The Raid community as we know it

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Originally Posted by Hayward

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Its always weird seeing causal raiders get their undies in a wad over things hardcore raiders say/do. Its a different speed, a different crowd. Not all of them are as bravado as Xeno is about it (hes an entertainer at the end of the day), but generally speaking the hardcore community feels the same way. If you cant carry your own weight you have to go. If that doesnt appeal to you then keep avoiding the PF farms, dont DF solo, and run your weekly FC runs of Deltascape. The hardcore raiders aren't going to post threads about how appalling your behavior is.

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Originally Posted by Annah

However, I do think it is a little creepy that you tried to look me up on the internet lol. Sorry ...but yeah that had to be said in all due respect. :)

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He is likely referring to checking your character on the lodestone. Its pretty common practice to see if someone is blowing smoke out of their rear by checking what they have actually done via gear/achievements. Due diligence isn't "creepy", so don't flatter yourself.

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Originally Posted by Annah

LOL. Um no.

You're not even close.

1. You can raid without name calling. I left that kind of stuff in grade school.
2. You can raid and have fun doing it
3. You can raid and create lasting friendships from folks you meet from those raids.
4. Joking and laughing in discord is permitted without penalty of perjury.
5. There is an equilibrium (oh daaaaaaamn a Sophia pun) with having fun and getting the job done

I'm sorry you do not see these things are possible, but trust me, there are a lot of raiders out there who have fun raiding

Finally, I wished I had a pair..i always wondered what that was like (i heard they feel like a cross between an out of body experience and rolling in freshly mowed grass in slow motion while listening to Air Supply). But that's what I heard :(

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You can't marry the idea of coddling people, and caring about their feelings, with having fun. You can have fun and try your hardest.

Xenos is right in pretty much everything he said, and some of it seemed more lighthearted than serious. What he forgot to mention, that would have tied a nice bow on his point, is that it all depends on what speed of a raid group you're comfortable with. If your group is more casual, obviously they wouldn't really have precedence to be critical of anything.

The whole point is, if you want to get stuff done in a reasonable amount of time, you can't coddle your team. He's not saying everyone in a raid group needs to trash talk each other. That's just his persona, and how his friends have fun, he gave the context for it. He's just saying you can't leave everything at, "Better luck next time, you did alright" when someone is clearly messing up. If you have a raid group that makes a serious goal of clearing, that won't net you results. Fact.

And that's because progression raiding requires you defining the problems causing wipes, and adjusting them appropriately. Sometimes, you will have to single someone out, because they are the cause of you not clearing. Sometimes it's because there's easier ways to handle a mechanic. In some cases, for more binary reasons, like not making a DPS check meaning your DPS just ain't up to par. You're gonna need to criticize someone eventually, and if they don't get better, you won't clear. Ultimately, his group, and any group that cares about clearing efficiently, has no fun sucking or being bad. They have fun by performing. So it's really all about speed. And if you can't be honest about the speed of a raid group you need, you'll have a bad time, regardless of how nice they are.

I watched all of the pod cast. I really didn't see anything offensive. That is just how his raid static does it. He is not saying every static has to do it that way. For the real life job thing above, you have to be more careful with how you dish out criticisms in jobs and real life. You have to do it with more respect rather then trash talk people. If someone tried to trash talk me in real life like some people do in game, I would lay their ass straight on the ground for the disrespect in their tone and actions. You have to be more respectful when you do it in the real world because you don't know how people will react.

Ferrasper makes a great point and I would add in real life, there are laws such as title 7, EEOC reg, ADA, etc. that deter certain behavior seen in online games. But I digress.

This hardcore raider being interviewed could be viewed with a wary eye since one could question his distribution of time and life choices. But, what this kind of player chooses to do and how they go about is ultimately their choice and not, I would argue, for the rest of us to pass judgment. The hardcore raider can contend it's hypocritical for us to criticize them for criticizing others gameplay yet it be ok for us to pass judgment on their approach to a game as an indictment of their life choices.

The hardcore raider would be correct, so again live and let it be.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

He is not saying every static has to do it that way.

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Problem is...there are people who will see that, and say it's the ONLY way. I know people who watch guide videos with "strategy" they ONLY do that. "Why did the tank go to NW instead of W for Thordan?!" that type of thing where it is SLIGHTLY different than what they saw in a video someone posted on the interwebs, but not the exact same.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Sad but true, the problem are not hardcore raid community itself, but the ppl who hear strategies and playstyles without context or research and then want to impose that as the ONLY way to do things, recent guids on mrhappy channel I have to say are trying to fix this behavior by explaining that these are what they used on their kills but are one of many ways to handle a fight, which means that at least they are acknowledging the problem

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Whenever I look at a guide, I only use it as a "Hey, this is a mechanic that's going to happen, be on the lookout and be ready to act". Trial and error are the only other things that I use to figure out where/when to move.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Problem is...there are people who will see that, and say it's the ONLY way. I know people who watch guide videos with "strategy" they ONLY do that. "Why did the tank go to NW instead of W for Thordan?!" that type of thing where it is SLIGHTLY different than what they saw in a video someone posted on the interwebs, but not the exact same.

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Sad but true, the problem are not hardcore raid community itself, but the ppl who hear strategies and playstyles without context or research and then want to impose that as the ONLY way to do things, recent guids on mrhappy channel I have to say are trying to fix this behavior by explaining that these are what they used on their kills but are one of many ways to handle a fight, which means that at least they are acknowledging the problem

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Originally Posted by Hayward

If that guy represents the mentality of the raiding community, I am full glad that I have no part of it.

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You do know that raiders generally have statics, right? Like, a group of eight relatively like-minded people that meet up several times a week to bash their heads against bosses for a few hours?

Xeno and 7th have espoused a sort of comically asshole-ish elitism amongst their ilk, and that works for them. What works for Xeno's group is most assuredly not what works for all groups. Personally, I have been in similar (but milder) raid groups in the past, and always knew to take the insults in stride since we were all friends.

Moreover, what he says isn't inherently wrong - people mess up in raids, and they need to be told that they messed up. Do you need to call them a retard, etc for messing up? Probably not, but if you handle your fellow teammates with kid gloves, then they are never going to improve.

With regard to ending up in a group of people like Xeno (if you catch them in terror roulette, or something), just leave if it bothers you.

I actually wound up on Xeno's stream back in Midas (when he was attempting to help our static), and believe it or not, in spite of my pretty mediocre performance, no one said anything "toxic."

Xeno's elitism is part of his persona. That's what works for him, his static and his audience. I wouldn't take the attitude of one relatively infamous "bully" to represent the entirety of the raiding community.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

When raiders allow people with his kind of attitude, why do they wonder why more people don't raid?

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I don't think a lot of people are sitting around wondering why more people don't raid. Raiding is difficult. It takes a lot of time, skill and dedication. Generally speaking, it requires people to be better than average at their jobs. Final Fantasy XIV is, for the most part, a very casual game, and the majority of players are completely content with being casual.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

Ferrasper makes a great point and I would add in real life, there are laws such as title 7, EEOC reg, ADA, etc. that deter certain behavior seen in online games. But I digress.

This hardcore raider being interviewed could be viewed with a wary eye since one could question his distribution of time and life choices. But, what this kind of player chooses to do and how they go about is ultimately their choice and not, I would argue, for the rest of us to pass judgment. The hardcore raider can contend it's hypocritical for us to criticize them for criticizing others gameplay yet it be ok for us to pass judgment on their approach to a game as an indictment of their life choices.

The hardcore raider would be correct, so again live and let it be.

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There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game and actively causing or encouraging people to quit the game so they can raid more "without those casuals causing a wipe"

If a raid group kicks a player for any reason not direct attributed to making the game unbearable, that is griefing. Kicking people because they haven't got melded BiS gear, or certain achievements or minions is just plain griefing and people who do that are the ones who need to grow up. If you don't want to play with the filthy casuals, then never touch the DF without a static party. Life does not give you the perfect team, ever, in the job or school environment, learn to adapt, or make certain you always have your dream team ready. But let me tell you, in reality, you don't get to pick people who get to work with you, and a perfect team comes with time and promotion from within, not by poaching the most experienced.

Hence you can avoid most of the drama inside a MMO video game by being extremely selective about what raiders you play with, and what guilds you join. I'd actually suggest people completely avoid guilds that have any presence outside the single video game they are playing to avoid encroachment on your personal/family life.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Xeno's elitism is part of his persona. That's what works for him, his static and his audience. I wouldn't take the attitude of one relatively infamous "bully" to represent the entirety of the raiding community.


I don't think a lot of people are sitting around wondering why more people don't raid. Raiding is difficult. It takes a lot of time, skill and dedication. Generally speaking, it requires people to be better than average at their jobs. Final Fantasy XIV is, for the most part, a very casual game, and the majority of players are completely content with being casual.

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That's not excusable. Nobody is asking for everyone to be a sweet cupcake, because sometimes you do need someone to be "Dr.House" and give it to you straight, but the entire point of "Dr.House" was that he lacked bedside manner or tact, because he only took cases that were challenging. He absolutely did everything possible to avoid doing anything easy. If your patient thinks the pills you prescribe them make their pee smell funny so they stopped taking them, you want the doctor to say "You will ****ing die if you don't take those pills. That is on YOU, not ME."

Hence in a raid, if there is a wipe, identify the problem, not WHO cause the problem. Not enough DPS, ask who can do better. Can't heal through damage, ask if anyone can switch with the healer. Tank is instant-killed on a certain mechanic, switch tanks, etc. If someone you play with simply can't play any role, as apparent by always taking dirt naps as DPS, then perhaps that person needs to try a different DPS. You get absolutely nowhere by kicking people because they aren't the top 1% DPS on a third party unverifiable website.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game and actively causing or encouraging people to quit the game so they can raid more "without those casuals causing a wipe"

If a raid group kicks a player for any reason not direct attributed to making the game unbearable, that is griefing. Kicking people because they haven't got melded BiS gear, or certain achievements or minions is just plain griefing and people who do that are the ones who need to grow up. If you don't want to play with the filthy casuals, then never touch the DF without a static party. Life does not give you the perfect team, ever, in the job or school environment, learn to adapt, or make certain you always have your dream team ready. But let me tell you, in reality, you don't get to pick people who get to work with you, and a perfect team comes with time and promotion from within, not by poaching the most experienced.

Hence you can avoid most of the drama inside a MMO video game by being extremely selective about what raiders you play with, and what guilds you join. I'd actually suggest people completely avoid guilds that have any presence outside the single video game they are playing to avoid encroachment on your personal/family life.

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What if you think the game is unbearable if you have to play with people who don't have melded gear, certain achievements, or minions? Isn't SE's stance that "playstyle differences" are a valid reason to kick someone? That's so vague and open ended that for all intents and purposes it's basically never griefing to kick someone, unless perhaps you spell out in chat or something that you desire to kick them just to antagonize them.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I watched all of the pod cast. I really didn't see anything offensive. That is just how his raid static does it. He is not saying every static has to do it that way. For the real life job thing above, you have to be more careful with how you dish out criticisms in jobs and real life. You have to do it with more respect rather then trash talk people. If someone tried to trash talk me in real life like some people do in game, I would lay their ass straight on the ground for the disrespect in their tone and actions. You have to be more respectful when you do it in the real world because you don't know how people will react.

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Bragging about how you'd physically assault someone for saying mean things to you doesn't exactly make you look any better.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game.

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What? I mean it, the question is.. what?
There are more people who spread out bad play than ''toxic'' play that you say. In fact you dont need to be doing that 1% to even raid, yo can be that 10% of the player community. You know what triggers me? All these people asking for nerf and such for a main story trial, doesn't that tell you anything? In fact... we know who's to blame for them not bothering. You see it here, in game and you see it in other threads. ''It's just a game'' ''no need to bother because it's just a game'' You see, I don't disagree it's a game, however, doesnt mean you should have attitude of not trying. When people sponsor bad play this happens...

The problem with the raiding community--and I used to be a part of it--is not the message from some raiders, but how they say it, the words they choose, and the tone they employ. MrHappy's guest is indicative of this problem. The way raiders speak to each other, this would not pass in any workplace and if friends started to talk that way, they'd find themselves friendless rather quickly.

Now are all raiders like that? No, of course not. I used to run my raid teams on the pillars of respect and maturity. However, this is the exception, not the norm, and for a lot of people--including myself, an ex-raider--it is far too stressful to bother with raiding outside of PUGs (where I can freely not have to deal with the immature players in voice and can ignore chat / whispers in-game).

Until the upper raiding community realizes the toxic behaviour they promote, the top end raid community will keep getting smaller and smaller. It's a shame too, because raiding is such a fun activity. It's not fun when raiders treat others so deplorably.

Also, in case anyone brings it up, being aggressive, yelling at people, threatening others, this does not make anyone play better nor will they learn. I'm a teacher by trade. This sort of "methodology" only pushes learners away.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Hence in a raid, if there is a wipe, identify the problem, not WHO cause the problem. Not enough DPS, ask who can do better. Can't heal through damage, ask if anyone can switch with the healer. Tank is instant-killed on a certain mechanic, switch tanks, etc. If someone you play with simply can't play any role, as apparent by always taking dirt naps as DPS, then perhaps that person needs to try a different DPS. You get absolutely nowhere by kicking people because they aren't the top 1% DPS on a third party unverifiable website.

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How about instead of that, do what works best for your own static?

I'm not sure what you are on about with regard to switching and all that jazz. Roles don't tend to be super malleable in a savage-tier static (particularly this early on when most people only have a few 70s). What does the meta dictate is the best? Learn how to play it well and then bring some of those jobs. We aren't talking about running optimized Omega normals here. No one cares about that.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

.Also, in case anyone brings it up, being aggressive, yelling at people, threatening others, this does not make anyone play better nor will they learn. I'm a teacher by trade. This sort of "methodology" only pushes learners away.

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Okay let me generalize then....
Example one: I had a whm in lvl 67 dungeon, healing and dpsing hard and I was still alive. The SCH I had before didn't dps and I never expected it but I died to the trash pull before first bos 5 times just saying. You see this is where I will generalize.... Hes like that because he doesn't need to do try, because many in here say so.... In extreme primals it's fine to wipe a whole group till time almost over, as long it's dead before duty end that's all what matters, I can even quote people in this thread saying this... Then you have the person who comes in a group when everyone have experience but that last giy doesn't need to do it, as long hes having fun, why not ruin it for the rest right? Want me to quote that too?

Honestly I think majority here who raids on this forum isn't even part of the 1% everyone talks about.. I mean the top world raiders who goes for world first. The rest doesn't. In fact since EVERY raider is so toxic, why do people even ask them for help? Yet look at their guides or such things? If people are so much less toxic, why not just follow them and play like they do? Nobody said anything you need to do what raiders do, do your own thing but don't expect to clear when everyone in the group has a lazy mentality in it. Join static with your own mentality, shouldn't that make you happy?

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Originally Posted by SlogDog

It was an interesting discussion I thought.

I was much more offended when i listened to some casual groups podcast for healing (NEST? Reddit is always wanking em' off) and they were giving horrible, awful advice. I mean if you ever watched their LOL FUNNY raids you wouldn't listen to anything they said but I do worry for the more inexperienced looking around for some healer advice and stumbling onto something like that.

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Yeah, there was a reddit thread created by someone in one of the Discord servers I'm in. While I don't necessarily agree with the way he went about it, I think I sort of agree with his point, which someone else nicely stated in a comment reply.

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The problem isnt healer should dps vs shouldn't dps. It's when you dont play efficiently with random people. At that point it's not just your time its 3-7 other people.(Not counting 24 mans cause that's another ballpark). However, if you're on a team whos ok with you not dpsing as a healer becuase your team isn't out to be cutting edge, then that's fine. Cause at that point your team knows about it and shouldn't mind it. Also, if they get results, much like NEST does, then go for it.

Now on my own personal stance, healers should dps to be efficient. Hopefully with healer dps scaling off of MND in SB. Coupled with the removal of CS it should help some healers make that final leap into dpsing more comfortably. As now you won't get caught in CS at a bad time when you need to heal. We will just need to see how it pans out in the next few weeks.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ull_of_myself/

This is a response to that. And I sort of agree with him. Especially with Omega recently, there are sometimes mechanics that stack on top of each other so playing reactively isn't the best. I'd say the main thing I'm upset is that this advice may be followed by newer players who don't know any better.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

What? I mean it, the question is.. what?
There are more people who spread out bad play than ''toxic'' play that you say. In fact you dont need to be doing that 1% to even raid, yo can be that 10% of the player community. You know what triggers me? All these people asking for nerf and such for a main story trial, doesn't that tell you anything? In fact... we know who's to blame for them not bothering. You see it here, in game and you see it in other threads. ''It's just a game'' ''no need to bother because it's just a game'' You see, I don't disagree it's a game, however, doesnt mean you should have attitude of not trying. When people sponsor bad play this happens...

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Yep.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...being/dg7jnbe/

@OP
Way to generalize an entire community. Getting all worked up for nothing, so idiotic.

I have a solution. Chat options > general chat channel > party/alliance chat switched OFF.

Let them scream into that uncaring void for a bit :)

Generalizing a entire community because you got your delicate little feelings hurt by some words said by a hardcore raider on a podcast...really? If the way he does things and says things somehow surprises you, you've clearly never raided on a hardcore, world/server first level, like ever. Xeno doesn't sugar coat things, if you aren't performing at a acceptable level or constantly messing mechanics he will bluntly call you out. This kind of stuff isn't new. I'm trying to figure out why you are so triggered by what someone that you will likely never play with says about something that doesn't affect you.

Actually, there are TONS of people out there who thinks they need to behave like the world-class raiders do, with the same ammount of toxicity and ill behavior, to clear stuff. You see it all the time in PFs and even some midcore and casual statics. It's absurd.

1. Don't take Xeno as god. He plays well and knows his class. I notice a lot of people hold him up on this crazy pedestal.
2. He is specifically talking about his group and how they treat each other, not the community as a whole.
3. I know people who are just like him. They are "elitist" so to speak... but when it comes to clearing content they have every right to be.
4. Often the "Jerks" of the raid community also tend to be the most helpful. If you know them and are in the same FC as them and have questions they are usually willing to help. They want people to be better.
5. Ill bet he is actually a nice guy in general. I don't know him nor will I ever meet him in game or out but he seems like a decent enough guy.

Not every raider is out to get you and make you feel miserable about yourself or treat you like you're a lesser human.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Hence in a raid, if there is a wipe, identify the problem, not WHO cause the problem. Not enough DPS, ask who can do better. Can't heal through damage, ask if anyone can switch with the healer. Tank is instant-killed on a certain mechanic, switch tanks, etc. If someone you play with simply can't play any role, as apparent by always taking dirt naps as DPS, then perhaps that person needs to try a different DPS. You get absolutely nowhere by kicking people because they aren't the top 1% DPS on a third party unverifiable website.

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Just switching classes/roles is not always an option. Sure a tank can switch from ie WAR to DRK during a raid tier without problem. But you can't just switch a DPS to a healer. All the drops that DPS (and the healer they are going to replace) got will be wasted and this hurts your progression.
And you really shouldn't sugar coat it too if people don't perform at a level needed to clear the content. But instead of only saying "u suck" you should try and find solutions that will work for your group. Send the DPS that doesn't do enough DPS out to learn their rotation on a dummy. Maybe change some strategies so someone else handles a mechanic. Maybe have your tanks switch their OT/MT position. Have your healers rethink their approach.
But if you just tolerate someone underperforming (this is relative to your groups performance, not absolute measured to the world's top players.)/constantly tripping over mechanics this will drag down everyone else and eventually your static will die from it, I've seen it happen enough times.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Actually, there are TONS of people out there who thinks they need to behave like the world-class raiders do, with the same ammount of toxicity and ill behavior, to clear stuff. You see it all the time in PFs and even some midcore and casual statics. It's absurd.

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Its the behavior they see, unfortunately. And alot of people defend it, so people respond like they have to be like the jerk on twitch, or constantly defend themselves from the slightest hint of criticism.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

What? I mean it, the question is.. what?
There are more people who spread out bad play than ''toxic'' play that you say.

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The funny part is that I was once in a "debate" with Kisai where they were trying to promote the idea that regen was situational and a bad skill to use constantly because it generates too much enmity. I've been ignoring all of their posts and not taking anything they say about high-level play since that debate.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The funny part is that I was once in a "debate" with Kisai where they were trying to promote the idea that regen was situational and a bad skill to use constantly because it generates too much enmity. I've been ignoring all of their posts and not taking anything they say about high-level play since that debate.

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Their video showed it too, medica spam on a dps that's not even close by.

I love xenos

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Originally Posted by MyaValentine

with this little amount of context into what you are talking I find it hard to know whats your point? toxic people being toxic? 1 person doesn't represent an entire community it's 2017 we should know this by now, still I don't understand what this has to do with the raiding community, there's nice people and toxic people on every side of every coin casual, hardcore, raiding or not. whatever this person did to trigger you should not blame a entire community because of him, that will make you no better than the person you are mad about.

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Extremely well said.

Seen plenty of casual a-holes and nice hardcores in my time as well.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If a raid group kicks a player for any reason not direct attributed to making the game unbearable, that is griefing. Kicking people because they haven't got melded BiS gear, or certain achievements or minions is just plain griefing and people who do that are the ones who need to grow up.

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I'm curious why you think the other 7 party members can't decide who they want to play with in a premade party.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game and actively causing or encouraging people to quit the game so they can raid more "without those casuals causing a wipe"

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They do raid ""without those casuals causing a wipe"" because the players like that have their own statics.

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Originally Posted by Elim

I find some casuals to be more toxic, honestly. A decent amount of them are cry bullies or rip your face off while frothing at the mouth if you make a simple suggestion.

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It's either this or the more entertaining ones who think they're Yoshida's Pick for Raider of The Year and yet, they're the ones causing the wipes. Oopsy.

There are TONS of completely shitty toxic statics that will never clear a savage fight, as well as tons of super care bear statics that will clear the entirety of savage. People are different, and the point of a static is to build it with like-minded people. If you join a hardcore static and then refuse to meld BiS VI's into your gear, you're GOING to be kicked, and you have no right to be mad about it.

This game doesn't have a "raiding community". It has statics that are completely independent from one another. No person represents the raiding community because raiding is wildly different from static to static. They had Xeno on the podcast because he is a prominent youtube/twitch raider who has a large following in comparison to other FF raiders. Obviously people like how he does things, or he wouldn't be nearly as popular as he is. There are also tons of people who will never watch a video of his cause they think he's too harsh. Who cares? If you want a carebear static, go to the recruitment forums and look for a laid back midcore group. If you want to be the next xeno, start your own static and call everyone dumbasses.

I'm sure they appreciate the free advertising lol

There are certainly situations where if you want to make progress you have to speak up about what needs to be improved. I personally am overly critical of myself, if I screw something up everyone will know by the obscenities coming across their speakers lol. But a lot of times people simply don't realize they are messing up or that they could be doing such and such better, or they simply play it off hoping no one will notice. So you're only hurting yourself, and the group, if those kind of things aren't discussed. It doesn't have to be hateful or callous, and most of the time it's not. I would say, however, the closer you are as friends outside of raid, the higher your tolerance for trash talk will be.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

being aggressive, yelling at people, this does not make anyone play better nor will they learn. I'm a teacher by trade. This sort of "methodology" only pushes learners away.

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Teaching kids in a classroom and leading a high-pressure savage raid are two very different things. Xeno himself says that HE even plays better when people call him out when he screws up. That's proof right there that your ideas on teaching are invalid across mediums that aren't classroom-based. The atmosphere that severely harsh raid leaders create is one filled with pressure and anxiety only if you're just not good enough to play at that level. If you are the epitome of perfect in your class, you don't have to worry about being yelled at because you'll never screw up anyway. If you get yelled at constantly cause you're screwing up constantly, then not only are you in the wrong raid group, but you're probably doing content that's too hard for you in the first place.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Yeah, there was a reddit thread created by someone in one of the Discord servers I'm in. While I don't necessarily agree with the way he went about it, I think I sort of agree with his point, which someone else nicely stated in a comment reply.



https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ull_of_myself/

This is a response to that. And I sort of agree with him. Especially with Omega recently, there are sometimes mechanics that stack on top of each other so playing reactively isn't the best. I'd say the main thing I'm upset is that this advice may be followed by newer players who don't know any better.



Yep.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...being/dg7jnbe/

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I'm not going to get into the debate about DPS but their prediction for SB made me sad. I get my heart smashed constantly... I mean I gave up a fun aspect of my job, one i enjoyed, so that other healers would be more comfortable... but i still see sub 100 dps healers. I still see people defending them. I still see healers giving horrible advice trying to deflect their own shortcomings including "there is so much variety in heal styles!".

I agree with the thread and its sad to see people defending them. Like I said they can be horrible and fluff around all day- I don't have to deal with them, but soon as you give advice we have an issue.

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Originally Posted by Annah

ah ok ..if thats the case he wont get a whole lot of dps since I heal in raids with the occasional dps here and there

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Classic.

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Originally Posted by SlogDog

I'm not going to get into the debate about DPS but their prediction for SB made me sad. I get my heart smashed constantly... I mean I gave up a fun aspect of my job, one i enjoyed, so that other healers would be more comfortable... but i still see sub 100 dps healers. I still see people defending them. I still see healers giving horrible advice trying to deflect their own shortcomings including "there is so much variety in heal styles!".

I agree with the thread and its sad to see people defending them. Like I said they can be horrible and fluff around all day- I don't have to deal with them, but soon as you give advice we have an issue.

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I agree. I was doing Omega yesterday and in v3 there was a mentor healer just idling when there was no healing needed. It made me really sad.

Yeah, if she wants to do that with her group, that's fine. I don't have to play with her. But the fact that she's giving bad advice to new players is the problem I have.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'm sure they appreciate the free advertising lol

There are certainly situations where if you want to make progress you have to speak up about what needs to be improved. I personally am overly critical of myself, if I screw something up everyone will know by the obscenities coming across their speakers lol. But a lot of times people simply don't realize they are messing up or that they could be doing such and such better, or they simply play it off hoping no one will notice. So you're only hurting yourself, and the group, if those kind of things aren't discussed. It doesn't have to be hateful or callous, and most of the time it's not. I would say, however, the closer you are as friends outside of raid, the higher your tolerance for trash talk will be.

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That's why hardcore raiding would never work for me. I have anxiety issues and if people start to focus on me that only increases my chance of failing more. I'd imagine that would be true for a lot more people.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There would be no problem with that if the hardcore raiders weren't spreading their toxic playstyle to the rest of the game and actively causing or encouraging people to quit the game so they can raid more "without those casuals causing a wipe"

If a raid group kicks a player for any reason not direct attributed to making the game unbearable, that is griefing.

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People need to have a mind of their own. Just because Xeno, MrHappy or anyone else says something doesn't mean everyone should necessarily take it as the gospel nor are they responsible for those who do. They aren't encouraging anything. If you dislike their respective styles or the audience who is drawn towards it, don't participate.

No, it isn't. Putting aside we have GMs specifically quoted claiming kicks are justifiable for any reason. If I put up a Party Finder, I am free to restrict it however I please. That includes excluding people who don't meld, use food, DPS on healer or wear Fending gear. I could do something stupid like demand meta groups for Shinryu. If these perimeters aren't to your fancy, you are free to leave. You cannot, however, force me to accept you won't meld. The only thing we can't outright do is post parse numbers to shame other players publicly. Anything else is entirely fair game. Don't like, leave the parties who enforce it.

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That's not excusable. Nobody is asking for everyone to be a sweet cupcake, because sometimes you do need someone to be "Dr.House" and give it to you straight, but the entire point of "Dr.House" was that he lacked bedside manner or tact, because he only took cases that were challenging. He absolutely did everything possible to avoid doing anything easy. If your patient thinks the pills you prescribe them make their pee smell funny so they stopped taking them, you want the doctor to say "You will ****ing die if you don't take those pills. That is on YOU, not ME."

Hence in a raid, if there is a wipe, identify the problem, not WHO cause the problem. Not enough DPS, ask who can do better. Can't heal through damage, ask if anyone can switch with the healer. Tank is instant-killed on a certain mechanic, switch tanks, etc. If someone you play with simply can't play any role, as apparent by always taking dirt naps as DPS, then perhaps that person needs to try a different DPS. You get absolutely nowhere by kicking people because they aren't the top 1% DPS on a third party unverifiable website.

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They don't do that. They are simply brutally honest-- think along the lines of "Well that was fucking retarded. How about not standing next to the tank like a dumbass?" Aggressive, yes, but that's the style they happen to like. If you don't, stay out of their parties. And it isn't like Xeno suddenly goes off on a verbal beat down for every little mistake. I've been in his parties before. The only time he starts getting pissed is when people continuously make the same dumb mistakes, especially if they refuse to own up to them. He's far more tolerant in learning parties, for instance. Hell, he's stayed with people for hours just to help them clear. It's the people he feels has wasted his time or have no interest in self improvement where his patience wanes.

People are not obligated to coddle nor make you feel good. There is a reason every video game with an online component specifically mentions "online experience may change." And before you go on about griefing. GMs will not do anything should someone call you names over discord. They only care if it happens directly in-game.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

PThey only care if it happens directly in-game.

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I know tons of people who play with xeno and he can be blunt but such a great guy. The fact he helps a lot of players, guides to savage raids, tank perspective etc and so on. I would also get mad if someone makes mistake plenty of times when they shouldn't. The sad part is the same excuse always comes ''as long the duty is done doesn't matter how long it takes'' Or ''its just a game we all play for fun'' FF14 is highly pointed as a big pve game with good story, and pve means shit has to die simple as that. Many often think it's funny for the other people in group to wipe all over again and again.

To make it simple when you are good at something, you want to get in and out fast, not screwing around thinking its okay.

I saw the broadcast, you need to understand that he is taking raiding seriously. He stated many, many times that his response is towards serious endgame raiding, not casual content like dungeons and story trials. Even when talking about raiding, it is for those who take it hardcore. Cus' raiding can be casual.

He also stated that he will point out when people screw their rotations or make a mistake, INCLUDING himself. And his group can do the same to him. I see nothing wrong with that.

If anything, many people look up to be as good as him. He writes guides and gives back to the community. As a person, he is not bad at all. He doesn't mean to harm you in any way.

I bet many of you say bad stuff about people in PF/DF (we have a popular thread about this). Even if you don't type it in party chat. But you do say nasty stuff about the bad players you run into. How is he any different?

To all complainers in here, what have you contributed as a person/player to the community? Any guides? Anything on rotations? I would like to see that, since they love to badmouth someone they don't even know, in fact bad mouth someone who actually helps people. Please give us some content you worked on. I know I wont see any and we all know why :')

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

To all complainers in here, what have you contributed as a person/player to the community? Any guides? Anything on rotations? I would like to see that, since they love to badmouth someone they don't even know, in fact bad mouth someone who actually helps people. Please give us some content you worked on. I know I wont see any and we all know why :')

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If I draw a diagram or had a twitch channel then that makes it ok for me to be rude to others

Edited my last response: I will admit it was too crass

*gets drawing schematics and rotation formulas right away while i licensed a twitch channel

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Originally Posted by Annah

cool!

So if i draw a diagram for you, then that means I can belittle people in my party?

Did not know that!


*gets drawing schematics and rotation formulas right away while i licensed a twitch channel

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Players with a mindset like you are worse than any "elitist".