Got kicked from The Aetherochemical Research Facility by mentor

So can we go ahead and set up some sort of petition to get a thing to get rid of bad mentors? It's time. People need to be afraid of losing their mentor status if they're undeserving .

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Seems as if we have slightly different views about what "social" means - for me that means communication and being vocal about things, not trying my hardest to please some random people in a dungeon...

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Just using your message as a reference what I'm going to say.

People should try and do their best job and not just slack off, but why should anyone try to bend over backwards to please some smuck (the mentor think they all pro) in DF that might not ever see again? Did people learn not learn how to split the difference and compromise? Something like ok you want smaller pulls but could you pull more then 3 mobs?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Dont wanna be rude, but you dont sound like the person I would want in MY runs to take special care of?"

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You are not being rude, it just how Watachy makes people feel xD

More seriously, a lot of mentors only do it for the mount, don't worry, being new is not a crime :D

The wording suggests the tank did not communicate at all in that first run. The second run sounds like crappy people aside from waiting until the first boss to say you're new, especially as a tank, but if you didn't say anything at all in that first run despite party members attempting to communicate with you, then I feel like the onus was on you to at least explain yourself, otherwise you just come across as unwilling to listen/communicate.

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Originally Posted by Aamalthea

So can we go ahead and set up some sort of petition to get a thing to get rid of bad mentors? It's time. People need to be afraid of losing their mentor status if they're undeserving .

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Not really because people think mentors are some sort of crutch to stop them using their own initiative to find out info. Pre HW/leaf status then yes mentors should help out and give info. After 60/status gone then it is on you as a player to find out info yourself, be it from guides, friends FC. Mentors are their to help out novice's/returning players.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I think you have forgotten what it means to be new in a dungeon as a fresh level 60 character... We're used to speedrunning and masspulling everything by now, yes - but do you really believe thats something someone has to learn during their FIRST attempt in their FIRST level 60 dungeon when they want to finish the story? Cut that guy some slack, most of us prefer faster runs, but thats what the bonus is for - you take 5 minutes longer, you get 50 extra-tomes. Seems pretty fair to me. Learning how to masspull will happen soon enough - when they're more familiar with the dungeon, all skills of their class (including the level 60 one they most likely just got...) and with better gear.

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Nope that is a poor excuse you start speed running/mass pulling large packs at 50. Like I said though it is on the healer if they can cope or not. Although if the tank said "would you mind if I gradually increase my pull size as we went through". This way at least I would see they are trying and would be prepared for any errors.

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Originally Posted by Celef

You are not being rude, it just how Watachy makes people feel xD

More seriously, a lot of mentors only do it for the mount, don't worry, being new is not a crime :D

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Wait, I can get a mount for being a mentor? I just signed up to help people. I didn't realize there were rewards aside from Mentor Roulette.

Not every mentor you get in an instance comes from mentor roulette.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Not really because people think mentors are some sort of crutch to stop them using their own initiative to find out info. Pre HW/leaf status then yes mentors should help out and give info. After 60/status gone then it is on you as a player to find out info yourself, be it from guides, friends FC. Mentors are their to help out novice's/returning players.

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Not necessarily. Things change at 60. It takes a bit to get used to. Just because you're god of all things, doesn't mean someone else is. Mentors need to help REGARDLESS. If you want to be rude, don't mentor.

Who kicks new people from ARF of all places? That's just cruel!

I mean, you load into ARF, you bite the bullet of The Small Pull Tank and complain about it in fc/ls at absolute worst. I'll only kick people if they're being intentionally lazy or physically can't do their job to the detriment of the run. I remember when I first tanked ARF and I was a godawful tank, and I pulled one pack at a time and I'm surprised the one dps that wasn't part of my preformed party didn't leave in frustration, I mean I was only in i150 whites at the time and everything.

While I, personally, do believe in going into a new dungeon and pulling literally everything until either death or a wall stop me, I also remember when I was new to lv60 tanking and wasn't as confident and pulled small while I was getting a feel for things. People who started after HW was released really don't get a lot of time at lv50 or in lv50 dungeons to get a feel for it, it's only as you move through HW lv60s that you get into your stride. At least that was my experience, picking up a tank as I ramped up to HW, levelling it primarily through that story, and only really learning how to actually tank to the best of my abilities at like, Antitower, maybe.

(On the other hand, while getting a feel for it, I also opened up with "hi, first time here" or "first time tanking this" if it was a dungeon I'd done previously only on sch. People will either be understanding and offer tips, or the jerks will leave or kick you before you have too much time to get your hopes up. It's a long and tough road, being a tank.)

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Originally Posted by Isala

Does bear one question here. How do you wipe to the first boss? I could see the third getting people because of the AoE spam, or maybe the second because some people haven't done Coil. The first boss is pretty much a tank and spank with a slight add check.To kick a tank when it's the job of the DPS to nuke said adds? Something seems off.

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If you're still curious how people wipe on this it happens when people decide they're super awesome DPS and don't kill the adds. If anybody got clipped by an aoe when the double self destruct happens people die.

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Originally Posted by Kragon

Thank you for the support. I never got kicked before in dungeon or trials. This was the first time I got kicked so it was a bit surprising and depressing at the same time.

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The most important lesson to take in this as there are players that offer advice, are friendly, and make great party members; there are also players who are rude, disrespectful, and selfish.

It does suck but this is an MMO and we have to take the good with the bad. Just keep your head up, take a small break if you need to in order to collect yourself and continue to have fun! :)

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Spamming domination/shadows is a big deal ? :rolleyes:

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As a Lv.60 Fresh Tank you probably sit on iLv.142-145, pulling the entire first Trash Groups until the Barrier comes up even hurts a Tank being synced down to iLv.180.

Using no Defensive Cooldowns at that Point, well, ya, good luck as a Healer, you can't contribute to AoE Damage that Trash Group down.

One who has done the Relic in HW, espescially the 240 Umbrite / Sand Step should know, that enabling Cleric Stance as a Healer can cause havoc on the entire first Pull in ARF...
If not, totally destroying the Tank in a matter of 4-5 Seconds...

Another one of these topics. Just going to point out it takes two for the kick to go through, so at least one other person agreed in your dismissal. A difference in playstyle is apparently an acceptable reason to kick according to SE, so just cut your losses and move on.

And I'm not sure where or when FFXIV got its award as "The MMO with the nicest players," but it's just as prone to jerks as any other.

Welcome to the internet.

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If not, totally destroying the Tank in a matter of 4-5 Seconds...

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Just enough time for a Swiftcast > Cleric > Gravity > Cleric > Essential dignity on tank :P

I'm torn on these threads. On one side, it's great to see our community rally behind a new player and support them, on the other it creates this weird mob mentality that X is bad, Y is good. I hate to be that guy, but we only know one side of the story: the OP. It is so easy to spin a story to make it seem like you were completely in the right, but unless there are screenshots or a video.... were you? Were you communicating with your group, did you tell your first group you wanted to pull slow, or did they ask and you didn't respond? You said your second group didn't tell you mechanics and kicked you after the wipe... what? What happened in between? I don't want to sound like an apologist, I just have a hard time getting behind anything without any evidence.

It's a little too easy for people to get voted out of duties. Light parties should need 3/3 votes and full take 5/7. I feel like it'd be a bit less common to see stories like this.

Unfortunately as probably many have already said the aetherial research facility drops a lot of lore tombs which you need tons of when doing the anima relic so ppl like to speed run that one.

A good portion of 'mentors' only became one for various or multiple reasons, they either wanted the status symbol of the crown or the mounts or because they believe they're better than everyone else. The real mentors do tend to not stick out like the bad ones do and a bunch of them like myself have their crowns turned off because of a few reasons like they don't like to stick out with it or newer players shy away from them due to bad experiences with 'mentors'

If you ever have trouble like you had with this dungeon again I would try putting up a party finder and mention that you're a first timer and that there'll be a bonus and ppl will join to help you clear it.

Sad when you read things like this and shows why this community struggles to get enough tanks and why the mentor system is so discredited.
To Kragon, don't get dishearten, normally people are quite understanding to new players most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Kragon

This dungeon is mandatory to complete the heavensward MSQ so I queued for it. First time doing this dungeon. During the dungeon run a mentor told 'pull all'. But I took it slow and steady. He repeatedly spam 'pull all' and then when we reach the first boss the mentor told 'I don't want to be rude but...' and then I got kicked from the dungeon. So I queued for a second time. Luckily I am a tank so I got instant group. This time the run went ok and then when we reach the first boss I said 'I am new to this dungeon... any tactics for this boss?' but nobody said anything including the mentor dragoon. I pulled the boss and sadly we wiped and then I got vote kicked again.

I was very depressed by all these. I thought the FFXIV community are friendly people. I gave one last try and queued again. Surprisingly this time the run went very smoothly and the group was very friendly.

But all these left a very bad taste in my mouth. Is being a new player in mmorpgs a crime nowadays?

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They wouldn't have had to vote kick me, I'd have dropped right then and taken the penalty. Any time I'm running a new dungeon and especially if I'm at min gear level, I'll take my time to see how badly the mobs hit and how well the healer can keep up. This usually starts out as: pull first small group, burn - ok; how'd that go? Pull 2 groups on the next pull; still good? Ok, let's see how speed run full-mob pull looks - ... ooooh shiiiiit! pls god no! If things are looking good, healer's doing a good job; mobs aren't hitting that hard I'll pull a lot more - but any time it's a new dungeon (or new to me), I have to gauge how much I can pull without causing a wipe.


Unfortunately, the player base has been deteriorating since before HW came out and you're getting a ton of entitled players that only think "me first" and don't even care to look at what the other people are wearing or care if you're new.

This is why DPS ques are so long. Sadly they never seem to learn.

While it sucks you were kicked, you may have wanted to listen to the mentor there and did larger pulls. I understand new places can be scary, especially as a tank and a newly geared one at that, but have some trust and faith in your party and mentors to see you through it alive!

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Originally Posted by Canadane

While it sucks you were kicked, you may have wanted to listen to the mentor there and did larger pulls. I understand new places can be scary, especially as a tank and a newly geared one at that, but have some trust and faith in your party and mentors to see you through it alive!

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Not sure anyone should trust someone who's idea of mentoring is just to spam "pull all"

Yeah, something tells me the mentor yelling at OP was doing so out of impatience and not because they carefully calculated their gear and the healer's and made an experienced judgement. Usually those who do would be able to reassure the tank and apply some positive reinforcement, not spam "pull all".

On the flip side of that I was the sole mentor in an Aery the other day while I was leveling my WAR.

Now I'm not a great tank at the best of times, but I'm working on leveling all my jobs to 60 before the expansion and it's on the list. I actually like PLD and DRK a lot better than WAR. I'm a lot more comfortable with those than WAR... but it's on the list, so we press forward.

So I queue up for The Aery and we start. As is standard procedure for leveling dungeons I'm pulling cautiously, both because I can never be sure of the capabilities of my healer and I'm not super confident in my ability to handle multiple packs on WAR (on PLD no problem... for days... on WAR, no, I am hyper squish). On the second pack the BRD pulls the next pack. We deal with that (though I did almost die) and I ask him in party chat not to do that again.

Guess how well that works out.

After the first boss you drop down that shaft. There's a pack down there, I pull it.. then the WHM goes forward and pulls the next pack of dragonets. Because it's the WHM, I pick them up. Then I stop and repeat that this is not a good idea and that I need to be the only one pulling things.

WHM: "we'll tank it if you won't"

I actually considered just standing there and not continuing the dungeon at this point, but I had my crown on and acting like some kind of brat (despite that's exactly what they were doing to me) seemed out of place for a mentor. So I continued with the dungeon, pulling one pack at a time. When they'd pull an extra pack I'd just pretend not to notice. I won't turn this dungeon around but like hell am I tanking their nonsense.

So it really does go both ways. Mentors are getting a lot of crap right now and people forget that they're members of the same community. Are there people who probably shouldn't have the crown? Yeah. Supposedly there's a reporting process for un-mentoring someone who's unsuitable. But there are d-bags everywhere. Crowned and uncrowned.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

Im sorry, but the whole "im new to tanking this dungeon" is no excuse for pulling one group at a time ever. A level 60 tank should have developed these "mass pulling" habits sometime between tanking 2.0-3.0.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

I sort of disagree trash mobs are trash mobs, at 60 you should be used to doing fast/decent sized pulls.

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The problem with this sentiment is that, if things were actually meant/designed for mass pulling, they'd all just be grouped together to begin with. Big pulls is great, sure, more efficient, etc, etc, but every player is entirely free to play to their own style, and it's a bit of a dick move to expect/force players not comfortable with that to just suck it up to please (the collective) you. Can you really not see how toxic it is to say, "This is how we expect everyone to play the game at this point; get good or get out."?

Spamming "pull all" accomplishes nothing. Maybe the mentor could've accomplished more by actually encouraging and educating to that end. Be positive about it and you might actually get a new mass pull tank. Be a little htcib like OP mentor, and you could very well end up with one less tank in the game.

What sucks is that people can kick you just because your 'playstyle' might be slower than what they demand. If anything you could have reported them for spamming 'pull all' as well as trying to force their playstyle on you.

I've been tanking for a long while, since 2.0-2.1 and when I'm new to any place, I always do slow pulls because I don't know what's there. I feel safe if I do it with 1-2 friends, since many of them have a healer at 60 and are willing to back me up when I'm uncomfortable (Thanks again you guys~).

Hell what's really bad is the fact that they weren't even trying to ask if you wanted any tips/heads up on the dungeon. What's the damn point of anyone unlocking the mentor symbol if they do nothing to help people learn the game.

Let someone warm up to a dungeon before forcing your BS 'GOTA GO FAST' mentality on others.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Nope that is a poor excuse you start speed running/mass pulling large packs at 50. Like I said though it is on the healer if they can cope or not. Although if the tank said "would you mind if I gradually increase my pull size as we went through". This way at least I would see they are trying and would be prepared for any errors.

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Why would you start speed running any dungeon when you don't know where it's safe to stop?

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Just enough time for a Swiftcast > Cleric > Gravity > Cleric > Essential dignity on tank :P

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Cleric's has a 5 second cooldown. It doesn't matter if you've got swiftcast running to instantly cast gravity. You're still stuck in clerics for roughly two GCD.

As a mentor myself I'm sorry this took place this iratates me i feel we should be held a countable for our actions more so then normal players for this verry reason being a mentor should not be some sort of status symbol it should be reserved to those that actualy help others again I'm sorry this happend to you but sadly the prerequisites to being a mentor are pretty simple to acomplished that and there's a mount locked behind the system so that means people just do it for that and don't do anything to help the new players

One has to firstly understand how easily they made it for players to get Mentor status, many are unfit to be Mentors and not all but some just use the status for their own advantages.
I think SE tried to implement it with good intentions but like everything else, there are always people that ruin it for others.
Do not let it discourage you OP, just practice and find a good group of friends, people can be jerks in game.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

The problem with this sentiment is that, if things were actually meant/designed for mass pulling, they'd all just be grouped together to begin with. Big pulls is great, sure, more efficient, etc, etc, but every player is entirely free to play to their own style, and it's a bit of a dick move to expect/force players not comfortable with that to just suck it up to please (the collective) you. Can you really not see how toxic it is to say, "This is how we expect everyone to play the game at this point; get good or get out."?

Spamming "pull all" accomplishes nothing. Maybe the mentor could've accomplished more by actually encouraging and educating to that end. Be positive about it and you might actually get a new mass pull tank. Be a little htcib like OP mentor, and you could very well end up with one less tank in the game.

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I think it's fairly obvious that monsters are spread to accommodate the least experienced players who struggle to fulfill their role. There has been a shift to pull more monsters because the playerbase has figured that there is a better/faster way to complete the dungeon, who push themselves and excel in their individual roles. This means everyone uses their CDs effectively to both live through large pulls as they are being killed quickly with AoE damage.

If certain players are not as well-accustomed to their roles and the rest of party would like to finish the dungeon quickly, it is completely fine to dismiss an underperforming member in favor of one who is able to play through regular dungeon content. This is a playstyle difference and dismissing someone under this pretense is completely legitimate.

Everyone is free to play their own style, but remember, you're in a party of other people, majority rules. Please stop villainizing superior play.

I'm very sorry for that bad taste of experience, but the damage is done an is time to patch it.
Try to find a mentor, not even that but a person that main your class to teach you an make you a better tank, you be surprise the amount of people that will love to teach rotations, strategies how to pull an use your CDs.
Not sure if I can get with you in cross server PF, I'll be happy to go a few runs an teach you how to be an agresive tank, you will get lot of commendation.
All you need is practice an the confidence.
An like the trailer of God of war:
Don't be sorry, be better.

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Originally Posted by Nirokun

Everyone is free to play their own style, but remember, you're in a party of other people, majority rules. Please stop villainizing superior play.

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As soon as you stop villainizing relaxing play? Lol. There's even that word there, "play," that suggests we don't have to dedicate every ounce of effort to the cause.
I mean, this argument won't get anyone anywhere, obviously, but again, there is this sentiment that you are literally saying "You're not good enough to play this game, get lost."

Might be worth asking, which mentality makes for a more toxic game? The players that just want to play, or the players that feel like they have to be pro and anyone not living up to their expectations isn't worth their time?

Does fun even factor into your considerations at all when playing? Or do you really just expect every run of every dungeon/raid/trial to run exactly the same, as long as everyone is performing at the level you want? The whole "different playstyle" argument is really kinda weak when you consider the end result is elitism and the removal of all variety and anything deemed different. What's even the point of playing the game at that stage? Just becomes mindless repetition.

Remember, you're in a party of people, and people come in all types. Isolate yourself if you want, yo, but isn't the whole point of MMO community play? Communities are a mixed bag.

Also worth mentioning I'm not trying to seem like I'm picking on you or anything. I just like being argumentative.

Relax OP, even if you pull them all, there could be a case that you might not be able to hold enmity or the healer couldn't heal you back and it could cause a wipe, then you would have been kick anyway.

Either you pull all or not, you would have been kicked if you were group with this kind of people.

It's not only happen with mentor though, it just happened to be that player is a mentor. I felt bad for you OP.

OP - you were completely in the right & should pay little attention to those who say "well just do as you're told & pull more". Why? Because you're the one who knows your abilities the best so know if you can hold hate & control the multiple mobs in this particular situation. People also forget that they may be sitting at i260 (synced to i180) whilst you could easily be at i145 - that makes a big difference when it comes to holding hate.

Personally, as a healer, I've seen disasters in ARF when tanks pull too large simply because of the sync issue, my heals can struggle to keep up with damage from huge pulls, especially if the tank loses hate to an overzealous DPS who doesn't pay attention. I've actually started to warn people at the start of the dungeon "Remember, this is synced & my heals are nowhere near as strong as in endgame" because tanks are sometimes expecting a regular 3k+ Physick when they might only get <1k.

OP, did you get the dungeon done yet? I'm on the same data center with you, so if you still need it and put a cross-server party finder up for it, I can join as a healer. :)

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Originally Posted by Kragon

But all these left a very bad taste in my mouth. Is being a new player in mmorpgs a crime nowadays?

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it is not hard to become and mentor, and there are no psychological selection for mentor
in your case, you just met some "@ss"
tank is the one control the pace, and i respect his/her choice
in DF with 3 total strangers, i dont mind anything, it is all about the comfort of tank and heal
and I would say the so call mentor you met, is no more than just an "@ss" want a crown next to his/her name, and by his/her action, his/her mentor should be stripe

btw and trust me, the community is no where better in most case
those mentality are like virus outbreak

big or small pull all depend on Tank gear and healer gear
like earlier i was doing 5X in DF, the tank literally pull everything he can, and i have to spam Cure II to keep up with is lose, which drain my Mana to almost 20% at every pull and he give me no time to regen my Mana

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Originally Posted by Nirokun

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Dismissing a player for completely neglecting their role is reasonable. I've seen players who don't pay attention and either only auto-attack or, if healer, let someone die.

But dismissing someone new because they're not pulling as big as you'd like is unfair. This is someone who is playing this dungeon for the first time. It's understandable that the person is apprehensive. Tank isn't the role that can afford to mess up, so it's clear why the player would want to play safe.

If you want to farm lore, do it with party finder or fc mates. Otherwise, be patient and enjoy your bonus.

As for the OP, keep practicing. The more practice and the more times you run it, you'll get a better feel for just how much you can pull.

And it's not about villainizing superior play. It's about villainizing impatience and the unfair demand placed on a new tank still trying to figure out the dungeon.

most people who you see whit the mentor crown aren't trully mentors, they should be teaching new players, but they don't, they should be helpfull, but they are (censored), never expect anything from them, and if you see a mentor what do what they should do, they are worth of a comend, since they are true mentors

Everyone in such a rush to beat content now a days. Do it my way or get out. If your in such a rush why you doing duty finder. Get a party and rush away. Role should be able to enjoy duty finder at there own paste. Just like I see people get mad when someone watching a cut scene. Sometimes I just don't understand how people think. I just go with the tanks pase. If he pulls big or small I just go with the flow. If I ever get to the point to where I need to rush through something I will just get a group and do it, not use duty finder.