Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

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Originally Posted by Sylve

In a random 4 man duty, expecting people to play as if they're facing a Savage Raid Boss is just arrogant.

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Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

If the party doesn't like the way someone is playing and feel that it's a detriment to their playstyle then I've heard they have every right to remove that person.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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Then my Paladin will just Flash spam. I mean, I'm just there to keep hate, right?! I'm sure between us and the dps 1-2-3'ing we can get the dungeon completed with a couple of minutes left. There's no requirement for the DPS to do anything more than press one button that does damage going by your method of play. They're still doing damage after all.

"everyone has to work harder because I can't be bothered to use any of the DPS abilities they gave me" = kick

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Do you mean to say that a member of a sports team in a position that didn't get much or any action, such as the goalkeep on a soccer team that managed to prevent the opposition from getting into range to try for a goal is inherently bad at soccer because he didn't get to the ball?

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Seems you really like strawmans. :D

No, i mean the forward player, who always loses the ball right away or kicks it accidently up to the stands or a basketball-player who never had a succesfull pass and never hit the basket, while also traveling a lot. You know... like a "bad" player.
A keeper which refuses to shoot a the opponents goal, even if he has in some kind of way the perfect opportunity to do that... is "bad", respectively his action. How many "bad" actions do you need to call someone "bad" at something?


We're talking about ilvl 260+ players who just don't want to heal. Not "I'm to inexperienced" or "I'm undergeared" or anything like that. And this is why they are called "bad".

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Wow, raiding must have gotten easy, I didn't know that putting up regen, and then dpsing, then the occasional cure (or hell SCH has rouse to make them a psudo SMN) is the equivilent to raid level play. I'll put this out there, I am not a raid healer, nor am I a particularly good healer, but DPSing as a healer is not hard. Read your tooltips and learn how to get downtime, because there is a lot of it if you play the way you are supposed to.

What is arrogant is thinking you hold the high ground with an "I play how I want" attitude when there are three other people who have to work harder because you won't.

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./sigh
My first post. Which clearly hasn't been read properly. Funnily enough, the attitude i have towards healing is strikingly similar to those who keep trying to portray me as having the "I REFUSE TO DPS WHILE HEALING" attitude.
Maybe people should actually read more than the first lines of a post.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Personally, I spend the entire run frantically spamming every heal in my arsenal in a half hearted attempt to keep the party alive through massive overpulls while standing in the fire and forgetting that cooldowns exist.

When I'm not running out of MP healing idiots, I like to take long walks off short piers.



Even in other games now, theres a focus on Healers being Healers as a secondary role to providing DPS.
Its actually why i like AST more than SCH or WHM.
As an AST, i spend my free time between heals setting up the biggest damage boosts i can for the party. If the Tank is good enough (Read: Can take more than 3 seconds to go from 100 - dead), Then I'll throw in some DoTs and maybe a nuke here and there.
Some parties have this idiotic demand that Healers spend more time dealing damage than actually keeping the party alive. And if you did't cast a damage spell in the last 4 seconds, you must be doing it wrong and holding up the party.
Its dependent on the party as a whole, as well as the encounter in question. Some fights just have too much unavoidable damage to apply much DPS while also maintaining heals.
Some people don't understand that and assume the healer (who is doing his/her best to keep the party alive, and thus doing damage) is just being 'lazy'.

Personally, I've been wishing that Bards had a Regen Song. It would be awesome to be able to support a Healer by reducing their burden enough that they felt more comfortable dropping some nukes.

I would also love to see Dancer as a right and proper Support Class (with enough healing power to dedicate itself to healing if it wanted to, or to focus on damage dealing) whose playstyle revolved around doing DPS while healing and buffing the party. It could be a lot of fun to play a Job like that.

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TL;DR
I joked about needing to spam heals and then went on to describe that not only do i DPS while healing, but that i would also support and enjoy a dedicated healer job whose primary role was to deal damage while healing.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Seems you really like strawmans. :D

No, i mean the forward player, who always loses the ball right away or kicked it accidently up to the stands or a basketball-player who never had a succesfull pass and never hit the basket, while also traveling a lot. You know... like a "bad" player.


We're talking about ilvl 260+ players who just don't want to heal. Not "I'm to inexperienced" or "I'm undergeared" or anything like that. And this is why they are called "bad".

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Neither of those were part of your original post.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

like saying that every player of a sports team (doesn't matter if professional or just for fun) is good, just because the team won. Hell, no.
A team can win, even if one of their players never touched the ball or didn't even attempt to go for the ball. And no.. this one isn't called "minimal good" then.

Same in dungeons... if you're a SCH in some dungeons (with proper dps/tank) you can acutally do nothing. As a dps, you almost never fail a dungeon (unless you got kicked), if you don't attack at all, because 3 ppl are enough to clear any dungeon. So, if I auto-follow the tank and we still clear the dungeon, my auto-following was "minimal good"? Never ever.

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Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Neither of those were part of your original post.

Had you said as such, my original reply would have been different.
You've gone from generalizing "one of their players never touched the ball", to specifying the one member of the team that should always be in contact with the ball.

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I also said "or never attempts to go for the ball". But anyway, according to you "winning" the game makes everyone "minimal good".

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As to the i260+ players, again, did their inaction regarding dps cost you the run? Or did it merely extend by a few minutes the time it took to end the run?

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It doesn't matter. Bad actions (including "taking no action" at all) are bad. Period.

Don't get me wrong. I don't kick any people out of my runs, nor do I mention anything usually. But I will label bad players as bad (in my head or in conversation with friends) and won't play that down, because people like you are afraid to use proper terms.

Of course it is. Its not respecting the content.

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

Of course it is. Its not respecting the content.

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Nice joke, i died.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Do you mean to say that a member of a sports team in a position that didn't get much or any action, such as the goalkeep on a soccer team that managed to prevent the opposition from getting into range to try for a goal is inherently bad at soccer because he didn't get to the ball?

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Football well this is a really good example. So in your thinking a striker should be the only one to score a goal. The midfielders,defenders etc should make no attempt at scoring as they are not their for that. Oh BTW many goalkeepers in the past have even come out of their net and scored a goal.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

I also said "or never attempts to go for the ball". But anyway, according to you "winning" the game makes everyone "minimal good".



It doesn't matter. Bad actions (including "taking no action" at all) are bad. Period.

Don't get me wrong. I don't kick any people out of my runs, nor do I mention anything usually. But I will label bad players as bad (in my head or in conversation with friends) and won't play that down, because people like you are afraid to use proper terms.

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You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Football well this is a really good example. So in your thinking a striker should be the only one to score a goal. The midfielders,defenders etc should make no attempt at scoring as they are not their for that. Oh BTW many goalkeepers in the past have even come out of their net and scored a goal.

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Actually, In my example (based off Neophytes first post), The goalkeeper simply never had an opportunity at the ball, since the rest of his team was good enough to keep it in the opposing half of the field, where the goalkeeper shouldn't be. Does that make him a bad member of the team? He performs his role perfectly well, But doesn't get a chance to perform a secondary role.
Not saying that goalies have never scored goals (I've seen some incredible shots). My example should only be taken in context to what it was replying to.

In the case of healers, if the tank and/or party is taking a beating and at risk of death, can you reasonably expect them to abandon healing just to eke out some more dps to appease the angrier members of this community? Because that is frequently the mindset of those who most strongly push healers into DPSing. Not saying ALL of those, but a fair number.
If we liken that to the goalie, then should the goalie take a shot at the ball if it means the opposition will score a goal?
All i've been trying to do this whole time is point out that not every healer you meet in a DF is going to have the personal skills, gear or party that lets them DPS as freely as others might.
Its situational, dependent on several factors, the most important being how comfortable the healer is with performing the additional role of a DD.
I'd rather clear it in a few more minutes than risk losing even more time to wipes or raised DDs with weakness.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Mediocrity makes you awesome

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I don't understand your logic at all here.

My primary dungeon strategy on SCH is to let Eos do the heavy lifting while I DPS.

So you're saying that I could do the bare minimum (Summon > afk) and that makes me a good player and not a lazy fuckwit? I mean, I'm performing my primary role just fine as long as no one dies, right?

How is that any different than the hundreds of healers that Medica II and then literally stand around doing nothing?

At the end of the day, from a tank/DPS perspective in dungeons I solve the heal only problem by taking more risks. I'll tank in Sword Oath/Deliverance/Darkside or intentionally get hit with non lethal AOEs to keep my DPS high. Both parties get a win win that way.

Lazy healers get triggered, heavy healers get something to do and the party gets more DPS!

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Originally Posted by Sylve

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

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In normal Dungeons only FoE is neede, and a Brd with a perfect Rotation uses it.
The other Songs aren't needed there.

Healers who don't dps, are just lazy and want a free carry.
If the other 3 in the party would only press a button every 10sec, then it will be hard to clear the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

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Of course you would, what kind of question is that?

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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Then you will always be a mediocre healer, a good healer can do both and are a credit to their party.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

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Being a Bard involves knowing when and when not to sing, you need to be able to sing and do a large amount of damage otherwise no you cannot be considered "good".

I cant understand why people insist on sticking to the notion that healers should do no damage. It's actively encouraged in the novice hall. Are you all saying SE don't know how to play there own game or something?
Sure you don't have to, just as the tank doesn't have to do anything more than use just enough enmity moves, and the dps hit some buttons every so often, maybe pop a cooldown. You'll still complete the run in the 60mins right?

People can do either or, but to say no damage as a healer in this game is the standard is crazy given the design favors the opposite. A healer than can balance healing and damage will provide a smother and quicker run than one that cant.
Might not be by much but still better than a slow run.

All i hear each time this comes up is why aim for an A or B when i can pass with a C. This game has a problem with advocating mediocrity at the expense of other peoples play experience.

Or is your gametime the most important?

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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With a good tank and dd's, as a scholar you can mostly go on auto-follow the whole dungeon.
Is this fair? As a healer, why shouldn't we help the group to clear the dungeon faster instead of staying afk without doing anything?

Or tanks which just hold emnity without using defensive skills to take less damage, is that what you want to?

It's way more fun, if every player in the group try to give his best and make the run smoother and faster.
I really don't get this lazyness since 3.0 :(

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Originally Posted by nekuxdesu

Of course you would, what kind of question is that?

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A simple one actually. With your answer seeming to be "Unless you're perfect at your job, you're bad".

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Originally Posted by Campi

In normal Dungeons only FoE is neede, and a Brd with a perfect Rotation uses it.
The other Songs aren't needed there.

Healers who don't dps, are just lazy and want a free carry.
If the other 3 in the party would only press a button every 10sec, then it will be hard to clear the dungeon.

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I would like to point out the value in using Army's Paeon between large pulls in 4 mans, especially when your second DD is TP based.
There is also value in Warden's. Especially for Warriors, as it prevents pacification as well as clearing it if applied late.

And yet there are many BRDs who do not sing Foes Req.
I've also never seen a Bard in DF use Warden's on themselves or others, expecting the healer to Esuna/Leeches.

So it's acceptable for a Bard to ignore part of its toolkit in 4mans despite there being occasions to make use of them, but Healers cannot ignore part of theirs when the use, or lack of, does not impact the success rate of the duty in question?

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Originally Posted by Sylve

You're looking at good and bad as completely black or white. As an example, two Bards. Same gear. One of them has an imperfect rotation, but ensures he always sings the right song at the proper times. The other one never sings, but has a pitch perfect rotation.

Do you simply label them both as bad?
I am genuinely curious.

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Both are bad players one is lowering his own damage and the other is lowering the parties damage. So by your logic a SCH is not bad if he doesn't get his fairy out or an AST isn't bad if they don't use their cards, well as long as they just heal and everyone lives.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Actually, In my example (based off Neophytes first post), The goalkeeper simply never had an opportunity at the ball, since the rest of his team was good enough to keep it in the opposing half of the field, where the goalkeeper shouldn't be. Does that make him a bad member of the team? He performs his role perfectly well, But doesn't get a chance to perform a secondary role.
Not saying that goalies have never scored goals (I've seen some incredible shots). My example should only be taken in context to what it was replying to.

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Actually the goalkeeper would be still doing a secondary role every time he kicks the ball into the opposing teams side of the field. If a goalkeeper wanted to do the bare minimum he would just keep passing it to his team in his half. So yes if that goalkeeper takes no risks doing goal kicks that may go to an opposing player then yes he is a bad goalkeeper.

Everyone can do the bare minimum but if the team fails due to this expect a kick/disband or called out for it.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Better not get in a group with me then. I am there not heal and keep people alive not dps. I do not dps on my healers, if I want to dps then I will go on a dps job.

There is no requirement to dps as a healer, our job is to keep everyone alive so they can do their job.

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I might not go so far as to initiate a vote kick against you, but I will happily click "yes" if the window comes up. If my run is gonna be artificially extended either way I'd rather spend a few minutes waiting for a replacement (and call up a FC/LS member if necessary) than spend them carrying yet another lazy healer through easy content.

It sounds like Sylve is talking about players who are trying their best but maybe aren't playing top notch, while Neophyte is talking about a bump on a log auto-following the party and contributing nothing, and responding to each other as if they've swapped what kind of players they're talking about. I think the discrepancy here is intention/effort vs outright skill.

If a player is trying their best, but are using imperfect rotations/forgetting to use certain cooldowns or optimizing their downtime as a healer by throwing in DPS when they're safely able to do so, I feel like you could call them a 'good player' in terms of the fact that they're trying, but perhaps they're lacking in the skill department (I refer to skill as in skill you can improve through practice, not innate skill where they're simply "dumb") and just need more practice or some advice. Unskilled, sure, but they're trying.

However, if a player is deliberately just tagging along and doing absolutely nothing, or outright sits at the entrance doing nothing, then within the context of this game they are a bad player. This game is about cooperation with other players. Your subscription fee entitles you access to the game's servers and the ability to create a character on it, it does not inherently entitle you to play however you want despite (or even TO spite) your fellow players without any form of consequence leveled at you by said fellow players.

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If a player is trying their best, but are using imperfect rotations/forgetting to use certain cooldowns or optimizing their downtime as a healer by throwing in DPS when they're safely able to do so, I feel like you could call them a 'good player' in terms of the fact that they're trying, but perhaps they're lacking in the skill department (I refer to skill as in skill you can improve through practice, not innate skill where they're simply "dumb") and just need more practice or some advice. Unskilled, sure, but they're trying.

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Yes I agree and you can spot these players as you will see the occasional song going up or cleric popped on and quickly took off as they realised it was the wrong time. Everyone should strive to use every useful ability they have available to them.

Also while discussing clerics etc. How many healers here have clerics as their first cross class instead of protect?

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Originally Posted by Seig345

It sounds like Sylve is talking about players who are trying their best but maybe aren't playing top notch, while Neophyte is talking about a bump on a log auto-following the party and contributing nothing, and responding to each other as if they've swapped what kind of players they're talking about. I think the discrepancy here is intention/effort vs outright skill.

If a player is trying their best, but are using imperfect rotations/forgetting to use certain cooldowns or optimizing their downtime as a healer by throwing in DPS when they're safely able to do so, I feel like you could call them a 'good player' in terms of the fact that they're trying, but perhaps they're lacking in the skill department (I refer to skill as in skill you can improve through practice, not innate skill where they're simply "dumb") and just need more practice or some advice. Unskilled, sure, but they're trying.

However, if a player is deliberately just tagging along and doing absolutely nothing, or outright sits at the entrance doing nothing, then within the context of this game they are a bad player. This game is about cooperation with other players. Your subscription fee entitles you access to the game's servers and the ability to create a character on it, it does not inherently entitle you to play however you want despite (or even TO spite) your fellow players without any form of consequence leveled at you by said fellow players.

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You understand perfectly what I'm getting at. Thank you.
And now you've said it, that i didn't see the misunderstanding i was making towards Neophytes posts makes me feel a bit silly.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

It sounds like Sylve is talking about players who are trying their best but maybe aren't playing top notch, while Neophyte is talking about a bump on a log auto-following the party and contributing nothing, and responding to each other as if they've swapped what kind of players they're talking about. I think the discrepancy here is intention/effort vs outright skill.


If a player is trying their best, but are using imperfect rotations/forgetting to use certain cooldowns or optimizing their downtime as a healer by throwing in DPS when they're safely able to do so, I feel like you could call them a 'good player' in terms of the fact that they're trying, but perhaps they're lacking in the skill department (I refer to skill as in skill you can improve through practice, not innate skill where they're simply "dumb") and just need more practice or some advice. Unskilled, sure, but they're trying.

However, if a player is deliberately just tagging along and doing absolutely nothing, or outright sits at the entrance doing nothing, then within the context of this game they are a bad player. This game is about cooperation with other players. Your subscription fee entitles you access to the game's servers and the ability to create a character on it, it does not inherently entitle you to play however you want despite (or even TO spite) your fellow players without any form of consequence leveled at you by said fellow players.

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My evil twin. D: (Or wait, am I the evil one?)

I think I made it pretty clear that I talk about players "refusing" to do specific things, although it would make everything smoother/faster/safer (=better); and instead idle or repeatedly do "unneccessary" things (like overhealing with Cure II a tank with 21.000/23.000 HP).

I already said: Don't call the players bad, call their actions bad (if they're bad).
If you have a player who does countless "bad" actions, then we don't have to discuss about the label for that player I think.
Also this is nothing personal. It's just an evaluation of the performance of a specific player.
As said, I don't kick any players usually anyway and because of the low receptivity of some players I don't even mention it (unless it looks like he really just doesn't know better). But I always rate their actions and (in conversation later on) I'd might summarize this under "bad player" .

No it's not.

UNLESS, She/He DPS and forgot to heal. And, sadly, this is becoming more common. It is not the frist time I've at 5% HP when healer notice it an heal me because was too busy DPSing.

And pelase. Can you be more respectful with only heal hhealers? DPS as healer is a option, not a obligation. YOu don't need be a idiot to them.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

My evil twin. D: (Or wait, am I the evil one?)

I think I made it pretty clear [...]

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I believe you did, I just wanted to focus on the general discrepancy rather than dig any deeper on that since it wasn't necessary.

Also, yes! Evil/Good twin! (I ditched the glasses because they just looked creepy on me because they blended in with my skin)

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

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Also while discussing clerics etc. How many healers here have clerics as their first cross class instead of protect?

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I'm going to confess that I was completely ignorant of the cross class slots being locked by progressive level requirements from left to right until reading this thread...

Edit: Yes, the evidence has smacked me in the face countless times in the past now that I think about it, but, what's a pototo to do?

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Originally Posted by Seig345

I believe you did, I just wanted to focus on the general discrepancy rather than dig any deeper on that since it wasn't necessary.

Also, yes! Evil/Good twin! (I ditched the glasses because they just looked creepy on me because they blended in with my skin)



I'm going to confess that I was completely ignorant of the cross class slots being locked by progressive level requirements from left to right until reading this thread...

Edit: Yes, the evidence has smacked me in the face countless times in the past now that I think about it, but, what's a pototo to do?

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Well I NEVER have protect in Sastasha etc till 20 as it is not needed and would rather dps and heal.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Well I NEVER have protect in Sastasha etc till 20 as it is not needed and would rather dps and heal.

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Now that I'm aware of this, I will be rearranging my cross skill slots to do the same. X)

Overhealing is bad.
Doing nothing is bad.

Always be casting.


Do your best to keep everyone alive.
If there's no need to heal when your GCD comes up, you might as well throw in some damage so you're actually doing something instead of just waiting.

If you're not confident enough to swap into cleric stance yet, even just practicing by throwing out damage spells without stance swapping can help you learn when you'll be able to stance dance safely.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

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At the end of the day, from a tank/DPS perspective in dungeons I solve the heal only problem by taking more risks. I'll tank in Sword Oath/Deliverance/Darkside or
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Well, you should be using Darkside anyway.
It's not mutually exclusive with Grit. ;P

even the novice network tells you to dps :)

That's not the best advice for a newies healer...

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

That's not the best advice for a newies healer...

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Is in fact a good advice, low level dungeons are the perfect place to learn when to DpS and when to heal, the sooner you get used to it the better, however I understand why people want just to focus on healing and it should be an option.

Not at all, as long as you do your primary job and keep everyone alive you are allowed to do everything you want, of course DPSing is more usefull than jumping around (and if you are very good you can do both :p) so go for it ^^

I think kicking a healer for no DPSing during less intensive healing moments is not polite, but is a valid reason. Throw some DPS here and there when you can or risk being labeled a noob.

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Originally Posted by Voltres

or risk being labeled a noob.

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What is this 2007? Or are you still at a young age where you think being the prettiest social butterfly is what you should absolutely prioritize?

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Well, you should be using Darkside anyway.
It's not mutually exclusive with Grit. ;P

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I'm well aware of that.

"I'll tank with no Grit and just use Darkside" if you really need the clarification.

what drives me nuts it when I as a DPS are on the verge of death I look up at the party list AND THE HEALER IS CASTING AERO

if you are a healer and don't healer then you have no right to go into DF as a healer

I believe you can get away with that but

Think about how bad that looks on the one kicking.

"I don't like that you're killing things on top of keeping us alive, therefore progressing our duty faster."

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Originally Posted by Celef

Not at all, as long as you do your primary job and keep everyone alive you are allowed to do everything you want

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Is that true though? If I spam blizzard on BLM I am "dealing damage", if I spam flash on PLD, I am "holding hate. People seem to think they are alone in the instance, when they have 3-7 other people relying on them to do their job not even to their fullest, but at least to a competant level where they look like they put in effort. The exception is when people are learning, but there is a big difference between learning and trying (and communicating the fact), and going semi-afk while you "do your job".

Also, you don't need to be very good to DPS while healing, SCH is literally designed around the idea (fairy, plus skills like rouse), and WHM/AST have plenty of healing tools that give lots of downtime.

What does it matter to me if the healer is or isn't dpsing? Well, most heal only healers are better at keeping the group healthy than the thrillseekers that like to let the tank drop too low to recover promptly from while dpsing like a madman, but some people also like wiping, apparently. So long as we win and I'm happy with my performance, I dunnot care about anyone else's 'efforts'.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Is that true though? If I spam blizzard on BLM I am "dealing damage", if I spam flash on PLD, I am "holding hate. People seem to think they are alone in the instance, when they have 3-7 other people relying on them to do their job not even to their fullest, but at least to a competant level where they look like they put in effort. The exception is when people are learning, but there is a big difference between learning and trying (and communicating the fact), and going semi-afk while you "do your job".

Also, you don't need to be very good to DPS while healing, SCH is literally designed around the idea (fairy, plus skills like rouse), and WHM/AST have plenty of healing tools that give lots of downtime.

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I wouldn't ever call it acceptable for any player to behave like that in a party. But its also unnacceptable to me not to try to help them.
A particularly good memory for me is back in early ARR, Aurum Vale. Had a BLM exclusively cast Fire III till empty and then Blizzard III till full.
I asked the party to hold up, told the BLM what she was doing wrong and gave her a proper rotation to try. She saw the difference immediately, Thanked me for the help, and went on to beat the other DD in the party on damage. I actually had to work to hold enmity off her.

There are people receptive to good advice. We should always try to guide a player who isn't playing properly before making the decision to kick.
Unfortunately, the majority of players in the DF only care about getting to the end as efficiently as possible, treating anyone who isn't playing perfectly as detrimental to them.

If we all stopped and took a moment to try and help an underperforming player, we'd easily be able to separate the 'unskilled but willing to learn' from the ones who are just plain bad and deserve a kick.

(thats not a dig at you, just a general observation)

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Originally Posted by DynamoAce

I believe you can get away with that but

Think about how bad that looks on the one kicking.

"I don't like that you're killing things on top of keeping us alive, therefore progressing our duty faster."

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Looking at it from the point of view of the kicked Healer,
"i was keeping everyone alive and not running out of MP, but i was kicked out?"

Kicking in either situation isn't polite or helpful for the one who got kicked.

Without being informed why they're getting kicked, they're just going to get confused.
Potential solution there is to make the reason for the kick displayed to the one who got kicked, similar to how the party gets the notification when choosing to kick or not.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Kicking in either situation isn't polite or helpful for the one who got kicked.

Without being informed why they're getting kicked, they're just going to get confused.
Potential solution there is to make the reason for the kick displayed to the one who got kicked, similar to how the party gets the notification when choosing to kick or not.

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Yeah agreed, sometimes there are some who do things wrong without realizing it so that would really help.
But in the case of "difference in playstyle" sometimes it does suck to go through that. It would be interesting if queing for duty finder had an option for letting you que with those that have a certain playstyle, maybe a setting for that like how they do for languages.