#DeleteSmn aka "Here's where you can shove your Bahamut" thread

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

Akh Morn....oh you mean a Blm's foul just renamed that we have to jump through hoops for..

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Play BLM then if you think it's so much harder to play SMN???

first off those are level 70 mp costs which makes sense they are higher
and why do you think you can only use bahamut every second time? You get dreadwyrm aether every time you leave dreadwyrm trance and the spell itself is only 30s cooldown
seems like it would line up with aetherflow and you'd get a lot of shockwaves between ruin and fester and the ahk morne

I would assume they did some testing to make sure it falls in line. It seems every class got it's AoE neutered except for samurai and paladin actually got some aoe added

I think people fail to realize that they don't just remove things without rebalancing around the things they removed.

Honestly although there will be a few changes, I'm actually looking forward to continue maining SMN. Everyone is always banging on that the role is gonna be dead, and it's rekt etc, but it's one of those things where you actually need to wait for it to go live and give it time before declaring stuff is wrong. It's not just SMN though but all the classes will need time for players to adjust and eventually decide if it works for them or not. All the players saying they will main SAM or RDM don't have an actual feel yet on how they'll like them, it's just basing favourites on videos/shots and other info etc. It's like buying a car before even trying out but just going on reviews.

I'm going to stay optimistic​ for SMN and see how things pan out. After all, it's not unusual for jobs to get buffs/fixes in later patches.

I think we needed a nerf honestly.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

I would assume they did some testing to make sure it falls in line. It seems every class got it's AoE neutered except for samurai and paladin actually got some aoe added

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Thunder says hi, the AK Tree, and Turn 5 does as well. Also Pepsiman says 'Oh Yeah!' as well, in terms of something more recent.

Also the last few dozen times they have tested things, players have shown to have bettered and even surpassed their testing expectations, and broke/burnt things in ways they least could have expected, even went as far as to mention that in a couple of live letters too. So I have the honest to goodness feeling this will be no different.

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Originally Posted by Texa

I think we needed a nerf honestly.

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Care to elaborate?

Potency changed, but damage dealt and received were also adjusted

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

3 - Bane: one of our Aetherflow abilities used for AoE damage nerfed heavily. It used to be 100% damage on the first 3 enemies and 50% damage on the 4th and beyond. Now this ability is 100% for the first enemy, 80% for the second, 60% third, 40% fourth, and only 20% for the 5th and beyond. So, based on 3 enemies, this is a 20% nerf and beyond 3 enemies it gets to be a much higher percentage nerf per enemy added.

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That's sad, should we talk about BLM's flare some patches ago

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

While I do plan on reserving final judgment for after I've played the job at 70 for a bit, this has me fuming. I'm hoping it's not as bad as it appears, but this doesn't bode well at all. There's always other jobs, I guess.

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My thoughts exactly. I will see how it is, but from the info available things seem bad. I'm especially not fond of the RNG apect, nor the change to Shadowflare; the switching and swapping of Bio, Miasma and so on seems kind of pointless to me, too - replace one after removing another and slap on some upgrade move (which upgrades Bio to a worse version, supposedly)... I don't know, but I'm not keen on it; some of it comes off as remixing instead of updating and expanding the class.

Seriously though, that Shadowflare nerf can get lost, especially with how gimped the other stuff seems to have become -- in favour of having a Bahamut summon? Meh.

Might go back to BLM if it sucks as much as it seems on paper.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

You have to understand about some stuff. Which was questioned during HW's. They do not want you pulling more then 3 mobs and aoeing them down. They don't come out and say it. But they keep nerfing any aoe damage and putting gates up. If people wouldn't feel the need for speed. BLM and WHM wouldn't have been nerfed at the end of 2.0.

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The issue becomes if dungeons remain faceroll but we simply take forever and a day to kill things. People will just stop doing them entirely. The tail end of Heavensward saw multiple ways to cap Scripture. And let's be honest, 450 a week is incredibly easy even if you barely run Roulettes. Hopefully, dungeons will actually pose a challenge, and that is the reason we pull less.

First thing I'm doing is taking fester off my bar. Painflare does the same damage with both dots up in an aoe without fall off. SO there goes bane to. Just gonna hardcast.

I read all the tooltips and came to a completely different conclusion, SMN seems pretty strong for single target now, with just a small nerf to AoE.

Also SMN interacts better with party buffs than BLM, SB BLM is basically the same thing as HW BLM with a few more F4s.

ruin 1 and 2 buffed, ruin 3 nerfed, but tri disaster buffs all ruins so the nerf is minimal, and you can proc ruin 4.

Tri disaster always up for DWT

Both dots buffed

AoE party damage buff

Bahamut-egi with an auto a bit stronger than ruin 3 and a shorter cd enkindle

Shorter enkindle cd every time you proc ruin 4.

I really don't see this as a big nerf.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I read all the tooltips and came to a completely different conclusion, SMN seems pretty strong for single target now, with just a small nerf to AoE.

Also SMN interacts better with party buffs than BLM, SB BLM is basically the same thing as HW BLM with a few more F4s.

ruin 1 and 2 buffed, ruin 3 nerfed, but tri disaster buffs all ruins so the nerf is minimal, and you can proc ruin 4.

Tri disaster always up for DWT

Both dots buffed

AoE party damage buff

Bahamut-egi with an auto a bit stronger than ruin 3 and a shorter cd enkindle

Shorter enkindle cd every time you proc ruin 4.

I really don't see this as a big nerf.

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If we wanted a single target caster we'd just go play black mage. Summoner was more of an aoe job(especially in HW since they buffed bane). I thought they were just going to declutter jobs, not try to homogenize them all into the same thing.

So first a clarification on one of the changes;

- Spur is being removed, BUT the same pet damage increase of up to 40% is now being applied to the trait Maim and Mend. In other words it becomes a permanent buff to pets. I think every single person overlooked it in their panicking.

My 2nd point and the only thing I'm bothered about, why keep calling it tri-disaster if it only applies 2 dots =.= They could have given us a completely new dot at least...

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

First thing I'm doing is taking fester off my bar. Painflare does the same damage with both dots up in an aoe without fall off. SO there goes bane to. Just gonna hardcast.

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The potency on Fester's tooltip is most likely just a typo because on the videos posted it's doing significantly more damage than Painflare. Unless they change the actual damage to reflect what is on the tooltip (hopefully not). If that happens then I will gladly do the same.

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Originally Posted by Ash_

My 2nd point and the only thing I'm bothered about, why keep calling it tri-disaster if it only applies 2 dots =.= They could have given us a completely new dot at least...

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Tri-disaster applies a third 15s debuff called Ruination.

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Originally Posted by Ash_

So first a clarification on one of the changes;

- Spur is being removed, BUT the same pet damage increase of up to 40% is now being applied to the trait Maim and Mend. In other words it becomes a permanent buff to pets. I think every single person overlooked it in their panicking.

My 2nd point and the only thing I'm bothered about, why keep calling it tri-disaster if it only applies 2 dots =.= They could have given us a completely new dot at least...

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Maim and mend 2 already applies to pets

Also, I forgot to add something. As per videos and Japanese translation.....Aetherflow now only gives us 10% mp and not 20% like it used to.

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

I would agree if Smn were a top dps job to begin with in the first place. As it is now, we aren't even considered as a viable option for the raid meta outside of 1-2 fights max

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That is if you play with bad players. I have cleared every Alexander raid easily on my summoner, and was usually top DPS in all the fights.

That "meta" stuff is a joke, tbh. Find better people to play with :x

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I read all the tooltips and came to a completely different conclusion, SMN seems pretty strong for single target now, with just a small nerf to AoE.

Also SMN interacts better with party buffs than BLM, SB BLM is basically the same thing as HW BLM with a few more F4s.

ruin 1 and 2 buffed, ruin 3 nerfed, but tri disaster buffs all ruins so the nerf is minimal, and you can proc ruin 4.

Tri disaster always up for DWT

Both dots buffed

AoE party damage buff

Bahamut-egi with an auto a bit stronger than ruin 3 and a shorter cd enkindle

Shorter enkindle cd every time you proc ruin 4.

I really don\\'t see this as a big nerf.

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Ruin 1 is the same potency and Ruin IV is now the damage our Ruin III used to be. Still a nerf.

2 dots were buffed to 40 potency per or 80 potency per tic. Compare that to our 3 dots doing 110 potency per tic. Still a nerf

The other points you are right about but not enough to make up for our losses.

Unless you main a Smn you have no idea what you are talking about, this consolidation of nearly everything is a dramatic dps loss in all situations for the sake of "dumbing down".

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

Ruin 1 is the same potency and Ruin IV is now the damage our Ruin III used to be. Still a nerf.

2 dots were buffed to 40 potency per or 80 potency per tic. Compare that to our 3 dots doing 110 potency per tic. Still a nerf

The other points you are right about but not enough to make up for our losses.

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3.0 RUINS
Ruin = 80 potency
Ruin II = 80 potency
Ruin III = 200 potency

4.0 RUINS
Ruin = 10080 potency
Ruin II = 100 potency
Ruin III = 150 potency
Ruin IV = 200(220) potency

3.0 DOTS
Bio II = 350 potency
Miasma = 300 potency
Bio = 240 potency
Total = 890 potency

4.0 DOTS
Bio III = 400 potency
Miasma III = 450 potency
Total = 850 potency

But then there's this:

3.0 TRAITS
Int +2
Int +4
Dmg +10%
Int +6
Dmg +30%
Total Int = 12

4.0 TRAITS
Int +8
Dmg/PetDmg +10%
Int +16
Dmg/PetDmg +30%
Int +24
Total Int = 48

20 potency from Ruin III went to Ruin/Ruin II and the remaining 30 potency might have went to the added Int trait. It's probably the same for the DoT potencies. Need someone who is well versed with the stat weights to know if the added Int is enough to compensate for the lower potencies.

EDIT: Actually never mind the 100 potency Ruin, different sources have different numbers or I might have confused Ruin II's new potency with Ruin's. Also, take note that the 40% pet damage buff of Spur will become permanent through traits.

In no serious opener would you ever use Aetherflow inside Dreadwyrm Trance, so that change is meaningless. (You wouldn't use it inside DT outside of your opener anyways)

Otherwise, I sorta agree with your points.

Does anyone else find it ridiculous that we're having to debate whether a job at 70, ability-wise, is LESS POTENT than the current job at 60 is? All things considered, 10 levels should result in a clear-cut power boost. SE should never have engineered a situation in which a job at 60 is worsened upon release of 4.0. Period. That should have been Priority Number One.

Instead, we've got SMN, WHM, and possibly others, who are suffering clear-cut nerfs upon the release of 4.0, and are arguably just getting back to an equivalent ability strength by level 70. That's f*cking absurd, unnecessary, and bad game design. All we should have been talking about was whether the new post-60 abilities added roughly equivalent bonuses across all jobs.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

To be honest I think with both Whm and Smn we should wait and see how the jobs come out. It's still too early to go grab our pitchforks and torches on something only a few people actually got their hands on.

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Ya, the more I look into it, the more I see certain jobs are given different responsibilities compared to others. The reality is you are no longer Master of your max potential DPS, a lot of jobs now have NIN level of manipulation when it comes to enhancing DPS. A NIN can target a single enemy and increase dmg they take for 10 seconds, other jobs like MNK/DRG/SMN/BRD/ have the potential to augment those around them based on certain abilities they have access to. MCH/BLM/SAM appear to be heavy focused on DPS but I may have missed AOE buffs they can provide to other party members but their abilities seem pretty self contained.

Overall they come off as interesting changes because the synergy between jobs definitely has a lot of room to experiment with to figure out which jobs work best with one another, which job should I give X buff to, how should SMN or BRD time their AOE buffs for the party etc etc.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

First thing I'm doing is taking fester off my bar. Painflare does the same damage with both dots up in an aoe without fall off. SO there goes bane to. Just gonna hardcast.

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What do you do when you want to get into DWT within 20s or faster and not within thirty, when because of a downtime or preparation Aetherflow is back again with you having already 3 stacks? Delaying Aetherflow use by even only 1s is a no-go, because its literally the strongest Cooldown in the whole game (because >thousand potency are gated behind it).

Blasting your stacks now got buffed in relation.
I.e. the opener and some downtimes, esp. add phases followed by almost 30s transistion after that. Gunna keep that AF on CD.

While now I need 20s to do the max. pot of 900 pot, this will go down to 10s for 600 pot. But today if you blast your stacks in 1-2 GcDs you lose almost 40% of the max. 900, while in SB you gonna lose only 10% for going "gonna blast my stacks".

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

What do you do when you want to get into DWT within 20s or faster and not within thirty, when because of a downtime or preparation Aetherflow is back again with you having already 3 stacks? Delaying Aetherflow use by even only 1s is a no-go, because its literally the strongest Cooldown in the whole game (because thousands of potency are gated behind it).

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I believe Painflare is buffed to have a 5s CD. So the Lv60 opener can simply be changed from 2p/1f or 1/1/1 to 3p now if so desired.

However,

1. Multiple people have reported that the Fester tooltip seemed erroneous given that we have seen Fester doing much more damage in videos.

2. The Lv70 opener would likely require you to enter Summon Bahamut to catch party buffs ASAP, so you'd want to enter Dreadwyrm Trances even faster than what you do at Lv60, meaning even with a 5s Painflare CD it's still not enough (so you'll have to use 2p/1f anyways).

Not sure if Fester CD is reduced too.

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Originally Posted by Skyrior

Not sure if Fester CD is reduced too.

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It's down to 5s too.

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Originally Posted by Nerisu

It's down to 5s too.

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That's pretty interesting, with that change there could be openers that attempt to do 3p/3f (for 2 dreadwyrms) to get into Summon Bahamut within 18~22s-ish. Gonna have to play with the game live to see how it plays out.

Also not sure if it's worth getting into Summon Bahamut early to catch party buffs at the expense of aborting DTs with Deathflares early.

Dear Mods. Can we just get rid of any thread that says "delete 'x' job" please? Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Does anyone else find it ridiculous that we're having to debate whether a job at 70, ability-wise, is LESS POTENT than the current job at 60 is? All things considered, 10 levels should result in a clear-cut power boost. SE should never have engineered a situation in which a job at 60 is worsened upon release of 4.0. Period. That should have been Priority Number One.

Instead, we've got SMN, WHM, and possibly others, who are suffering clear-cut nerfs upon the release of 4.0, and are arguably just getting back to an equivalent ability strength by level 70. That's f*cking absurd, unnecessary, and bad game design.

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I take it you must be new to MMO's? Because i've seen this in every game i've played, and that's a lot.
Now I'm not saying its right, wrong or even indifferent to them doing this, but merely pointing out that as games mature, devs will squish stats and skills from time to time as part of long term planning.

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Originally Posted by Nerisu

4.0 TRAITS
Int +8
Dmg/PetDmg +10%
Int +16
Dmg/PetDmg +30%
Int +24
Total Int = 48


EDIT: Actually never mind the 100 potency Ruin, different sources have different numbers or I might have confused Ruin II\\'s new potency with Ruin\\'s. Also, take note that the 40% pet damage buff of Spur will become permanent through traits.

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Actually the trait you\re talking about (maim and mend 2) ALREADY buffs the pet. This isn't an added buff in 4.0

I still have the impression that if I go in an Alexander savage fight at level 70 with level 60 equip (even with the nerf for my offstat scaling if I'd do that with this 'too low for my level' gear.. 2.4s GCD and 15% crit? QQ)... we gonna have more dps.

With ruin buff of Tridisaster+DWT+Bahamut we look at 300ish pot GCDs. Wih all those party buffs out there, oh bby ×.×
Tridisaster is now way more often available, which means instead of 5-6 dot casts per minute (After Trisaster+Contagion you gonna refresh every DoT once and Bio even twice+2 times Shadowflare) you gonna use... 1-2 and sometimes even less (because at best 2 Tridisaster per minute with 30s DoT time each). So it's already 4-6 ruins more per minute now.
With the mpdrain GCD we can get mp for additional R3 with no dps loss at certain points in a fight (Whenever you'd gonna cast an unbuffed ruin1).

I'm sorry if that ruins your theory.

And I'm sorry for that pun.

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Originally Posted by KarahaBaruha

Actually the trait you\re talking about (maim and mend 2) ALREADY buffs the pet. This isn't an added buff in 4.0

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Oh, you're right. I should have used the in-game tooltips instead of going to consolegameswiki and gamer escape.

EDIT: And it looks like this is where the extra Int from traits came from, not to compensate for the lower potencies.

Oh, well. I tried looking for any sort of compensation for the lower potencies but it looks like it really is just a nerf.

can you guys ever think of a time a class was changed just because of some pre-expansion whining? because i cant lol.

you dont even have early access yet <_______< did you ever stop to think that maybe your class might be being balanced for play @ 70? put on a new pair of skivvies and put the ones you got on in the wash so you can get those skid marks out.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

can you guys ever think of a time a class was changed just because of some pre-expansion whining? because i cant lol.

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They are actually still tweaking the numbers so all the info we have now are not final. The devs may not respond a lot but they do read all the "whining" and based most of the changes on that.

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Originally Posted by Ralts

I'm ok with the changes lol. They're minor compared to whm's 20% rng procs

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What are you talking about. White mages get STRONGER. Not to your liking, but they get stronger in the expansion. Summoners and Scholars get WEAKER. They are nerfed. How can you even begin to think that getting stronger is worse than getting nerfed?!

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Originally Posted by kikix12

What are you talking about. White mages get STRONGER. Not to your liking, but they get stronger in the expansion. Summoners and Scholars get WEAKER. They are nerfed. How can you even begin to think that getting stronger is worse than getting nerfed?!

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good for you. so, how was it like playing 4.0's summoner; using it rotation or 2? i'm guessing you were invited to try them out hands-on?
and i guess using 2 demi-bahamut akh morn + constant deathlares for aoe aren't enough, you just saw lower potency values and you're already whining. if you're just gonna try being know-it-all, atleast do it right.

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Originally Posted by JCharms

I take it you must be new to MMO's? Because i've seen this in every game i've played, and that's a lot.
Now I'm not saying its right, wrong or even indifferent to them doing this, but merely pointing out that as games mature, devs will squish stats and skills from time to time as part of long term planning.

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Examples such as these have little to do with FFXIV as it currently stands.

You're right in that there are a wide variety of reasons why MMO developers might tweak skills, particularly in ways that decrease player power. For example, numbers might have gotten too large as a result of sh*tty and lazy development practices, so everything gets scaled down to manageable levels (including enemies). Or, perhaps, one or two classes are overly powerful, and therefore are brought back down to earth via a patch, rendering them less powerful than before.

Neither of these situations is remotely comparable to the 4.0 rework. SE has not expressed any desire to tone down overall numbers (and, indeed, based on videos, it looks like numbers will only grow larger in 4.0), nor is there any evidence that the community or SE thinks a particular class is overpowered, except perhaps Warrior and Astrologian. Coupled with the fact that there's a convenient level cap boost available to balance jobs via improving weaker ones rather than bringing down stronger ones, and we are left with my original statement: there is NO reason for SE to have weakened a level 60 job with the introduction of 4.0.

To make it even more absurd, even after the boost of 10 levels, we still have grey areas in regards to whether a job is improved. I challenge you to name a single title in which this has been the case. I've never seen a level cap increase associated with a drop in class power - ever (and yes, I've played a lot of games, including a lot of MMOs). In fact, I've never seen a level cap increase associated with even a roughly lateral set of abilities. They always come with clear-cut upgrades, albeit the upgrades often are not created equal across all classes.

I hate the way Square-enix has taken summoner. I like it the way it is now. Why fix something that isn't broken. I main Summoner and have been since arr. Now with these charges I imo don't think summoner is worth playing any more. Thank you Square-enix for ruining my favorite job in this game for me.