?



Which path would bring SE the most money?


The current ilvl wheel like it is now, which works but has some of the players who want more depth and time investment feeling dismay?

Or my idea, which might work might be at the dismay of new, returning, or casual players?

This is all just musing, I don't think the ship will be changing course at this point. I am happy now but could be happy in an alternative too.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I don't know how you got the idea that I think capping tomes is difficult. I briefly explained why a restriction hurts the game, hunts for one would be pointless outside the token you get for materia, that added benefit allows them to stay attractive, and the fact the token drop isn't restricted per week or day helps create a constant flow of upgrades. I even touched on how a uncapped tome system encourages dungeon runs, no tome limit plus the promised gear drop, encourages more runs, glamor alone drives people to do content this is a proven fact, when it's paired with being able to keep classes geared up with current gear it doesn't form a negative impact on player sustainability.

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You didn't touch upon anything beyond your own playstyle preferences. The devs need to consider the majority. People will not run content unless essentially bribed. For instance, very few raiders give a hoot about normal modes. They pick up crafted gear because many just can't be bothered with the easy mode equivalent. Allow them to farm drops whenever they fancy and I guarantee you normal mode Omega is dead content within a month. Why do you think they stuff mounts into practically everything? It keeps people active. The fact DPS queues jumped considerably after they slapped VI materia for "in need" bonus on leveling is a testament to that fact. Furthermore, no tomestone limitation renders crafted gear, non-augmented Omega gear and the 24 gear obsolete. I literally would have no reason to even look at Ivalice more than once since I'll have long gotten enough tomestones for every job I care about. In fact, look at Verity-- the current unrestricted tomestone. How many people at level 70 don't have all their gear at 310? It's been precisely one month and people already have multiple jobs at 310 because there's no limitation. That would occur if Creation were also uncapped, except unlike Verity, it's supposed to maintain relevancy for six months.

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PvP has uncapped wolf marks and players still farm it for that reason, though PvP is a touchy subject, more so based on how unbalanced it is and how unrefined it plays, PvP still gets plenty attention from the player base. PvP still has many people running it for exclusive items and bragging rights across the board, and PvP also encourages players to try new classes much more effectively than any PvE content. Again no weekly tome system.

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No they don't. I've been capped on wolf marks for months. I run PvP because I like it. The only time I cared about Wolf Marks is when I was hunting for glamours. Regardless, you just said one of the factors. People want those exclusive mounts, i.e. an incentive.

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Crafted gear is also touchy, many players myself included think crafted gear should be much more attractive, but it isn't, it's nearly pointless outside of HQ and if it didn't have the ability to be melded as much as it did, the gear would be dead on arrival. Same with 24 man raids, that gear has always been catch up gear with the option to upgrade tome gear.

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That's the point those. It gives players an option to avoid the weekly Omega lock out and gear to the ilvl requirement to enter Savage should they choose. It's stepping stones gear. The 24 man is both a catch up option and an incentive for veterans to gear their alts. As noted above, devoid of that incentive. People wouldn't have a reason to keep running them, which is how Weeping City and Dun Scaith stayed relevant several months after their release.

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PotD is successful due to the glaring fact you can run it as many times as you want, get unlimited chests, level up fast because of player drought in dungeons, and earn new rewards. But nothing has a limit on it.

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PotD is successful for its fast and efficient leveling. It would have died long ago had it not become the de facto way to level, especially as a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Princess_Momoka

So this is my first time actually starting a new expansion, for 2.0, I started at release, quit, came back, quit, Then came back to HW with void ark ending beingcurrent while few weeks before The Weeping City of Mhach. I thought to myself hmm wouldn't it be something if it stopped at a 3rd one, be a weekly for that gear, only have about 2 months to pass by, have it uncapped while this causing to make it easier to get upgrades that lets you be even on the best gear in the game?

Then I am sure they are going to double the weekly limit, then drop it completely like they did in 2.0 for the tomestones.

So starting out on unlimited tomestones I though maybe SE will take a different approach, like yellow scripts for crafting and gathering (I am not sure if that happened in 2.0 or 3.0) so I thought maybe they where going to try something different.

Now that we have a weekly cap again, are we really going to have the 3-24 man zones again, where you get a weekly gear from, have 3 sets of delta scape, while throwing in more primal here and there that drop weapons? I mean I just do not get it, why repeat the same thing, reskining what was done in 2.0 and 3.0 only different level, while having all these weekly and daily things? isn't there a better way of handling progression and not have the same thing over and over again? What is the point?

What do these weekly caps really achieve? why are they there? Why not do the same effect though weekly and daily bonuses for quests and such (think of the cluster daily/weekly for HW relics) and for those that want to gear several jobs, they can grind it out? What if some patch makes someone's job unwanted spending all those weekly limits on that job? How are they supposed to gear something else with the limits?

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As sad as it sounds, this is how the game is supposed to be. I am not here to defend the game for it, but what you are looking for is: "Why doesnt this game have more interesting gear?". I ranted about this many times and it simply isnt needed for the crowd that is playing the game.

As an example, why would you run omega normal for 320 drops when you could just get HQ 320 gear?
Because Omega stuff is free? Because you could just gather friends for it and still get said gear for free? Perhaps you dont have the crafters leveled to craft it? No gil to buy it? No contacts to hand the mats too?

What I am getting at is: If everyone would know their way around omega normal, it would be dead content in about a week, you would still need that weapon token from v4 but whats the point? If you arent doing savage then 310-320 will be fine until the next ilvl tier anyways. Its the game biggest positive point and the greatest flaw at the same time.
I could now quit until the next ilvl tier and be up to date on gear in about 1-2 weeks. So why do I tell a bunch of stuff that is very obvious anyways?

Because upping the creation tome to 900 or uncapping it, wouldnt matter in any bit for the great majority of the casual players. Since the way of quickly gearing other jobs already exists, even to a level where you are ready for almost any content in said ilvl tier, be it verity or crafted gear.

Upping the creation tome cap wont happen though since there is money involved, its the same reason why you need 7 tokens for a weapon from v4, the same reason why they havent changed the system and probably wont ever do. Why would they? The subs havent dropped enough to justify a change, new people always come in anyways and a large majority even is happy with the system because it gives them the illusion of progression - while their progression is facerolling the same ez mode dungeons for 330 gear.

I've been also subbing less and less and at times I am already thinking about subbing only when a new xpac launches for the story. Permasubbing ffxiv is the most soulless and boring grind you can do to yourself since the gear is so damn meaningless and will be always replaced anyways.

If you truly want something to change, then get everyone to quit for 2-3 months and you'll see how talkative the devs will be. Wont happen either though since one can still pretend that its "good" right? Or "hope" that it will get better eh? I mean each to his own, I cant dictate anyone how to be happy and what to do with their free time, but sometimes I am amazed how this game stays alive so well with gear progression thats as shallow as it gets.

Vote with your wallet! ;3

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Originally Posted by Princess_Momoka

Now that we have a weekly cap again, are we really going to have the 3-24 man zones again, where you get a weekly gear from, have 3 sets of delta scape, while throwing in more primal here and there that drop weapons? I mean I just do not get it, why repeat the same thing, reskining what was done in 2.0 and 3.0 only different level, while having all these weekly and daily things? isn't there a better way of handling progression and not have the same thing over and over again? What is the point?

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The gearing treadmill in this game is like a well oiled machine. They know it works well and accomplishes all the goals they could hope for, while keeping things varied enough with new content every now and again. Nobody is left too far behind for their choice of playstyle- Raiders have quicker (and broader) gearing options, while the less hardcore/social can get tome gear and 24-man gear. Primals basically become a part of raid tier progression when you think about how their weapons occasionally are worth getting before going in. Relic gear offers unique benefits for everyone involved, by the time the last patch of an expansion hits. They can more easily predict the point at which people will hit specific item levels with weekly tome/token caps. That helps to keep people busy until the next patch they release, while simultaneously pushing people to raid since it means more gear.

Basically... why fix what isn't broken? People get 'bored' with any system in any game after a couple hundred hours. There's no reason to change things up based on that, when people will just get tired with the new thing in a couple months too. That's to say, while some people might think this is running a bit stale, it's really just consistency. Which is good. They haven't stopped trying to add new content, in lieu of just pushing the same ole' same ole'. They've tried, no matter how much they fail, with Diadem, Lords of Verminion, PvP, PoTD, and the upcoming Eureka, and Super Savage.

Yeah this is pretty much it...luckilly it looks like the closed beta for FFXV Comrades is coming out soon, so that will be interesting to see. I came to terms with this since 3.x with the way the treadmill works, you just sort of wait and get easy upgrades every 6 months or so, since you go through gear and hard earned stuff like relics like they were water

Speaking as someone who's played the game fairly steadily, I like how it is now. However, I don't rush in, try to run through all the contents in a week, then quit again.

I like the idea that others have suggested about some sort of "rollover" tomes, similar to how cellular carriers go about with minutes and data, so people can gear up alts without the strict weekly countdown.

Although, they'd need to layer it with some kind of code that lets it apply only when two or more capped jobs are detected. If its just a single job, the current system is no big deal.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You didn't touch upon anything beyond your own playstyle preferences. The devs need to consider the majority. People will not run content unless essentially bribed.

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I mean, I don't necessarily think having rewards is a bad thing as not everyone will enjoy a piece of content. But I think personally for me specifically having to be bribed means I don't really enjoy the content itself.

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Originally Posted by Damona

I've been also subbing less and less and at times I am already thinking about subbing only when a new xpac launches for the story. Permasubbing ffxiv is the most soulless and boring grind you can do to yourself since the gear is so damn meaningless and will be always replaced anyways.

If you truly want something to change, then get everyone to quit for 2-3 months and you'll see how talkative the devs will be. Wont happen either though since one can still pretend that its "good" right? Or "hope" that it will get better eh? I mean each to his own, I cant dictate anyone how to be happy and what to do with their free time, but sometimes I am amazed how this game stays alive so well with gear progression thats as shallow as it gets.

Vote with your wallet! ;3

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IMO it isn't just the gear grind that's the problem. I've played korean MMOs so I actually think the way FFXIV does it is better (but not perfect). The problem for me I think is just I don't enjoy the way FFXIV is designed. Because combat is so simple, "The current end-game battle system in FFXIV can be summarized in one word: mechanics. In a boss fight, you often feel like you're not actually fighting the boss but rather the fight-specifc mechanics (aka “gimmicks”)." (That link also talks about weekly lockouts.) Like when I got Titan Hard in Trials roulette once, I used healer LB3 once and Titan hit me. We killed it anyways but the fact that you can die so easily (especially if you get a lag spike or something) and can't be resurrected seems like such an annoying gimmick. I mean, I definitely think mechanics have a place in fights, but sometimes I feel like it's too mechanic-driven.

But meh, it's working for FFXIV so what can I say.

I would love to see the tome cap and loot locked tossed or highly modified. Tossed is my first choice. Highly modified would look more like 900 tome cap for tank/healer/dps. You must play the job to get tomes in the category. Same for Omega normal and savage loot. For now I feel stuck in the tank role for gearing even though I like both playing my drk, astro and blm. The game is so massive that at the end of HW when savage was unlocked and the tome cap was raised to 900 a week. I rarely hit the cap, I was able to farm A9S and A10S for a while. Yes many unsubbed until SB but that started mid January as players in my FC took time off to play other games while waiting for SB to come out.
Some weeks I am more motivated to hit tome cap and want to keep doing certain content. Other weeks I have played other games. Or just have other things to do. I am not a fan of miss a week fall behind. I don't feel it is healthy. Players should be able to take breaks and catch up rapidly when they come back a few weeks or month later.
As a crafter I liked the uncapped red and yellow scrips. Red scrips I do the casually as I feel like it. Yellow scrips are feeling useless as the basic crafted 290 gear was far better. Maybe they could add a crafted, crafting and gathering sets that use the yellow scrips. That would be nice.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I mean, I don't necessarily think having rewards is a bad thing as not everyone will enjoy a piece of content. But I think personally for me specifically having to be bribed means I don't really enjoy the content itself.

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Let's be honest. Who does enjoy running the same content repeatedly? The devs even acknowledged when they decided to allocate dungeons resources elsewhere for odd numbered patches. Unfortunately, developers as a whole, not simply FFXIV, cannot produce enough content relatively to have fast we consume it. I wager Omega-- both Normal and Savage-- took months of development and proper testing only for the hardcore players to down it in a day and the midcore gradually push through in the space of a month or so. Perhaps bribe is the wrong term, but any MMOs has to incentivize content players otherwise wouldn't bother with again lest new players be unable to progress or said veterans have nothing else to do.

And this isn't mean necessarily defending the system. I would love to be able to have all the jobs I enjoy playing geared and ready to tackle Savage, but it just isn't feasible on a long term basis from a business perspective. Personally, I don't mind the system. My current gear is a hodgepodge of 310-320 stuff barely melded and I manage. You can absolutely go into any content and clear.

If you say people enjoy it where did the 5million people go? Unofficial census shows they leaved without saying much just like people tell them too.

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Originally Posted by Princess_Momoka

I thought to myself hmm wouldn't it be something if it stopped at a 3rd one, be a weekly for that gear, only have about 2 months to pass by, have it uncapped while this causing to make it easier to get upgrades that lets you be even on the best gear in the game?

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So from what you are saying, you want SE to allow yourself to fully gear yourself in a day by mindlessly grinding the only two dungeons that exist?

Yea I agree, sounds really fun and exciting. I mean I would love nothing more then to gear myself up in a day and then have nothing to do for months on end. I also think it would make content extremely trivial and ensure that there is no challenge in the game whatsoever. I wish they would do this.

Thank you for your very insightful post.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Let's be honest. Who does enjoy running the same content repeatedly? The devs even acknowledged when they decided to allocate dungeons resources elsewhere for odd numbered patches. Unfortunately, developers as a whole, not simply FFXIV, cannot produce enough content relatively to have fast we consume it. I wager Omega-- both Normal and Savage-- took months of development and proper testing only for the hardcore players to down it in a day and the midcore gradually push through in the space of a month or so. Perhaps bribe is the wrong term, but any MMOs has to incentivize content players otherwise wouldn't bother with again lest new players be unable to progress or said veterans have nothing else to do.

And this isn't mean necessarily defending the system. I would love to be able to have all the jobs I enjoy playing geared and ready to tackle Savage, but it just isn't feasible on a long term basis from a business perspective. Personally, I don't mind the system. My current gear is a hodgepodge of 310-320 stuff barely melded and I manage. You can absolutely go into any content and clear.

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Yes, I understand this. So I'm not blaming them for not being able to produce unlimited content. I used to play TERA, and I think the difference is, the combat was fun enough that I didn't mind repeatedly doing the same dungeon over and over, although DPS usually got bored before I did. It's kind of interesting because it's the exact opposite here. Here DPS is equivalent or greater in terms of fun and engagement than tanking. Basically what I'm blaming them for is the design of the combat system itself. I would call it a bribe, and I do understand their reasoning. I don't think it's necessarily bad in itself to provide rewards for content (as most players wouldn't go into content without rewards). I just think the content itself can be improved.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

If you say people enjoy it where did the 5million people go? Unofficial census shows they leaved without saying much just like people tell them too.

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It's 5 million accounts created. A number that means nothing. It's just there to look impressive to the masses.

What amazes me is all the people on the forums going on and on about how "other MMOs" are so much better, yet they are here complaining instead of playing these "better" MMOs.

I'll stick with FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

What amazes me is all the people on the forums going on and on about how "other MMOs" are so much better, yet they are here complaining instead of playing these "better" MMOs.

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Oh, I'm just waiting for a certain patch to remove certain RNG (+15 for example). I never said I was going to resub FFXIV. In other words, I'm just killing time here. I think I still have a week or two of sub time left, but meh, I have no desire to log in.

I'll just leave this and this here. I'll let you figure out which one can be done while watching Youtube/Netflix/Hulu/etc.

I think the biggest issue facing MMO gaming these days is the lack of content made to allow players to enjoy what they attain. Instead you have to continually grind for the next plateau as soon as you reach what you perceive to be the summit. This most likely feeds the opinion of capped tomes being a mistake for some. As for no complaints being leveled they are all I hear when people discuss the vertical progression that this game is known for. Maybe if more time was spent making unique mechanics ,and moves for encounters; not to mention arena types instead of making the mountain ever higher while you continually cut the rope of the people climbing it there wouldn't need to be so many threads complaining about such things. Then again what do I know...

I think caps should be on a per-role basis. Even lower the caps if necessary.

This game advertises how multi-job friendly it is, yet does a very counter intuitive thing by roadblocking your character to having only 1-2 jobs at relevant iLvl.

I think a weekly cap is fine, but they should be per-role. Allow the players who play a lot more than others to progress in "width" rather than "depth"..
By that I mean everyone will be progressing at the same speed on one job, however those that have the time to play have the freedom of grinding out gear on alternative jobs and keep their gear iLvl relevant.

I think it's silly that with such a heavy focus on a "multi-armory" system, we are forced into this "main job" setup.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

What amazes me is all the people on the forums going on and on about how "other MMOs" are so much better, yet they are here complaining instead of playing these "better" MMOs.

I'll stick with FFXIV.

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They're here because they give a shit. They want to love this game. They want to see it improve. Speaking up is the only thing they can do. When most people have problems with or get tired of this or any other game, do you know what they do? They leave without saying a word and never look back and that's not good for anyone. If the developers never think anything is wrong, how are they supposed to "fix" anything? And hey, it's probably safe to say nothing will come of this thread, but at least people can walk away knowing their was, at the very least, an attempt at a dialogue with SE.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If players don't intend to tackle Ex primals or Savage content, and just plan to do Daily Roulettes or more casual content, max ilvl is not needed. It's honestly overkill for the daily roulettes.

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Daily Roulettes are synced to I310 anyways, no?

Level other jobs, Crafting, Gold Saucer. There are many things to do. Personally i don't care about "end game" that much... end game is when you have all jobs /crafting and gathering classes to the max.

You are making the game boring for yourself, if nothing else interests, take a break, within a few months those locks will vanish and you can get your gear easilly.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I think caps should be on a per-role basis. Even lower the caps if necessary.

This game advertises how multi-job friendly it is, yet does a very counter intuitive thing by roadblocking your character to having only 1-2 jobs at relevant iLvl.

I think a weekly cap is fine, but they should be per-role. Allow the players who play a lot more than others to progress in "width" rather than "depth"..
By that I mean everyone will be progressing at the same speed on one job, however those that have the time to play have the freedom of grinding out gear on alternative jobs and keep their gear iLvl relevant.

I think it's silly that with such a heavy focus on a "multi-armory" system, we are forced into this "main job" setup.

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DPS queues are already atrocious for certain bits of content. Imagine what they would be like come 4.1 when everyone who cared to level their tanks already geared them up alongside their preferred job-- if it wasn't tanks already. This also doesn't address the imbalance such a system has. Tanks and healers share all gear save their weapon whereas DPS are split into four categories: Striking, Maiming, Scouting and Casting. Of those four, Dragoon and Ninja have an entirely separate left side. What you're purposing only benefits tanks and healers... which routes to the aforementioned problem. Since I play all three roles actively, I'll give an example. It takes roughly fourteen weeks to gear your job in nothing but tomestone gear; essentially three months. If this were spaced out between each role... I wouldn't have a reason to queue into the 24-man content since the jobs I primarily play were geared previously.

The whole "main job" focus is community driven. You can clear everything, including Savage, with 310-320 gear. Your FFlogs may not be pretty and the checks tighter, but it's certainly doable. Which is how I suspect the devs see it. They don't care you can't do as much damage and get pretty numbers. For them, if you suddenly wanted to play DRG, go get the 310 stuff and play it-- even in Savage. It's statics that want specific jobs that enforce "maining" one or two, not the game itself.

Read most of the stuff. I see both points. Isn't this already tackled by both types of grind?
1) Tomes for those who can do daily routines.
2) Primals and normal raids for those who prefer altogether.

What am I missing exactly? Why are people repeating themselves?

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Originally Posted by Altena

relevant iLvl.

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Relevant Ilvl is 320. Also, multiple jobs share gear so if I focus on tanks and healers I can play up to 6 jobs. NIN and DRG are a problem, that's true.

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

They're here because they give a shit. They want to love this game. They want to see it improve. Speaking up is the only thing they can do. When most people have problems with or get tired of this or any other game, do you know what they do? They leave without saying a word and never look back and that's not good for anyone. If the developers never think anything is wrong, how are they supposed to "fix" anything? And hey, it's probably safe to say nothing will come of this thread, but at least people can walk away knowing their was, at the very least, an attempt at a dialogue with SE.

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Exactly. Of course I'm under no illusion that SE will continue to steer FF14 down this linear path. If people like vertical progression that's totally fine.

But let's think about content like Omega (normal) for a moment. Aside from the fact it isn't even a Raid by any definition of the word, and literally just 4 trial fights. The gear that is offered in this content shows an even bigger problem. With the implementation of the token system. The only way to get the chest piece from Omega is to farm shafts. A shaft can only be obtained once per week, and it requires 4 shafts to acquire a chest piece. Now that in and of itself is fine. However literally 2 weeks after Omega's release, a new patch came. It gave us all this new gear which was noticeably more powerful and superior to any of the Omega (normal) gear. Yet literally no one was given a chance to earn their chest piece whilst it was relevant, because they would have needed a further 2 weeks to earn it.

2 weeks is a disgustingly short window for content to be relevant! (even by vertical progression standards). This was brand new content and SE cast it aside to become nothing but trash and alt gear before anyone could even earn the full set! I'm sorry but there is literally no good design choice there! Yet again another example out of many that shows how FF14's MMO elements are sub par.

Locking players from progressing in any content (tomestone cap/weekly lockout/whatever lockout) at their own pace is just a sign of poor design and development overall.
The reason why i stopped playing xiv is because of this, its absurd that we even have to pay for a game that we can not play as we like, simply because they fail at designing and planning content on a period of time.

So the whole XIV machine is based on this repetitive pattern over and over, its gonna be like this forever, next years to come, and frankly its boring.
There are so many things that they could improve with just a little effort to avoid this situation yet they dont do anything about it, im impressed by people still playing this game after you already basically done the same thing. Now everyone is back to square one.
We gonna have a new relic, a new 24 man dungeon, new primal, savage, andddddddddd repeat. Such imagination, such creativity and ideas.

Who's fault is that? playerbase imo. People accept everything they throw at you nowadays and this is quite the result. This game title always used to inspire your fantasy and mean something to players, Final Fantasy always been a deep travel and gaming experience, now is just a boring pattern on the line of WoW just because they had to jump into the bandwagon of modern mmos.

Quite a disappointment for me, i've grow up playing Final Fantasy since years, since 3 and 4 came out. It is just really sad to see the current status of the game to me, anyway if you have fun with this, good for you.

(oh and before some smart guy type why i am still writing and reading forum if i quit, its because my sub is still active, made a mistake on renewing for months so, gotta wait for it to run out, besides i like reading forums).

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Originally Posted by Galaktica

They're here because they give a shit. They want to love this game. They want to see it improve. Speaking up is the only thing they can do. When most people have problems with or get tired of this or any other game, do you know what they do? They leave without saying a word and never look back and that's not good for anyone. If the developers never think anything is wrong, how are they supposed to "fix" anything? And hey, it's probably safe to say nothing will come of this thread, but at least people can walk away knowing their was, at the very least, an attempt at a dialogue with SE.

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Yeah, I really wanted to love this game. My friends sounded like they were having a lot of fun playing this game. So I tried, but I was disappointed. See, I played TERA for a couple years. I started playing FFXIV in late February. I'm spoiled by TERA. :(

I just don't find the combat in this game that interesting. My friend (who's also talking in that clip), states how he reads manga or watches youtube while healing. I personally think there's something wrong when you can watch Youtube while playing a game, but that's just my opinion. I also doubt anything fruitful will come out of this discussion or that SE will change things, but at least I can say I tried.