Why everyone wants do PotD speed run?

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

PvP is a better way to start off in my view since getting 235 gear is quick though it while on top of getting lore and scripts.

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Some data centers have hours of queue time on pvp content, potd would be faster. Most people are not interested in pvp and would just afk it and I wasn't trying to support bad habits, the only reason I did not mention it. ilvl235 gear is fine, however it's pvp gear and won't hold up in higher level dungeons even so some people think it does but that's a complete different discussion. A couple of potd runs will lead to a full set of ilvl 230 gear as well as a couple of scripture pieces or/and at least the chest/pants in much shorter time in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

We clearly have very different experiences in AV, lol.

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That actually makes me feel really bad beacuse the exp from them is huge . . . . I actually frowned when I read it because and I thought "No!" lol. I'm sorry >.<;

The exp, quantity, and ease, it feels great to pop and kill them imo. I like them <3.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Fair enough, I apologize for skimming. These are all good ideas, but I'm left with one overarching question: why make this optional? If it's just a part of the dungeon, the result is the same as what you want; if it's optional, then some people are going to skip it, which will be even more aggravating because they will be objectively wrong to do so. What's the upside?

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I think.. its just a mental benefit, I mean this is getting into just how people "feel". So you can tell me how you feel about it and it would be just as well as what I said with no arguments to fight haha. To me its like if you removed RNG entirely from everything. You would know that it takes exactly 50 runs to get your pony. Part of this is great, but the other part reveals the grind so deeply in the game... Where an RNG can make you feel excited and unkown.. there is a nice feeling to RNG until it decides to royally screw you lol.

So I "feel" like that if its optional you will feel better about it, EVEN THOUGH the best reward will be to do it and therefore the standard for normal people will be to do it. Do you feel that's possible? Maybe its just me lol. Its like in those games where you can choose to be the good or bad, and game companies show that most people play the good but just by having a choice (even though for most its pretty linear) it feels different. It's like when you do something for yourself vs when someone tells you to do it, that sense of "my choice" (although sometimes people would fight, you're right and removing all choice would technically remove that lol).

For example, what if you were in Satasha and you're going down the hallway and there is a big hole in a wall you normally have never seen before. . Might be something special deciding to go down that hall rather than knowing the game is basically having a demon wall at your back saying "one way, move forward, nothing to see back here".

The other part of it is less about feelings and just that maps can be neat looking again lol. Right now if we look at our recent map contents they are incredibly basic geometrical shapes (hallways, and arenas). Even though it was linear I remember people talking about how the first dungeon for the Allagan tower was unique layout because you crisscrossed around. To me the story of the area can (has opportunity to be, may not actually lol) be more interesting with shapes that are more free to match their setting.

I don't suggest banishing hallways entirely, but I do feel like with optional content you get more interesting maps (even if the reward for doing them is so strong, and current) that you'd do it anyways.

I do understand what your overarching thought is coming from.. Its just my opinon that even when choices are "false" they can still feel impactful, especially if its because it gets players what they want (issue with talents sometimes is players dont want to make that choice but they have to) but if the reward was something they wanted (because SE would make sure it always was lol) then they'd willingly be like "I'm going to do the extra mile!". So perhaps you tell me if that would feel special to you or not, I understand if it wont - its just feelings (like I dislike hunts but I know some people who love them).

If we scrapped optional content because its just not a general feeling people share, then I would say I'd jump behind you with the mandatory style though. I would also still ask for "variations" like (the Satasha hole is not an option now, but sometimes its just there and changes your path slightly, different monsters, maybe the Key is in that extra room in Satasha, there is a small puzzle (rarely), still mandatory but small changes to mix it up). Like what if in a room that normally some dogs are its a group of enemy adventurers who've gone crazed, so you fight them and pick up an item for a small side quest outside of the dungeon to put their memories to rest (notify next of kin sort of deal).. that would be something fresh I feel.

Tl;dr if options is not enjoyed as much as I like them then I fully support your idea that we examine content in an absolute mandatory method. :P

(btw I've been editing my stuff a bit over time, I was a bit more sharp at first than needed at all - I've been reading my stuff like "why.. that wasn't needed" and editing it down lol).

I don't get why people go speed run past floor 60, isn't the experience gain flat accross all floors past 50?

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Some data centers have hours of queue time on pvp content, potd would be faster. Most people are not interested in pvp and would just afk it and I wasn't trying to support bad habits, the only reason I did not mention it. ilvl235 gear is fine, however it's pvp gear and won't hold up in higher level dungeons even so some people think it does but that's a complete different discussion. A couple of potd runs will lead to a full set of ilvl 230 gear as well as a couple of scripture pieces or/and at least the chest/pants in much shorter time in most cases.

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gero changed that, i still see fast queues but ya that is something else to keep in mind is how long you spend in queue.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

I don't get why people go speed run past floor 60, isn't the experience gain flat accross all floors past 50?

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same =/ i seen some people pushing us and my friend before, but 100 is increased but i do not think that is worth the time the climb. Just spam 50-60?

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Originally Posted by Ririta

I don't get why people go speed run past floor 60, isn't the experience gain flat accross all floors past 50?

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I can tell you that sort of thing is counter productive, especially if the aethergear average is below 70. 80 even if I wanted to push it.

I've yet to have bad experience in PotD. Course, the only time my group wiped was the first time me and a couple of my friends played it not knowing what mechanics the bosses had, and even then it was only floor 50 boss that we wiped.

For the most part, the groups I have been in haven't had issues with doing the whole dungeon. If you showed interested in actually wanting to kill everything, for the most part, everyone was up for it. If everyone seemed like they wanted to rush, that was exactly what we did. Never have I had someone complain if I wanted to do everything. Then again, I haven't really been in many groups that have been very verbal. I think, I only was in one group where people actually talked. It was 3 female characters, and one male. The male kept calling us his angels, so we started calling him Charlie. lol

Everyone who forces the rest of the group to bend to them is a jerk, speedrun or chest run.

If the majority of the group wants speed, you speedrun. You've been outvoted.

If the majority of the group wants chests, you grab chests. You've been outvoted.

Majority rules in matchmade parties.

They're doing you a favor even if you don't realise it. Faster runs = more runs = more silver, even if you don't get every silver chest available in one particular run.

My husband and I were doing PotD when it released with a friend of ours but then he quit and we never got around to going back to it... :\ This is the main reason I'm reluctant to get back into it now. We got to like...45-50 and I doubt anyone wants our noob butts. >_<

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Everyone who forces the rest of the group to bend to them is a jerk, speedrun or chest run.

If the majority of the group wants speed, you speedrun. You've been outvoted.

If the majority of the group wants chests, you grab chests. You've been outvoted.

Majority rules in matchmade parties.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

1>3 if that one needs silvers. DF is not for speed running or forcing that on people, if you are not in PF, do not expect speedrunning. A person should be free to peak and try find silvers if they need to. This is tranny of the majority because you are picking on someone and inhibiting of their progress.

Also what happens with 2 v 2? funny how this is never addressed.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

They're doing you a favor even if you don't realise it. Faster runs = more runs = more silver, even if you don't get every silver chest available in one particular run.

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That is not how it works. That is only an argument when some room is very hard to get to. I am sure chest runners know when something is worth trying and not.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

My husband and I were doing PotD when it released with a friend of ours but then he quit and we never got around to going back to it... :\ This is the main reason I'm reluctant to get back into it now. We got to like...45-50 and I doubt anyone wants our noob butts. >_<

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Ya be fine, just talk about it. If someone harasses ya over being new just kick em, that simple. If they are that elitist, be doin them a favor anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

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Have you even read the link yourself before posting it?

As per the subsidiary principle, every group makes their own local decision, there is no governance body to make a global one. That in turn means that the majority cannot enforce the rule to speedrun, because you can just make a group yourself that sets the rule to get chests instead. There is no centralization excess. There is no abandonment of rationality either, because the decision to speedrun is a rational one.

You're literally shooting your argument in the foot by posting that link, because it proves that there is in fact no tyranny of the majority happening.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Have you even read the link yourself before posting it?

As per the subsidiary principle, every group makes their own local decision, there is no governance body to make a global one. That in turn means that the majority cannot enforce the rule to speedrun, because you can just make a group yourself that sets the rule to get chests instead. There is no centralization excess. There is no abandonment of rationality either, because the decision to speedrun is a rational one.

You're literally shooting your argument in the foot by posting that link, because it proves that there is in fact no tyranny of the majority happening.

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If you say so, think what you want, but it is wrong.
Saying you need speedrun because the majority wants to fits the definition, and even pressured on these forums saying you need to PF to be a chest runner, sorry DF is not for speedrunning, stop impeding on chest runner progress.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

sorry DF is not for speedrunning, stop impeding on chest runner progress.

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You don't get to decide what DF is for. The community as a whole does. And similarly, I can say "stop impeding on speedrunner progress".

Majority rule is fair when you have 4 random people, because everyone's experience is equally valuable. My goal is no less or more important than yours.

The main question I would ask you, Undead, is what makes it so hard? You overgear the instance by nearly 40 ilevels, and gathering a party of similarly geared people to smash it via PF isn't that hard (people flock to bonus like drugs for WT/tomes). IIRC, Cuff of the Son isn't an instance where one person totally ruins the run for everyone else if they mess up, so there may be other problems as well.

Is it the rotations? Do you have some personal deficit/impairment that predispositions you for struggles like slow reactions or palsy? Do you struggle with timings and mechanics in raids or more complicated fights? These are the kinds of questions you can ask yourself (I'm not asking you to answer them publicly) to help you find ways to improve.

If you want to improve your gameplay, figure out what your biggest weakness is, and then see what you can do about it. Adapt yourself, and I'm sure you can do better and clear any of the current normal mode raids. You also might want to try

Is there a specific mechanic you struggle with? (Not super familiar with the fight, it's been a while since I did it, that the one with Quickthinks and the spiked floor?). If there is, have you tried going DPS with one you are comfortable with to lessen the stress on yourself and the party? Subpar DPS is much less of a burden than a constantly dead healer, and DPS have less mechanics to deal with usually.

Well. The question is.Why people wants speed run EVERY SINGLE THING in the game?

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Well. The question is.Why people wants speed run EVERY SINGLE THING in the game?

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I suppose it's because people are afraid to be stuck with bad players if they don't do it in time and it s what i don't like in this game.

When a patch release it s the race to kill primal very fast and if we don't kill it in time, anyone didn't do it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Well. The question is.Why people wants speed run EVERY SINGLE THING in the game?

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Because people are running every single thing for rewards and speedruns happen to be the most efficient way to get those rewards.

It's the natural consequence of reward-baiting. It's the same reason why people cheat in PvP to get rewards. And that is also why the people who want silver chests don't want speedruns - They want their own reward ASAP as well, the way to get it is just different from the so called speedrunners. That's why we have this argument.

I group with my fellow Freelance Wanderers when I want to hunt for silver chests. We politely let the other member(s) of the light party know we are going to be looking for silvers because our aetherpools or low. Never had a problem.

It helps that my friends and I tend to joke around and banter back and forth. It makes the slightly longer runs fun. People start joking too, and the next thing they know, they're looking at the boss.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

With higher floors (61+) you'll find more people going after silver chests.

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Correct! Given the exp/hour rate, go past floor 60 have sense if you need unlock the Kinna weapon (you need do floor 100 at least once) and that means you also are in need of silvers. Another way for silvers is the floor 1-50 run.

Whoever repeats 1-50 for exp had got it all wrong and must move to 51-60 farm.

Anyway, the BEST option is always ask your FC to help you. Advice good for all and everything existing in this game.

Edit: summary:
Floor 1-50:
- needed the first time, to unlock floors 51-100
- silvers needed to reach +30-ish weapon/armor to farm decently the floors 51-60

Floor 51-60:
- needed for exp farm OR silver farms

Floors 61-100:
- needed once for unlock Kinna weapon
- possibly better hoard grades there

Because of this, I just only ever duo PotD with my boyfriend now.
Too many times we had at least one person standing in the exit ALL THE TIME and insulting us when we were looking for silver chests. We didn't even go into every room, and we tried to be as fast as possible. But I absolutely hate doing all the work in dungeons etc. for others who do nothing at all. I don't see why I should level his character.
After we noticed that even with low aetherpool we cleared the floors almost as fast as with randoms like that, we never did PotD with a matched party ever again.
I get that many people want to do PotD only for leveling, but it's still group content. If one wants to ignore every chest to stand in the exit and three don't, I don't see why we should keep that one in the group. It's the same the other way around. If you're not willing to adjust to what the other three members want, maybe you would reach your goal faster if you make a PF group and everyone would be happier I guess.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Well. The question is.Why people wants speed run EVERY SINGLE THING in the game?

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Because time has value and nobody wants to waste their time dawdling through content they've done a dozen times already when all they care about is the shiny thing at the end.

I'd rather just speedrun to level quicker. It's easier to just grab a 260 Shire weapon then bother with getting +90/90.

This going to be an unpopular opinion, but I wish they'd remove the exp from the palace of the dead. Sure it's fast leveling but imo it has caused an unpleasant side effect of people having no clue how to play their class. Not to mention all the extra's it was designed to proved as reward are not collected becuase people are to too busy skipping stuff for fast xp. Hell half of the time the speed runners have really crap aetherpool lvls.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Because time has value and nobody wants to waste their time dawdling through content they've done a dozen times already when all they care about is the shiny thing at the end.

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This kills me. It's a game. You are "wasting" time anyway just by playing it. If time was that valuable you would be doing something productive.

Also,the argument they just want the shiny kills me too. If you don't want to do the content don't sign up to the dungeon.

Too many turn these games into jobs imo.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

This kills me. It's a game. You are "wasting" time anyway just by playing it. If time was that valuable you would be doing something productive.

Also,the argument they just want the shiny kills me too. If you don't want to do the content don't sign up to the dungeon.

Too many turn these games into jobs imo.

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This is based on all sorts of flawed reasoning and bad assumptions I don't really care to fully dissect and refute at the moment. Suffice it to say this idea that leisure time is time wasted is one of the most ass backwards beliefs anyone ever came up with. Time spent enjoying myself is time that is never wasted.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

No i don't know nothing about green tokens, in fact it's my first time even hearing about green tokens.

Well SORRY if i'm WORST player in whole game who can't get past Alexander - The Cuff of the Son raid, so STOP making FUN from it when i never was good on end game part of FFXIV and even in FFXIV ARR i never able beat The Binding Coil of Bahamut Turn 5 raid.So there is no point using party finder to beat Alexander - The Cuff of the Son raid when i always cause wipe no matter how i try to beat Alexander - The Cuff of the Son.

The reason why i'm talking about ilvl weapons are for OTHER jobs that i havent got to lvl 60 yet and i only have ilvl weapon for my summoner and i better weapon in some point.
Like i said I DON'T LIKE PVP, so stop trying to force me to play PvP when i don't wan't play PvP.

I know i can make ilvl 275 relic weapon but there is one problem, it takes really long to get it and i already used around 1 month doing first anima relic weapon for my main and i'm still on part where i need get umbrites and crystal sand.

Let me tell you something, i am TRYING all my best so stop saying that i'm a lazy player when i'm not.

So if you want i can stop playing FFXIV completely.

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first off it is not just you, it is you and 7 other people. To me you simply wiped once and complained about it, that is not how you do things. One person does not cause that to fail, so in the end I am just confused with why you having so much trouble. Bloody said it well, I am confused as heck how you are ranting about not doing something that is ilevel min 200 and your 263 or w/e. You really ... I mean.. I did it without knowing its like.. I heal and people do what you need to do.

Honestly I am on your side for the most part, people should let you get chests, see my comment to the next person. I am just trying to give you tools and ideas of alternative ways. In 2 months it is not even going to matter.

So your basic argument is you should be allowed to get chests in deep correct? I agree. I just can't understand though how someone can't get 1 relic, when I am going to do so in the next too weeks from past build up of simply doing 5 dailies per day to get the sands and umbrites and such.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You don't get to decide what DF is for. The community as a whole does. And similarly, I can say "stop impeding on speedrunner progress".

Majority rule is fair when you have 4 random people, because everyone's experience is equally valuable. My goal is no less or more important than yours.

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yoshi-p said himself, also rushing someone forcing to skip chest and not let someone progress is instantly selfish, I do not understand such toxicity. This is a good example and proof that pure democracy does not work, all you do is oppress people. Look at the post below yours, the one I am replying too, you want to drive people to quit over your selfishness of 5 minutes? This game hands you exp as is, you don't need get all jobs to 60 in a day, give me a break.

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Originally Posted by ToniRomo

I'd rather just speedrun to level quicker. It's easier to just grab a 260 Shire weapon then bother with getting +90/90.

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You never thought of the reverse of this?:

"I rather look for chests because I have all jobs at 60 and there is a limiting factor of grabbing a shire weapon for all my jobs because of a 900 (formerly 450 cap). I can get a 255 weapon in a day, not a week or in the past, 3 weeks. You telling people they shouldn't need silvers so that gives you a right to harass people is wrong. Exp off something else, game hands you exp, you do not need to be harassing people over 5 minutes. If you cannot cooperate with people, do not do deep."

Also a6:
https://youtu.be/SCWg8ylFcbc
tldr: need 2 tanks for that one, not exactly something you can do with 1 healer, 1 tank, 6 dps to burn though like some others.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

yoshi-p said himself, also rushing someone forcing to skip chest and not let someone progress is instantly selfish, I do not understand such toxicity. This is a good example and proof that pure democracy does not work, all you do is oppress people. Look at the post below yours, the one I am replying too, you want to drive people to quit over your selfishness of 5 minutes? This game hands you exp as is, you don't need get all jobs to 60 in a day, give me a break.

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Perhaps you should consider the very real possibility that you have a penchant for being melodramatic.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

rushing someone forcing to skip chest and not let someone progress is instantly selfish, I do not understand such toxicity.

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You know what else is selfish? Holding up someone else's level progress because you want more chests. See? It goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Let me tell you some thing, when i tride to do Alexander - The Cuff of the Son raid i tride doing it a lot but every time it ended up for wipe fest because of me when i died on boss Mechanisms all the time as healer, which then cause other 7 give up and leave the party.

And like already said multiply times the reason why i want do PotD to get ilvl 255 weapons are for my other jobs that i've been leveling slowly and for my dark knight and astrologian that both are stuck on ilvl 235 Padjali weapon that i able to get after i got ilvl 255 kinna weapon formy scholar (main) and bard when people still did collect silver chests.

But if you want i give up trying to even get decent gear for jobs i want before 4.0 comes and also stop playing FFXIV completely when i'm not good enough to beat content that is super easy for everyone but for me too hard.

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You are not giving me enough information to work with.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Also a6:
https://youtu.be/SCWg8ylFcbc
tldr: need 2 tanks for that one, not exactly something you can do with 1 healer, 1 tank, 6 dps to burn though like some others.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

You know what else is selfish? Holding up someone else's level progress because you want more chests. See? It goes both ways.

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No it does not, you did not bother with my full message. Keep spreading toxicity for all i care, i am tried of spreed runners harassing people.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

yoshi-p said himself, also rushing someone forcing to skip chest and not let someone progress is instantly selfish, I do not understand such toxicity. This is a good example and proof that pure democracy does not work, all you do is oppress people. Look at the post below yours, the one I am replying too, you want to drive people to quit over your selfishness of 5 minutes? This game hands you exp as is, you don't need get all jobs to 60 in a day, give me a break.

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This means exp gain in this game is fast enough, and I would argue too fast, there is no reason whatsoever, no excuse, people legitimately have for not letting people find chests because you get too much handed to you, exp wise, as is.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Well. The question is.Why people wants speed run EVERY SINGLE THING in the game?

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If you ask me, at some point the playerbase accepted "speed" as a measure of how skilled the group is. Sure, performing your role/job well usually does make things go faster, but that's like saying you're "skilled" because you can down Garuda Ex in under 2 minutes now. Speedrunning itself isn't an issue if everyone's intent on doing it and primed to do so.

But I'll be brutally honest: Speedrunning, the "I just wanna get it done and over with so I can move on to other things" mindset, and the "DF mentality" are the reason we have boring, faceroll "Expert" dungeons now. Someone mentioned before that no one bothers with side rooms, and they detract from exploring the dungeon. . . Are you really "exploring" when you're just trying to beeline for the exit? Conjecture, I know, but really think about that. You want interesting dungeons, you want worthwhile loot, but you "just wanna get it done and over with", thus speedrunning becomes the implied standard. . . I dunno man. Something's got to give there.

I'll level with you though, PotD isn't exactly the most interesting content after the first time, even if it is the best way to level, and maybe some of us - myself included - don't really have that much time to fully explore, and thus are not 99/99. But speedrunning, at least as a forced standard, really seems the big reason so much sub-raid, endgame content is mind-numbingly easy which drives people to want to blaze through it, which makes devs continue to make content mind-numbingly easy, which. . . get the idea?

Oh, and the "make a PF for what you want" argument is flat, lame, and needs to just go away. How about just, oh I dunno, communicating and being civil/compromising toward one another when matched randomly in the DF. Crazy concept, I know. But you'd be amazed how far a little kindness and consideration might get you.

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Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

Like i said I DON'T LIKE PVP, so stop trying to force me to play PvP when i don't wan't play PvP.

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Let me first clarify that I'm in no way picking on you. But I wanted to expand on this just a bit, as a PvPer. You say you've never tried it, but you don't like it? I'm assuming PvP in other games perhaps, yes? That's fine and there's nothing wrong with not being interested, but I will say that it'd be unfair to simply write it off based on experiences from another game. At the same time, for us PvPers, this is a bit of a sensitive topic, similar to how you may be sensitive about your efforts to progress going overlooked.

Forever ago, people just decided - without trying it - that FFXIV PvP was bad (I'll admit, it's not perfect, but I enjoy it), full of toxic players just looking to ruin your day, and "a waste of development resources". For those of us that actually did step in and found something we love, we've been stuck dealing with that terrible stigma that we know is largely untrue, but without getting people to actually, legitimately try, we have nothing to offer when slammed with the burden of proof. It literally becomes our word vs theirs. A small community's experience vs the larger body's word of mouth. . . Countless times I've heard someone just easily rattle off untrue statements about PvP, yet I can literally see and hear the switch turn off in people's heads the moment I mention my actual experiences. Again, no one HAS to like it, and I'm not looking to sway your opinion on it, but the issue is people just unilaterally dislike it without even trying. As I said before, it's a sensitive subject for us.

Just go with the speed run mentality, I will tell you from personally experiencing it 3 weeks ago, from level 30-60, aether level at zero, I leveled my alts monk in POTD and approximately by level 49-51 I was capped on aether pools...

This was fine with only speed running, RNG may vary but it won't be like you'll hit 60 on a leveling job before you cap AP...and you don't need a level 60 weapon at level 31...

Even for other level 60 jobs, just speed run and gather xp and AP at the fastest rate.

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Originally Posted by WeekendSoja

Just go with the speed run mentality,

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Why should so,done just go with it? I mean some folks like to get the accursed hordes too. I seen groups get an intuition and state that unless we cross it's path leave it alone if the cairn of passage is open. My response to that is usually BS! Speed running isn't necessarily a bad thing I do it too. However, if someone comes into the group that does not want to speed run I vote no speed run. I am not going to deprive someone from doing the content. If you are not willing to run the content as intended do not queue. Is my philosophy and opinion.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Why should so,done just go with it? I mean some folks like to get the accursed hordes too. I seen groups get an intuition and state that unless we cross it's path leave it alone if the cairn of passage is open. My response to that is usually BS! Speed running isn't necessarily a bad thing I do it too. However, if someone comes into the group that does not want to speed run I vote no speed run. I am not going to deprive someone from doing the content. If you are not willing to run the content as intended do not queue. Is my philosophy and opinion.

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How is "speed running" running the content not as intended? Where does it say that the intention is that you need to clear the entire floor before you move to the next? Why would it even let us go to the next floor if that was the intention?

Furthermore why should one person get to hold three people hostage because they want something different? If the majority of the group wants to explore for chests, fine. If the majority wants to speed run, that should be fine, too.

Ideally it would be nice if everyone understood the math behind why speed running, specifically in Palace of the Dead, is not a bad thing, but I get it... Math is hard. So I don't press the issue. But really... there is nothing you can get from PotD being slow and methodical that you can't also get by going quickly and efficiently, but going quickly and efficiently also gets you more clear rewards for the over-all time you spend in the content.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

How is "speed running" running the content not as intended? Where does it say that the intention is that you need to clear the entire floor before you move to the next? Why would it even let us go to the next floor if that was the intention?

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One could argue that speed running is the intent. Why else would there be a timer if not to see how fast you can go? You can also fail a duty if you let the time elapse.

Fastest I've ran a set of 10 floors in a PUG is 12 minutes. Lets see if I can get one under 10.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Furthermore why should one person get to hold three people hostage because they want something different? If the majority of the group wants to explore for chests, fine. If the majority wants to speed run, that should be fine, too..

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This is the direction the discussion usually takes. Just as you can't force anyone to speed run, you can't force them not to. No one's right, no one's wrong.

Where people go wrong is the moment they decide for the other person how it's gonna go. Are you the one guy who forcefully slows down the group? Or perhaps the healer that stops healing in protest/spite of not getting your way? Are you the guy that silently takes off before anyone even manages a "hi"? Because THAT'S the person who's wrong. And to the people saying "just deal with it" or "just accept it", no. That's what kills people's desire to run content. That's what kills queues and forces people to ONLY run anything with their cliques. And while there's nothing even wrong with that, it's overall unhealthy for content that's currently limited to just your server.

Best thing to do - I know this sounds crazy - is to communicate. Ask for what you want. If everyone's cool, great. If not, politely excuse yourself. No harm, no foul.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Where people go wrong is the moment they decide for the other person how it's gonna go.

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Someone has to make a decision.

If three people want to get silvers, and One wants to speedrun. Which is it going to be? Think about it for a moment. If you have three players who do NOT want to speed run. It makes them irate, it makes them upset, or makes them physically ill, whatever. And the same thing for the one. Who decides?

Well we know the answer, the majority in this case. But you're going on about neither party is right or wrong. And I'll agree neither is. But does the one have the right to tick off three people because of their playstyle?

What do you do when someone's mere presence is infringing on others?

Someone makes a decision.

Because -that- is the right thing to do. That's called initiative and something that is unfamiliar to normal people. Anyone who works in any sort of professional environment knows what that is. You don't hold up the whole because of feelings or attitude. Someone takes charge, steps up, and initiates a solution for the betterment of the whole.

This doesn't mean one guy gets screwed against a majority. Sometimes concessions can be made. Depends on everyone's disposition. But one has to be made. When you enter a dungeon through the queue. You have made a statement that entails you will be working with 3 random players. You have made a covenant that states you intend to complete the event. Everything else is second to that.

When a player sits in a corner because they wish to speed run. They violate that covenant because they are not ensuring the completion of the goal they agreed to. Same thing with the one player going for every chest at risk to the group.

Someone makes a decision to what type of run it will be. Once the decision is made. Complete the objective. And let's be honest. This thread would never have been started nor gone on for as many pages as it has if most people stepped up and led a group.

Some of you are saying to communicate. This is different. This is a one-sided conversation. What you are suggesting is a 2-way conversation coming to a consensus. There is no consensus. You have a goal. Complete it. It will say Duty Failed if you don't. There is no consensus to a plan, you didn't step up if someone else decided the dungeon. I know this statement pricks at your sensibilities. You've experienced mostly the effects of an unorganized mob in most of your career and experience in games.

Think about that.

When you join a PUG, do you talk? No you run it the way its always been run. If its your first time, you might ask how others do it. But you do it the way everyone else does it. But in PotD (and some dungeons) many of you see two ways to run it. Speed run, and Silver farm. Both have their uses. Now we have players who have different 'personal goals' joining together. Now they want a consensus.

That's not how that works. That's not how the dungeon was designed. You signed up to complete the objective. So complete the damn objective. Its not that hard. Your personal goal doesn't come before that. The moment people figure that out, is the time when threads like this don't need to be created.

Consensus.. there is no consensus. Players have made their choices. You all simply need to make yours.

As for premades, what they do is their business.

I don't agree in saying that people can't come to a consensus through communication in a DF PUG or mesh personal and game-imposed goals... but written like a good piece of persuasive writing to be sure. I do agree with the overall message about the state of the game and mentalities/behaviors, especially the portion about initiative and decision-making, though. If people don't step up and decide to communicate then there will never be consensus between groups, at which point you do hit the wall of "complete the damn objective" because nobody cares enough to communicate. I guess my take on it (piggybacking off of yours a bit, Kaethra) is that people need to stop thinking inside their boxes and picture the bigger box: your group-mates and the designed objectives, not just your personal "needs" (which are really just wants).

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

"I rather look for chests because I have all jobs at 60 and there is a limiting factor of grabbing a shire weapon for all my jobs because of a 900 (formerly 450 cap). I can get a 255 weapon in a day, not a week or in the past, 3 weeks. You telling people they shouldn't need silvers so that gives you a right to harass people is wrong. Exp off something else, game hands you exp, you do not need to be harassing people over 5 minutes. If you cannot cooperate with people, do not do deep."

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The amount of people farming POTD for weapons because they have every job at 60 they are trying to equip is probably a very small number. If 3 out of 4 people want to prioritize speed and exp then it sounds like you are the one not cooperating.

Personally I would prioritize exp, but if someone wants to get chests I don't mind. They would have to say something at the start, which I have not seen anyone do.

I've learned at this point to just run with the flow. If the party wants to speed run, then screw it, we'll speed run. If someone is running for chests, I'm going to go to help them, even if others won't, because that'll only speed up the process.

Only real exception is when someone is kinda low (like maybe 27/25 or something) and really needs them. That's when I try to convince the party and learn every now and again why I should just turn off party chat.