Feedback: Please do not lower Paladin damage.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Even if it's not a major nerf, fuck nerfing PLD already. WAR has been lording over the tanking meta forever now. Let them cry in the corner for a while. They'll live.

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Yeah, some of us actually care about balance.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...k-us-right.jpg

Aylmao

Literally all these PLD complaints are exactly what the WAR's have been asking in 3.0.

"Don't nerf us! Just boost the others to our level!" - WAR 3.0, PLD 4.0, DRK 5.0.

something something live long enough to see yourself become the villain something something

SE truly is incompetent and just wants the tank community to consume themselves with the endless infighting.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Aylmao

Literally all these PLD complaints are exactly what the WAR's have been asking in 3.0.

"Don't nerf us! Just boost the others to our level!" - WAR 3.0, PLD 4.0, DRK 5.0.

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To be fair, all tanks wanted to be buffed to WAR's level rather than see it nerfed to PLD/DRK's.

Also, I'm convinced that DRK will never be OP. Yoshida and the team seem pretty determined to not ever let that happen.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

To be fair, all tanks wanted to be buffed to WAR's level rather than see it nerfed to PLD/DRK's.

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That's not how I remember it.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

That's not how I remember it.

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How is it you remember it? Because there wasn't really much point to nerfing WAR back then. You could nerf its damage sure, but its utility made it irreplaceable. Slashing debuff was too strong back then, and Storm's Path was OP for progression. PLDs wanted more damage, to block magic, an AoE, and to be able to cast while tanking. DRKs wanted their janky kit fixed instead of SE making raids catered to them.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

Also, I'm convinced that DRK will never be OP. Yoshida and the team seem pretty determined to not ever let that happen.

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FeelsDRKman.

Lmao I can't even be salty at how SE likes to balance the tanks anymore. It's like DRK doesn't even exist to them.

Like holy shit, what did DRK ever do to yoshi-p.

Hahahahahaha tank balance.

Since Paladings Raid utility gets cited so often, let's take a look at it?

Divine Veil: You will always have a healer in your party that can shield already and one extra shield with 5k hp every 2 minutes (!) is not really noticeable

Cover: Only works if you are OT'ing or if your party is dead and you need to shield the healer for lb3, + the range is too small, + doesn't work on everything

Clemency: Good self-heal, but you're better off casting holy spirit with your mana or you save it for when you know your healer cannot heal you right now

PoA: Only useful for transitions since you are most likely the MT and no one should go in front of the boss

Intervention: You need to sacrifice Rampart/Sentinel to make it really count and you need to be ot for it + oath gauge fills vey slow in Shield Oath

Raid Utility did not get Paladin a spot in 3.0 and it won't give it one in 4.0 since raids value the maximum damage output possible. As long as you can skip phases via dps, damage will be the most important thing to contribute in a raid

Paladin is a good 'oh shit' tank if something goes wrong, but those occasions should be the minority of cases once you're familiar with mechanics and then like 5 skills lose their purpose and then the best utility is simply put, Damage.. For the learning phase aka the first 3 weeks pld will have a spot, but then later you can't justify bringing one anymore when you could have a drk or war

It can't fall too far behind WAR and DRK because the use of the utility is time-limited, and it does by far not need something that messes with the fluidity of the gameplay and frankly after 2 years of asking for buffs and ways to make the class feel less clunky, this is a spit in the face.

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

Raid Utility did not get Paladin a spot in 3.0 and it won't give it one in 4.0

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That... is not how that works.

3.0 PLD had competition. 4.0 PLD doesn't.

Look at the big picture.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

That... is not how that works.

3.0 PLD had competition. 4.0 PLD doesn't.

Look at the big picture.

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3.0 paladin competed with classes that can bring utility that's more valuable than group mitigation aka damage which is was a big reason why PLD was a joke while Warrior had no competition for 2 years

4.0 paladin has no competition, which is why I AM NOT AGAINST WARRIOR/DRK BUFFS, quite the contrary, I am all in favor of them

what I am against is an additional Paladin nerf to their overall gameplay/fluidity, and damage when the utility they offer is only valuable for a limited time and then loses its purpose

4.05 paladin and the tank-spots will just be the same as heavensward with DRK/WAR being mandatory because PLD's utility won't be needed since the raids are designed to be cleared without it, and then it's a matter of 'who does the most damage?'

please do not take me being against paladin nerfs for me also being against warrior/drk buffs, I play those classes as well as do many other paladins that are against this nerf.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

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i have been in favor of buffing WAR and DRK ever since it got evident that pld was op. I pushed my DRK to 70 a week ago because I loved playing that class in HW and I want to see it change for the better because guess what you can actually play and love more than one class and after my Sam hits 60, War is the next class I'll be bringing to 70 because guess what I am a tank main, but yes I love Pld the most.

I've been on the forums for a short time, but after you had to go through the majority of HW as pld you'd understand why I am salty. It took me a long time to find a Raid Group that wanted to take a PLD , and it was even harder to find farm parties that were not enforcing DRK/WAR as well, coupled with all the other 'pld is trash what do you want with it main war ' comments

I tasted fluid gameplay for a class I love and it finally feels complete so of course I am going to be upset if they mess with the goring blade uptime that is going to be influenced by it, or with the ogc's, or the requiescat window. I would not be opposed to a straight up potency nerf to it down to like 420 or 410, that would be fine with me but the pld problem and utility is based in the general raid design.

Even the quote you got from me literally has me saying 'i am in favor of buffing warrior' so what the hell do you want

Warrior is not the only class entitled to fluid gameplay lmao

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i have been in favor of buffing WAR and DRK ever since it got evident that pld was op.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXEPk3dzFg

I don't believe you. You can say that as much as you want. The sheer pettiness of this one post spotlights exactly how you really feel.

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Even the quote you got from me has me saying 'i am in favor of buffing warrior' so what the hell do you want

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I want you to stop being disingenuous with your arguments. Because you give absolutely no reason for us to believe that you actually mean it.

You claim you want all tanks to be fun and useful but you turn around and laugh at people who wanted those buffs and then whine exactly like the people you mocked over one tiny nerf.

That is why I don't believe you for a second.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxXEPk3dzFg

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I AM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT WANTED WAR AND DRK BUFFS and all I can give you is a pinky promise that I mean it

fact is I play or played all of those classes on a raid level and I am interested in fluid gameplay and utility for all of them which is why I am in favour of the drk buffs and warrior buffs but not in favour of a PLD nerf to the fluidity/feelling of it + SE needs to adress the utility issue that comes up with their raid design

it was evident from the start that they were going to change WAR and DRK so there was no harm with me enjoying that one month of being on top as well lmao so excuse me for being petty for a while for all the shit I had to put up with in Heavensward

and nah, fuck being a nice person

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Warrior is not the only class entitled to fluid gameplay lmao

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Where did I say they were?

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

it was evident from the start that they were going to change WAR and DRK so there was no harm with me enjoying that one month of being on top as well lmao so excuse me for being petty for a while for all the shit I had to put up with in Heavensward

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"You know those people who were mean to me before? Let me prove I'm better then them by showing empathy...just kidding!"

Also, why not do it to people who were actually mean to you. Why are you being petty in a place full of people you have no idea how they treated PLD players?

Fact is you were in a good place (and still are, you even got gauge removal gone) and you given the chance to be the better person to people upset with their class or and you choose to act no better then the people who you say were rude to you in HW.

Nobody forced you to do that. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't take your word on it.

Welcome to the forums where people just try to get reactions out of people

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

Welcome to the forums where people just try to get reactions out of people

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I found it entertaining.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I found it entertaining.

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The gladiator asks:

http://blog.codinghorror.com/content...ntertained.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I want you to stop being disingenuous with your arguments.

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Well at least you're perfectly transparent in what you want. xD

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

3.0 paladin competed with classes that can bring utility that's more valuable than group mitigation aka damage which is was a big reason why PLD was a joke while Warrior had no competition for 2 years

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You realize that even if 3.0 PLD had had the same DPS as DRK/WAR or even slightly more, they would still have been left out becaure of:
- No Slashing Debuff
- No Storm Path
- No Int debuff
- No Magic mitigation (i.e. Block)
- No Delirium

Yes PLD did less than the other tanks but that's not why it was out of meta, it's because their tool kit didn't fit well with the content.
All the above issues have been resolved in 4.0. PLD is nowhere in the same position as HW, even if they are to do less DPS than DRK/WAR.
Unless PLD is significantly lower than the other tank (like 20% less), they will still have a spot in Raid.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Currently in the game Paladin does a similar amount of dps when compared to war and dark knight with a slight edge going to war and dark over pld. If I had to rank how much dps the current tanks do it would be 1. War 2. Drk 3. Pld.

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I see you made a typo. Let me help.

Paladin does a similar amount of dps when compared to war and dark knight with a slight edge going to pld over war and dark.

There you go all fixed

Yes 3.0 pld had utility, but 4.0 pld allows us to extend our personal cooldowns to the other tank. 4.0 pld allows for both tanks to maintain 100% uptime in dps stance. Our mitigation plus the other tanks mitigation on every tank buster won't require a tank stance to mitigate and shirk solves the enmity issue that could come from the dps stance. That's the difference between the two plds not our dps, plds now bring higher party dps to the table.

Fights are going to be designed to be clearable with either combination of tanks... because of this players are going to go for what they always have, extra dps to push phases. we are probably going to see the trend from 3.0+ continue. PLD should not do more DPS then the other tanks, however, extra mitigation is useless to players that can push their classes to the absolute maximum. The third difficulty tiers SE plans on adding may or may not be a different story depending on what they go about doing, but it will likely still be set up for all 3 tanks in mind.

Also tanks have always been able to maintain 100% dps uptime in savage fights with a party that knew what they were doing... tanks still can maintain that 100% even now without a paladin. The job skillset just adds another defensive buffer to the party.

4.0 PLD doesnt allow both tanks to stay in dps stance. Ucould always do that. But shirk makes it easier. Now of ur talking about intervention, DRK has the with TDN too.

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Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

Fights are going to be designed to be clearable with either combination of tanks... because of this players are going to go for what they always have, extra dps to push phases..

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See the problem with this is, PLD is highest DPS pre-4.05, and a nerf for one class is the same as a buff for every other class. They're doing both, but most do not expect the DPS difference to be all that great. Furthermore, PLD's contribution to lessen the amount of healing received by the party contribute to raid DPS via Hallowed Ground, Intervention, Divine Veil, Passage of Arms, and higher passive mitigation. Raid-wide mitigation isn't all about survival, though PLD does significantly also increase a progression's chances at that as well.

Losing out on a single Holy Spirit per window is such an inconsequential nerf, less so when you consider PLD loses no gauge now.

DRK has a lot more reason to worry as of now considering they have a broken kit to begin with and only offer a 10% HP shield as their sole utility while still lacking the utility of DPS as in WAR's case.

ubmake it sound so ok. But it doeant just affect 1 HS. It affect 20% of HS with RQ buff and delays GB. Its a double wammy. Its a hige fps loss

I don't like this nerf, to say otherwise would be a lie but I do like the WAR and DRK changes. Biggest reason I don't like it is because some say it's a cast time thing and others say is a potency need, I don't know is which is right

That said PLD is still viable. A WAR or DRK MT can stay in DPS stance longer with a PLD OT. We can use provoke and then shirk to give more hate ( never tried it, will it work?) We can add mitigation to them with our job skill plus cd on it or use cover allowing them to still do the high damage. This might not be the end of the world

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this but it's worth a try

Yeah and I'm trying to point out the pro's over the cons. Plds mitigation allows lower skilled players to maximize dps stance. The devs aren't designing to fit a meta. Wether you find the utility useful or not, pld has a crap ton of it. Everyone foresaw the change. Even if they left pld alone they would have bumped drk/war a bit more to compensate. So it still would have been a case of war/drk out dpsing the utility tank. Drk doesn't bring as much utility for drk/pld to be even on dps.

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

ubmake it sound so ok. But it doeant just affect 1 HS. It affect 20% of HS with RQ buff and delays GB. Its a double wammy. Its a hige fps loss

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It doesn't affect the other Holy Spirits or your Goring Blade. You're still going to only use Holy Spirit inside that window. If it's so long that it results in you only being able to cast 3 Holy Spirits inside that window (assuming you are indeed among the ones using 5 Holy Spirits as of now), then it will be a more significant nerf than people currently think. As of now though, it's pretty inconsequential considering just how high PLD DPS is and we're not even really sure how much of a DPS buff WAR and DRK will get.

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Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

Also tanks have always been able to maintain 100% dps uptime in savage fights with a party that knew what they were doing... tanks still can maintain that 100% even now without a paladin. The job skillset just adds another defensive buffer to the party.

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There is only one fight in all of savage 3.0 that had 100% uptime, a9s.

I had personally sword oathed 100% of A9S-A11S when it was relevant... A12S I have watched dark knights go gritless the entire thing and the only thing stopping PLD was that our blocks did nothing for magic damage. Again if they try to make that extra mitigation a necessity, then they will make the content unclearable without a PLD which is bs to the other two tanks. Yes we need a DPS nerf, but we NEED DPS UTILITY, not HEALER/DEFENSIVE utility.

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Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

I had personally sword oathed 100% of A9S-A11S when it was relevant... A12S I have watched dark knights go gritless the entire thing and the only thing stopping PLD was that our blocks did nothing for magic damage. Again if they try to make that extra mitigation a necessity, then they will make the content unclearable without a PLD

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I mean that would be broken if they got something like trick. And I don't see how the mitigation us an issue at all. There has never been a savage that required any tank stance at all, barring early prog on a12s for might add and a8s for robots on ice I can't think of any time any co tank or I had to be in tank stance. They simply can't make enough damage for it to be viable.

Sorry for the double post, phone is bugging out

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Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

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Yes we need a DPS nerf, but we NEED DPS UTILITY, not HEALER/DEFENSIVE utility.

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Exactly, the problem will always be the general raid design that will make Paladins utility less valued because our utility is situational/optional unlike straight up more dps, and as long as you can skip phases via better dps the higher-dps tanks will always be the better choice.

pld needs offensive group utility and not more group mitigation. IMO they should replace cover (we already have a better one with Intervention now imo, it's at least not a suicide button most of the time and does not have such a short range) with a group damage buff for burst phases or sth like Dragon Sight. they might have to tweak PLD's personal dps down but then at least the 'support/group utility' theme would fit as the party wouldn't get too much of a damage loss by taking a pld.

SE's balancing goal should not be that groups that take a DRK/WAR have overall more dps than a group with PLD/DRK for example, but that every tank enables the party to do the same amount of damage, either through their own dps (WAR) or their group utility (PLD) (drk should be in the middle)

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Originally Posted by Bravely_Default

Yes we need a DPS nerf, but we NEED DPS UTILITY, not HEALER/DEFENSIVE utility.

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Originally Posted by SunAurel

In agreement

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It sounds like both of you have a problem with the very core of PLD's design. Everyone, including the dev team it seems, wants variety in how PLD contributes its DPS to the raid, meaning we want PLD to allow higher raid DPS by means of healing.

However, it seems you would rather things be much less interesting by having PLD just be a DPS tank and homogenize healing/support utility.

It basically sounds like you want all tanks to be the same, just with different animations.

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

It sounds like both of you have a problem with the very core of PLD's design. Everyone, including the dev team it seems, wants variety in how PLD contributes its DPS to the raid, meaning we want PLD to allow higher raid DPS by means of healing.

However, it seems you would rather things be much less interesting by having PLD just be a DPS tank and homogenize healing/support utility.

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Never gonna happen, pld is supposed to have the most raid utility and need "protect the party" skills, not the most damage. We messed up and have them the highest dps, they plan to fix that which they should.

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

Though everything you said is about pld having both defensive and offensive utility. if drk should be in the middle, give them the trick attack like skill, while pld contributes to the party with their defensive kit taking stress off healers, and war having their own personal dps

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The thing is does pld really do that consistently and noticeable?
A 5k hp shield every 2 minutes that needs heal activation?

A group def buff only useful for phase transitions and doesn t let you attack?

A godmode that you are only able to use once in a Fight + Sentinel still on an unjustifiable long cd compared to Vengeance

And cover still requires you to do Healing bc you take dmg and if there is unfortunate timing or a heal doesn t notice then goodnight

And while clemency is powerful you should use the mp for holy spirit

I guess a good method would be to compare the healer dps/heals needed with pld mt runs and drk mt runs by the same group, i might suggest that to my group later though it's only Lakshmi farm but hey maybe I'll be wiser

I think esp DV needs a lower cd if they want to achieve that + finally affect yourself and PoA effect has to active not when the animation ends, but when you start it

Granted our current examples are Lakshmi and Susano but our healers don't really notice a difference if I use my kit or not

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Originally Posted by Remiilia-vermilion

I really don't wanna get in a long useless argument, but do war and drk do what they should do consistently as well? And tbh, I can't judge about plds helping with their defensive kit, since I haven't seen one really does use it to its full potentials.

And I'd like to say again that pld will never even be near the spot it was in in HW

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Yea, I actually used passage of arms at full potential only once during susano kill run.....with party nearly wiped, healer low on mp and with aoe damage incoming, that one saved the party. After that I used it only for minor things.....

OP is not able to understand that you can't have the best utility and the best dps on the same job. That was the problem with warrior 3.0...

They might not lower the potency, as the answer they gave in the LL was vague. They might increase the cast time and or both increase the recast time, that way it won't line up with Requiescat to boost its damage. If they do lower the potency it would probably go to 200 or they will lower the potency of Requiescat.

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Originally Posted by BlackironTarkus

I'll be frank. It's cause you suck at paladin. Played optimally PLD is doing the highest damage atm and it's one of the easiest to play at that level to boot. After you do your opener it's literally line up Req windows as often as possible. Or is being able to cast 4-5 ranged fellcleaves that hit harder than fell cleave not enough damage for you?

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Yup, I agree. you suck at playing paladin basically if you think the other two are way stronger. The math is in, don't QQ because you can't play the class well Zumi.