A detailed Reaction to Warrior in SB

And onslaught... really? Why the heck does it cost rage? Like really.

Someone computed something or other that onslaught potency per rage is not that bad. Well, who cares? Who wants to use onslaught for dps purposes anyhow? And between maxing fell cleaves and upheaval I don't have extra rage for onslaught.

And inner release us bugged too. Delta one boss knockback will knock you back even if you have Inner release on. Also, some hunt bosses stuns WILL stun even with inner release on.

Annoying as heck...

I think any status effect Paladins can cheese avoid with Hallowed (e.g. Susano's slashing debuff) should be removable by Shake It Off. I think that would give some use to the skill at least.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

IB was changed afterwards to what it was in 3.0, being a 100% self heal with a 20% dmg mitigation for 6 seconds which I liked.

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I remember. Old IB was my lifeblood tbqh- It's almost the entire reason I started tanking in the first place. Early on, with full darklight or AF+1 if you knew -exactly- what you were doing, it allowed for almost complete healer independence in WP and AK. It was great. I of course realized right after 2.1 hit that I wouldn't have been able to even do EX trials much less continue with Coil(We had a static, but never got past t2) with how old Warrior was, but I'm still sore about losing the freedom that old IB gave me.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Eh, it was brought up by a really good tank mentor here. I do agree they gutted the identity of the job. Combining offensive tools with defensive tools was really fun.

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Not that no one brings it up, just not brought up as often as I'd like.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Having thought about it a bit more, there's few things I'd want for WAR. Increased self healing on IB, perhaps 150%, and SP restoring some 75% of its done would make the job feel a tad better, IMHO. Cut the gauge cost to a flat 20-30, and for Upheaval to have a bit more of a burst to it. I still like Onslaught's trading some gauge for a quick rush in to reposition or pick up adds, but a small buff to 110pot wouldn't be poor.

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The self heal on path always felt completely pointless to me. The amount is way too low considering you can use it only once every 3rd hit in a combo at absolute best. Regardless, I love you for supporting a buffed IB heal. I'm on the side that dancing just shouldn't cost anything at all and neither should Onslaught, though. Actually, Onslaught should actually GENERATE gauge, to me. Considering how much we actually use and depend on it compared to everyone else, the speed of our gauge generation just isn't high enough at all.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Warriors get 25% more health (Allowing them to 'take' the same raw damage as any other tank with the same baseline tank stance) and 20% more healing (which gets them to about the same ease of healing). The healing bonus doesn't apply to draining effects. They 'passively' mitigate as much as any other tank. Paladins get the addition of a shield which is what Innerbeast effectively puts on demand.

I'd argue as far as outside solo play, the self healing on Storm Path is negligible at best while on Innerbeast, was effectively unchanged (350 potency from 300 is a 16.6% boost. 88% healing on IB is a 12% loss. 1.16 * .88 = 1.02)

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About that- it was years ago now, but I'm pretty sure someone on the forums did the math if you wanted to dig that up. IB itself was never actually meant to be used as a defensive cooldown- I mean it works great as one of course, but it's net benefit was roughly the same as that that a paladin has always gotten simply by holding a shield and standing there.
On top of that, Defiance itself is and always has been worse than shield oath/grit in terms of defensive capability. Though after a Warrior has been healed (after initial activation) and assuming identical healers are constantly healing the Warrior as they would a Paladin, Defiance and Shield Oath are effectively identical (there's an EXTREMELY small eHP difference between the two- Shield Oath is on top but it's completely negligible.) yes, but Shield Oath has always come ahead even after the buff because of how it interacts with other cooldowns. I don't remember the exacts(the math, again, is from like 2.1 or so. It should be on the forums though if you were interested.) but essentially it came down to cooldowns being more effective across the board in terms of eHP granted, even before the shield was accounted for(which has always made Paladin flat out better at not dying.) Not to mention Warrior specific CDs(Bloodbath, Holmgang, Thrill, Veng) have always been 1:1 worse than their Paladin equivalents. I'm not going to pick apart individual skills here though since that's something that people who are smarter than me will do.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

Regardless, I love you for supporting a buffed IB heal. I'm on the side that dancing just shouldn't cost anything at all and neither should Onslaught, though. Actually, Onslaught should actually GENERATE gauge, to me. Considering how much we actually use and depend on it compared to everyone else, the speed of our gauge generation just isn't high enough at all.

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Eh. I don't think a lack of cost is a good thing. It dumbs down the gameplay, IMHO. I find a reasonable cost a lot more fun. Ironically, though, SAM and WAR generate gauge at around the same rate. Actually, I'd say WAR generates it a twice as fast! Which is amusing to me, because SAM uses their gauge a lot more than WAR. Maybe that's why it doesn't really bug me. I like the Onslaught cost, and all I'd want is for the beast gauge cost to drop to a reasonable 20.

Incidentally, in 9 GCDS, SAM generates 55 of their gauge. WAR generates 80.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Eh. I don't think a lack of cost is a good thing. It dumbs down the gameplay, IMHO. I find a reasonable cost a lot more fun. Ironically, though, SAM and WAR generate gauge at around the same rate. Actually, I'd say WAR generates it a twice as fast! Which is amusing to me, because SAM uses their gauge a lot more than WAR. Maybe that's why it doesn't really bug me.

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Kind of. Samurai uses it more but the amounts are much smaller. One ogcd that costs 50(on a 2 minute cd) and the rest is 20. Also, faster attacks due to Kasha and also Hagakure is on a shorter CD than Infuriate. Meanwhile, Warrior's two most important skills all cost 50, stance dancing halves it(though it just shouldn't, regardless of if you're in the no cost camp or the fixed/capped cost camp), our two gauge AoEs also cost 50, Onslaught is basically useless in most circumstances because of how it'd screw up our rotation due to the cost, and our answer to Meikyo Shisui(Inner Release) also costs 20 for some reason.

...Upheaval is basically perfect to me though. :>

Regardless, it's totally possible to have complexity come without hindering adaptability. Removing costs on Onslaught and stance isn't necessarily dumbing it down at all.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

There has to be some logical reason they literally took away basically every single positive WITHOUT replacing them. There has to be a logical reason why they made us more stance oriented then ever yet punished us so badly for doing what the design of the class literally encourages us to do.

Them running out of time in tuning the class would explain it. And we basically have one chance with savage to get things fixed, if not we're PLD 2.0 for SB.

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I feel like it has less to do with them running out of time and more to do with them simply having no idea of what they're doing when it comes to balancing. Since for some strange reason it often feels like SE believes that "balancing" means buffing the current least desirable choice sky high. While also at the same time nerfing the most desirable choices into the ground.

Though given that seems absolutely nonsensical I feel like two different teams that don't communicate probably handle buffing and nerfing. Because otherwise it doesn't make any sense at all as to why they overtuned PLD so greatly while gutting WAR/DRK so much in comparison. Since it doesn't take a genius to realize that making one single Tank excel at literally everything with no downsides and making the other 2 Tanks so outright inferior is a bad idea.

SAM actually doesn't have an answer to Inner Release, barring maybe Hagakure. And while the amounts may be smaller, WAR still generates their moves a lot quicker, or at least at a similar pace, alternating between 4-6 GCD while it takes SAM 5 to generate kenki for their main move, which costs 25. Namely, that's Shinten.

I could not write it better, good job in making this thread.

I played as war in HW, and I agree 100% with you.

Normally I never voice up my thoughts, but I am so so utterly disappointed.
I mean, do they not play their own game?
The whole experience in game play as war, changed.

How is it even possible.....

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Originally Posted by testname

I could not write it better, good job in making this thread.

I played as war in HW, and I agree 100% with you.

Normally I never voice up my thoughts, but I am so so utterly disappointed.
I mean, do they not play their own game?
The whole experience in game play as war, changed.

How is it even possible.....

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I'm pretty quiet too, but I was so disappointed in SB that I had to come on here and voice my disappointment.

Some comments and replies to the OP's points:

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

So let's start off with tank role abilities and moves that were removed.

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I'd take that a step further and say that SE went overboard with how they implemented role actions. Looking at the level spread of actions and how they were implemented, they seem to have had two goals: keep the cross-class system and re-use the slots that used to be the numerous traits classes and jobs used to have.

They did strip a bit much from the jobs as a result, but also created another set of false choices in an attempt to create diversity by giving you a limited number of role action slots and a greater number of role skills (thus keeping the mechanics of the cross-class system).

I expected role actions to behave more like skills naturally gained as you level. An example being that at, say, lv16, GLA, MRD and DRK all gained Provoke. No need to assign it. It just appears on your action bar. The last thing I expected or wanted was the cross-class interface with a different coat of paint.

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Stance Dancing's removal cripples WAR more then any other class in the entire game.

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Before I say more on this, full disclosure: the cries of "stance dancing is dead" are what got me to level WAR first instead of PLD. PLD has been my main since ARR, by the way.

My issue with the way WAR players push stance dancing is that there's literally no mechanical benefit to switching stances. This was also the case in HW, where the only thing that changed was the effects of Equilibrium (and WAR had so much self healing that Equi's Defiance effect was seen as worthless). It's not like you have extra utility, mobility or mechanics tied to switching between Defiance and Deliverance; only DPS increases, which do not fit into the above categories.

So if you want stance-dancing to become a thing for WAR, the first thing SE needs to do is design WAR around stance-dancing. Right now, what WAR has is mere counterpart abilities split between the stances. If you want a damage increase in Defiance, you have Unchained. If you want a damage increase in Deliverance, you have Inner Release. If you want a resource spender that hits harder than your weaponskills, you have Inner Beast in Defiance and Fel Cleave in Deliverance. You want AoE, you have Steel Cyclone in one and Decimate in the other. The only reason this looks like a problem is because the skills are not gained in proximity to each other, but instead over huge level gaps (one of the reasons why I believe Defiance needs to enter the game around lv10-15 and Deliverance should enter the game at lv30).

There's ways to make the practice worthwhile without involving numbers too much. For example, Onslaught could have a reduced cooldown but cost gauge when in Deliverance, but have threat bonuses and cost nothing when in Defiance. Storm's Path could deal higher damage when in Deliverance (to replace Butcher's Block), and instead convert 100% of damage dealt to HP when in Defiance. Fracture could come back as a skill that decreases damage dealt to you by the mob for X seconds in Defiance, but could instead act as a stun that deals damage in Deliverance.

If WAR were to be taken in this direction (in combination with Defiance losing the extra HP/healing received and WAR gaining a skill that switched you from one stance to the other), then I wouldn't have much of a problem with stance dancing, as the core of the gameplay is less "muh deepz" and more about tactical decisions involving skill effects in their respective stances. You can even remove the cooldown between the stances at that point and possibly create a maximum cap of gauge transferred between stances.

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Continuing onwards, if WAR wants that "amazing" self heal in equilibrium it needs to be in defiance or it needs to switch to defiance.

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This is basically SE's way of saying "stay/spend most of your time in Defiance while tanking if you want self-healing". I am personally fine with this.

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New abilities. PLD got five new skills.

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The short list:
Onslaught - I've said it before, this thing needs to generate 20 gauge, have a minimum distance of 10y to use, and cost no gauge. Gap-closers shouldn't be fillers between GCDs, but skills you reserve for closing gaps.
Upheaval - Good filler. No complaints here.
Shake it off - I'll admit this would be good in situations where the mob debuffs the WAR and the healers never set Esuna. Which almost never happens. The concept fits the WAR, but a "hit me to increase my damage/mitigation for x seconds" skill would have worked better.

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Zero unique team utility.

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100% agree. I don't know why they didn't make the PvP action Thrill of War into a raid cooldown for WAR. I also once suggested a skill called Intimidation that reduced damage dealt by the mob for 10s. Either or would have worked, IMO.

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Lastly, the class is simply just not fun to play (IMO).

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While I understand that you don't like the design approach, I don't really understand the teeth-gnashing I've been seeing over not using every skill all the time. It reminds me of the people who complained that Clemency is not used all day, every day by PLD back when it was introduced. It's almost on the same level as if a MNK were to complain about how they're not filling every GCD with old One Ilm Punch or Arm of the Destroyer.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

quip quip ...It reminds me of the people who complained that Clemency is not used all day, every day by PLD back when it was introduced. It's almost on the same level as if a MNK were to complain about how they're not filling every GCD with old One Ilm Punch or Arm of the Destroyer.

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Hey so I'm not going to go into specific points there since there's a lot of back and forth to wrestle with, but I'd like to look at this part specifically.

XIV has very very low button bloat- I'd go further and say we actually learn too FEW skills. 30, give or take a few, is basically nothing both on a larger scale comparing it to other mmos and on a smaller scale of comparing XIV to... other Final Fantasy games. What that actually means is that every single skill we get is kind of a big deal. There is absolutely substance in the argument that One Ilm or Arm of the Destroyer should be more useful- along with most other classes with "useless" skills or traits; if it's useless it means it's taking up one of our very limited slots for a skill that COULD have been useful. There's no room for excessively situational skills in our current setup.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

It's a contradiction that people aren't able to decide that they dislike the WAR changes but people are able to tell me "the class is fine." So you've had enough time to determine WAR is fine and I'm "over exaggerating" but we haven't had enough time to determine WAR isn't fun or useful?

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This is not a contradiction. It is different people having different opinions.

Basic English. Learn it.

Not commenting about other points, yet. Just don't let your own words weaken your own argument like that...

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Originally Posted by Makeda

This is not a contradiction. It is different people having different opinions.

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The contradiction they're referring to is how some people are telling them that it hasn't been long enough yet to determine if WAR isn't fun or useful. Yet despite that at the same time it's somehow been long enough for those very same people to tell them that WAR is fine. I mean if those people want to claim it's currently fine then they shouldn't be making shitty contradictory arguments about how it supposedly hasn't been long enough yet to determine that it's not fine.

Also, just to further clarify since you misunderstood their intentions. They didn't seem to be directing their statements towards people who simply just have a different opinion. It seems they were directing it at the people who like to claim it's fine but at the same time dismiss their opinions about it not being fine by saying it hasn't been long enough yet.

Well put OP well put indeed.
I still love WAR, it is still my favorite job, but oh how I hate what SE have done to the job.
And ya, I remember what people said after the media tour when we first got to read the skill text "The build was 1mnt old!", okay and then the man himself Yoshi said "We are still working on changes and will until the release", still okay but then came SB and nothing, not a damn thing had changed and people said "get to max level"... well I did not need to get to max level to understand that Shake it off was useless, neither did I need that max level to understand that Onslaught was worse then the gap closer that DRK have (not saying they should touch that one but it is the only skill from another tank that we can compare ours with, and in comparison ours is kinda shit).
This mess is one that could have been avoided but SE chose to not avoid, instead of driving around the mountain of complains they chose to crash into it full speed. My reason for saying this is all the posts prior to SB that said that the cost of changing stance would make the class clunky, that Onslaught needed its cost removed and also that Shake it off was a useless skill, and well guess what, those things are still here just like during the media tour and they are just as clunky, overpriced and useless as people said... kinda makes me think Yoshi refused to change them out of spit because I see no other good reason for at least one of our new skills to even existing.
Oh and if anyone that get a chance to ask Yoshi questions should happen to read this please ask him this "What was the reasoning behind implementing Shake it off as it was at the launch of SB?".

I agree with OP, got my 3 tanks to lvl 70, i just never use my warrior, i have like no reason, i always switch to Paladin or Drk

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Originally Posted by Makeda

This is not a contradiction. It is different people having different opinions.

Basic English. Learn it.

Not commenting about other points, yet. Just don't let your own words weaken your own argument like that...

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Consider the warrant for a moment. The logic was that the class had not yet been playable at deep enough a level for people to dislike the changes to Warrior with a full understanding of said changes (i.e. to have a "fair" opinion). Why then would someone be perfectly able to like said changes under the exact same circumstance? It's the same warrant, yet it is used to deny the first and confirm the second, even when it would state that each is equally impossible?

Did you just see a single neglected comma or modal inflection and thereby neglect to read the sentences for their entire meaning? It was perfectly understandable.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

XIV has very very low button bloat- I'd go further and say we actually learn too FEW skills. 30, give or take a few, is basically nothing both on a larger scale comparing it to other mmos...

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You may like having 60 skill, however regularly or irregularly they may be used. That chalks up squarely to personal preference. But "very, very low" button bloat? Are we playing the same game? How can you say there's very little bloat and then point out examples of (two among the more used) situational tools as a problem. (Granted, that seems more an argument of arsenal than of button count.) What then of single actions that occur in multiple steps, keys, or button presses with zero additional availability of control? What of actions that are entirely negligible? What of actions that are precisely rotational (and thereby have no more control or nuance than a per-interval passive activation or acquisition)? Bloating is inefficiency of gameplay in terms of the key slots necessary to action it. While at a point a bloated arsenal may make controlling one's character deeply and interestingly is made unnecessarily complicated, to a negative effect upon gameplay, button bloat itself would include what you've referred to already, would it not? These are actions that do not warrant their space as well as they could or should. But in regards of hotbar space, these, while significant, are lesser culprits than simply, say, linear combos (e.g. Dragoon's) and those slots that ought to be consolidated in the same way as Fell Cleave and Inner Beast. In terms of that actual space, XIV remains quite bloated. The arsenal can and will expand. How it is actioned, however, could be a whole lot more tightly done.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Also SE made the class dumber to play. Any skill ceiling it used to have is now gone.

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While I agree WAR needs adjustments, I really don't think the job has no skill ceiling and is dumb to play.
It's really on the contrary more complex to play with your decision making shifted to gauge management and planned stance switch.
I actually really enjoy the gauge management aspect and the fact that your make up your rotation as you go depending on your gauge build up. Thing is, that aspect only truly reveals itself if you fully make use of the Infuriate trait and don't just sit on it for berserk windows.
WAR is more complex than it used to be but we get no reward from it...

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

This is an important point that doesn't seem to get brought up much. That is legitimately what Warriors identity is- or at least supposed to be. The IDEA is that our defensive capability is supposed to be tied directly to ouroffensive capability- which is why we had heavy lifesteal originally, and why IB is an offensive move, and... Bloodbath and... Everything. 3.0 moved away from this a little with deliverance, but the flowing nature of dancing meant that it was effectively the same. Given that warriors kit is built around having high HP instead of direct mitigation, the heals always were effectively the warrior equivalent of dark mind and other weaker but class specific CDs. You literally can not have a warrior not be overall poorly designed while actively removing the core concepts of its design and identity in the first place- hybridization of offense and defense. The self heals and stance dancing and high risk(relatively) high reward gameplay are absolutely essential, once you remove that it's just an entirely new class that we didn't sign up for.

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This is a crucial concept because literally every single move that healed WAR except for equilibrium came from doing damage.

Bloodbath, Inner Beast, Storms Path were all self heals that rely on doing damage. Literally more then half the skills in our job are damage oriented and LOCKED in the dps stance. We have 14 job skills, 10 that are dependent on being in a particular stance, AND 9 OF THEM DO DAMAGE.

Our level 70 ability literally IS our raid utility move and it's dps stance only and is a move that ONLY EXISTS TO INFLICT DAMAGE.

They took away all of that in SB. It makes absolutely no sense. Listen to the description of the class and its skills. It's all about that fantasy of being this unstoppable force of destruction in the middle of a battle TAKING ON numerous foes and walking out with nary a scratch. That berserk concept doesn't even exist anymore. Everything you do now, is so slow and clunky. Even the amazing "six fell cleaves!" that people try to hype up to justify "WAR being perfectly fine!" takes so much damn time to set up.

Okay, WAR was OP in HW. Let's just, to keep things simple go with that statement. When you nerf something, taking away every single aspect that made it good doesn't leave you with a balanced or fun class. It leaves you with a bad one. And the absolute worst part is again, they nerfed all our utility and couldn't even keep the class fun AT THE VERY LEAST.

Six fell cleaves and it's not anywhere near as exciting as being able to fit in that fracture at the end of a berserk rotation in HW.

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Originally Posted by Vallamaria

Since it doesn't take a genius to realize that making one single Tank excel at literally everything with no downsides and making the other 2 Tanks so outright inferior is a bad idea.

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Which is why I supported and still support the changes PLD got in HW. Because everyone deserves a class that people find fun and to be useful.


Though the way some of them act now, especially the ones that downplay any issues with DRK and WAR simply because they fear being nerfed, I sometimes regret supporting them.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

This is not a contradiction. It is different people having different opinions.

Basic English. Learn it.

Not commenting about other points, yet. Just don't let your own words weaken your own argument like that...

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Originally Posted by Vallamaria

The contradiction they're referring to is how some people are telling them that it hasn't been long enough yet to determine if WAR isn't fun or useful. Yet despite that at the same time it's somehow been long enough for those very same people to tell them that WAR is fine. I mean if those people want to claim it's currently fine then they shouldn't be making shitty contradictory arguments about how it supposedly hasn't been long enough yet to determine that it's not fine.

Also, just to further clarify since you misunderstood their intentions. They didn't seem to be directing their statements towards people who simply just have a different opinion. It seems they were directing it at the people who like to claim it's fine but at the same time dismiss their opinions about it not being fine by saying it hasn't been long enough yet.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Consider the warrant for a moment. The logic was that the class had not yet been playable at deep enough a level for people to dislike the changes to Warrior with a full understanding of said changes (i.e. to have a "fair" opinion). Why then would someone be perfectly able to like said changes under the exact same circumstance? It's the same warrant, yet it is used to deny the first and confirm the second, even when it would state that each is equally impossible?

Did you just see a single neglected comma or modal inflection and thereby neglect to read the sentences for their entire meaning? It was perfectly understandable.

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Owned. (also lol at them not responding)

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Also SE made the class dumber to play. Any skill ceiling it used to have is now gone.

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Uh I don't believer your playing the Cass you think Im am now covinced you think your playing war but are actually on drk cause war got way way insanely more complex. Like the skill ceiling is retardely high, more so than the majority of dps jobs. By far the most complex tank we have EVER had. You are constantly watching gauge trying to plan 5 gcds ahead to make sure you don't cap and spend bg in the best way while watching your eye and deciding which almost your gonna need. You alternate between shit zero and super zero and timing has to be perfect or your rotation is thrown into limbo. The opener is. Aries you need three and alternates of those three for comp and mechanical timing. Lost a berserk window cause of mechs? Grats, your ast is out dpsing you.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Uh I don't believer your playing the Cass you think Im am now covinced you think your playing war but are actually on drk cause war got way wayinsanely more complex. Like the skill ceiling is retardely high, more so than the majority of dps jobs. By far the most complex tank we have EVER had. You are constantly watching gauge trying to plan 5 gcds ahead to make sure you don't cap and spend bg in the best way while watching your eye and deciding which almost your gonna need. You alternate between shit zero and super zero and timing has to be perfect or your rotation is thrown into limbo. The opener is. Aries you need three and alternates of those three for comp and mechanical timing. Lost a berserk window cause of mechs? Grats, your ast is out dpsing you.

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I think I get what they are getting at. The class is simplified simply by nature of you spamming storms path so much. Anyone can use eye then spam path and use FC or IB.

However the actual skill ceiling to perform anywhere near the level of PLD is quite high for either equal or less gain.

So for people who don't take into account what you mentioned, the class is simpler. For us though who could do three combos, three FC's, and a fracture/brutal swing in one berserk, who could tank in deliverance the class is more complicated for zero gain.

So in a nutshell, you're both right but for slightly different reasons.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I think I get what they are getting at. The class is simplified simply by nature of you spamming storms path so much. Anyone can use eye then spam path and use FC or IB.

However the actual skill ceiling to perform anywhere near the level of PLD is quite high for either equal or less gain.

So for people who don't take into account what you mentioned, the class is simpler. For us though who could do three combos, three FC's, and a fracture/brutal swing in one berserk, who could tank in deliverance the class is more complicated for zero gain.

So in a nutshell, you're both right but for slightly different reasons.

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Didn't think about it that way but your right, if your not actually trying to to push your dps maybe it is simple.

As a fellow WAR main, thank you for airing these grievances!

I almost completely agree with you, with my one exception being Onslaught.

After playing WAR 70 for some time, my only beef with Onslaught is that I can't use it to enter combat (inability to pull with Tomawhawk -> Onslaught -> Equilibrium). IMO, the potency is fine, the recast is fine, and the gauge cost is bearable.

At its core, I agree that the WAR changes revolve around an identity crisis.

Many of us WAR mains largely predicted this issue after the media tour preview:

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Originally Posted by mcspamm

The Ugly

Loss of Identity
The biggest problem I have with WAR moving into Stormblood is the lack of a unique identity.

The battle system changes have shoehorned WAR into a Fell Cleave / Decimate bot that brings nothing unique to parties anymore.

While I'm glad that Storm's Path was changed and that SAM and NIN can each easily apply their own slashing buffs now, these changes in conjunction with the battle system rework leave WAR in an awkward position.

PLD and DRK are each getting their own high damage burst abilities (Requiescat with Holy Spirit for PLD, Bloodspiller and Quietus for DRK - although the latter look like they could use some help), so while WAR will be able to land six Fell Cleaves or Decimates, our burst is no longer a unique selling point outside of AoE situations.

Furthermore, many of WAR's new abilities are largely muddled clones of existing abilities. Onslaught is a confused version of Plunge. Upheaval is a copy-paste of Spirits Within. Shake It Off is a better version of Tempered Will, a very situational PLD cooldown.

Finally, with the changes to Path and Eye, and the addition of Intervention for PLD and The Blackest Night for DRK, WAR no longer offers any unique utility to groups that other jobs don't already have access to. When coupled with the loss of Bloodbath and penalties to stance dancing, the only thing WAR seems to have going for it compared with the other tanks is higher AoE burst damage.

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Thankfully, Upheaval is much better than I initially gave it credit (the English wording was ambiguous), but outside of that, I'm disappointed that nothing else was changed before the final release. :/

The theory that SB WAR wasn't finished in time would explain a lot.

I'm hoping for some proper damage and QoL boosts to WAR and DRK in 4.05 - there's still time to remedy these wrongs (Please leave Paladin alone!).

I said the same thing about pre-SB release WAR but people absolutely raged on me. I ended up deleting my thread about it because the discussion was so toxic and personal =/

If they would just replace unchained with warriors own form of bloodbath... I could be mostly satisfied with the class aside from the beastgauge loss switching (still think it should be a 10-20 flat rate not half). Unchained just isn't nearly as useful as the DPS variant for deliverance, it just doesn't fit in with defiance.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I think I get what they are getting at. The class is simplified simply by nature of you spamming storms path so much. Anyone can use eye then spam path and use FC or IB.

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I don't really think eye-path-path is any more 'difficult' a rotation than eye-block or eye-eye was. The difficulty of the class is (and always was) about maximizing your burst windows, something which is much harder now because it requires making sure you're hitting 100 beast without wasting any precisely as berserk comes off CD, plus handling the bizarre timing of infuriate now.

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Originally Posted by testname

I could not write it better, good job in making this thread.

I played as war in HW, and I agree 100% with you.

Normally I never voice up my thoughts, but I am so so utterly disappointed.
I mean, do they not play their own game?
The whole experience in game play as war, changed.

How is it even possible.....

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Originally Posted by Dauntess

I'm pretty quiet too, but I was so disappointed in SB that I had to come on here and voice my disappointment.

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Thanks for speaking up guys. SE needs to know that it's not fun to play the class in its current state. Far too cumbersome and penalties on changing stances make it less rewarding and more annoying to play. Let's not have a repeat of war 2.0 in 4.0 please. We are already at a point where utility far outweighs tank dps since tank dps is roughly equal atm and war has no utility guess what happens?

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Originally Posted by jazzcatte

I don't really think eye-path-path is any more 'difficult' a rotation than eye-block or eye-eye was. The difficulty of the class is (and always was) about maximizing your burst windows, something which is much harder now because it requires making sure you're hitting 100 beast without wasting any precisely as berserk comes off CD, plus handling the bizarre timing of infuriate now.

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Difference is with HW using BB, SP, or SE in a optimal way was harder to learn then using path till eye hits 9 seconds and occasionally fitting in BB when you think you might lose aggro.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Difference is with HW using BB, SP, or SE in a optimal way was harder to learn then using path till eye hits 9 seconds and occasionally fitting in BB when you think you might lose aggro.

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I really dont tbink thats the case. Outside of prog or intense incoming damage you weren't using path. And 99% of the time if you used block you were fucking up. It was seriously just eye spam. 3.x war was probably the easiest class i ever played.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Difference is with HW using BB, SP, or SE in a optimal way was harder to learn then using path till eye hits 9 seconds and occasionally fitting in BB when you think you might lose aggro.

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Eye spam, occasionally BB if you're sure you won't rip aggro, and time your Berserk windows for at least 3 FC's, which was possible at all skill speeds. Fracture was by and large a dps loss to use outside of Berserk except in super niche situations, and Path was mostly ignored except for rare cases of both raid wide AoE and using Path meant saving healer GCD's.

4.X WAR is a lot more engaging. The above is why I quit WAR in 3.X, due to both being god tier and being deceptively easy to optimize.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

I really dont tbink thats the case. Outside of prog or intense incoming damage you weren't using path. And 99% of the time if you used block you were fucking up. It was seriously just eye spam. 3.x war was probably the easiest class i ever played.

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Sorry I was thinking end game content when I posted that. (it's why I said optimal) and I'm going to disagree simply because dps between good and bad was night and day and because I saw lots of people struggling with it.

I mean, I could be wrong but that's my experience. As a matter of fact, judging by your other posts you were probably better at WAR then I ever was so I'd even wager and say you probably are. But as I said, what I said earlier was simply from what I personally saw.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

4.X WAR is a lot more engaging.

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I find the only people to really say that are the ones who hated WAR in HW for whatever reason. Meanwhile active WAR players generally dislike it and not just because it's not the best tank either.

If they could make 4.0 pve war more like 4.0 pvp war I'd be happy.

Why?

Onslaught has group utility because of its knockback. And tomahawk slows do I don't really need onslaught as a gap closer. So the Rage Cost there is not as big a deal.

I can self heal while in deliverance with recuperate.

No stance swap penalty means I can build rage while in defiance and swap to deliverance and immediately fc spam. Feels great. This is the greatest thing.

No useless abilities like shake it off.

No nearly useless combos like with BB in pve. BB in pvp increases damage by EVERYONE.

No infuriate which limits fc spam to 4 or so. Anything over 4 is taking too long anyhow.

In short, more self sustain with recuperate, better flow cuz no stance swap penalty , AND great party utility with Butcher's Block.

I wish pvp war could be pve war.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I find the only people to really say that are the ones who hated WAR in HW for whatever reason. Meanwhile active WAR players generally dislike it and not just because it's not the best tank either.

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I hated playing warrior in HW only because all I was required to do was wear str and dps. Like, can't I just bring my dragoon? Lol

Similar to Thunda Cat, I feel like I'm one of the few actually enjoying 4.0 Warrior. I do think some of the mechanics could use a little tweaking, but despite the wonkiness I'm having more fun playing it now than I've ever had before.

Yeah, war/drk got pretty screwed. I hope it doesn't take 2 years for you all to get some fixes in.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I hated playing warrior in HW only because all I was required to do was wear str and dps. Like, can't I just bring my dragoon? Lol

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You weren't required to do anything. And everyone dps's, even in tank stance.

I think some people forget that not everyone chose WAR because it was meta. I didn't.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

You weren't required to do anything. And everyone dps's, even in tank stance.

I think some people forget that not everyone chose WAR because it was meta. I didn't.

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Neither did I. And I think people forget that raiding isn't the whole game. Hunts are one of my favorite activities, and having no access to self healing really curbed my enjoyment of hunts.

It's so dumb that I have to swap to tank stance solely for heals when fighting a hunt boss.

Make equilibrium heal in deliverance. I can't remember the last time I needed the tp.

And while other tanks get defensive lvl 70 abilities which adds party utility, we get a dps ability the enjoyment of which is mangled by the stupid tank swap penalty.

If we ain't gonna bring nothing, at least make our dps superior.

Not to mention it makes another ability, unchained worthless.

I'm okay with them effectively replacing unchained with inner release IF they had made using it easier by getting rid of the stance swap penalty and doing something about the infuriate trait to make it easier to line up infuriate, berserk and inner release.

It just feels overly complicated with so many cooldowns and on top of that the rage cost for swapping and random stun and knockback mechanics bypassing inner release really, really kills it for me.

Tldr, the ramp up to the ability takes too long, is too complicated to maximize usage, and the use is unreliable when mechanics can easily throw timing off.

I was fighting agodo or whatever hunt boss the other day, and I was so upset when it's stupid tail attack knockback and stun bypassed inner release and stuffed up my combo.

And guess what? Shake it off didn't cleanse the stun. LOL ... so dumb : (