The Final Reason on why we have more DPS than Tanks or Healers

Give parsers by default, including a vs. expected-given-total-gear-weight ratio, and voila, DPS scrutiny. Scrutiny for everyone.

Alternatively, you could make tanks about more than just meat-tanking (here referring to actively seeking to be pummeled by enemy unavoidables, even if in place of other, squishier allies, rather than manipulating enemies to reduce their damage outputs), and encourage cross-role concerns (e.g. DPS must participate in matters of survival for more than just giant-stack-here-arrows mechanics), requiring a much larger portion of gameplay to be a team effort...

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Originally Posted by Ririta

DPS are forced into the genre with bloated HP pools in enemies and artificial "deal x damage or wipe" mechanics. Just see all those discussions that sparked during Gordias and DPS checks - one of the most common reasons for DPS checks is that "or else people would go with only tanks and healers".

In fact, I'd say that the genre would be more interesting without DPS. Tanks relies on healers, healers relies on tanks, there's an obvious synergy there. DPS? You have no way nor/or need to help tanks or healers, you just do your own thing like in a single player game.

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As a Dragoon or BLM, maybe. Otherwise, no more so than a tank, depending on the fight...

It's not as if the options are that much more involved for tanks or healers. As a Monk I routinely grab and gather adds if the OT dies, and when still able as a Summoner I'd then tri-bind them to free up the Monk and avoid damage entirely while rezzing said OT, such that the Monk can debuff the boss's magic damage before the would-be wipe cast because dps is running slow with the OT dead and Mantra us all before the DoT would kill us, etc... Tanks get Provoke to call attention from one target if they continue attacking it, and the rarely effective Cover and costly Clemency for all of one of those tank jobs.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just try to create more overlap and cross responsibility, rather than pick a category as being the best, leave it barebone, and scrap the rest despite their frequently near-equal merits? >.>

Every DPS main I've ever known has told me they love causing damage and seeing big numbers. Not one has told me they play DPS roles because it has less responsibility than healers and tanks.

All roles are vital: The DPS MUST kill things before resources run out, and/or DPS checks expire. The tank MUST keep hate in order for the DPS to optimize their rotations, and ease the pressure of their healers. Healers MUST keep the tank and DPS on their feet as a dead tank or DPS cannot perform their roles. When ANY of these things don't happen, the group fails.

The constraint DPS have does not exist for tanks and healers. DPS players have limited utility to heal and generate hate should their healer or tank fall, and the small amount of utility they do have is also vastly limited and cannot be sustained over a long period of time. Healers and tanks however, have a tremendous amount of ability to contribute to the damage pool. As a result, they can be seen as having more responsibility, but their damage rotations are not as sophisticated, and are abandoned on the fly to perform their primary duties. This is a luxury DPS players do not have.

In short, we have to stop giving DPS players the short end of the stick. They carry a different responsibility, and not necessarily less. I'm quite happy to have the amount we do, and a big thank you to all those that care about their groups.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I must say I'm the opposite. I find tanks and healers more enjoyable because they're much more reactionary. Something goes wrong, as tank/healer you have to see it and adapt. DPS I find is usually just playing the dance routine of buttons, which I don't enjoy. I think most people prefer to be able to play to a routine though rather than having to be ready to react to when it hits the fan. They just keep trucking along.

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And that's cool, man! I daresay, every class has some level of reaction involved- I don't just use Dismantle or Rend Mind off cooldown, I wait for tank busters or phase transitions to chuck a wrench at the boss's head so that it's helpful. I don't promote for MP regain as a routine- I look over at my party's bars and see the healer(s) have low MP and pop it, essentially doing the same "check bars and react" that they're doing. I check enmity when I'm dropping hot wildfires on something so that I don't pull off the tank- checking enmity just like a tank is doing. And I don't just use Blank or Suppressive Fire off-cooldown(unless it's on a boss, then blanking/suppressive is okay, unless it's stunnable, then just blank), I wait to use them to interrupt, or shove a caster back into a group with the rest of the mobs a tank is dealing with. A DPS can and should adapt just as much as anyone else in the party- it's just generally noticed less by everyone else when the DPS either excels or falters.

But you, large blue fellow, you do what you enjoy. Same as I will!

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Wouldn't it make more sense to just try to create more overlap and cross responsibility, rather than pick a category as being the best, leave it barebone, and scrap the rest despite their frequently near-equal merits? >.>

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Yes, I agree. I didn't mean to offend. Sadly MMORPGs are removing the DPS' responsability in groups more and more. Crowd management, aggro management, buffs and debuffs, spell interrupption all used to fall on the backs of DPS. Simple things that helped their healers and tanks, but nowadays are forgotten in favor of pure damage.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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DPS are artificial as Tanks and healers, they are pretty useless without those 2 roles at they sides bcs they cant do they purpose without then.
Its a social problem not the Trinity desing, like others say you can be easily Kick or even harrased by doing you job bad, but as a dps you hardly go to be noticed, damage os not all that matters, the Trinity is a system Focus on make complex gameplays with "easy" party responsabilitys, the other side of the Coín is a Monster Hunter Gameplay where you need to be tanky, dealt enough damage and heal yourself. the Gameplay is pretty simple, in fact Monster Hunter aim more to tanky mentality.
Ppl dont choose playing dps bcs think damage is the best or a nonsense like that, ppl choose they Jobs for how looks at the begining (if they are New in the genre),Gameplay after try a few or all of It, and for they own experience in the role, many New tanks and healers leave It by pretty bad runs bcs jerks points they fails in a rude form bcs compared to being a dps tanks need to know everything and do everything perfect even if you are complety New in satasha.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

In terms of brute force yes, but lighter weapons, daggers especially are easier to hit the vital parts of a body, which can deal the most prolonging agony or even the most sudden of deaths.

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touche. If this level of reality were in the game, tanks could topple over enemies with a strong swipe, making the job more impactful and fun, even if the vital points damages arent so high. Then again, stuff like that could liven the role a bit since the only big d number tanks get to see is how much that benediction healed them for... not gonna lie, as a dps you can tell when the other dps is slacking very early on. But i love seeing those big numbers, or how fast the mobs are melting. Not that any role is perfect but dps certainly is the least stressful to me, often risking that long queue after havint a bad time tanking a run or tired of tanking for a while. All 3 roles have their nagging stresses. Many dps can even add that getting a single mob pull tank with a blm/smn or smnsmn comp is pretty stressful. Then tanks and healers have to worry about getting ice wizards and autoattacking machinists who seem to have a never ending supply of TP. Then maybe youre the type of healer that stresses over the speedrunning tank when you look over and see a mnk/drg comp(personally try to chainpull more than grab the whole floor with this comp) TBH its DF in general imo. These days i wont even tank unless a friend is going with me, dps or healer, because i know ill have at least 1 good dps or healer

besides all of that, tanks in this game dont feel very tank like, they have very little to no survivability and their real defense comes from momentary cooldowns. It would be like forcing healers to be in cleric stance except they got 3 cooldowns to boost their healing to normal non cleric stance numbers momentarily. The design is just stacked against tanks in favor of making healers more necessary. And those dps wipe mechanics, again artificially added to make dps feel special and needed as well. It is a teamwork effort though, but i feel like the salt would lower down if teamwork was less forced on the roles, for more substantial goals. Like, say the original steps of faith. That wont happen though its too hard apparently to put objectives in fights besides spamming best burst rotation so itll remain how it is and healer and tank queues will still be minimal to small. For you tanks out there that havent tried this yet, i urge you to do the dps novice network trials. You want to see a tank that lets the adds wreck the healer, thats what they give you lol

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Incorrect.

Ignoring gearing (including accuracy issues) and mechanics, it all boils down to this:
DPS

• Deal Damage

Healers

• Deal Damage
• Heal

Tanks

• Deal Damage
• Tank

And even then, a lot of groups care more about how well you deal damage over how well you can tank or heal.

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a single dps in an 8 man party does more dps than all of them combined there are 4 of us killing the things falls on us. yes tanks deal damage they have to its how aggro works and healers do it because they'd just be standing there over wise but total they make up about 5% of a bosses hp in terms of damage.

This isn't correct.

I just did a few 8 and 24 mans today and each time we had to wait for DPS to fill the queue. Specifically.. raids. 3 Tanks, 6 Healers, and 15 DPS. You need FIVE DPS for every tank. Compared to 4 mans which require only Two DPS for every tank.

Tank shortage? Not at the endgame. Everyone that wants to tank, is either tanking. Or rerolled because its too congested. Think about that for a moment. What senses does it make to roll and level a tank if you likely will have to roll a DPS to do content you mean to do?

I get that not everyone raids. But honestly. I don't believe everyone spends their time PUGing on Sastasha. Eventually you move up to something. And like most MMOs, statics/guilds like to use a specific tank. They don't often (but not always) swap tanks around. That's true from raiding, to trials, to even 4 man roulette. Just take a look at your own servers requests. It usually DPS of some sort. Followed by Healers, and lastly by tanks.

You can level fast as a tank. In the leveling queues and roulette, you get an instant queue. You can run a dungeon as soon as you finish the one you're on. So everyone who figured they'd get fast levels got to max level (and ilvl) then realized.. there's not a place for them. So now they're back in the queues as DPS.

3 tanks to 15 dps thats a close ratio to the roughly 20ish percentile of healer/tank to dps. But your problem wasnt shortages, it was human conditioning, not knowing how the other alliances multikicked afk dps, dps going f this i got work in half an hour, or anything relative to what happened in your run. could be bad tanks and awful healers, could be anything. DPS leaving a 24 man is usually highly the fact they got their drop finally and said f it.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

This isn't correct.

I just did a few 8 and 24 mans today and each time we had to wait for DPS to fill the queue. Specifically.. raids. 3 Tanks, 6 Healers, and 15 DPS. You need FIVE DPS for every tank. Compared to 4 mans which require only Two DPS for every tank.

Tank shortage? Not at the endgame. Everyone that wants to tank, is either tanking. Or rerolled because its too congested. Think about that for a moment. What senses does it make to roll and level a tank if you likely will have to roll a DPS to do content you mean to do?

I get that not everyone raids. But honestly. I don't believe everyone spends their time PUGing on Sastasha. Eventually you move up to something. And like most MMOs, statics/guilds like to use a specific tank. They don't often (but not always) swap tanks around. That's true from raiding, to trials, to even 4 man roulette. Just take a look at your own servers requests. It usually DPS of some sort. Followed by Healers, and lastly by tanks.

You can level fast as a tank. In the leveling queues and roulette, you get an instant queue. You can run a dungeon as soon as you finish the one you're on. So everyone who figured they'd get fast levels got to max level (and ilvl) then realized.. there's not a place for them. So now they're back in the queues as DPS.

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So think really log and hard about dedicated tanks and healers who get no new job to slog the first week of stormblood in. I want to play red mage, but im going to do story as smn or blm. Ive seen this happen in hw, and was one of those level the new shiny first ty[es/ Thhe best approach is to let others server first that 7p while youre already got a full set of tome gear in the time it took them to start story. because "no new tanks and no new healers make career tanks and healers something something."

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

So think really log and hard about dedicated tanks and healers who get no new job to slog the first week of stormblood in. I want to play red mage, but im going to do story as smn or blm. Ive seen this happen in hw, and was one of those level the new shiny first ty[es/ Thhe best approach is to let others server first that 7p while youre already got a full set of tome gear in the time it took them to start story. because "no new tanks and no new healers make career tanks and healers something something."

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I'm actually stoked there are no new healers and tanks in Stormblood.

It means that from day 1, there's a stable base of both of them going into the expansion, people who know what the hell they're doing on their jobs, unlike with HW, where I met far too many toy healers unable to keep their groups alive (and without a clue why they'd even need crossclass skills) -- and I still meet far too many (undergeared) toy DRK's without ANY crossclass levels (Money quote: "I don't need Provoke, I have Unmend!") unable to maintain even small pull aggro even in dungeons.

So going into Stormblood, there's going to be a reliable base of healers that know what they can do, when to do it, and why - and the same for tanks.

So no, I don't mind the lack of new tank/heal jobs - I'd much rather have fewer new jobs that are actually well designed and offer new synergies rather than a flood of "it's like job X but not as we know it" additions.

If you compare with other MMOs, Tanks on FF14 are in pretty decent numbers. Some are really fun to play, when you take time to masterize them.
They simply tag with their friends.
For exemple, I almost never run roulette without one or 2 friends in my party. And I bet I'm far for being the only one doing this.
Why ? Because most of the time they want to avoid random squishy tanks. And I want to avoid uneffective DPS.

I read something about how artificial DPS checks are, but honestly I wish there were more of them, even on trashs mobs. Because when you see a SMN only doing Ruin at lvl 60, you souldn't be able to complete the mission.
And yes, most people choose DPS to see big numbers (that's why I dont understand slacking players on thoses roles).
I choose tank because I like big numbers, but in my HP bar :D

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Originally Posted by St0rmchild

I'm actually stoked there are no new healers and tanks in Stormblood.

It means that from day 1, there's a stable base of both of them going into the expansion, people who know what the hell they're doing on their jobs, unlike with HW, where I met far too many toy healers unable to keep their groups alive (and without a clue why they'd even need crossclass skills) -- and I still meet far too many (undergeared) toy DRK's without ANY crossclass levels (Money quote: "I don't need Provoke, I have Unmend!") unable to maintain even small pull aggro even in dungeons.

So going into Stormblood, there's going to be a reliable base of healers that know what they can do, when to do it, and why - and the same for tanks.

So no, I don't mind the lack of new tank/heal jobs - I'd much rather have fewer new jobs that are actually well designed and offer new synergies rather than a flood of "it's like job X but not as we know it" additions.

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Quite a few career tanks and healers are about to hop onto the SAM and RDM boats because they are their "true' mains. Is it the same case for them? Especially if they have limited experience playing a DPS role? This is a legitimate question and not an argument. I have very limited experience playing as DPS.

A big burden that healers and tanks carry is that their mistakes are far more visible to others. If a DPS lets a buff drop, or isn't in proper position to optimize damage, the only one that generally notices are them. When I've run as tank or healer, I have no clue when a DPS member muffs their rotation. I only notice when things take longer to kill than normal, which requires very crappy DPS; or when a DPS member requires more heals than the tank, which might be the tank's fault. If you screw up as a healer or tank though? Prepare to start over.

In this sense tanks and healers carry a heavy burden, but it is still on the DPS to kill that which wants to eat the healer and the tank. I totally get why DPS want to see those big numbers, because they are the sole indicator of how well they are doing their job.

That said, the effect of low experience DPS players queueing in 50+ content will be felt just as much, if not more than new tanks and healers in HW. The reason being with HW, the extra jobs started at 30, and this is still very much training wheel content. 50+ though, these training wheels should be a distant memory. I believe there will be skilled players, particularly current DPS players, who pick up things quickly, but for every one of them, expect at least two of the opposite.

I'm sorry but I disagree. As a tank main (been one for 12 years between WoW, FF) I will always live by the concept that there's nothing easier thank tanking. We do least mechanics and usually they are set in stone and we hardly have to adjust. People perceive tanking as wrong and it makes them scared of trying, but really is a job that takes less time to master and has to deal with less variables...
On the other hand healers, holy fuck, I don't know how you do it, having to do your part and account for everyone else shortcoming, you will always have my praise

Hi all, OP here.

First and foremost, I've to say THANK YOU to everyone participated the discussion so far. A lot of good points were made, and even the disagreement were made civil and with reasons, this alone makes the forum a point forward than other ones elsewhere.

Then, I've now to clear something about the OP, as some if you already noticed (and played along with), there were some irony in it, and maybe even joking a little on what happens today on our daily experiences on DF. Lines as "focus heal who doesn't know mechanics" and "know he will be blamed for anything goes wrong" got a place there to make it more clear, but a fast reading maybe made someone missing them and taking me too much seriously.

Now, here comes what I think about the topic, in order to clear if I'm joking or not on some points.

First thing, I think a party is a group of players that collaborate themselves in order to reach a goal. Collaboration is the keyword. Today I see little to no collaboration at all. Players are hissing each other, and waiting the errors of the others for a blame, or just ditching the party when composition does not meets some expectations.

Now, expectations are one of the main points of the troubles on DF. Veterans expecting to play with players on same level, but it will never happen on DF. When I read the forum about what happens in DF, it seems all and everyone have A12S in farm mode. But reality check (called the "March 2017 census") shows how things are: more or less, only 3% of the population of a server cleared it. Three percent. If you have to expect something in your matched DF party, it is more reasonable meet with average/subpar player 97% of the times. When I am being matched with skilled players, I think to be on the lucky side of the rng gods.

Then, about roles. Yes, each one have its weight, to me does not exists a role more or less important than the other: we all are there for a reason. The only fact we cannot deny, is when dps is lacking in something, it is tenfold less noticeable than what may be on the tanking or healing side. Unless you are overgeared for the duty, as dps you cannot think to eat the mobs you aggro, and a tank failing on it, is immediately noticed. Same for the healing, so obvious that with it lacking, the wipes are just a step away. Slow dps instead, is just mobs dying more slowly. Dps is noticed when it is so slow that tanks run out of CDs and healers of mana, and this is quite rare. Happens, but rare. About dps checks, today we have so easy access to high ilevel stuff, that them will be a thing just on raids, hardly the dps check are missed on duties even with subpar dps. Again, it may happen but it is rare.

Again, thank you all!

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

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A single DPS in an 8-man does about 2,000+~ if they're decent, there are situations where it might be less, but this is the guideline. Tanks, realistically only Warrior though, can do up to 2,000 as well. Healers can go up to 2,000 as well from what I've seen.

Tanks deal damage, yes. But they're expected to deal damage in their damage stance, not within their tank stance, they're also expected to have their high-damaging skills (ie. Carve & Spit, Fell Cleave) buffed to the max in any way possible when used. This is why NIN is part of the meta, because not only can it take advantage of slashing debuff, but also boost the aggro of a DPS stance tank's opener. Healers are expected to deal damage whenever possible, regardless of the fact of sitting there and not doing anything, and on top of this, if you choose to use a GCD on a damage skill over a healing skill and it cost the life of let's say 3 people... that's a huge responsibility... because you potentially might have caused a wipe in 4-man content, I say potentially because I've seen people bounce back with just the healer alive.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

DPS are forced into the genre with bloated HP pools in enemies and artificial "deal x damage or wipe" mechanics. Just see all those discussions that sparked during Gordias and DPS checks - one of the most common reasons for DPS checks is that "or else people would go with only tanks and healers".

In fact, I'd say that the genre would be more interesting without DPS. Tanks relies on healers, healers relies on tanks, there's an obvious synergy there. DPS? You have no way nor/or need to help tanks or healers, you just do your own thing like in a single player game.

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Thats why back when I played The Secret World, the game made clear what they expect people to bring. To unlock the highest difficulty mode, a tank had to bring selfheal and stuns, to interrupt boss skills. The healer had to heal, and bring a debuff cleanse. And the DPS had to bring an ability to purge buffs from the boss.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

DPS are forced into the genre with bloated HP pools in enemies and artificial "deal x damage or wipe" mechanics.

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Do you think so?

Let's remove DPS, aka damage dealers from the game then. This means that you also remove damage from the game, as anything that is able to deal damage is a damage-dealer and we just removed those from the game. Let's see what happens.

*crystal ball mode*
Everyone stays at full HP forever. Tanks cannot mitigate any damage since there are no enemy DPS anymore, healers cannot heal anything since there is no damage to undo anymore and aggro doesn't matter because nobody takes damage anyway, as all damage dealers and thus damage has been removed. Since you have no damage either, every enemy is invincible.

Congratulations, you broke the game. Got any more bright ideas?

Wanna know what really forces DPS into the game? Health. Because damage is a means to reduce health. And without damage, both tanks and healers break. Everything irreparably breaks. Damage dealers are a necessity. In contrast, you can remove tanks and healers and only need to adjust a few numbers, because only health and damage matter. Both of these roles exist for no sake but their own. They are superfluous. And because they are superfluous, they are ditched for DPS whenever possible, aka the DPS meta.

It's the cold, harsh truth of the trinity. People crack it up to far more than it really is.

Is it bad that I keep reading people saying how every role as important as "#allrolesmatter"?

As far as tank and healer damage goes, I feel like there should be a happy medium where both should be encourage to do a bit extra damage out of boredom, not because they're required to. That was tried in Gordias Savage, where healers HAD to dps and tanks had to max out their damage, and it went HORRIBLY!! Even Yoshi admitted to this because some jobs just couldn't cut the mustard there.

Yes, DPS are important, but only because enrage timers and impatient morons are things.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Let's remove DPS, aka damage dealers from the game then. This means that you also remove damage from the game, as anything that is able to deal damage is a damage-dealer and we just removed those from the game. Let's see what happens.

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Please don't bend the meaning of the term for the sake of an argument, "DPS" as a role is clearly defined in the genre and this game. And has been for over a decade.

And honestly, Guild Wars 2 already spoke so much on what happens when you remove tanks and healers. If you want a clusterfuck with zero strategy or teamwork, then removing tanks and healers is the way to go.

Agree GW2 shows exactly what happens when you remove the meta. It creates a boring game. And honestly the tank and healer population is actually very good right now compared to other games. Hopefully it stays that way after Stormblood or becomes better. The issue is the lack of tank and healer queuing at random. That's where the population needs to increase

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Originally Posted by Zojha

The real reason is (Harsh Version):

Both Tanks and Healers are artificial roles with no point nor purpose. They are forced into the group via un-avoidable damage and are only ever as useful as they are mandatory. That's also why they end up becoming DPS as soon as Mitigation/Healing requirements are met - They are innately useless. That's also why they need Damage abilities for solo play - Because they are useless at their core. Damage is what matters, all that matters. And people subconsciously pick on, hence they prefer playing DPS.

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False. They are not artificial roles. Both roles emerged due to how players specialized when doing content. The tools used are artificial as new tools have been added as enemy AI has gradually improved to make fighting enemies more enjoyable, but the tank and healer roles are not.

Early on players figured out that having the toughest and hardest to hurt characters take point and block enemies from getting to the weaker characters made killing enemies without being killed easier. These characters, "nicknamed" tanks, gradually specialized more and more in survival because the tougher the enemies and the greater the number they could survive being attacked the greater the rewards the group could get.

Soon after, it was identified that having one or more characters specialize in healing the "tank" allowed groups to take on even greater threats for greater rewards.

Two other roles also gradually appeared after that: Supporters(Buffers/Debuffers) and Mezers/Crowd Controllers.

Soon you had 4 specialized roles that every group needed in addition to the general damage dealer role but the roles were not played in numbers close to how many of each were needed by the player base. Designers started to try and balance the numbers them in various ways. The cost of specializing in tanking (i.e. decrease in damage dealt) was reduced, supporter and mezer abilities were given out at low cost to everyone so specializing was unneeded, and healers were strengthened and given damage abilities so they would be easier to level.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Do you think so?

Let's remove DPS, aka damage dealers from the game then. This means that you also remove damage from the game, as anything that is able to deal damage is a damage-dealer and we just removed those from the game. Let's see what happens.

*crystal ball mode*
Everyone stays at full HP forever. Tanks cannot mitigate any damage since there are no enemy DPS anymore, healers cannot heal anything since there is no damage to undo anymore and aggro doesn't matter because nobody takes damage anyway, as all damage dealers and thus damage has been removed. Since you have no damage either, every enemy is invincible.

Congratulations, you broke the game. Got any more bright ideas?

Wanna know what really forces DPS into the game? Health. Because damage is a means to reduce health. And without damage, both tanks and healers break. Everything irreparably breaks. Damage dealers are a necessity. In contrast, you can remove tanks and healers and only need to adjust a few numbers, because only health and damage matter. Both of these roles exist for no sake but their own. They are superfluous. And because they are superfluous, they are ditched for DPS whenever possible, aka the DPS meta.

It's the cold, harsh truth of the trinity. People crack it up to far more than it really is.

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Wow, that is a ridiculous rant.
There is a point in there, but it soaked in hyperbole and misconstruing terms to make an argument.

The trinity design is simple. Yes, damage is how you finish a fight because of health, while healing and tanking is how you survive so that you can keep doing damage. Both parties have that ever important resource (health) and the enemies goal is to take yours before you take theirs. It's like saying in something like football that the whole back field and referee are pointless because all you need to win is to score enough goals.

Damage is your offense, it's how you finish the fight but without defense, it's meaningless. The only option to remove defense is to make all damage completely avoidable. That's just as broken as a game without real dps.

What you're right about is that defense only needs to matter to the point you can finish the fight through damage. But that's the basis of design. In other games, I've seen people stack healers and tanks when dps checks weren't strict and enemy damage was heavy. That resulted in slower but guaranteed clears because you were basically invincible and the enemy would go down eventually. Slow and steady was popular at the start of this game at times too, but the Meta shifted (as it tends do).

The only reason we have a dps meta is because encounters aren't that taxing on healing and tanking. Also both kits lack the intricacy of mechanics that dps have which is one of the actual reasons they're unpopular. WAR is kind of the exception since it has a more active mitigation kit.

Lastly, I'd jump on the bandwagon of looking at GW2's lack of roles to show how mindless only dps combat is. Even they backed out of that design pretty quick.

It doesn't need to be Tank-Healer-DD, but team based combat should have some role based tactics. This game chose the tried-and-true Trinity that's pretty safe, so we just need to work with that.

OP is clearly one of many players I find in the DF and thinks being a DPS holds no responsibility to the rest of the party other than doing half ass DPS and contributing minimally in all other aspects. Good to know

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

OP is clearly one of many players I find in the DF and thinks being a DPS holds no responsibility to the rest of the party other than doing half ass DPS and contributing minimally in all other aspects. Good to know

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Wait, DPS have responsibility? When did that happen?

Guys, you know that OP is being ironic, right? You see people get on tanks/healers for every little mistake, but how often does anyone say anything to the BLM farting around with Ice/Thunder, or the BRD just using Straight Shot? They say healer needs to DPS more (keep in mind, usually healer is already DPSing), or tank should stance dance. Just... why does no one say, "no, DD needs to get off their butt and do their job."

You gotta realize that a lot of content can be done without any DDs at all, because tanks and healers are learning to push numbers that a lot of DDs are too lazy to even get close to. My LS often does lvl60 EX farms with 2 healers, 4 tanks and 2 DPS (sometimes only one DD, purely for the LB lol).

Dunno, it's a silly and old argument, but it's relevant. I know a lot of great tanks and healers, and they aren't queuing for randoms anymore 'cause they're tired of the BS, or they're anxious they're gonna get yelled at (again) for a mistake. It's just kinda depressing.

Sarcasm is lost on most.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

Guys, you know that OP is being ironic, right? You see people get on tanks/healers for every little mistake, but how often does anyone say anything to the BLM farting around with Ice/Thunder, or the BRD just using Straight Shot? They say healer needs to DPS more (keep in mind, usually healer is already DPSing), or tank should stance dance. Just... why does no one say, "no, DD needs to get off

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I really have been thinking about doing a similar party for zurvan even 5 dps cant even get zur past soar its very annoying, I dont claim to be an expert dps or anything but if I play a dps job im gona look up a rotation so many players just literally press buttons that at this point on some stuff it might be better to leave the dps out.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I really have been thinking about doing a similar party for zurvan even 5 dps cant even get zur past soar its very annoying, I dont claim to be an expert dps or anything but if I play a dps job im gona look up a rotation so many players just literally press buttons that at this point on some stuff it might be better to leave the dps out.

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ikr? Sure maybe the stacked tank/healer parties go a little slower (I swear not by much. :/ You know in pug groups our PLD can make top 3 DPS? Ridiculous. She doesn't even have STR melds yet), but with tanks being able to mitigate what hits they do take and extra healers meaning there's less concern about falling behind on healing when someone goes full DPS mode, it can go a lot smoother than getting stuck with lazy DDs to carry lol. Not sure if you could ever skip soar, but when you stack DPS and still can't manage, what difference does it make? XD

Of course, keep in mind we don't intentionally leave DDs out when we make a preformed party from the LS, haha. It's just we have an overabundance of tanks, so we make it work. :3

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

could be bad tanks and awful healers, could be anything. DPS leaving a 24 man is usually highly the fact they got their drop finally and said f it.

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I have no idea what you're talking about with this. Couple of linkshell peeps grouped up, tank, healer and DPS. For at least 10 minutes the queue read 3/3 Tank 6/6 Healer and 6/15 DPS. I've seen this happen just about everytime we queue for 24 man stuff. It wasn't a group in progress and no one was kicked.

The ratios don't match up across content. In 4-8 mans its 1:1:2, in 24 its 1:2:5. So you get a quick queue leveling and gearing a tank. But not so much afterwards. And I just checked the statics again, they're all looking for BRD/MCH/AST. I have yet to see one looking for PLD, WAR, or DRK.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

Of course, keep in mind we don't intentionally leave DDs out when we make a preformed party from the LS, haha. It's just we have an overabundance of tanks, so we make it work. :3

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For some odd reason, people don't believe there's that many tanks. They hit the roulette and see 0/1, 1/1, 2/2 and think no one plays tanks. They don't realize the tanks are already 60, already 260+ geared. And have nothing to do. Hell in my personal group of friends, minus online (meaning all RL friends of decades) half of them play a tank. Which is way more than we need too.

The ratio of non-endgame stuff is skewed against damage dealers. There's three tank classes, three healer classes, and Seven DPS classes. If population was even among classes, then a DPS queue ideally would be 40-45 minutes. That's... madness.

To top it off, Tanks play a little too similarly to one another. Sure its the same with MNK/DRG/NIN, but then you can play a BRD/MCH, or a BLM/SMN to switch it up. Three types of DPS that are very distinct. Tanks not so much. Healers.. a little better off than tanks.

What they should consider doing is flex the DF queues. When DPS for a specific duty get to waiting too long (only for PUGs, cannot premake a party more than 4 as normal). Flex it out to include up to 1-4 more DPS (up to 8 man) to speed things along. Adjust HP by the same margin of the mobs to balance things out (with a little extra). Sure things might get easier. But lets be honest. Expert/60/50/Level Roulette is pretty easy already. Its pull to boss, AOE, kill boss and then repeat till duty is done. if that isn't going to be fixed then at least let the DPS have a shorter queue for it.

This will allow more DPS to hit endgame more quickly and more DPS means we need more tanks. Fixing the overabundance of tanks there. Reducing the need for the flex as often.

I think the real reason you see much more DPS jobs than Tanks or Healers is because of the perceived responsibility is lower from a macro point of view. A lot of gamers will often choose a default class or the most normal class and play at a normal difficulty when playing a new game. They do this to figure out the game a bit and then go back and restart with a harder class and/or increase the difficulty.

This is the same for MMOs as most new people will choose DPS by default because without knowing anything about the game, they assume that all they do is deal damage. Once they really dive into the game they realize that a DPS job has a LOT of responsibilities and expectations of doing a ton of damage. Once they've invested the time into their job, they probably just stick to it for the most part.

The gamers who start with a Tank or Healer are the same types of people who play with an alchemy build for Witcher, or go with melee build for Fallout, and on and on because they like the challenge up front as they are learning about the game.

As I main a SMN one of my common duties that isn't in your DPS list is to rez the healers and tanks. Throw Eye for an Eye in there while your a it.

As to why folks don't seem to play tank or healer compared to DPS there are multiple reasons. I think a big one is when things go wrong tanks and healers frequently feel the brunt of the complaints and that doesn't appeal to a lot of folks. It is also easier for a new player to relate to doing damage than tanking or healing. Once they have time invested in that path many see little reason to change and have to invest that time all over again doing something different. Instead they'll see investing that time in something like crafting or gathering as a better use of their time. Of course everyone is different but I think these two reasons cover quite a bit of the player population.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I have no idea what you're talking about with this. Couple of linkshell peeps grouped up, tank, healer and DPS. For at least 10 minutes the queue read 3/3 Tank 6/6 Healer and 6/15 DPS. I've seen this happen just about everytime we queue for 24 man stuff. It wasn't a group in progress and no one was kicked.

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The Tank surplus in raiding could be due to Tanks being under representative in a raid group.

I will use math to help me try to make my point.

• For a DR Leveling Party, you have: 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 2 DPS (or 25% Tank, 25% Healer, 50% DPS make up the party)
• For a Raid Party, you have: 3 Tanks, 6 Healers, and 15 DPS (or 12.5% Tank, 25% Healer, and 62.5% DPS make up the party)
• According to the 2016 census, the population maining roles are the following: 21% Tank, 23% Healer, 56% DPS

Now, we are going to use the census with the following scenario:

1. We will have 100 people who each person will represent a role based on the census (so 21 Tanks, 23 Healers, and 56 DPS)
2. These 100 people are static: there is no change in the total number of people and no change in the number of people playing roles (assume no one can change roles)

If we put the 100 people in DR Leveling, by the time the 22nd party is being created, we are already at the tank shortage (party #21 had the last tank). That means both healers and DPS will have to wait for a tank to come out of a dungeon in order to fix the shortage. By the time DPS#56 joins a party, all tanks did at least two dungeon runs. People will complain there is a shortage of tanks.

If we put the 100 people in Raid: by the time you are creating Raid party#4, you only have 11 DPS available for that Raid. You will be short 4 DPS. By the time Tank#21 gets to join a raid (should be Raid#7), all of those DPS that joined that specific raid did one raid already. People will state there is a surplus of tanks.

There is a both shortage and surplus of tanks… though what they are shorting and over-supplying is based on the event.

So… in a way you and the OP are both correct.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

The ratios don't match up across content. In 4-8 mans its 1:1:2, in 24 its 1:2:5. So you get a quick queue leveling and gearing a tank. But not so much afterwards. And I just checked the statics again, they're all looking for BRD/MCH/AST. I have yet to see one looking for PLD, WAR, or DRK.

For some odd reason, people don't believe there's that many tanks. They hit the roulette and see 0/1, 1/1, 2/2 and think no one plays tanks. They don't realize the tanks are already 60, already 260+ geared. And have nothing to do. Hell in my personal group of friends, minus online (meaning all RL friends of decades) half of them play a tank. Which is way more than we need too.

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I'd like to add to this.

Honestly it's the same situation for healers at endgame, it just isn't as obvious.

One of the reasons I think we don't see as many DPS in endgame raids is because they figure out just how difficult it is to play these jobs and live up the standards that raid groups hold. I used to play BLM back when Gordias was a thing. Guess what? I dropped it because I realized there was no way in hell I'd be able to play BLM in Gordias no matter how much I tried. I'm much more useful as a healer or a tank when I raid. Almost every PF that was recruiting for a raid was looking for, you guessed it, DPS jobs. Every time my current group has had to cancel due to a shortage of players was because of, you guessed it again, not enough people on DPS. We can easily get another tank or healer to sub, but a DPS? That's like pulling teeth. And it's not because of missing like three, we're lucky if ONE steps up.

There's plenty of MCH's and BRD's. They just don't live up to the standards that raid groups hold in order to be recruited. And you know what? That's understandable because for these raids you need to be able to meet a certain standard in order to complete it. Raid groups aren't going to want to take just anybody, nor should they be expected to.

Now another reason why raid groups typically aren't looking for tanks is because the people who generally start and lead these groups are, you guessed it, tanks. There's a reason the stereotype of tanks being the leaders of the party exists. Almost every raid leader I've met has been a tank. They typically guided the team through the encounter with call outs and the like. The healers were typically their SO or close friends, along with the other tank while the DPS were either close friends mixed with people that were recruited and needed to show their worth. If they were unable to do that then they were kicked and the group went right back into PF.

In fact my own group just replaced someone. Can you guess which role it was?

Part of the issue is less about tanks and healers in total, but about getting them into DF.

I'm a tank main, and I HATE Duty Finder. I'd stop using it completely if roulettes weren't so good for rewards. I know lots of tanks in the same boat.

Why is it so bad? Personally, I'm sick of carrying the living garbage DF gives out as "teammates". Tanking is not fun when you're top DPS. Tanking is not fun when your healer is AFK.

Tanking is fun when the group is behind you, and you're powering through. Tanking is fun when you can pull a billion mobs, pop HG, and watch the nuclear explosion of AoE's hit home.

Tanking is fun, DF is anti-fun.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Part of the issue is less about tanks and healers in total, but about getting them into DF.

I'm a tank main, and I HATE Duty Finder. I'd stop using it completely if roulettes weren't so good for rewards. I know lots of tanks in the same boat.

Why is it so bad? Personally, I'm sick of carrying the living garbage DF gives out as "teammates". Tanking is not fun when you're top DPS. Tanking is not fun when your healer is AFK.

Tanking is fun when the group is behind you, and you're powering through. Tanking is fun when you can pull a billion mobs, pop HG, and watch the nuclear explosion of AoE's hit home.

Tanking is fun, DF is anti-fun.

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I think this applies to every job for DF. DPS isn't fun if the tank is constantly losing aggro or the team isn't performing, healing isn't fun when the team isn't performing etc etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I have no idea what you're talking about with this. Couple of linkshell peeps grouped up, tank, healer and DPS. For at least 10 minutes the queue read 3/3 Tank 6/6 Healer and 6/15 DPS. I've seen this happen just about everytime we queue for 24 man stuff. It wasn't a group in progress and no one was kicked.
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maybe i shouldve asked WHAT 24 man were you signed up for instead I assumed Dun Scath, but now im worndering if its something way obsolete.

Personal opinion: we have more DPS classes to choice from than Tank/Healer's so the chance someone finds a class they enjoy playing being a DPS is higher than normal. Also as far as I'm concerned things like arrgo-managment, Mechanic's, Dodging AoE's & trying to do u'r rotations is something all 3 of the triad gota do just Tanks "Have-to" have higher priority on arrgo & healer's "Have-to" keep the team at managable levels (whatever their "personal" version of that is, it could be 75% or maybe 110%, especially if the healer "wants" & "can" help with dmg)

Do I expect Top end-game, current patch level, Savage skills all the time, if in gear from said stuff or not... No f'n way but I do exspect the team I ended up with to try as best they can, if they can as some days life can get rough... if u go into everything like youre King-Lord Starscream u'll probably just end up... well Like Starscream, guy's his own worst enemy

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Originally Posted by ZioSerpe

I'm sorry but I disagree. As a tank main (been one for 12 years between WoW, FF) I will always live by the concept that there's nothing easier thank tanking. We do least mechanics and usually they are set in stone and we hardly have to adjust. People perceive tanking as wrong and it makes them scared of trying, but really is a job that takes less time to master and has to deal with less variables...
On the other hand healers, holy fuck, I don't know how you do it, having to do your part and account for everyone else shortcoming, you will always have my praise

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For me it's actually the other way around. Prior to FFXIV, I’ve only played dps and support roles, but no real healer and I wouldn't touch a tank class with a ten-foot pole.

But, it’s thanks to my FC and Coil that I had my first real experience with tanking. It was a long and difficult road for me. Up to this day, i still say that tanking is the hardest job to do properly. I have to watch for tank busters and large trash pulls so that i can manage my cooldowns accordingly throughout the entire encounter, handle mechanics properly to avoid unnecessary damage to myself and my party members (as in not pointing the boss towards the group while dodging aoe’s ), deal as much damage as I can, while maintaining hate. This can be quite the task, as well as hectic on multiple occasions.

Then we have 3 different tanks in the game. Each with their own specific play style. I’ve tried playing as a Warrior, but I fail at playing it properly. I just can't get the hang of it. The Paladin is a lot more straight forward, which suits my playstyle. The dark Knight sits somewhere in the middle.

I’ve put in a lot of effort to learn how to tank and after 3 ½ years, I’m proficient enough with my Paladin to feel confident with any type of content.

When it comes to healing, it feels more like a game of “whack-a-mole”. You select the party member that requires healing and try topping them off. Placing buffs and a regen / shield on the party. Avoid getting hit by avoidable damage and DPS whenever I don't have to heal.

I’m not saying that it was an easy road to master it, but it feels a hell of a lot easier than tanking. With tanking, i have to continually pay attention at several things at the same time (I’m the raid caller from the static too). However as a healer, i have more time to think and act. So, if i want to relax, I’ll play as my white mage.

21% of those tanks are not for certain either. Same goes with healer. I am sure there are plenty of those who avoid DF at all cost. Then there are many people who avoid running leveling roulette or anything under lvl 60.

There are multiple factors that lead to a shortage or a surplus. Example when I have a 20+ minute wait time on Dun Scaith as a tank. But as a DPS its a 5 minute queue.

I think as long as tanks and healer stay above 20% then we are fine. The moment it drops below that is when SE has to make some moves.