What do you think about item pop NM's?

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Originally Posted by Blarp

People are so caught up on what XI did.

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Thats all you needed to say really, but totally agree.

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and for the record, WoW is not a viable point of reference on these forums.

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Funny, seeing as one of the interviews referenced WoW being one of Yoshi-p's favourite MMO's, you mean its not viable because you either haven't played it or don't like it.

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It only takes a few dungeon runs where someone gets told sorry have to wait to cycle you in... then they sit for 30-50mins waiting for the run and get really really pissed.

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This can be a problem and my guild suffered from this in WoW, but then we realised (fairly fast) that you don't need to have just one team doing this content at one time, so we made a second team, which helped when we wanted to 25 man content also as they just merged.

Same can be done in FF14 it would make a lot more sense to take 2 LS teams to the strongholds wouldn't it ?

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Alone WoW's endgame format is bland and boring,

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I don't see this at all, granted WoW's end game is very quickly completed but its anything but boring, especially considering how Blizzard are so fast to pump out new content to keep people entertained, sure the same rinse and repeat gameplay gets boring after several years but as it does with any MMO. (yes including FF11)

So, Ive seen alot of people defending Instances and WoW..

But what exactly are the Cons to Pop NMs?.. I can't think of any..

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

ITT: people who support dated MMO ideas that do not work anymore.

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FFXI was one of the few MMOs that actually allowed you to spawn NMs, how is that dated and doesn't work when many other MMOs didn't even attempt it? XI is also one of the few MMOs that allows you to actively control drop rates through certain mechanics (i.e the stagger system), so I'm curious as to how being able to pop and control drop rates is an outdated concept and doesn't work anymore o.O

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

I'm curious as to how being able to pop and control drop rates is an outdated concept and doesn't work anymore o.O

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If you feel players should control spawn/drop rates, well, we can't really have a conversation then.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

So, Ive seen alot of people defending Instances and WoW..

But what exactly are the Cons to Pop NMs?.. I can't think of any..

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Think about how Pop NMs are implemented. Here's the breakdown:

- Goal: Obtain Z item.
- Task: 1. Farm for X pop item > 2. Kill Y mob (becomes a joke after a few times).

Do you really want to farm the same item for hours upon hours of time, which isn't fun, to have a chance to kill Y mob, which will become a joke after you do it a few times, to have a chance at obtaining Z item you actually want?

Coffer farming is currently the same crap but the tasks are combined as the NM drops the trigger item and the chest essentially simulates a drop rate. Ever done coffer farming in XI/XIV? It's mind-numbing as hell. It's a huge timesink that promotes 0 fun whatsoever. Not having fun while playing your MMO = dated concept.

So let's promote new, unique events, that we can have FUN doing while PROGRESSING with our friends. Now that sounds like a really great, productive use of time for any player. Anyone asking for less from a game is a battered housewife (which many XI players asking for old content that causes them to literally struggle with are).

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Originally Posted by Nero

He did, thats why i asked him.

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I never said there are instances in which there are NMs that have no time limit.

I merely said there are instances in this game that have no time limit.

Reading comprehension. You can have this.

When you just think of how many ppl pay to play the MMO, SE kind of want to control the rate of how fast, how many desired drops are to manifest. It's true with tradable and AH-sellable items and gear but shouldn't have to apply to rare/ex weapons, items or gear. Again, we come to the rate of speed and sense of accomplishment player need to experience during a raid, a hunt or farming. If your don't have the patience, MMORPGs isn't the genre for you. Try online, multiplayer FPSs.
In a a PvE MMO, there's the conflict and one to overturn it through dedication (yeah, it's also game time filling SEs pockets) but no one is saying you have to play as long as you do, you do it by choice. So, to all your players pointing the finger at the developers, shame on you!

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

If you feel players should control spawn/drop rates, well, we can't really have a conversation then.



Think about how Pop NMs are implemented. Here's the breakdown:

- Goal: Obtain Z item.
- Task: 1. Farm for X pop item > 2. Kill Y mob (becomes a joke after a few times).

Do you really want to farm the same item for hours upon hours of time, which isn't fun, to have a chance to kill Y mob, which will become a joke after you do it a few times, to have a chance at obtaining Z item you actually want?

Coffer farming is currently the same crap but the tasks are combined as the NM drops the trigger item and the chest essentially simulates a drop rate. Ever done coffer farming in XI/XIV? It's mind-numbing as hell. It's a huge timesink that promotes 0 fun whatsoever. Not having fun while playing your MMO = dated concept.

So let's promote new, unique events, that we can have FUN doing while PROGRESSING with our friends. Now that sounds like a really great, productive use of time for any player. Anyone asking for less from a game is a battered housewife (which many XI players asking for old content that causes them to literally struggle with are).

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Ok Fail number 1:

Having to Farm Pop items isn't a Con of Pop NMs because you do not have to use a Farm Pop Items system. NMs can be Popped Via Quests, Puzzles, Switches, Crafted Items, Bartered Items, and yes NM drops. There are dozens of ways to impliment manually spawn notorious monsters.

Fail number 2:

A lot of people Really like things like Coffer Parties. It give players something to do with there friend with the possibility of gaining great reward while advancing their character with XP and Spirit Bond. You personally may not like it, but I personally do not like instances. People have different preferences. That is why we need variety in our EG content. Not All Instance Dungeons All the TIme.

Pop NMs would be a great way to implement Open world content and encourage people to work together without excluding people for no reason other than there isn't enough room or their class isn't optimal for this particular instance.

I approve of item pop NM's.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I never said there are instances in which there are NMs that have no time limit.

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If i read it again.. then obviously...

Instances don't have to have a time limit. There are plenty of examples of that in this game, let alone other games.

You did. The fact that you didnt mention NM's doesnt drop the current Topic which is about NM's and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I merely said there are instances in this game that have no time limit.

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I i asked you to name me one, which you didnt. I ask you again to name me one.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Reading comprehension. You can have this.

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Socialskill you obviously need it.

1. English is my 4th Language.
2. Making fun of Language of other people, only shows that you dont have arguments at all.

kthxbye

Honestly, anything that adds some more variety into the game is a plus. I know FFXIV isn't finished yet but I would hope that it has a nice variety of things to do that all contribute to the Endgame experience and maxing(the best for that slot for a ability or spell) out your characters gear.

FFXI had a long time to build this up but it did have an overwhelming amount of things to do at a single time, this (correct me if I'm wrong, never played the game) compared to WoWs do this content till its replaced with this "new" content, way of doing it. All of which contributed to character growth. I can't be to far off by saying that there isn't many things that other MMOs have done (or will ever do) that isn't comparable to at least one event in FFXI, quality of implementation aside. That being said, it is probably the same for most long lived MMOs.

As far as the negatives go, the only thing I don't want to see is a similar HNM system as FFXI. It was a very unfriendly system to even hardcore players as it was VERY time consuming and VERY unfair for non-bot/non-super hardcore(those with NO life obligations, they had no where to be, ever...) players. It needs to be one of those HNMs that you really only see shouts for, or a member of the ls asking for help. Not something that is a main event for endgame shells to fight over.

Even then, you can spawn most contested HNMs these days, which is why there's nothing wrong with a Pop system. The only requirement is doing a KSNM 99 (arena fight) against an equivillent version of the HNM and you get the pop item to pop the world spawn version.

It's a pretty win-win situation as you're doing a lot of content that flows together, this is the one thing XI did well, whether you liked it or not due to personal reasons aside, not many MMOs flowed their content together well, for example doing missions unlocked end-game areas and doing quests or certain NMs unlocked the ability to progress further in certain dungeons to other content.

XI's content had very long life spans and not always because of "low drops" (only Salvage had very low drop rates), because there's always someone new or returning that needed to do x content and the gear is still worthwhile, which again, is personal preference if you like or hated that system. It wasn't until Level 80+ (2010) did they embrace the "make everything prior worthless/do this till next update" system that's so popular in MMOs.

I still yet to see the cons to allowing NM/HNM's being popped, let alone a stagger system so you can raise your chances at getting what you wanted, like Ifrit, breaking the spikes is basically the same concept as a stagger system from XI, it influences a certain aspect of the battle.

No different.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

So, Ive seen alot of people defending Instances and WoW..

But what exactly are the Cons to Pop NMs?.. I can't think of any..

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As I mentioned before I see very little difference in farming faction points than farming an item.

Also we do have some kind of item pop mechanics in the game already the Ifrit Lamp requires us to farm an item does it not, it doesn't exactly pop an NM but you are required to have it if you want to open a chest.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

As I mentioned before I see very little difference in farming faction points than farming an item.

Also we do have some kind of item pop mechanics in the game already the Ifrit Lamp requires us to farm an item does it not, it doesn't exactly pop an NM but you are required to have it if you want to open a chest.

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Faction Leves are a good example of a Pop NM but Yoshida already abandoned them even though they worked really well. But even those have unnecessary restrictions on them.

Ifirit on the other hand is the exact opposite of a good Pop NM. Its another instance, but atleast its the good kind like a BCNM

The difference with faction points is that while you're earning them, you're progressing doing the leves (generally speaking unless you're purposely trying to farm X faction's points). Then when you've accumulated enough you can get an "extra" quest. That's a parallel progression.

Pop NM is a focused progression and the tasks involved are generally very tedious, time-consuming, and must be repeated as, when you can control how often you fight the mob, the drop rates usually suffer. It's purpose is to fill your time. Personally I'd rather there be a lot of dungeons I can participate in while getting exp and having a shot at rewards in the end. Give me some paths inside the instance to spice up my life a little and have a shot at different gear for various jobs. Don't give me some crappy pop NM thing that is gonna waste my life to get an item that isn't better than some crafted HQ item.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Its another instance, but at least its the good kind like a BCNM

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What makes it the good kind ?

You have me slightly intrigued why one is considered good and one is considered bad, even though the concept is basically the same.

It does seem that Yoshi-p has abandoned the faction leve bosses, maybe someone should start a thread and ask why that is, perhaps it will get the attention of a community dev.

But yea as the post above pointed out you don't really farm faction points in so much as they are given to you, kind of like how BCNM seals where obtained as you leveled in 11.

Honestly pop NM's are a pain but it's still better then a 24hour spawn time NM. So if there thinking about high spawn times for world NM's I think a pop item system for something like this would be alot better.

Really tho in a pop item situation you still have alot of competetion of people trying to get the pop item NM's.

I think a better idea would just to be more things like Ifrit, instances are the best because anyone can enter at any time and try for the drop at any time without unnecessary competition.

I really don't want another FFXI I kinda want FFXIV to have more effective ways of doing things.

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Originally Posted by RedAffinity

How would you feel with the introduction of a structured NM system similar to that of ZNM's in FFXI?

Although the farming with pictures was tedious (i'm not asking for this).

If the gathering system was implemented in such a way that it was entertaining, would you welcome a similar system in XIV?

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I support pop NM's wholeheartedly. I've had far better experiences with pop NM's in FFXI than with ones you camp.

Camp NM's are a time synch and an evil one at that.

If they made NM's and HNM's force pop in FFXIV ... well, I think it'd be one of the smarter things they'd have done with the game.
^_^

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Actually if you think about it, Instances are more Taxing as the require the Server to load multiple version of the same zone(this is why there is an total number of instance cap). The only reason they are better than the current system server side is because the zones are so big and have to be ready to load in at all times. When they transition to smaller zones it will be significantly less taxing to load one dungeon for everyone than to load a whole dungeon for each person. Instances only appear less taxing on the user end because it is the number of characters, not the number of instances, that creates client side lag.

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Actually there are things called instance servers and your character is easily loaded into them.

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Get rid of instanced dungeons and make em open! Make those nms pop nms! Yes I can agree with this!

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thats what im saying, instance's are just systemmatic open world adds the element of competition. the dev team want people to not have stress playing and instances are #1 when it comes to elites then you need the best possible equip, the best setuup, the best everything or your too weak and turned down.

they need to make more big open dungeons all we have in FFXIV are little cold de sac caves all over, example : crawlers nest, boyada tree in FFXI nice size many mobs & rooms, wide range of levels, key drops, chest, NM's all in one place easy to find a grind area if needed.

I like the idea. More content and different stuff to do equals more fun. Especially if it doesnt spawn several times a day.

Earlier post by Arumat

"As far as the negatives go, the only thing I don't want to see is a similar HNM system as FFXI. It was a very unfriendly system to even hardcore players as it was VERY time consuming and VERY unfair for non-bot/non-super hardcore(those with NO life obligations, they had no where to be, ever...) players."

This is exactly what FFXIV should be working towards to. It's meant to be a happy playing community. It should be such that everyone has a fair chance to obtain that special piece of gear. If it's going to be open world, camping HNMs for hours and you miss the claim, then I'm sure lots of flaming & bashing is going to occur on forums, nasty reactions with a payload of expletives will occur in game, all kinds of grief tactics will come along. People will condemn, speak bad about another. Why the need for all of this? Just because of a single piece of godly gear?

FFXIV should have no room for this at all. Hence Instanced Areas with NMs & HNMs will solve it and most importantly, you will never have to camp beside a botter/hacker at all. End of the day, your friends & yourself go back to your Mog House with the godly pieces of gears obtained happily. I mean, don't you want that?

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Originally Posted by Hiten

FFXIV should have no room for this at all. Hence Instanced Areas with NMs & HNMs will solve it and most importantly, you will never have to camp beside a botter/hacker at all. End of the day, your friends & yourself go back to your Mog House with the godly pieces of gears obtained happily. I mean, don't you want that?

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This is why, even with 1-90 million players instanced based MMOs feel dead and empty because everyone is in their own little playground and the only interaction you'll have is in hub and lobby type areas.

This is why I like open world content and MMOs where people are actually out in the open, it makes the world actually feel like an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

This is why, even with 1-90 million players instanced based MMOs feel dead and empty because everyone is in their own little playground and the only interaction you'll have is in hub and lobby type areas.

This is why I like open world content and MMOs where people are actually out in the open, it makes the world actually feel like an MMO.

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I couldn't have said it better myself. Whats the point of an MMO with no community interaction? It's not a world if there is nobody in it.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

What makes it the good kind ?

You have me slightly intrigued why one is considered good and one is considered bad, even though the concept is basically the same.

It does seem that Yoshi-p has abandoned the faction leve bosses, maybe someone should start a thread and ask why that is, perhaps it will get the attention of a community dev.

But yea as the post above pointed out you don't really farm faction points in so much as they are given to you, kind of like how BCNM seals where obtained as you leveled in 11.

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BCNM is the good kind of Instance because you can put it in a real dungeon with real community interaction and still allow people to have serious boss battle without interruption. I personally like having some competition around for tough NMs cause it keeps people on there toes. But Single fight instances are a good way to have incrediblly hard fights without the fear of someone ruining it from the outside but still allowing for social interactions on the way in.

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Originally Posted by Nero

First of all, there wont be a Time Limit.

Pro's:

- You can farm certain NM's for the multiple Pop-items, you would need, whenever you want without Time-pressure.
- You could/have to explore different Zones
- You could/have to farm with multiple Parties at multiple NM' Spams against/along with other Linkshells. ( Challenging )
- After obtaining the needed Pop-Item you can go and Pop the HNM/First Tier NM. People can watch. ( Fun/Entertaining/Teaching)
- A lot of posibilites to add higher Tier Pop-NM's over the existing ones. I.e. ZNM's.

That are some of my personal Pro's and there are a couple more tho.

The only Con coming into my head is the challenging aspect, where you maybe have to fight with other Shells for a certain NM, which drops one of the Pop-items. Some would maybe not like the challenge with other Linkshells.

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Well, maybe you dont need fight over NM's, maybe something like the inferno lamp, while you clear a hard quest involving a difficult NM kill you can get your pop item as reward, so i dont see much of a problem there if they implemment a thing like that.

If everything is instanced... what is the different between mmo and a free to play guild war... where everything is instanced. I can name at least 1 reason why open world is good. Bumping into friends or enemy in such areas..... like how "real" adventurers does?

Come on, there has to be one or two time where you were in FFXI where you bump into old friends in highly dangerous area and decide to team up.... NOW this give a sense of community... not the instance..... looking thing.

I hope just hope Yoshi hears the crys of all the FF fans out there... I know I know he's trying to appeal to the masses "wow crowds" but little does he know most casuals and "masses" arent gonna look at FF as anything really. So he needs to make sure he doesnt piss off the niche crowd FF has.

Agreed, pops are the best route to take. Give us multiple sources for different NMs and potentially different places to obtain the same pop item. Say for example a high lvl DoL can harvest a very rare pop, while a DoH can craft the same one with slightly less rare items or a high rate of failure, DoW/M can farm it from a Mob or through a quest.

This keeps all classes included and is not part of the story so it would help settle the irate DoL/H players.

Pops were the best form of content in XI, sure from time to time you had to compete over Despot etc. As long as there are multiple approaches to it that would be alleviated. Make the pop items Unique so people don't farm them.

bring on the hords and hords of new NM's!!! i don't care how they are implemented but i want tons of things to kill/farm/grind. i want tons of gear to collect from nm's. i want more mini bosses, side fights that a rank 50 can enjoy or add caps to it all. more mission fights. more more. nm's nm's yes please. ty.

i would like to see a few HNM's fights that makes the enviroment change like if you are fighting some kind of ifrit the sky changes its looks from daylight, nightlight to a reddish sky or something like so you will know that some epic battle is happening at the moment, now that the areas will be independent in 2.0 they can actually implement things like that easier.

I would like to see big real time events like Guild Wars 2 where everyone around can join, a extremely hard NM that pops at that moment that needs several parties to be killed, like in the strongholds that you need 2-3 parties to kill the last NM but in a more epic way with CS at the begining and after the kill or after wipe.

Open world content doesn't make the world anymore alive then it already is. its the same as instance but people get to watch you kill the NM instead of being on your own. People will still just teleport to closest camp and run to NM. Will be a straight path to and from camp-NM the rest of the map will still be dead pointless and mute. seriously the only difference between the 2 are. A. only one group gets to do open world content rest get to watch. B. people feed their Ego's having people watch them kill so they can brag and start fights with other shells. What keeps the world alive and open is Leveling camps. spread out leveling camps all over the maps/zones so people are everywhere. As content gets better and people get higher Area's die off. sad fact in all games.

*Browses the internets*

... I don't get it.

What's a Pop NM and respectively a ZNM? Briefly and clear please? =)

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Originally Posted by elreed

like in the strongholds that you need 2-3 parties to kill the last NM

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You can kill them with 6-8 comfortably >.>

anyhow dynamic world events are great and all but the current engine can't handle it really. Throwing parties together or using vicinity invite for players is way more than crapstool tools can muster. Maybe 2.0. Maybe.

I approve on lot-poping NMs.

Objective: Kill all <enter mob name> in area. Then you have a NM spawn!

It's not easy creating an MMORPG. I have to hand it to the DEV team, they have their work cut out for them!

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Originally Posted by Renshi

*Browses the internets*

... I don't get it.

What's a Pop NM and respectively a ZNM? Briefly and clear please? =)

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A pop NM is a NM that pops when you trade in a certain item. A ZNM is much the same, but there is a network of tiers that works like a pyramid of some sort where you kill the lower tier pop NMs to get pop items for the next tier.

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Zeni Notorious Monster (ZNM) events are spawned by trading a pop item to ??? around Aht Urhgan. The pop items are obtained from Sanraku at (E-8) in Aht Urhgan Whitegate in exchange for zeni. When spawned, the pop item is lost and the monster appears. A full alliance of 18 can engage these ZNMs using one pop item. These are normal battles, not battlefields.

The amount of zeni that a pop item costs varies with level of demand (a player purchasing a pop item will cause its price to rise by 100 zeni, and it will gradually drop back down over time) and with the tier of ZNM (higher tiers cost more zeni). Following a server maintenance, the price for all pop items is set to max; however, it can go higher than the max listed.

After defeating a ZNM, a "trophy" item bearing the defeated ZNM's name is dropped. It can be taken back to Sanraku, who will give you a colored seal key item in return. The seals allow the bearer one chance at purchasing a higher tier item (zeni is still required for purchase). These are temporary key items and once you purchase a pop item from Sanraku for a higher tier ZNM, the lower tier seal is lost. For example: If you kill Cheese Hoarder Gigiroon in Tier 1 you will get a Key ItemMaroon Seal upon turning in Gigiroon's Cape; now you want to kill Iriz Ima in Tier 2. As soon as you purchase the pop item for Iriz Ima your Key ItemMaroon Seal will be lost. In order to purchase another, you must turn in another trophy item that bestows a Key ItemMaroon Seal.

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I actually preferred how sky and sea worked to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

*Browses the internets*

... I don't get it.

What's a Pop NM and respectively a ZNM? Briefly and clear please? =)

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A Pop NM does not necessarily require an Item, it simply means the enemy is manually spawned, and typically auto-claimed, by the person who wishes to kill it. It's purpose is to allow for players to combat High Level NMs in the open world without unnecessary restriction without having to deal with excessive competition or kill stealing.