Tank Role actions

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Except I thought the whole idea of this 'cross-role' system was to make sure everybody always had the tools they needed to play their role (i.e. no having to level PLD to get Provoke)... however, by putting so many basic skills in there (and limiting it to 5/10 at a time) it pretty much ensures that no-body will ever have all the tools they will situationally need... and I'm not sure about you, but I am no fan of having to swap out skills based on content, which means they’ve either made everything less than savage raids very boring mechanic wise, or there are going to be a lot of 'you need to swap in X skill for this fight' conversations (wasn't the skill barrier supposed to be getting lowered? and now they want casuals to know what skill they need to have equiped for X boss?), and in my book neither is a particularly good outcome.

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1000 times this

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

Except I thought the whole idea of this 'cross-role' system was to make sure everybody always had the tools they needed to play their role (i.e. no having to level PLD to get Provoke)...

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It was a change so that jobs could always have access to the tools no matter what classes were leveled not always have them. I've run into far to many Dark Knight and a fair few Warriors who had not leveled Gladiator to 22 for Provoke when running Mentor roulette. You can not complete Ultima's Bane and several other extreme trials if the other tank can not even equip Provoke. This change is intended to prevent content from being impossible to complete due to failure to level a certain class or not bringing the correct job(s).

It is better for the game if a player can just swap which abilities are active rather than have a party fall apart due to duty finder messing things up.

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however, by putting so many basic skills in there (and limiting it to 5/10 at a time) it pretty much ensures that no-body will ever have all the tools they will situationally need...

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I disagree.

It should be fairly easy for the playerbase and casual players to come up with a "good in general" ability set.

From what we know so far, this looks to be a good set for doing content in general:

• Low blow
• Interject
• Either Provoke or Ultimatum depending on player preference
• Rampart
• Convalescence

Awareness, Reprisal, Anticipation and Shirk will likely be niche enough than most casual players might not see the situations they would be used in. Core players will, on the other hand, run into those situation and then swap the more niche abilities in as needed.

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and I'm not sure about you, but I am no fan of having to swap out skills based on content, which means they’ve either made everything less than savage raids very boring mechanic wise, or there are going to be a lot of 'you need to swap in X skill for this fight' conversations (wasn't the skill barrier supposed to be getting lowered? and now they want casuals to know what skill they need to have equiped for X boss?), and in my book neither is a particularly good outcome.

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I'd argue neither outcome will happen in casual content once a good general set spreads.

Extreme Primals and Savage raids may end up with players having "Who has which skills to handle which mechanics" conversation but those already happen in that level of content. More often than not it requires a job change rather than a skill swap to get the needed abilities right now.

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

however, by putting so many basic skills in there (and limiting it to 5/10 at a time) it pretty much ensures that no-body will ever have all the tools they will situationally need...

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I'm not a fan of swapping on the fly, but I somewhat disagree. Ultimatecalibur provided a good list of skills to take.

This is probably what I'd take for 4mans on Warrior. I dislike that stun is cross role, but it's not required.

Rampart
Convalescence
Reprisal
Provoke
Awareness

I'd swap out Reprisal for Interject if it's needed for a mechanic. Honestly I don't use Conv that much (since it's useless to pop it at the wrong times), so I may take it out sometimes.

Did anyone see Foresight on yoshis WAR hotbar?

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Originally Posted by Baci

Did anyone see Foresight on yoshis WAR hotbar?

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It is getting removed

Unless they make 4 man raid challenging I see no reason to take defensive cross class cds at the expense of any upgrade in dps cds. And this will be the predominant mindset behind all content for core player (what is the least combination of cross class cds do I NEED/WANT to sustain HP/hate...now the rest is for dps)

I heard storm's eye lost it's slashing debuff!? I'd be happy and I hope path does too!! Making reprisal take storm's path role would be nice, esp since reprisal has a CD it will force casuals to pick their timing!!

apparently now the effect of storm eye and maim are switched, maim deal slashing debuff and storm eye give you attack buff since the video shows you got a buff when you use storm eye

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Originally Posted by javid

I heard storm's eye lost it's slashing debuff!? I'd be happy and I hope path does too!! Making reprisal take storm's path role would be nice, esp since reprisal has a CD it will force casuals to pick their timing!!

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

apparently now the effect of storm eye and maim are switched, maim deal slashing debuff and storm eye give you attack buff since the video shows you got a buff when you use storm eye

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Wow! We'll have to see the numbers.... b/c if they switch like exactly switched the two: 10% resistance down and 20% dmg up......we'll never see storm path ever used again!! >< ......rip path...rip

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Originally Posted by javid

Wow! We'll have to see the numbers.... b/c if they switch like exactly switched the two: 10% resistance down and 20% dmg up......we'll never see storm path ever used again!! >< ......rip path...rip

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There's no change here for WAR, maim now gives 10% slashing, storm's eye gives 20% damage up. The change here is for ninja. Their slashing resistance has likely been moved off dancing edge on to their second step so it doesn't matter if a WAR or NIN is applying it.

Storms Path has had its damage down effect removed as reprisal is now a role skill, path is going to have other benefits, likely a high damage combo or generates extra inner beast.

I just saw they are clemency cost half mp now so basicly instead of warrior being the self healing tank ull be better off healing urself as a pali now

If I recall, it generates more Beast stacks. So we've seemingly lost our self healing god-mode from HW, but I'm betting we're still going to be the offensive tank, with PLD being defensive, and DRK being 'alf-'n'-'alf. I'm excited to see how the new mechanics work. There is also an outside chance we've still got Bloodbath, but we've certainly lost Second Wind, Flash, and Internal Release. I am quite happy with glowy eyes, punching people, and penta-cleaving. Here's hoping the numbers make us viable, and it doesn't go all 2.0 on us and unable to survive Twintania.

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Originally Posted by Drudwyn

If I recall, it generates more Beast stacks. So we've seemingly lost our self healing god-mode from HW, but I'm betting we're still going to be the offensive tank, with PLD being defensive, and DRK being 'alf-'n'-'alf. I'm excited to see how the new mechanics work. There is also an outside chance we've still got Bloodbath, but we've certainly lost

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I waas lookin at the live letter to see if the bloodbath icon that was on the melee dps cross role was on warrior but Im not sure. But to me taking bloodbath from warrior will make them the most dependent on heals from healers now. Where as now clemency cost almost as little as say a cure 2 on whm, and its potency is strong, bloodbath was one of the most unique things about warrior to me it fit the class so well.

You cant always depend on equilibrium because most warriors tank in deliverance so you only have access to that heal if your in tank stance so essentially your only self heal at all times on warrior is gonna be thrill of battle I consider this a major nerf and somewhat stripping warrior of its niche, because I did see inner beast still on yosi hot but again that is only in tank stance. So as of now it seems that warrior is really just gona be best in an off tank situation mostly, because the gauges change or drop now when you tank dance on warrior which seems you have to rebuild it up before using say in inner beast.

The Bloodbath icon wasn't there, I couldn't see it either. However, the team did say that not everything was to be shown, so it could still appear. Stance dancing is going to be harder, dropping half your stacks every time you do so, with Beastmode replacing Deliverance/Defiance. We're yet to see how tanking works in SB however, so it may be that MTing in Defiance will be a thing of the past. That's not to say it's going to be impossible, it's just going to be a different way of working. Our mode of play will remain, but our status as One Man Army is likely to change. And I'm fine with that, if it means I still enjoy what I do, and can still lead my casual raider crew as a tank and have fun doing so.

Well, if WAR is the mt, then stay more in tank stance to be a "tank" and not a dps with big hp pool.

TBH, the new role skills selection will differentiate the mt and ot playstyle, WAR will be even more suited to be the ot and if the composition is 2 WAR, the mt one will choose tole skills wisely and not all about deepees...WAR at the end of day is still a tank, there is no shame if you stay more or always in tank stance.

I think stance dancing will be needed for certain skill to perform, like PLD gets gauge only in SWO? or it does fill up faster in SWO? we dont know yet, but if so PLD is going to stance dancing to be able to use shelltron....

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Well, if WAR is the mt, then stay more in tank stance to be a "tank" and not a dps with big hp pool.

TBH, the new role skills selection will differentiate the mt and ot playstyle, WAR will be even more suited to be the ot and if the composition is 2 WAR, the mt one will choose tole skills wisely and not all about deepees...WAR at the end of day is still a tank, there is no shame if you stay more or always in tank stance.

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Tank stance uptime depends on the encounter design and group performance. So far nothing in creator savage requires more than a few seconds in tank stance without straining the healers, if your group plays well. Stances are utilities that come at a cost of dps reduction, use it as little as you can, depending on your skills and your group.

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Originally Posted by javid

Unless they make 4 man raid challenging I see no reason to take defensive cross class cds at the expense of any upgrade in dps cds. And this will be the predominant mindset behind all content for core player (what is the least combination of cross class cds do I NEED/WANT to sustain HP/hate...now the rest is for dps)

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Considering what we know about the Tank Role skill list... There are no dps buffs or damage cooldowns on the list.

Low Blow is just a stun with no damage and Interject inflicts silence with out damage.

Reprisal deals no damage only reducing the target's damage output by 10% for 5s.

Rampart, Convalescence and Awareness are defensive cooldowns.

Provoke and Ultimatum are both Enmity tools.

Only Anticipation and Shirk are mysteries and neither seems to have anything to do with dealing damage.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Considering what we know about the Tank Role skill list... There are no dps buffs or damage cooldowns on the list.

Low Blow is just a stun with no damage and Interject inflicts silence with out damage.

Reprisal deals no damage only reducing the target's damage output by 10% for 5s.

Rampart, Convalescence and Awareness are defensive cooldowns.

Provoke and Ultimatum are both Enmity tools.

Only Anticipation and Shirk are mysteries and neither seems to have anything to do with dealing damage.

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If what you say is true!!!?? SE may have heard my plea!!! I want End game RAid to return to having use of CC (silence stun, slow, heavy, blind, etc) these things add complexity to the game. So it's not just DPS sustain and move here then move bk. Now (hopefully) they will add to that list of do's: silence , stun (don't over stun), blind, heavy, etc etc!!!!


Fav fights thru out FFXIV are the fights that required CC (T5, T7, T10, A2, & A6)

Looks like bloodbath was given to dps... seems dps are losing damage boosters in exchange for self health and tp management... in fact damage modifier skills seem to be gone along with dot skills for Dps.... I expect they intend to slow battle a bit so that each role is a bit more relevant than just a difference in dps

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So as of now it seems that warrior is really just gona be best in an off tank situation mostly, because the gauges change or drop now when you tank dance on warrior which seems you have to rebuild it up before using say in inner beast.

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This can apply to all three tanks, really. From the looks of it, PLD has also had their enmity combo removed from their DPS rotation, with Riot Blade now comboing into Royal Authority. I think the whole "MT/OT" mentality is gonna have to go for good if the tanks want to be able to burst together, which will obviously be more optimal than just having one staying in DPS stance through the whole fight.

There might be a slight tank damage nerf too, and other factors that make it seem like SE wants to make the responsibilities of tanking more in line with tanking and managing enmity than having WAR pull and forgetting about tank stance and enmity combos for the entire fight.

I'm fine with this, making tanks and healers more complex in their primary role is a really nice move.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I just saw they are clemency cost half mp now so basicly instead of warrior being the self healing tank ull be better off healing urself as a pali now

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You'll have the option, but Holy Spirit is and PLD's new rotation in general seems to be intimately tied to MP use, so Clemency is gonna be a DPS loss. I think they really want to limit all tanks' self-healing abilities now that healers don't commit to any risk by DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

This can apply to all three tanks, really. From the looks of it, PLD has also had their enmity combo removed from their DPS rotation, with Riot Blade now comboing into Royal Authority. I think the whole "MT/OT" mentality is gonna have to go for good if the tanks want to be able to burst together,

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I dont trust healers , I started off as a healer I dont even trust myself all the time , death is the biggest dps loss and judging from the fact that what it looks like all tanks have lost two defensive cooldowns , with foresight and bloodbath being gone.

I have a smaller tool kit for tankin in sword oath and the other ot stances , so i can see me using clemency alot and ill sacrifice living over a dps gain anyday. Dun scathe is perfect example ive ran that so much and been the only player still alive its crazy. Not a call out sayin everyones bad but Im not gona put all my trust in random players Im just doing an instance with especally now that foresight, and bloodbath are gone. In my experience Ive died more from healers that didnt dps at all than those whom did some people just struggle with the role are struggle with the mechanics and if the healers dead I dont want it to always be well healers dead autowipe.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Bloodbath would like to have a word with you.

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Also Fell Cleave seems to have been nerfed. My friend pointed out that Yoshi was lv70 with the first tier of 70 gear and did 5 Fell Cleaves on a level 63 monster and it all together did around 1/8th the target's HP. Thats far down he told me from before assuming you built your stacks the smashed your cooldowns and managed 2 FCs.

Warriors are set and rightly so to be pissed off.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Also Fell Cleave seems to have been nerfed. My friend pointed out that Yoshi was lv70 with the first tier of 70 gear and did 5 Fell Cleaves on a level 63 monster and it all together did around 1/8th the target's HP. Thats far down he told me from before assuming you built your stacks the smashed your cooldowns and managed 2 FCs.

Warriors are set and rightly so to be pissed off.

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Tanks, in general, have been nerfed. Our damage main stat is now purely STR and we're locked into using VIT accessories. This means that we are losing a ton of AP (some from our left side and a lot from our right side) and is why Fell Cleaves weren't hitting hard. FC could also be nerfed for all we know, but that isn't necessarily the case.

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Also Fell Cleave seems to have been nerfed. My friend pointed out that Yoshi was lv70 with the first tier of 70 gear and did 5 Fell Cleaves on a level 63 monster and it all together did around 1/8th the target's HP. Thats far down he told me from before assuming you built your stacks the smashed your cooldowns and managed 2 FCs.

Warriors are set and rightly so to be pissed off.

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Again everyone is assuming the devs want the current meta to continue.... seems they want the classes more role focused and tanks and healers have less focus placed on dps...

Berserk Lost its pacification.......They're giving War everything....

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Originally Posted by ErikMynhier

Also Fell Cleave seems to have been nerfed. My friend pointed out that Yoshi was lv70 with the first tier of 70 gear and did 5 Fell Cleaves on a level 63 monster and it all together did around 1/8th the target's HP. Thats far down he told me from before assuming you built your stacks the smashed your cooldowns and managed 2 FCs.

Warriors are set and rightly so to be pissed off.

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No, the tooltip still said 500 potency and the damage was still proportional to autoattacks. My autoattacks do ~800-900 at i270 and my Fell Cleaves do ~3.2-3.6k. At i290 Yoshi was doing 1000 damage autoattacks and 4k damage Fell Cleaves. The reason damage didn't increase a huge amount is because tank DPS is only going to scale off STR while we're stuck with VIT accessories, and that's not a nerf that will only affect WAR.

Why less damage and more defensive focused is nerf? I wish they will make fights like titan extreme back then when the ilvl was 90. A little mistake could wipe the group and mountain buster could almost on shot you wiht tank stance up + light cd. That is what a tank should feel while fighting. Let dps do their main job properly. I think in 3.x dps is so important is because dpses cannot fully bring out thier potential due to high skill requirements. which is why Se want to reduce skill gap between harcore and casual players.

Like not every Mch can pull out 5 digit wildfire.....- -///

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Why less damage and more defensive focused is nerf? I wish they will make fights like titan extreme back then when the ilvl was 90. A little mistake could wipe the group and mountain buster could almost on shot you wiht tank stance up + light cd. That is what a tank should feel while fighting. Let dps do their main job properly. I think in 3.x dps is so important is because dpses cannot fully bring out thier potential due to high skill requirements. which is why Se want to reduce skill gap between harcore and casual players.

Like not every Mch can pull out 5 digit wildfire.....- -///

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seems to be less damage as less defense as well none of those cross role skills other than things that where already cross class are any forms of mitigation while blood bath and rampart are gone now.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

seems to be less damage as less defense as well none of those cross role skills other than things that where already cross class are any forms of mitigation while blood bath and rampart are gone now.

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The only job that suffers from the lack of bloodbath is warrior, and they got to swap foresight for rampart in exchange, which is several times better. Paladin and dark knight lose foresight but in exchange they gained omni-directional parry and block, making bulwark and dark dance stronger. Not to mention that paladin raid mitigation skill which guarantees 100% block rate (obviously costs quite a lot of dps though) and gives 15% mitigation. Besides we still haven't seen all the new skills yet. It's not unthinkable that some of the lv 62-70 skills are defensive in nature. Heck they may even put self healing effects on some of the existing skills.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

seems to be less damage as less defense as well none of those cross role skills other than things that where already cross class are any forms of mitigation while blood bath and rampart are gone now.

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Interrupting and nerfing attacks might become far more important that popping cooldowns. 3 of the cross role tank abilities (Low Blow, Interject and Reprisal) are designed to disrupt various attacks.

Tank Busters might end up being far less common than they are now. The Paladin defensive cooldown suite is pretty much designed to handle a tank buster every 45s even without Rampart and Convalescence.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Interrupting and nerfing attacks might become far more important that popping cooldowns. 3 of the cross role tank abilities (Low Blow, Interject and Reprisal) are designed to disrupt various attacks.

Tank Busters might end up being far less common than they are now. The Paladin defensive cooldown suite is pretty much designed to handle a tank buster every 45s even without Rampart and Convalescence.

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with what bulwark and sentinal those cool downs are forever so is hg rampart is a major part of thier tool kit , why im not understanding why you keep sayin that it shouldnt be taken all the other cool downs take forever to come back around

This is ridiculously silly for Paladins. On patch day Paladins will have lost:

Protect
Stoneskin
Raise (Palace of the Dead)
Bloodbath
Foresight
Mercy Stroke
Pacification (removed Shield Swipe)
Silence (removed from Spirits Within)
Rampart
Provoke
Awareness
Convalescence

Then we have to spend 5/5 Tank Role actions if we want to get our original last five abilities returned. We lose all of that to gain nothing essentially.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

with what bulwark and sentinal those cool downs are forever so is hg rampart is a major part of thier tool kit , why im not understanding why you keep sayin that it shouldnt be taken all the other cool downs take forever to come back around

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Passage of arms is a new 120s cooldown. Properly used you can have 1 cooldown for a tank buster every 45s in a 4.5 min fight. This isn't even counting Sheltron which should be up every 30s.

0 Sent (ready at 180)
45 Bulwark (ready at 225)
90 Passage of Arms (ready at 210)
135 HG
180 Sent
225 Bulwark
270 Passage of Arms

With a tank buster every 60s you can go endlessly.

0 Sent 180
60 Bulwark 240
120 Passage of Arms 240
180 Sent 360
240 Bulwark 420
300 Passage of Arms 420

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

This is ridiculously silly for Paladins. On patch day Paladins will have lost:

Protect
Stoneskin
Raise (Palace of the Dead)
Bloodbath
Foresight
Mercy Stroke
Pacification (removed Shield Swipe)
Silence (removed from Spirits Within)
Rampart
Provoke
Awareness
Convalescence

Then we have to spend 5/5 Tank Role actions if we want to get our original last five abilities returned. We lose all of that to gain nothing essentially.

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We're likely gaining at least a couple of new skills by losing those, so I really don't see the problem. Even if we don't, their ultimate purpose was to reduce button bloat, and being 100% honest, like 80% of what you listed was used very marginally.

Mercy Stroke was nigh useless, Foresight was a mediocre-at-best defensive CD, Bloodbath was awfully underwhelming for PLD (WAR is gonna hurt a lot from losing this, tho), Protect had a very niche use that ofentimes was unnecessary, and Stoneskin was barely used in actual battles without negatively impacting personal DPS. Having Raise in PotD was nice, but it's useless in literally every other piece of content. And iirc, Pacification was only ever useful to stop Ifrit's Eruptions in HM for some reason, lmao.

So, really, I don't see how the loss of all these skills would have any real impact.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

We're likely gaining at least a couple of new

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if the idea is to get rid of button bloat we likely want get any replacements for low level content. I consider any df cool down a net loss to tanks have u seen the healers u can get in this game. The ones that don't know what a Regen is or a healing buff. Yea I won't all my df cool downs if they wanted to fix button bloat they could of gotten rid of flash made scorn spamable, gotten rid of halone replace it with goaring. Added effect of tempered to another df cool down that's getting rid of useless stuff of useless stuff instead they got rid of midigation witch is bad considering the skill level between healers in this game. Taking away any form of mitigation is a bad thing in my book

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

tsh...as predicted, war lose nothing

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They lost bloodbath

The more I look at tank role skills the more I think it doesn't much matter for paladin. They actually might be the most free to pick abilities of all of them. Provoke is going to be required on tanks. AOE provoke, silence, and stun will be up to fight design. As pointed out above you can take a tank buster ever 45 second without rampart and not even counting sheltron. If you really want to turtle up thrown rampart and reprisal into the mix and wow a pld can mitigate damage.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

The more I look at tank role skills the more

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One of those mention the new one u can't even dps while using it. So I'd much rather have rampart so I can still dps. Hg some encounters it wpuld be best to save depending on the fight because u can likely only use it once. And again all depends on ur healer and whether ur in sword oath only . If ur using pf for something I'd say rampart and conv is not something I wouldn't have. I'm gona miss any form of mitigation as my goal is always now to try to tank in sword oath. Drk look bad now I know they won't be but as it stands , u only have shadow wall , living, and dark mind, so rampart is a must for them. I just liked it better having more mitigation options as opposed to not. This is why I'm not enjoying these changes drk don't even have a clemcy , or equilibrium type ability either

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

tsh...as predicted, war lose nothing

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Internal Release and Bloodbath at minimum.

And the others tanks aren't losing stuff, obviously they will get new skills to replace the "lost" ones.

Rampart being on the crossclass skills is honestly pretty weird. WAR now can have RI, Vengeance, Thrill, and Rampart as a part of their CD rotation - that's honestly a bit insane in terms of mitigation, not even counting Reprisal. I think the biggest problem is that this doesn't exactly equalize tanks that don't bring Rampart - WAR still has the same CD rotation it had before, but DRK/PLD are now missing a rather important part of their's.