Dropped Items and Materia

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Originally Posted by Ilethius

From what i have tested MRD / GLA are now very similar in holding hate, MRD just edges it as they do more dmg and are easier to manage they also can use flash/provoke just like a GLA can. I have found that GLA takes a lot more button mashing to keep up with MRD so may not be the best choice for the larger battles. However with the introduction of jobs I do believe that PLD will be king of tanks.

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MRD's flash is NOT AoE. Glad is still best tank.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Hi,

the materia system is a cool way to get crafted items out of the game and keep crafters making items. The big problem with it, though, is that because Unique/Untradeable items cannot be melded, they are basically (with a few exceptions) worthless.

Some might point to the Ifrit Lancer, Marauder, and Archer weapons for an example of dropped items that are better than their crafted/materia equivalent. Unfortunately under the current system items like these eventually make the materia system useless.

Basically, with the materia system the way it is now, I see two possibilities in the future. Either A) Materia remains king outside of a few pieces of gear, giving a lot less incentive to do actual content when it's easier to just buy cheap crafted gear in town and gamble on forbidden materia or B) Future content drops actual good gear, killing off the materia system.

They're both bad choices, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd go with B since going and getting items with a group is a lot more interesting than playing the materia slot machine.

There is another way, though! If U/U gear is allowed to meld materia, both situations are avoided. The materia system stays useful since people will need new materia every time they upgrade their gear, and dropped gear is actually worth getting. Crafted gear can remain a cheap, quick option for leveling up and fresh 50s and it can still be converted into materia. If you want good gear, you'll need to go fight some bosses and clear some dungeons and buy/convert some materia.

Of course, a system to meld another person's gear through the bazaar will be needed, but that was going to be needed eventually anyway.

I really hope that the devs take this into consideration for 2.0.

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I think an interesting solution would be to balance the materia with gear sets that give stat bonuses when you wear 2 or more pieces of the set at one time. I really hope materia isnt always gonna be the king of better gear or it will really kill all the fun I used to have in XI that came with going on NM hunts and such.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

this has been discussed to death..

Future U/U items will likely be stronger than the current ones, but forbidden melds will always win out due to the high failure %.

I do not see any problems with this power structure:

1. Crafted - no materia
2. Crafted - 1 materia
3. U/U
4. Crafted - 2 materia
5. Crafted - 3 materia
6. etc..

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More like:

1. Crafted
2. Green W
3. Crafted - 1M*
4. Green W - 1M
5. Crafted - 2M
6. Green - 2M
7. Crafted - 3M
8. Green - 3M
9. Crafted - 4M
10. Blue W**
11. Green - 4M
12. Crafted - 5M
13. Green - 5M

*M = Tier IV Materia
**Blue W gear will have unique stats that cannot be melded onto that specific slot and/or stats/bonuses that cannot be achieved by any other means (ie. Additional Fire damage, HP/MP recovery, high Damage value, etc.)

Keeps Blue W gear unmeldable. Allows for the melding of Green W gear, and makes it potentially the best gear in the game through participation of DoW/M, DoH and DoL.

^ thats more complicated that it needs to be :(

Blue Gear should be the best gear in the game at the moment, its sad there is no reason to do content even the Primal weapons are overshadowed in some cases.

2 new dungeons in 1.21 and no reason to do them besides getting the achievement, sort it out Yoshi-p

Solution is simple...
U/U gear can be melded while the owner is wearing it, just like with the new repair system.
I hope that the devs impliment that at some point cause i honestly think that a non meldable
piece of gear is far inferior than one that is.

Anything that cannot accept Materia is forever going to be inferior to something that can. Anyone wearing the rare/ex stronghold gear is doing so because they like the way it looks or because they can't afford Materia. It doesn't matter if that gear boosts a stat that cannot be boosted with Materia, that gear is still worthless. In the long run, insane boosts to a variety of stats is much more useful than giving up Materia slots just to stack one stat.

Here's an idea that doesn't involve adding in new features: go back to the old NM method of having the enemy drop materials to craft a meldable item. Silver Tricorne is still among the best head pieces in game. . .

Seriously, though, there's your DoW, DoM, DoH, and possibly DoL involvement, all in one fell swoop.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Here's an idea that doesn't involve adding in new features: go back to the old NM method of having the enemy drop materials to craft a meldable item.

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That idea actually involves adding new features.

New Recipes for those synths.
New items that will be the mats for those synths.

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Originally Posted by YuriSan

That idea actually involves adding new features.

New Recipes for those synths.
New items that will be the mats for those synths.

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You're just being difficult.

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Originally Posted by Agate

You're just being difficult.

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Hehe ok i guess no coding is needed to add stuff that dont exist.

I would honestly prefer that no U/U stuff existed and all the gear was just unigue
and was made from mats that NMs dropped like the guys said.
Im just saying not one nor the other way can be done without work for the devs included.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Sometime I think they should add relic type gear that takes a long time to get which is the absolute ultimate gear, it would be stronger than anything we have and will ever have, but it will take at least 1yr to get a long time goal for the people that just want the best gear and not super troll people with this gear like they did in ffxi and empyrian weapons.

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i would like to see U/U gear get rare stats such as the moogle wand having a chance of recoving mp.

I think a nice way to balance it would be to let U/U have a single meld that cannot fail and explode the item, and let non-U/U continue with the current method.

Want a really good weapon and the ability to slightly tweak your stats? Meld once to a U/U.

Want to hardcore min/max your character at the risk of exploding gear? Multimeld onto a non-U/U weapon to end up with slightly better stats (again, at the risk of blowing it up).

The hardcore crowd will still want the U/U stuff because it's better than previous stuff, and it gives them an alternate piece of gear to use while they blow up three pairs of melded pants until they get enough successes to make them better.

The middle crowd will continue to have options between getting the U/U gear and melding once or twice on the crafted stuff.

The casual crowd can stick with mostly the easier to get U/U stuff and the crafted stuff with a single meld and still perform reasonably well compared to the medium and hardcore folks.

All three keeping both the materia/melding systems relevant as well as the U/U dropped items relevant.

This is like saying Level 10 gear is useless because eventually you'll get level 12 gear, they're even, its Regular>Unique/Untradeable>Materia'd We've had NM drop gear for a while, but its never phased out equivalent gear prior to material, I worse my Conquistador Elmo at level 30, then replaced it with Iron Salet at 35, etc.... you're just looking at gear that's conditional outside of the condition it depends on.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Here's an idea that doesn't involve adding in new features: go back to the old NM method of having the enemy drop materials to craft a meldable item. Silver Tricorne is still among the best head pieces in game. . .

Seriously, though, there's your DoW, DoM, DoH, and possibly DoL involvement, all in one fell swoop.

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I don't like that system since it is then possible for someone who did not earn a piece of equipment to obtain it. There should be some items unobtainable unless you complete the content required. That content don't always have to be killing a primal, completing dungeons, or hunting coffers but that is what is in the game now.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

^ thats more complicated that it needs to be :(

Blue Gear should be the best gear in the game at the moment, its sad there is no reason to do content even the Primal weapons are overshadowed in some cases.

2 new dungeons in 1.21 and no reason to do them besides getting the achievement, sort it out Yoshi-p

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Not complicated at all. Perhaps it looks more complicated than it needs to be because I spelled out each materia meld. Essentially:

4-5M Green > 4-5M Craft > Blue > 1-3M Green > 1-3M Craft.

Look simpler?

The gist is in terms of sheer power or materia-countable stats, Blue would be somewhere above triple melds, however to separate it from every gear in the game it would have something unique and unattainable through materia.

This would make it the best for certain strategies and scenarios, but not make it straight up best for slot. This gives it the true unique feel. If you just have Blue gear be undisputed best in slot, you're asking for each new primal to escalate stats on Blue gear and render previous ones obsolete.

As for melding Blue, I disagree completely/ it will definitely get re-balanced if they go with it so that the stats are lower. If anyone thinks they'll just keep Blue W gear stats the way they are and allow us to meld them, they're being naive.

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Originally Posted by Pyretta_Blaze

I don't like that system since it is then possible for someone who did not earn a piece of equipment to obtain it. There should be some items unobtainable unless you complete the content required. That content don't always have to be killing a primal, completing dungeons, or hunting coffers but that is what is in the game now.

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Depends. They could, for example, make the very best pieces (and/or the materials for them) be U/U. I know I wouldn't be adverse to the idea of the very best gear only going to those who've maxed multiple aspects of their character. The hierarchy, then, would look kinda like this:

Extremely rare drop-craft (U/U)
Somewhat "common" drop-craft (still Unique)
Common mat crafting

The only way to get the best gear, then, would be to earn it; but you could still buy the second- or third-best, same as now.

Of course, that's just the simplest option for ensuring that the content gets done. I can think of several others, but I'm trying to stick to my idea of not adding in any new features to accommodate it.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Extremely rare drop-craft (U/U)
Somewhat "common" drop-craft (still Unique)
Common mat crafting

The only way to get the best gear, then, would be to earn it; but you could still buy the second- or third-best, same as now.

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That sounds great actually.

Right now u pretty much fight and kill your time for a mediocre set of gear (Mercenary's lolset)
If you are going to spit blood and shed swet you might aswell do it for something thats worth it.

Great, except it requires every player who actually wants to play the game and get items to level 3-4 crafts to max. You don't even have to max out more than one combat class anymore with the new ability changes. The worst is like 42 archer for chameleon. Trying to avoid not adding new features is great and all but not when you make the situation even worse than it is.

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As for melding Blue, I disagree completely/ it will definitely get re-balanced if they go with it so that the stats are lower. If anyone thinks they'll just keep Blue W gear stats the way they are and allow us to meld them, they're being naive.

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Yeah they'd have to nerf the HELL out of templar's falchion. Plus, who cares if they'd "need" to nerf a few weapons somewhat when it would be way better for the game in the long run?

Materia for it's difficulty in obtaining higher tiers should remain superior to dropped loot. The dropped loot has no chance of being destroyed and is at the get-go fairly powerfull allowing you the means to attain materia easier.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Great, except it requires every player who actually wants to play the game and get items to level 3-4 crafts to max. You don't even have to max out more than one combat class anymore with the new ability changes. The worst is like 42 archer for chameleon. Trying to avoid not adding new features is great and all but not when you make the situation even worse than it is.

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Yay for exaggeration! How many crafting classes do you really think an ARC would have to max out? I'm betting no more than two--CRP and maybe LTW. For PGL, I'd say the same: BSM or GSM and LTW. GLA, MRD, and LNC would all be ARM and BSM, CRP for LNC. THM would be GSM and WVR; CON would be CRP and WVR.

Notice how I just gave each class a full set of gear with only two crafting classes. And really, that's overkill, because I only recommend using this system for one or two pieces of gear per class, anyway. Also, this is only for the BiS gear. There'd be other options for those like myself who don't have any crafting 50s.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Yay for exaggeration! How many crafting classes do you really think an ARC would have to max out? I'm betting no more than two--CRP and maybe LTW. For PGL, I'd say the same: BSM or GSM and LTW. GLA, MRD, and LNC would all be ARM and BSM, CRP for LNC. THM would be GSM and WVR; CON would be CRP and WVR.

Notice how I just gave each class a full set of gear with only two crafting classes. And really, that's overkill, because I only recommend using this system for one or two pieces of gear per class, anyway. Also, this is only for the BiS gear. There'd be other options for those like myself who don't have any crafting 50s.

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I was under the impression that you were going for a full set of gear, which for Gla would be ARM (armor), BSM GSM or CRP (weapon), GSM (jewelry) and WVR (pants). Casters would probably need the least. Anyway, it's not a horrible idea to have a few good pieces that you can only get by having a crafter leveled but it shouldn't be the norm and it's not a solution for most of the problems with the materia system.

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Materia for it's difficulty in obtaining higher tiers should remain superior to dropped loot. The dropped loot has no chance of being destroyed and is at the get-go fairly powerfull allowing you the means to attain materia easier.

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Slot machines aren't difficult, they're just random. Difficulty implies there's things you can do or skills you can acquire to make it easier. Having dropped loot as just a means to grind out materia faster is pretty much the worst idea I've ever heard (plus, wearing that dropped loot means you get one less piece of materia for your spiritbond time). This thread isn't even about making dropped loot superior to materia-equipped gear, it's about allowing dropped gear to actually use materia.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I was under the impression that you were going for a full set of gear, which for Gla would be ARM (armor), BSM GSM or CRP (weapon), GSM (jewelry) and WVR (pants). Casters would probably need the least. Anyway, it's not a horrible idea to have a few good pieces that you can only get by having a crafter leveled but it shouldn't be the norm and it's not a solution for most of the problems with the materia system.

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Hmm. . . somehow I missed the fact that ARM doesn't make any pants. Anyway, I doubt we'll ever see a dagger or paddle as a BiS item, so the weapon kinda defaults to BSM. And I also doubt they'd use this system for jewelry, since we all know how much they love GSM. . .

Anyway, the corollary to this is the idea that all gear under this system would be meldable. Granted, this wouldn't solve everything, but it would put a nice dent in the dropped-vs-crafted dichotomy.

Gla gear is all messed up anyway. GSM repairs Ifrit's Blade (cause it's a horn I guess) and Vintage Kite Shield is wooden I guess 'cause that's CRP.

Aaaaaaaanyway all gear needs to be meldable. They need a system for melding through the bazaar for 2.0 anyway so get on it yoshidaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa god damn

I ogree with myself

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Yeah they'd have to nerf the HELL out of templar's falchion. Plus, who cares if they'd "need" to nerf a few weapons somewhat when it would be way better for the game in the long run?

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Typical that you would bring up the lack of stats on Darkhold Blue W loot. You can continue to ignore the focus of my point - being the Ifrit and Moogle weapons - as long as you like. Only hurts your argument. Considering the large gap between the newly released Blue W vs the DH Blue W, and the stats on some of the Green W, they should just make everything from DH Green W.

So, yea - meld the Templar Falchion all you like at that point. I've clearly stated where I'd like to see Blue W gear at stat-wise for it to remain unmeldable. Nothing from the DH meets that level. You can sarcastically mock it all you like, and while you may think its clever you'll only be sounding childish.

What would be better for the game in the long run are a variety of weapons with unique effects - not entirely obtained through materia. Strong, thematic loot that exists outside of the realm of materia-melding is a necessity for the game in my opinion. While the majority if gear can be melded, there needs to exist at least a single distinct tier of gear that cannot be melded, and is strong and unique enough that nobody would need to.

I am ignoring your point because you are wrong. There is nothing special about Ifrit and Moogle drops - they are lazily itemized trophies. You can have unique effects and still have items be meldable. There are no stats on either set of weapons that are so crazy that they'd suddenly be game breaking if they were also meldable. Future itemization would obviously take meldability into account and could still have unique effects without breaking the game.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

I am ignoring your point because you are wrong. There is nothing special about Ifrit and Moogle drops - they are lazily itemized trophies. You can have unique effects and still have items be meldable. There are no stats on either set of weapons that are so crazy that they'd suddenly be game breaking if they were also meldable. Future itemization would obviously take meldability into account and could still have unique effects without breaking the game.

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Highest base Damage value, Attack Power +30 and Additional Fire damage. Best weapons in slot for most classes despite not being meldable. This is hard, cold in-game fact right now.

I am wrong? Sure.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Highest base Damage value, Attack Power +30 and Additional Fire damage. Best weapons in slot for most classes despite not being meldable. This is hard, cold in-game fact right now.

I am wrong? Sure.

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None of this would be broken or overpowered if these weapons were meldable hope this helps :)

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

None of this would be broken or overpowered if these weapons were meldable hope this helps :)

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So take the weapons that are already for the most part best in slot, and allow them to be melded? You believe that this wouldn't be broken or overpowered?

Oh, go on. Please continue. I'm quite happy that you're answering so sincerely. It's great to have more insight into how much you know lol.

Sticking 1 materia into Ifrit weapons would make good weapons slightly better. Note that something good becoming better doesn't mean it's overpowered - it just means it's better than it was. None of the Ifrit weapons getting a piece of materia in them would destroy game balance or trivialize the few encounters we have. Even if they did, it shouldn't matter. These encounters and weapons are not going to matter at all in 2.0. You can sit there with your stupid colored text and act all sure of yourself but it doesn't change the fact that if dropped items are not meldable in 2.0 then either the materia system or dropped items will be worthless.

hope that helps :)

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Sticking 1 materia into Ifrit weapons would make good weapons slightly better. Note that something good becoming better doesn't mean it's overpowered - it just means it's better than it was. None of the Ifrit weapons getting a piece of materia in them would destroy game balance or trivialize the few encounters we have. Even if they did, it shouldn't matter. These encounters and weapons are not going to matter at all in 2.0. You can sit there with your stupid colored text and act all sure of yourself but it doesn't change the fact that if dropped items are not meldable in 2.0 then either the materia system or dropped items will be worthless.

hope that helps :)

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So let's take Ifrit's Bow, and meld it with +20 DEX. Yup, totally doesn't break the game! Not one bit. Wait... hold on though... Brannigan said it's ok if it breaks game balance anyway so all is well! Nothing matters in this game right now because we get 2.0 in 10 months! That must be why they're working so hard on it while they also work on building 2.0, right?

Oh and what's that about my sexy navy font? It's somehow relevant to all of this? Awesome ad hominem response, sir.

What's next? An awesome conclusion to your post: the existence of a subset of items that are unmeldable will do what to the materia system? Destroy it? Oh, wow. Who's acting all sure of themselves tossing around baseless predictions as facts? It's been how long since 1.19 now? I can just feel the materia system cracking under the tension the Ifrit and Moogle weapons are causing it.

Please keep going. This keeps getting better and better. Pure gold.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw...i6tmo1_500.gif

If you really think that adding a single materia to any of the Ifrit weapons is going to trivialize anything in the game then I don't know what to tell you. That 0.5% increase in DPS isn't really that amazing.

More content will be added to this game. Content will have drops since this is an MMORPG. Among those drops many of them will probably have blue names and good stats. Things with blue names will not necessarily be limited to certain slots as they are now. If these items with blue names are better than anything that player can reasonably get from materia, then materia is now useless to that player in whatever slot that item occupies. You can see this now with Lancers, Marauders, Pugilists, and Archers who have Ifrit bows - they don't care about weapon-slot materia.

There's also the other side, where dropped items can't compete with materia - this happens right now with classes like Gladiator and the mages. A +hate materia is better than anything you'll get from an Ifrit or Moogle weapon, so you basically don't need to worry about getting those swords.

Finally, as for my comments about destroying game current game balance - the point is not to say that they should intentionally wreck whatever balance there is now, but that this game is pretty much still in an extended beta phase. I'm far less worried about what the state of the game is now than what it will be in the future.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

If you really think that adding a single materia to any of the Ifrit weapons is going to trivialize anything in the game then I don't know what to tell you. That 0.5% increase in DPS isn't really that amazing.

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That's a question of stats not working as they should. The fix for that is to revamp stats and for content to use more gear-checks, not further trivialize them with a "what the hell, they don't work anyway so let's toss em around everywhere!"

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More content will be added to this game. Content will have drops since this is an MMORPG. Among those drops many of them will probably have blue names and good stats. Things with blue names will not necessarily be limited to certain slots as they are now. If these items with blue names are better than anything that player can reasonably get from materia, then materia is now useless to that player in whatever slot that item occupies. You can see this now with Lancers, Marauders, Pugilists, and Archers who have Ifrit bows - they don't care about weapon-slot materia.

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I never said the Blue W loot should be better than anything in game. They should be very good for a certain type of fighting scenario, and great from a standpoint relative to crafted and Green W gear, but should be beaten by 4-5M gear or perhaps even 3M gear that stacks a single stat/attribute in some cases. The unique effects keep them desirable even if they lack sheer power. Allowing them to be melded on top of this already present appeal will make them undoubtedly best in slot and render everything else obsolete. Now that seems like a problem to me.

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There's also the other side, where dropped items can't compete with materia - this happens right now with classes like Gladiator and the mages. A +hate materia is better than anything you'll get from an Ifrit or Moogle weapon, so you basically don't need to worry about getting those swords.

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Well, the Ifrit's weapons work quite well for mages when they want sheer power. The Mogstaff is very nice for a THM to prevent their nukes being resisted, and allow greater crits. Devs also said they were looking into making the additional effect of weapons proc on attack spells as well - meaning the Mogstaff would grant a THM return in MP which is something they can use a lot of. The Mogsword is also desirable due to the HP proc. Mind you the proc on these additional effects seem to be quite frequent: ~70%. Is it the best for every scenario a GLA will face? Of course not - but it sure is great for King Moggle Mog! When a GLA wants to dish out greater damage? Ifrit's Blade stands on top easy due to swords not being able to slot the materia that would make them a competitor in that field.

See where I'm going with this? Options. Thematic loot. Best in some cases, never well-rounded. Allowing them to be melded can effectively make them best in slot by stacking more of what they have, or cover a weakness and make them well-rounded and best overall effectively discouraging the use of a variety of weapons.

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Finally, as for my comments about destroying game current game balance - the point is not to say that they should intentionally wreck whatever balance there is now, but that this game is pretty much still in an extended beta phase. I'm far less worried about what the state of the game is now than what it will be in the future.

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The point is they are implementing everything with the future in mind. Current in-game balance already is a secondary concern as we can tell from the released content. Yoshi-P says himself that he is laying only the fundamentals down now so that the team can get creative and innovative later. Everything they add to this game is with 2.0 in mind.

The point is, there exists so many weapons and armors that can be melded with so many different materias. Allowing Blue W gear to be melded will undoubtedly come with a nerf on their stats if the team has any respect for the stats they laid out and recently revamped - and I'm sure they do. Considering they recently went the route of further buffing the Ifrit Weapons, I'm going to say they have no intention of making them meldable. Let's put those aside and agree that the Green W loot definitely needs to be made meldable. Those are in a confused state where some are meldable and some are not - even in cases where they are obtained the same way.

All items should be meldable, the system is dumb right now. Also multi-melds are pretty dumb.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

All items should be meldable, the system is dumb right now. Also multi-melds are pretty dumb.

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Yea I think you've made your opinion quite clear.

As have you thanks

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Yea I think you've made your opinion quite clear.

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I've gotta agree with him, though. So what if it means a default Ifrit weapon is nerfed?

I think it's good this way with non-meldable/non-convertable for Rare/Ex
, but i didn't agree in a way that Rare/Ex item now is now so worth to collected.

What i mean is "unique stat" that will get when wearing all gear from the same set like Sipahi , Mercenary or so.
"Unique" just unique but not too special just make it more interesting and worth to keep. That's all for me.

ps. i'm new here so can anyone tell me how to get to the last page f the thread from the thread list?

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Originally Posted by Mirana

ps. i'm new here so can anyone tell me how to get to the last page f the thread from the thread list?

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Only way to do that is to click the arrows next to the title of the thread, which will take you to the first unread post.

Also, welcome!

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Only way to do that is to click the arrows next to the title of the thread, which will take you to the first unread post.

Also, welcome!

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Ah!! , ic , thank you.