Tomes vs random drops

I'd rather have both. Using current content as an example, put the 260 gear in dungeons and have the same drops available for tomestones as "RNG insurance."

Something can be said for either, both are ways to keep content alive to some extent and one should not cancel the other option, in my opinion.

Personally I am a fan of the Tomestone farming, I still consider myself a pretty casual player who's more into gathering, crafting and mainly doing the story content.
With Tomestones I'm assured to at least stay around or above the content level while being able to mainly do the things I enjoy doing the most in this game.
The random drop system is perfect for those that enjoy and have enough time to run that content.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

Sure worked out really well for Diadem.

In my opinion, it's less about what the system is and more about how well it is implemented.

As it stands, I will take the boring daily tome grind over boring dungeon run any days.

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The gear in Diadem was the only draw, that chance that you could have insanely good stats etc. was all that kept people going. What didn't work out for Diadem was Diadem.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Random drops are a terrible idea. Hey, why don't we lock content behind luck? Why don't we encourage people to treat the game like a job to "fairly" distribute drops?

I suspect all the positivity in this thread is survivorship bias, with perhaps a dash of masochism. If you actually get the drops you want, they're great, and if you don't, you probably stopped playing those kinds of games long ago.

Case in point, since I hit 60 with every job I've started running expert dungeons with whichever job has the most potential for gear upgrades. In my last eight expert runs I've seen exactly one (1) drop I could roll need on (and it just happened it was one I already had, so I had to pass anyway). Needless to say, I would not be running expert dungeons at all if that was the only reward.

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It does sound like you are influenced by survivorship bias as well.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

It does sound like you are influenced by survivorship bias as well.

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That's true. However, from a standpoint of trying to get as many players to play as possible, the fact that anyone is frustrated by this system makes it a bad system. Rewarding a segment of your players while annoying another segment is not neutral, it's a net negative. No one is paying you more because they got more gear.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

That's true. However, from a standpoint of trying to get as many players to play as possible, the fact that anyone is frustrated by this system makes it a bad system. Rewarding a segment of your players while annoying another segment is not neutral, it's a net negative. No one is paying you more because they got more gear.

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I find your argument confusing. The fact that there are some who prefer 1 system, some who prefer the other system, and some who prefer a mix, isn't Square doomed to hit that net negative with no matter what system they end up using then?

I think ultimately, you can only discern the net negative by determining the number of players that like each system, and the number of players that will quit or subscribe with each system. This is virtually impossible. This thread aims to gather some information on that, though. Looking at competitors, as mentioned previously, WoW has the highest subscriber rate of any MMO consistently and substantially for 12 years straight, and WoW uses a random stat system. This suggests that the success of an MMO is not dependent on using a tomestone system.

When it comes to loot I hate tomestones as a primary source.

To me personally I would say the loot system the extreme primals use is almost perfect. (better if tokens didn't eat inventory space)

If you kill Sophia Extreme for example a weapon is guaranteed to drop for the party. It may or may not be a weapon you want. If it is then that's cool hope you win the roll.

If it isn't then don't worry because you also got a token. so even if you do the fight loads of times and the weapon you want never drops. after x number of wins (10 in the case of extreme primals) you'll have enough tokens to get your weapon no matter what. so progress is still guaranteed

Personally I think it's one of the best loot systems in place.

The issue with tomestones (currently Scripture) is that player's don't do the content for the loot, just the daily bonus.
no one cares about the 225 loot that drops from expert roulettes for example. all they care about is the 90 scripture they'll get at the end... just makes the content even more invalid and obselete than it already is...

I like the Tome gear system since SE seems to have odd weights on gear drops atm to the point were healer and tank gear drops more then caster gear

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I find your argument confusing. The fact that there are some who prefer 1 system, some who prefer the other system, and some who prefer a mix, isn't Square doomed to hit that net negative with no matter what system they end up using then?

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I'm not talking about people quitting because of what system exists, I'm talking about people quitting because they get frustrated by not getting any drops. My point is that changing a system that treats users equally to one that randomly benefits some users and harms others is a net negative. Maybe some people do quit or never play in the first place because of the tomestone system, but I am sure many would quit if they removed it (starting with myself).

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I'm not talking about people quitting because of what system exists, I'm talking about people quitting because they get frustrated by not getting any drops. My point is that changing a system that treats users equally to one that randomly benefits some users and harms others is a net negative. Maybe some people do quit or never play in the first place because of the tomestone system, but I am sure many would quit if they removed it (starting with myself).

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My point is that we have no idea how many people who did not sub in the first place, or quit because of the tomestone system, and we equally have no idea how many people would quit if the system was changed. Both systems directly affect if you get your drop, so the difference between getting your drop or changing the system is kind of moot.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

My point is that we have no idea how many people who did not sub in the first place, or quit because of the tomestone system, and we equally have no idea how many people would quit if the system was changed. Both systems directly affect if you get your drop, so the difference between getting your drop or changing the system is kind of moot.

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I will grant that we don't know for a fact which of these two systems would be better. Are you proposing people no longer discuss things that don't have a factually known answer, then? Not really sure where you're going with this.

My opinion is that this game will greatly suffer if, at this point, they go from the current system to one consisting only of random drops.

People will, more often than not, prefer the tome system over random drops. This is largely because drops come from 3 places:

1.) Dungeons
2.) 24-man Raids
3.) 8-man Raids

2 out of the 3 of these are on a weekly lockout and the other is completely faceroll. RNG is no fun at all when the content itself isn't fun - you wouldn't want to run a dungeon over and over and over to get that one piece of loot you wanted because it would be a chore, which isn't how a game should be.

The content that works best atm is, imo, EX Primals. RNG system w/ tokens to circumvent RNG, extra fun loot, and fun fights (even if they've gotten quite dumbed down lately they're still fun mechanically). If dungeons and raiding could be as appealing as EX Primals I think we'd have a more enjoyable end game.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I will grant that we don't know for a fact which of these two systems would be better. Are you proposing people no longer discuss things that don't have a factually known answer, then? Not really sure where you're going with this.

My opinion is that this game will greatly suffer if, at this point, they go from the current system to one consisting only of random drops.

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I am discussing it, and am all for discussing it. I am not for statements which completely disregard the opposing opinion, when the statements are based on made up facts.

Instead of making doom and gloom statements, or saying that people with opposing views suffer from some form of logical errors of bias in their arguments, just state what your opinion is and why.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

When it comes to loot I hate tomestones as a primary source.

To me personally I would say the loot system the extreme primals use is almost perfect. (better if tokens didn't eat inventory space)

If you kill Sophia Extreme for example a weapon is guaranteed to drop for the party. It may or may not be a weapon you want. If it is then that's cool hope you win the roll.

If it isn't then don't worry because you also got a token. so even if you do the fight loads of times and the weapon you want never drops. after x number of wins (10 in the case of extreme primals) you'll have enough tokens to get your weapon no matter what. so progress is still guaranteed

Personally I think it's one of the best loot systems in place.

The issue with tomestones (currently Scripture) is that player's don't do the content for the loot, just the daily bonus.
no one cares about the 225 loot that drops from expert roulettes for example. all they care about is the 90 scripture they'll get at the end... just makes the content even more invalid and obselete than it already is...

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I pretty much agree with this. The same system can be found in raids, with Alexandrian pages dropping in addition to random drops. This gives you the excitement of loot that it may have just what you are looking for, but also provides a safety net against poor RNG.

While, I tend to prefer the system in WoW overall for loot, both the Extreme primal and Savage raid loot system works quite well and I am pretty content with it. My only request would be to add more secondary stat options. This could be with randomized stats in the drops and/or providing multiple options for purchasing with your tokens. Guild Wars 2 has a system like this, where you can buy the armor-piece with the secondary stats that you want for the build you're going for.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Looking at competitors, as mentioned previously, WoW has the highest subscriber rate of any MMO consistently and substantially for 12 years straight, and WoW uses a random stat system. This suggests that the success of an MMO is not dependent on using a tomestone system.

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It also suggests that the success isn't dependent on a random stat/drop system. Since WoW got released at the right time, just as MMOs became popular, and gained a huge loyal fanbase because of it (just look at the milions who stayed subscribed in Warlords of Draenor, its worst expansion to date).

Do you mean random drop, or random stat system? The amount of items that actually use the <Random Enchantment> tag are a minority. In Legion, that accounts to the crafted gear, and trinkets from world quests. Everything else already has set stats, with the only difference being whether you get warforged/titanforged or a gem socket. Warforged/titanforged doesn't randomize the stats, it just increases the amount due to higher iLvl, while a gem socket is similar to materia melding.
There's also tertiary stats that may appear on an item, but those honestly don't really have much of an effect, unless you happen to stack a ton of a specific tertiary stat.

Comparing content that can be queued for (heroic dungeons in WoW, expert dungeons in XIV), they're really not all that different. The heroic dungeons in WoW drops gear that may get warforged/titanforged, but the base iLvl is easily overgeared through the world quest system (And I'd argue that unless you get a high titanforged proc, it's still likely to not be an upgrade). Similarly, XIV expert dungeons drop gear that people often already overgear, with the other reward being tomestones that can be used for upgrades. Alexander Normal can be compared to WoW LFR in a similar way, though I'd say it favors Alexander in that regard.

There's also mythic dungeons in WoW, but those can't be queued for, and XIV doesn't have any light party content that can be compared to it.

Additionally, the random legendary system in Legion is probably the expansion's most hated feature.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

It also suggests that the success isn't dependent on a random stat/drop system. Since WoW got released at the right time, just as MMOs became popular, and gained a huge loyal fanbase . because of it (just look at the milions who stayed subscribed in Warlords of Draenor, its worst expansion to date).

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Indeed, I did not draw that conclusion that it is dependent on a random stat/drop system. FFXIV is successful, and does not have this system. The point is that the success of an MMO is not dependent on these systems, and that implementing either is not going to cause the game to fail.

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Do you mean random drop, or random stat system? The amount of items that actually use the <Random Enchantment> tag are a minority. In Legion, that accounts to the crafted gear, and trinkets from world quests. Everything else already has set stats, with the only difference being whether you get warforged/titanforged or a gem socket. Warforged/titanforged doesn't randomize the stats, it just increases the amount due to higher iLvl, while a gem socket is similar to materia melding.
There's also tertiary stats that may appear on an item, but those honestly don't really have much of an effect, unless you happen to stack a ton of a specific tertiary stat.

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I mean both, to be honest. My understanding is that gear in dungeons (mythic+ included) also has random stats, but maybe I am mistaken. Even without random secondary stats, there are just more horizontal options available to obtain the secondary stat structure you want in WoW.

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Comparing content that can be queued for (heroic dungeons in WoW, expert dungeons in XIV), they're really not all that different. The heroic dungeons in WoW drops gear that may get warforged/titanforged, but the base iLvl is easily overgeared through the world quest system (And I'd argue that unless you get a high titanforged proc, it's still likely to not be an upgrade). Similarly, XIV expert dungeons drop gear that people often already overgear, with the other reward being tomestones that can be used for upgrades. Alexander Normal can be compared to WoW LFR in a similar way, though I'd say it favors Alexander in that regard.

There's also mythic dungeons in WoW, but those can't be queued for, and XIV doesn't have any light party content that can be compared to it.

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You can obtain legendary items and very high level items through titanforged in Heroic dungeons in WoW. Then there is also Mythic+ which can drop raid level gear; unfortunately, there is no real comparison here.

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Additionally, the random legendary system in Legion is probably the expansion's most hated feature.

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Some people hate it, but I don't think we have actual data to confirm this. Personally, I really like the feature. I don't go around exclaiming it though. The negative voices are always the loudest

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I mean both, to be honest. My understanding is that gear in dungeons (mythic+ included) also has random stats, but maybe I am mistaken. Even without random secondary stats, there are just more horizontal options available to obtain the secondary stat structure you want in WoW.

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Incorrect, the dungeons have set loot tables, with set stats. The Grand Challenger's Bounty (item reward based on the highest mythic+ cleared of the previous week) also takes from the dungeon loot tables, and doesn't have random stats.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

You can obtain legendary items and very high level items through titanforged in Heroic dungeons in WoW. Then there is also Mythic+ which can drop raid level gear; unfortunately, there is no real comparison here.

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I mentioned titanforged as well, but you'd have to be extremely lucky to get an upgrade that way. Titanforged shows up when an item gets a +15 ilvl bonus (base heroic iLvl 825 + 15, so i840) after that, the loot system keeps doing internal rolls for additional +5 ilvl upgrade steps. The total titanforged upgrade depending on how many of those rolls succeed. It requires a lot of luck to get something like i880 from a heroic. As for legendaries, they can drop from nearly any content in Legion.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Some people hate it, but I don't think we have actual data to confirm this. Personally, I really like the feature. I don't go around exclaiming it though. The negative voices are always the loudest

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The ones who enjoy the feature are often the ones who got the right legendary as their first or second drop. The ones who hate it often do so because they've gotten a shit one, or none at all (like Prydaz or Sephuz).

But when it comes to tomes vs. random drops, the only way I could see it done through the dungeon system, is when SE decides to create a system similar to the mythic dungeons in WoW. Dungeons that are more difficult to clear, but also give decent gear drops as reward. There'd probably be a lot of complaints by not including it as a solo-queue in the Duty Finder (see PotD 101-200), but I think the cross-server Party Finder will be sufficient to gather parties for it.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Incorrect, the dungeons have set loot tables, with set stats. The Grand Challenger's Bounty (item reward based on the highest mythic+ cleared) also takes from the dungeon loot tables, and doesn't have random stats.

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Thanks for the clarification. I guess I was confused, due to the plethora of different gear with various stats of the same ilvl that it appeared they were randomized.

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I mentioned titanforged as well, but you'd have to be extremely lucky to get an upgrade that way. Titanforged shows up when an item gets a +15 ilvl bonus (base heroic iLvl 825 + 15, so i840) after that, the loot system keeps doing internal rolls for additional +5 ilvl upgrade steps. The total titanforged upgrade depending on how many of those rolls succeed. It requires a lot of luck to get something like i880 from a heroic. As for legendaries, they can drop from nearly any content in Legion.

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I definitely understand, but I like that there is that random chance to obtain a higher quality item. I am only 840 and 849, so even obtaining items in that range is useful for me at the moment. I understand that once you have raid gear, the drops in heroic would be less useful. It's very different form here though, where the drops are useful if you are in gear dated 18 months ago. However, as long as you have obtained gear in the past 12 months, expert drops are completely pointless.

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The ones who enjoy the feature are often the ones who got the right legendary as their first or second drop. The ones who hate it often do so because they've gotten a shit one, or none at all (like Prydaz or Sephuz).

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That is possible. I have yet to receive one, and I still like the system, however.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

My point is that we have no idea how many people whodid not sub in the first place, or quit because of the tomestone system, and we equally have no idea how many people would quit if the system was changed. Both systems directly affect if you get your drop, so the difference between getting your drop or changing the system is kind of moot.

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You can get somewhat of an idea. Just look at gearing outside of tomestones. For example Mhach when released. There are complains about the tomestone system... but there is hate towards the rng drops.

What happens with those dungeons if the gear isn't relevant anymore, because without currency roulettes aren't needed anymore? Who would want to go ARF/Neverreap if they only drop ilvl 170 gear?
Who does lvl 50, if they only drop ARR gear?
So the 3.4 dungeons give 260 gear now.. what do the 3.45 give?

People already complain about burnout. A rng system only reinforces that.
Even if we assume someone's really only doing experts to cap their tomes... that's about 12*5 = 60 times the same 2 dungeons to cap tomes from 11/01/16 (3.45) to 01/24/17 (likely 3.5).
With rng that will only become more, with fun waiting for and fighting over loot every single run.
Unless in a premade group, which is better because of loot distribution then anyway. Same with tokens added as a safety net, because that is how farms usually are done, premade. Unless they make them not farm-able, like cap them on a daily/wekly basis, which would make them literally tomestones , lol.
Speedruns will be more of a thing than ever, because no drop->again->no drop->again..
It's easy to forgive one slow run, if it's the only one for today.. but 5 slow ones in a row? Nah, "kick"...

Well, the fights over loot can be alleviated by giving personal drops.. but that won't solve the other issues.

tl;dr: RIP dutyfinder with a (not weekly locked) rng system and no currency, because dungeon runs will be done like any other farm where loot distribution and time efficiency matters: (PF) premade
Also more hate towards other players if not premade, because fights over important loot (proof: Mhach, Alex normal).
Also even more pressure to speed run.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I pretty much agree with this. The same system can be found in raids, with Alexandrian pages dropping in addition to random drops. This gives you the excitement of loot that it may have just what you are looking for, but also provides a safety net against poor RNG.

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Yeah it's a great system and it works really well. Progress is guaranteed but sometimes you also get that bit extra out of it.

Sticking with Sophia ex as my earlier example. I was quite lucky in that my first clear netted me the BLM weapon which was exactly the one I wanted to get.

Then I wanted the NIN weapon as my ninja was still running around with a 230 relic. so I went back a few times but had no luck on drops. Got to the point where I had 9 totems so I was feeling quite pumped as the next win I'd have my NIN weapons guaranteed.

Join a pf group and next win the NIN weapons drop and I win them on a greed roll. So now I have my weapon AND 10 totems which I could now use to get something else. BONUS!

I'm levelling warrior maybe I'll get the axe when I get 60. 4 wins later in the same group the axe drops and I ask if anyone's rolling cos I'm 56 so won't roll if someone has it at 60. group says I can have it. great...

I switch to scholar to fill a healer slot in the party and couple of runs later the SCH book drops. W00T!!!!.

As a loot system it works really well. because sure I've been quite lucky on drops and I've been doing the fight for the drops, but there's always been the guarantee that even if RNG hated me and didn't drop it I can get that weapon I want. thus progress has been guaranteed.

In my case I didn't need to use the totems so I'm now sitting on about 50 which is halfway towards the bird if I don't win the whistle before then. If I do win the whistle then great....

it's a system where you can't lose. but it still feels good to win.

it's the best loost system XIV uses by a long shot. miles better than lore/scripture/inserttomestonehere. because the problem withthem is you don't do the content for the rewards only the daily tomes... and ya restricted by weekly caps and all that faff aswell

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I like the Tome gear system since SE seems to have odd weights on gear drops atm to the point were healer and tank gear drops more then caster gear

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Do you think so. I always see dragoon get like 70% of the drops. even in Sophia. I swear ive seen more lances than anything

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

You can get somewhat of an idea. Just look at gearing outside of tomestones. For example Mhach when released. There are complains about the tomestone system... but there is hate towards the rng drops.

What happens with those dungeons if the gear isn't relevant anymore, because without currency roulettes aren't needed anymore? Who would want to go ARF/Neverreap if they only drop ilvl 170 gear?
Who does lvl 50, if they only drop ARR gear?
So the 3.4 dungeons give 260 gear now.. what do the 3.45 give?

People already complain about burnout. A rng system only reinforces that.
Even if we assume someone's really only doing experts to cap their tomes... that's about 12*5 = 60 times the same 2 dungeons to cap tomes from 11/01/16 (3.45) to 01/24/17 (likely 3.5).
With rng that will only become more, with fun waiting for and fighting over loot every single run (unless premade group, which is better because of loot distribution then anyway).

RIP dutyfinder with a rng system and no currency.

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Someone said it eloquently earlier in the thread, that an RNG system is not necessarily bad, it's how the RNG system is implemented. I don't think that the FFXIV dev team has found an RNG system that works well, but there are systems in other games of the genre which do.

Personally, I haven't run Neverreap in 1.5 years, and I've done ARF 5 times ever. I don't do 50 roulette. So, I guess from a personal perspective, I don't think they are doing a great job of encouraging me to want to run those instance. The only things in this game that I currently feel encouraged to run are expert roulettes (up to this week, now I have all my scripture gear I need, so I won't be capping any more), and Savage raids.

I'd rather systems which don't encourage burn out. I think RNG with small and frequent rewards is the way to go. FFXIV seems to excel in low drop rate, high reward, weekly lock out type RNG. I think a system which does not have a lockout, drops frequently, but only has a chance at small upgrades is more enjoyable. That way, every time I log in, I can obtain an upgrade and feel that my time was justified - even if it's just for a small boost. Instead of gaining major upgrades every week (i.e. every week I seem to gain ~20 INT and a bunch of secondary stats), I could gain a minor upgrade every day (i.e. +2 INT per day).

I prefer random drops with a token or currency as a bad RNG safety net.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I'd rather systems which don't encourage burn out. I think RNG with small and frequent rewards is the way to go. FFXIV seems to excel in low drop rate, high reward, weekly lock out type RNG. I think a system which does not have a lockout, drops frequently, but only has a chance at small upgrades is more enjoyable. That way, every time I log in, I can obtain an upgrade and feel that my time was justified - even if it's just for a small boost. Instead of gaining major upgrades every week (i.e. every week I seem to gain ~20 INT and a bunch of secondary stats), I could gain a minor upgrade every day (i.e. +2 INT per day).

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And where's the big difference to the tome system?

With daily/weekly lockout: You either do the same two dungeons (more than once) on a daily basis to progress (hopefully, because of RNG) or you fall behind other players with much more time on their hands to get their daily drop for sure. 20 days not running the same dungeons over and over again? The people who did are now +10-20 ilvls above you.
Also: If you're done, you're done (like now with scriptures).
Difference: You can catch up with a looooooot of time.

Without daily/weekly lockout: You either do the same two dungeons over and over again or you fall behind other players with much more time on their hands. 20 days not running the same dungeons over and over again? The people who did are now +10-20 ilvls above you.
Also: If you're done, you're done (like now with scriptures).

Actually, your system can be implemented with tomestones, too.
Like this:

• Buy base body armor (ilvl 250) for 525 tomes.
• Pay 30 tomes to upgrade the ilvl by 1 and raise the stats by 1-2 points.
• After having paid 825 tomestones you have an ilvl 260 armor.
• Instead of getting one big upgrade 260->270, you get ten "smaller" items from 24man runs (rng drop, 10 runs minimum for the full upgrade) and/or rng dropped form hunts (something like 10%) to level it one by one again. Drops in stacks of 10 in savage.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

And where's the big difference to the tome system?

With daily/weekly lockout: You either do the same two dungeons (more than once) on a daily basis to progress (hopefully, because of RNG) or you fall behind other players with much more time on their hands to get their daily drop for sure. 20 days not running the same dungeons over and over again? The people who did are now +10-20 ilvls above you.
Well, difference: You can catch up with a looooooot of time.

Without daily/weekly lockout: You either do the same two dungeons over and over again or you fall behind other players with much more time on their hands. 20 days not running the same dungeons over and over again? The people who did are now +10-20 ilvls above you.


Actually, your system can be implemented with tomestones, too.
Like this:

• Buy base body armor (ilvl 250) for 525 tomes.
• Pay 30 tomes to upgrade the ilvl by 1 and raise an stats by 1-2 points.
• After having paid 825 tomestones you have an ilvl 260 armor.
• Instead of getting upgrade items from hunts (or 24 man), you get with x>10 runs and rng dropped form hunts ten "smaller" upgrade items to upgrade your body further level by level.

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Agreed, I'd be supportive of small incremental upgrades being purchased with tomestones. While I'd prefer it as a drop, it is a decent compromise.

I don't really care if people out ilvl me if I am not playing in a hardcore fashion. For example, in WoW I am ilvl 840 and 849 on my two characters, which is far below what many others are now, but I am just enjoying my time as I gear up. In FFXIV, where I play more hardcore, I am the max ilvl possible, so that I can perform the best for my raid team. In other words, if you are the kind of player who needs to perform the best for your raid team, putting in that extra time to get there faster is not a big deal. If you are the kind of player who does not need that, you'll have fun incrementally getting better every time you log in, without having to worry about not being the top tier.

Tomes. Okens or whatever. Ensure prize for completing things is the best. RNG is a bullshit when you roll shit all the time. Also is unfair and unbalanced . One person can have luck and obtain all the time items, and other can be stuck days for a single one.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Agreed, I'd be supportive of small incremental upgrades being purchased with tomestones. While I'd prefer it as a drop, it is a decent compromise.

I don't really care if people out ilvl me if I am not playing in a hardcore fashion. For example, in WoW I am ilvl 840 and 849 on my two characters, which is far below what many others are now, but I am just enjoying my time as I gear up. In FFXIV, where Iplay more hardcore, I am the max ilvl possible, so that I can perform the best for my raid team. In other words, if you are the kind of player who needs to perform the best for your raid team, putting in that extra time to get there faster is not a big deal. If you are the kind of player who does not need that, you'll have fun incrementally getting better every time you log in, without having to worry about not being the top tier.

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Then again, what's the difference to tomes? If you don't care about keeping up with others, you can log in whenever you want and get your (let's say incremental) upgrade with tomes. Just treat them as a "lucky" drop and upgrade your gear by +1. I guess you won't be unhappy with a 100% drop chance just by coincidence on your "drop items", so what's the difference? ^^

All this only boils down to ones question, and that's why the title of this topic is irritating. It's not RNG drops vs. tomestones, because tomestones can co-exist in a RNG system as the so-called "safety net" items (like the primal tokens) some people mentioned. They are literally the same as the tokens, a 100% guaranteed "drop" after a kill/clear, just across more than 1 content.
They could even work with RNG in terms of "by completing you may achieve a random ammount of tomes".
The one difference is: The lockout.

And that's why the topic should be: RNG drops VS. (weekly) lockouts. You either have RNG or a lockout or both.
Tokens/Tomestones are not the system, they are only parts of an RNG/lockout/RNG+lockout system, for example to soften it or as an instrument. Tomestones are pretty equal to an alexander normal loot drop: you can trade it for gear and you can't get more than X per week. The only difference ist that tomestones are guaranteed, you don't need to roll on them).

Both (or all three) different systems serve on purpose: We don't get everything as soon as it releases. SE won't change that.
So, even if the ex dungeons would drop ilvl260 they would be weekly gated, like e.g. Mhach was at release. So back to running 5+ times the dungeons a week. Up to 40 times? 60?

The problem with rng as it currently exists, is you can farm indefinitely without getting what you are running for. Hopefully, I don't do Xelphatol/Gubal for BLM gear, I only see hands since I do daily roulette. The only and one item. That's the current problem with the "RNG by SE".

The day SE switches from a tomestone system to a system of pure RNG is the day I quit the game. Nothing is more frustrating than running content for hours on end and not getting that last piece you need, and RNG based systems themselves are one of the biggest reasons why I quit playing MMOs. Tomestones are better in that they are guaranteed progression so long as you do the content. Dungeon drops shouldn't be useful if you're already in tome gear, either.

Suffice to say, me and Desire Sensor-esque mechanics don't get along, at all.

I prefer tomes.. you know what your getting instead of constantly grinding a dungeon or raid you hate hoping for not only the piece you need to drop but to hope you don't get outrolled for it

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Then again, what's the difference to tomes? If you don't care about keeping up with others, you can log in whenever you want and get your (let's say incremental) upgrade with tomes. Just treat them as a "lucky" drop and upgrade your gear by +1. I guess you won't be unhappy with a 100% drop chance just by coincidence on your "drop items", so what's the difference? ^^

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The difference is that tomestones work like a chore. You go and do a dungeon with 0 chance or 100% chance to get your item at the end. You're not doing it with hopes of obtaining the item, you're doing it to check off your list. The difference is that you obtain a big upgrade to your gear weekly, and then nothing. Rather than receiving frequent small upgrades to your gear. I said I do care about keeping up with others in FFXIV - and am relatively ahead of the pack (I am ilvl 266 atm, just needing good rolls on twine in my raid team to upgrade my chest/legs, and for a lucky drop or a couple more runs of A10S to obtain the pages for my 270 boots).

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All this only boils down to ones question, and that's why the title of this topic is irritating. It's not RNG drops vs. tomestones, because tomestones can co-exist in a RNG system as the so-called "safety net" items (like the primal tokens) some people mentioned. They are literally the same as the tokens, a 100% guaranteed "drop" after a kill/clear, just across more than 1 content.
They could even work with RNG in terms of "by completing you may achieve a random ammount of tomes".
The one difference is: The lockout.

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The issue is that places like Sophia/Alex have gear drops, in addition to their currency drop. Experts just have the currency drop. If your first expert per week dropped a random 260 gear piece that would be something, I guess. Still not a method I would use, but it's closer anyway.

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And that's why the topic should be: RNG drops VS. (weekly) lockouts. You either have RNG or a lockout or both.
Tokens/Tomestones are not the system, they are only parts of an RNG/lockout/RNG+lockout system, for example to soften it or as an instrument. Tomestones are pretty equal to an alexander normal loot drop: you can trade it for gear and you can't get more than X per week. The only difference ist that tomestones are guaranteed, you don't need to roll on them).

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Frankly, I disagree. It's RNG vs Tomestones vs RNG+Tomestones, and Lockouts vs No-Lockouts vs Lockouts+No-Lockouts.

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Both (or all three) different systems serve on purpose: We don't get everything as soon as it releases. SE won't change that.
So, even if the ex dungeons would drop ilvl260 they would be weekly gated, like e.g. Mhach was at release. So back to running 5+ times the dungeons a week. Up to 40 times? 60?

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I agree, longevity is important. I find that the current system supports a very high need to run something with a very sharp drop off half-way through the patch. I'd prefer slower incremental upgrade possibilities. Potentially, I'd prefer a system if gear in experts drop at ilvl 250, Alex NM 260, Alex Savage 270 and tomestones could be used to upgrade the gear 2x. So you could get your 250 drops in expert and upgrade them to 260 without raiding, or you could get 270 with Alex NM or 280 with savage (or something along those lines). This is in addition to tomestones being a currency to purchase the ilvl 250 gear that drops in expert, as well. This idea is not fully fleshed out though.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I am discussing it, and am all for discussing it. I am not for statements which completely disregard the opposing opinion, when the statements are based on made up facts.

Instead of making doom and gloom statements, or saying that people with opposing views suffer from some form of logical errors of bias in their arguments, just state what your opinion is and why.



I pretty much agree with this. The same system can be found in raids, with Alexandrian pages dropping in addition to random drops. This gives you the excitement of loot that it may have just what you are looking for, but also provides a safety net against poor RNG.

While, I tend to prefer the system in WoW overall for loot, both the Extreme primal and Savage raid loot system works quite well and I am pretty content with it. My only request would be to add more secondary stat options. This could be with randomized stats in the drops and/or providing multiple options for purchasing with your tokens. Guild Wars 2 has a system like this, where you can buy the armor-piece with the secondary stats that you want for the build you're going for.

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Actually, that annoys me because those Alexandrian drops may turn out to be worthless. An example being the Dragoon feet. They are worse than the ilvl 260 Shire, thus they'll sit in my inventory/retainer until 4.0 where I'll exchange them for company seals. Yes, I still get a page, thus making the effort not a complete loss, but I would much prefer additional tokens to guarantee Alexandrian pieces similar to how you obtain tarnished items from normal. Same two chests per week restrictions apply though. This way, the static is guaranteed gear drops won't just hit the floor.

Randomized stats in Savage would be awful. Since you cannot farm loot, there's a very good probability you'll get the gear you fancy, only to discover it has worthless stats. No amount of secondary stat variation will change people's preference to min/max. All this does is making gearing up entirely devoted to luck, not skill.

Question for anyone who favors RNG-only dungeon drops: would you also favor random experience gains? Like, instead of gaining experience for each kill based on the level of the mob, you randomly gain experience each time you do anything, at a very low rate. Essentially, using FFXI's skillup system for experience. Where you can do a leve and maybe you'd gain a full level, or maybe you'd gain absolutely nothing. Does that sound appealing?

Because that's the same concept as RNG-only drops. It's also the original class experience system in 1.0. A system that was so hated that it was changed almost immediately. A system that caused almost all of my friends to quit even before they realized all of the other myriad flaws in 1.0. So... why are we calling for that kind of system, again?

Both are junk. Random plus token like ex primals best!

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Question for anyone who favors RNG-only dungeon drops: would you also favor random experience gains? Like, instead of gaining experience for each kill based on the level of the mob, you randomly gain experience each time you do anything, at a very low rate. Essentially, using FFXI's skillup system for experience. Where you can do a leve and maybe you'd gain a full level, or maybe you'd gain absolutely nothing. Does that sound appealing?

Because that's the same concept as RNG-only drops. It's also the original class experience system in 1.0. A system that was so hated that it was changed almost immediately. A system that caused almost all of my friends to quit even before they realized all of the other myriad flaws in 1.0. So... why are we calling for that kind of system, again?

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I don't think many people prefer RNG only systems. As I said earlier the primal extreme system is practically perfect. the content has direct rewards that drop when you beat it. and if RNG is terrible its not so bad because you still get a token and thus progress is guaranteed.

the other thing with primal loot systems is there's no lockout. if players want to they could grind the hell out of Sophia and get every weapon on the first day or 2 of the patch.

it really is the best loot system in XIV. and should be more widespread across content. it's a system where you can not lose. and thus is almost perfect

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Question for anyone who favors RNG-only dungeon drops: would you also favor random experience gains? Like, instead of gaining experience for each kill based on the level of the mob, you randomly gain experience each time you do anything, at a very low rate. Essentially, using FFXI's skillup system for experience. Where you can do a leve and maybe you'd gain a full level, or maybe you'd gain absolutely nothing. Does that sound appealing?

Because that's the same concept as RNG-only drops. It's also the original class experience system in 1.0. A system that was so hated that it was changed almost immediately. A system that caused almost all of my friends to quit even before they realized all of the other myriad flaws in 1.0. So... why are we calling for that kind of system, again?

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No, I would not like that, and I don't see it as a remotely similar concept.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

No, I would not like that, and I don't see it as a remotely similar concept.

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It is, however, nearly identical. In the case of rng based loot drops, your progression is wholly and entirely dependent on RNG to give you the item you need with the stats you want to progress. Similarly, having levels increase based on RNG is, again, leaving the entirety of your progression up to the whims of the Desire Sensor. Why is it OK for one form of progression to be rng locked, while another form isn't?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It is, however, nearly identical. In the case of rng based loot drops, your progression is wholly and entirely dependent on RNG to give you the item you need with the stats you want to progress. Similarly, having levels increase based on RNG is, again, leaving the entirety of your progression up to the whims of the Desire Sensor. Why is it OK for one form of progression to be rng locked, while another form isn't?

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No, it would be identical to randomly gaining tomestones, not randomly gaining gear. If you want an equal comparison, the RNG experience system would give you a level when successful. Talaren also added in "at a very low rate" which is not a requirement of an RNG system, but was a requirement for the comparison - further differentiating the analogy.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

No, it would be identical to randomly gaining tomestones, not randomly gaining gear. If you want an equal comparison, the RNG experience system would give you a level when successful. Talaren also added in "at a very low rate" which is not a requirement of an RNG system, but was a requirement for the comparison - further differentiating the analogy.

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But what do tomestones have to do with a purely rng based loot drop progression system? The system you're proposing has no tomestones, so progression is wholly linked to rng. How is that any different from gaining levels at random when you complete content? It isn't.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

But what do tomestones have to do with a purely rng based loot drop progression system? The system you're proposing has no tomestones, so progression is wholly linked to rng. How is that any different from gaining levels at random when you complete content? It isn't.

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This honestly makes no sense in the context of this conversation.

Tomestones have nothing to do with a purely RNG system. Let's look at the analogy. In Teleran's analogy...

Tomestone = Experience gained
Level = New Piece of Gear

If obtaining experience is the RNG factor, then the analogy logically follows that Teleran is equating the RNG system to obtaining tomestones. In other words you have a random chance to obtain a tomestone.

However, that is not the RNG system that I have proposed, or is used anywhere. The RNG system has you obtain a full piece of gear, which in the analogy is equivalent to a whole level. Therefore, a proper comparison is to say that you would gain levels via RNG, and not gain experience via RNG.

As mentioned, Telaran also added a caveat that the RNG experience (RNG tomestones) would be a low drop rate, further distancing itself from a proper comparison - as all of my posts recommending an RNG system have suggested a "frequent small upgrade" process.

But if we use leveling analogy for tomestones, it means, that you can only have fixed amount of exp per week. Say, 15% per week. It's not like it is now for leveling also.

We have this system. It is A9-12.

An rng system without low rng won't do much to keep people playing, so it's an entirely natural caveat to make, if one that doesn't need to be explicitly stated. I personally can't even think of someone that doesn't equate rng based systems with low rng. As for the analogy, exp in a system when levels are obtained at random are completely arbitrary. The crux is that the progression is locked behind an RNG wall, which isn't something everyone enjoys. As for frequent small upgrades... what's the difference between tomestones and your suggested high rng system, besides forcing players into content they might loathe doing for the sake of a 1 in 10 chance to win a bit of progression?