DPS requirements to unlock duties?

If there's glamours and incentives, thats kind of pointless if they must clear it before proceeding. It's just something they must do once before each new extreme content. Thats a 3 minute test once or twice every patch cycle. How could you possibly be against that? It's jsut a simple knowledge check of how your skills work. 3 minutes before the fight to see if you'd be a drag or not. It doesn't need incentives or bells or whistles. Its something you do one per role you want to go in as just as a bare minmum showing of your class mastery.

When Nidhogg Story mode was released, it took me 12 hours to beat it in Duty Finder. While running trial roulette the first two weeks of the patch, I had a 10 percent success rate in Nidhogg Story mode because we failed to beat the 3 add DPS check. We either vote abandoned or failed after an hour of trying.

Considering I was able to beat the A8S SSS striking dummy at ilvl 220 with a Sephirot weapon, Nidhogg Story mode was too hard to carry newbies in Duty Finder. I understand there are a lot of new players that do not know how to play. Doing complex rotations takes dedication and practice. I do not think I ever experienced anything more depressing in Duty Finder. I just hope these DPS players learned how to play properly.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

I just hope these DPS players learned how to play properly.

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Why would they? There is 0 incentive to get better in this game and every time someone suggests something that would force people to care atleast a bit about their job it gets shot down immediately. Not sure why it is so hard to understand that for other players this game is supposed to be fun too and not an unpaid job. And unfortunately this game ends up being unpaid job every time you are carrying x other people in DF because they "would rather leave the game than go to a dummy and learn something."

And I am not sure what is the point of SSS when the people who need it the most have no idea it is even in the game considering how optional it is. Well, my FC uses it when giving ranks to new people and deciding who we will help with extreme primals etc. (to make sure everyone deserves the help and isn't just being carried) but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

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I enjoy doing the dolls myself, I challenged myself to beat nid ex with all my 218 DPs classes & suceeded after some practice(latency issues for NIN) & it was fun to me but most people will not have that thought process.

MOST people will think it's impossible after trying a few times & give up, complain they have to do elite raider dps just to do content, say ff14 panders to raiders & unsub. Why? Bc that is how (most)people are. That is why. If they are terrible at their job in the first place chances are they don't care enough to try to get better, they just wanna do all the content. With more incentives they might be persuaded to try harder but honestly I still think it would end badly if SE did this. I'm for it, but it might be a bad decision for holding subs aka making money.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Imoen have you ever even done the Stone Sea and Sky test? Like any of them? The way you speak makes it seem like you haven't or even done a lot of hard content in pugs. You seem so against it and your entire argument comes down to "but it wouldn't be fun" I've sttated several ways on how this could help out and yet you disregard all of it with non answers and misdirections

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Depends on what you mean by, "hard"? Coil? Alex Savage? EX? Then ya I have. (not the latest iteration mind you, not going to lie, as I already said I have been out a while)

With all due respect, no I haven't seen you suggest any "several" ways on how this could help. I even went back and read all your posts when I read this. (thought I may have missed something)

What I read, boiled down to... "DPS hard check for n00bs" = "Save veterans time and headache"

If I missed some nuance in there, then I implore you to re-iterate, because I don't see it. Not trying to be difficult or any of those negative things, swirling in peoples brains. I'm just being critical, no different than anyone else being critical of other players that they shamelessly post about on these forums as if they are private or something, as if others can't read it. No different than players being critical of game content. This is the same thing.

I don't see how this helps, you haven't explained how this helps, except a perfect world scenario which would never exists even with this system.

I'm pointing out that ...

A. The system doesn't promote better play, it just teaches people how to do that "one" thing. No different than any other fight in the game

B. It is fundamentally boring from the perspective of someone first joining end game or the game in general. (could easily push people away from playing, if the moogle quests in churning mists didn't, like it or not, veterans quit out/get bored, new players are needed/wanted, don't push them away with snooze dummies.)

C. Even if the system existed, it would not solve what you are trying to solve. (Which from what I gather is, less headache on your end, and again I like to assume everyone is a good person just trying to help others) People are people, they make choices, no amount of game play design hand holding, will fix that.

/rant, people on here say "oh we want less hand holding" "oh we want more random" "we want harder stuff" well you know what? It can't happen, when random happens "oh random sux" when hard happens "oh its too hard" when less hand holding occures "we need more hand holding for people" ... honestly I don't think you all know what any of you all want.

That "one" thing is very darn important. Mechanics are a fight by fight basis, but learning your rotations and knowing how to put out damage as a damage dealing class? That is something you can carry with you through all your gameplay. And quite frankly, if you not being able to blow up a dummy in 3 minutes when the game tells you "this is your target for the bare minimum that could be called contribution" ISN'T a sign that lets the player know they need to improve, then that person may be an idiot. Secondly, if a 3 minute test that you need to pass before getting into the real hard Ex content bars you from entry, then they are a problem, plain and simple.Anyone who can't spare 180 seconds once and then never again do the test most likely isn't the type of player who would even be good at the fight. The rest of the party shouldn't suffer just because a player wants to "enjoy the spectacle" That's what the normal mode fights are for. Last of all, a sign that shows you you can't meet the bare minimum is a major tool for improvement. What you are implying seems to be "lmao who cares, thats boring. Forget the rest of the team I just want to see flashing lights" and that's not good for the majority of the playerbase. This isn't meant to gate new players. It's a test to see if you're ready for the big boy content, that you know your class well enough to perform. If you honestly can't see this, you're ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

Lulz. I know at least 7 people that would drop this game so fast if they had to beat on a Dummy first. Like do you want to beat on a dummy? Nah me either. Cmon man what do you expect? People want the fight, not the dummy. I'm not saying people are ready ...but that is the rational going on.

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You don't want to be compelled to blow up a thing that just sits there doing nothing before you get to fight the real thing that does the things and all that. But

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Originally Posted by Launched

If you can't beat a static dps check on a dummy you definitely shouldn't be queueing for whatever dungeon/trial that dummy is based on, because you either don't have enough gear or you don't know how to play your job.

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is so right. If you can't beat a basic damage check on a stationary object that doesn't fight back, there is absolutely no way you can legitimately beat a damage check on a moving object that can kill you inside of two shots.

I am all for teaching people how to handle the mechanics in fights to which they are new. When they're ready. But in no reasonable scenario is someone going to put out more damage while dancing around floor patterns trying to stay alive than he would against a stationary, inactive, dummy. If someone goes into a fight lacking the gear or technique that a dummy expects him to have, he is asking for a bad time and condemning seven other people to the same.

It's not about

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Originally Posted by Imoen

What I read, boiled down to... "DPS hard check for n00bs" = "Save veterans time and headache"

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If there are seven or eight new people and only six of them have the gear and technical foundation upon which to heap the stress of mechanics and fine ability alignment, the one or two people who already can't meet the kill requirements against the easiest possible setup will prevent the prepared people from ever even seeing the later phases of the fight.

Which brings us back to

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Originally Posted by Imoen

Lulz. I know at least 7 people that would drop this game so fast if they had to beat on a Dummy first. Like do you want to beat on a dummy? Nah me either. Cmon man what do you expect? People want the fight, not the dummy. I'm not saying people are ready ...but that is the rational going on.

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only now it's not about the one person who doesn't want to lulz beat on a dummy before he has to mechanics. Because clearly, if the person in question can't blow up a dummy, he won't get to see very many mechanics anyway, and the worst part is that neither will the other seven people who are ready to kick some ass and don't think it's a lulzing matter.

what is next ? a playgame permit that all will have to study for years before you even are allowed to play ? I would say to stop asking for silly things and act like jerks as if you (generic word) were so more important then anyone else since you can play so better then anyone else...my goodness

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Originally Posted by Daranion

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Again I'm all for helping new players, but no-one is an "Idiot" they either "Know", "Don't know", or "Don't care" or they got some sort of mental issue. That doesn't make them stupid, or idiotic or w/e nonsense you want to throw out there, to push your agenda, nor does it solve the problem at hand. You might as well rename this thread to "I don't want to deal with bads"

One of your main reasons was about wasting peoples time.... but then you ask people to waste time on a dummy, I'm sorry man, that is just straight up hypocritical, you can't wait 180 seconds to explain a fight or help people through it... but you want people, including yourself, with your system to waste 180 seconds, beating on a dummy, for no reason other than to unlock a DF button, to see if they can waste more time, with people that don't want their time wasted, and end up with the same result? (Redundant Much?)

This doesn't solve anything... How? How, does it solve anything? You still haven't answered me that. "They can kill a dummy or not "... right, ok but that doesn't mean they will get that DPS IN the fight... which is kind of one of my points here, you would still have this issue. It didn't solve anything, it didn't filter anything, you just ended up with a smaller pool of players that hated it , gave up (good or bad) or people that powered through it (good or bad) and ended up in your party doing the same derpy things that you think are a problem.

AND IT IS BORING... it is boring, very boring... If you are going to test players, give them the exact fight that is there, in a practice ground, with people queing up for practice...then add it to the mentor roulette, for that fight, which I'm pretty sure they have already mentioned is coming >.> (oh wait, most mentors here would be like "ARRRRG CAN"T BEAT IT PEOPLE BAD....)

You know what , you are darned right I'm ignorant, ignorant to what the hell you are suggesting here, that somehow makes people better players, and you're arrogant to think this solves problems.

In short, beating something to a bloody pulp DOES NOT = Good rotation. Good decision making. Good habits.

My Suggestion:

After you have done your level 60 Job quest your Job NPC gives you another Quest.
It is some special version of SSS Dummy but in this you will be level synced to whatever feels right for a fresh lvl 60 character.
In this fight you enter with 3 NPC characters and the dummy will execute basic mechanics like AoE, Cone AoE, Hug mark, walk AoE mark out of group. Simple but basic stuff you should know by now. Do them wrong or don't meet DPS, let your NPCs die or meet aggro generating requirements = Duty failed, please try again.

Make this quest needed for everything after Thordan normal mode. They can even have the NPCs give hints about doing mechanic and your Job NPC will give hints about rotations.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

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I'm not disputing DPS checks, however; they already exist, we don't need dummies for that, and we already have dummies. So to be clear, are you supporting a full Dummy check on anything you enter? I can't be the only person on the planet that thinks that sounds like the most lame thing ever.

"Here play this chess game before you can play a chess game to see if you can play chess... ok now you can play chess, by the way, the other chess guys, well.... we thought they could play chess, but they really can't..... they just did really well during the warm up rounds."

Lets break this down, ok... seriously

I beat on dummy, win... "YAY, I can do a fight"

/goes on new job that I play...... not often

"Sorry guys, never done this on tank/melee/caster/heals"

You see the problem here? Do I do this stupid dummy for every single job? or is my single competence check on one job enough to support unlocking it for all? Now we do this times how many fights? Raids? Primals? ... do we go as far as dungeons, or is that ok cuz its casual? Another thread suggests it is not... "Better bring that A game"

People can dance around it all they want, this is what ilvl req is for. You SHOULD be able to beat content... best rotations? Maybe not... but this dummy thing doesn't prove anything either. All it does is prove that you were able to beat on something for a few seconds, no matter how you got there, to get good DPS. It doesn't automatically mean that people will continue, or even meet the dps checks still.. it is just a useless barrier that does nothing, and places everyone right in the position to complain about that system not being "good enough"



I would much rather place my weight behind a complete clone of the fight as a "practice" where you could pick "phases" to work on.

That could be DPS checks, heal checks, tank buster mechanic moments etc... w/e ... dummy though? Thumbs down.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

The less of a threat mobs are the more mobs the Tank will pull. If SE went back and dialed up the mobs then mob trains wouldn't be a thing because mob trains would = death.

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Can't up the mobs in a dungeon because the mob trains are because people outgear and out level the dungeon. To upscale mobs would mean a group of undergeared at the required level would = death.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

Dummies teach you this how?

Beat X HP on static object with no mechanics = win = know rotation?

Sorry not trying to be a jerk, just seriously how does this equate to better play? You promote better rotations ect... a tool tip, or tutorial can do that, a dummy is just a dummy.

Correct me if I am wrong, you are suggesting a dummy that blows up at a set HP mark based on "dps"? If that is exactly what you are suggesting then how does this differ to any, already present.

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It doesn't guarantee a higher skill ceiling but it does guarantee a minimal skill floor.

Yes you can try to learn it by doing the content. But it's also possible to get carried by 7 other people. It's also a bit selfish to try out new rotations at the expense of 7 other people who already know theirs.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

It doesn't guarantee a higher skill ceiling but it does guarantee a minimal skill floor.

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For that moment, and that moment alone.

It is a singular experience that isn't guaranteed to last, or manifest any sort of long lasting good play.

I get the idea behind it, just you end up right back at square one.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

Can't up the mobs in a dungeon because the mob trains are because people outgear and out level the dungeon. To upscale mobs would mean a group of undergeared at the required level would = death.

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You could counter this with lower sync caps though. I suspect they want people to feel powerful when they get new gear though, which is why they are set higher, there is a sense of gratification gained from going back and "owning" that thing. Granted that is just speculation, but it would make a lot of sense.

"Again like I said, I'm all for teaching new players things. Just I don't see how a "beat on hp" sponge improves that, there is still mechanics / fx / timings etc... happening, those require practice."

If you consider "DPS Check" is a in game mechanic (which it is) then you could understand where OP is coming from.

As for what SSS provides is a minimum DPS output for the said fight. And to respond to people questioning how this would help the actual fight (with mechanics) is that meeting SSS proves that you have a basic understanding of the rotation (GCD, OGCD) usage. However this does not guarantee you meeting the dps check the first time you do a fight. But what SSS does is that (same as with everyone) once you are comfortable with the boss mechanics, you will be able to align your abilities and CD usage better to increase your DPS. And for people that have cleared the SSS, it shouldn't be difficult as you know the baseline rotation. As for people that do not pass SSS, then he/she will never be able to make the necessary adjustment to meet the DPS check. This is why the OP is suggesting the SSS requirement.

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Originally Posted by Artorias112

"Again like I said, I'm all for teaching new players things. Just I don't see how a "beat on hp" sponge improves that, there is still mechanics / fx / timings etc... happening, those require practice."

If you consider "DPS Check" is a in game mechanic (which it is) then you could understand where OP is coming from.

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How far can we take this? I'm curious. So If I beat on something for a little bit, 1 time, and win at some point in time, I'm fit for duty?

That is so incredibly trusting of you.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

For that moment, and that moment alone.

It is a singular experience that isn't guaranteed to last, or manifest any sort of long lasting good play.

I get the idea behind it, just you end up right back at square one.

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Do you even have a dps job? You basically have like 2-3 rotations depending on situation. Once you learn it you're done. Until either

1.) dramatic change in skill speed in gear (unlikely)

2.) new abilities change rotation (probably not til next expansion.

It's literally no different than learning a combo in a fighting game. You practice on a dummy until you perfect the maximum damage you can out put. Then you use that muscle memory in actual play.

Please see my next post on that.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

This doesn't solve anything... How? How, does it solve anything? You still haven't answered me that. "They can kill a dummy or not "... right, ok but that doesn't mean they will get that DPS IN the fight.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

I beat on dummy, win... "YAY, I can do a fight"
[...]
this dummy thing doesn't prove anything either. All it does is prove that you were able to beat on something for a few seconds, no matter how you got there, to get good DPS.

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Here's the fundamental flaw in your understanding of the pro-dummy arguments.

The point isn't whether or not someone can put out the same amount of damage in the live fight that he can against the dummy.

The point is that he definitely cannot put out that amount of damage in the live fight if he cannot against the dummy.

Discounting damage subsumed by other jobs in a live fight via support abilities (Battle Litany, Trick Attack, etc) that are already accounted for by those individual jobs' unique dummies, your numerical output will go down in a live fight. So if someone can't dish out his expected contribution against a no mechanics, no movement, no danger dummy, he can't contribute enough to the live fight yet.

The chess bit is really reaching. A better chess analogy would be if you had to earn the right to challenge a 2500-rated Grandmaster by first completing an untimed Mate In X puzzle taken from one of his lower rated games. Finding the mate doesn't necessarily mean you'll beat the Grandmaster for realsies, but if you can't find the mate under no constraints then you should have no reasonable expectation of winning a live match with a clock and a chess god sitting across the table from you.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

One of your main reasons was about wasting peoples time.... but then you ask people to waste time on a dummy, I'm sorry man, that is just straight up hypocritical, you can't wait 180 seconds to explain a fight or help people through it... but you want people, including yourself, with your system to waste 180 seconds, beating on a dummy, for no reason other than to unlock a DF button, to see if they can waste more time, with people that don't want their time wasted, and end up with the same result? (Redundant Much?)

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The circuitous bit at the end doesn't make sense. You're describing

1. Waste three minutes killing dummy.
2. Enter live fight in DF.
3. Waste more time.
4. Have people get pissed at you for wasting time.

but really, 2-4 are already what happen now, because people think it's a waste of time to do 1. Better would be

1. Player Xiv can't kill dummy.
2. Eight other people who can kill the dummy move on to the live fight and can focus on mechanics rather than trying to determine who's missing universals/basics.
3. Nobody's time is wasted because Player Xiv now knows he needs to gear up or practice basics, and the eight people in the live fight get meaningful practice or a win.

or

1. Player Xiv can kill dummy.
2. Player Xiv is one of the eight people who move on to the live fight and can focus on mechanics rather than wasting time trying to hide an undeveloped understanding of universals/basics.
3. Nobody's time is wasted because the entire session is meaningful practice or a win.

If you're not ready for a fight, that's okay. Gear up, practice, and get ready for it. Entering the live fight needs to be about learning and meeting the specific demands of that particular fight, so that failed damage checks are about adjusting to new mechanics rather than trying to improve damage that was already too low even without the mechanics; one of those two problems is fixable in the live fight, and it's not the latter.

You might call a practice dummy a waste of time or a boring exercise in catering to the elitists, but it wouldn't just increase the value of everyone's play time in the live fight -- it would also make low damage contributions a personal matter rather than a matter that affects seven other people, and if it's a personal matter, there's less finger pointing and more self evaluation.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

...Before you can queue for a bit of hard content IE Nidhogg, or Alexander you must first beat the SSS dummy of the equivalent duty. Only after destroying the proper dummy with the duty actually unlock for you.

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There was a discussion about parsers, i'm sure is still on the first page and I thought about this same thing. The reason you want this in is good, in fact when I suggested it in another discussion I thought so too but people are already not thrilled over gated content, this just adds another layer. Now to someone like you, or that person who comes in and can play even when they have absolutely nothing to do but stare at the game with hate..yet play..or myself, coming in going to a striking dummy to unlock an EX trial isn't that time consuming. Don't get me wrong, I had the same idea and everything! This is just what I told myself and what it came to.

The reason to use it, from what you're saying, has good intentions. There is little incentive to learn your job half the time. I had a mage in Cutters Cry, heal and it was so difficult for him. Looked at his gear, he had level 10 rings..and no shoes! We were dying and we said along the lines of "it looks like you're real low on gear, that's why you're not keeping us alive" and explained how the fairy worked. I instantly thought it was going to turn into a firestorm of hate! Instead..he accepted it and said he will get better gear. So we worked with him, did a full clear..got chests and he got about three pieces of good gear along the way. His reasoning "I've never had to worry about gear until now.."

Now you're looking at it from just a DPS standpoint. I'm looking at it through an all play-style view. He was right, this game for the early levels doesn't push you like it could to be better. If you love your job, you're naturally going to have a set rotation and it might not be optimal but it will be up there. I don't look at rotations for my summoner, I think last time I did was..Binding Coil...turn..6? Yet, DPS isn't bad. Now I am guilty of being lazy, that tells me I'm spending too much time on the game and it's time to get off. So by no means do I feel as if I'm some natural miracle player that does great 100% of the time.

The dummy check would make people learn their jobs, but to what extent? People want to feel as if they've progressed by themselves to a point. To block things at this level of the game means people have to make this feel more like a chore/job/study session. And they will. Those who won't mind it will go in clear the DPS check and keep on trucking. Yet, this isn't in there to help people like yourself or some of the others here who posted and give off the "I'm awesome!" vibe. It's for the guy who this might be his first MMO and it just hasn't clicked.

I think your intentions are good, I just think that adjusting content on the way up to have people naturally progress would do more in the long run. We already have it set up, they are just too forgiving. For example, the Guildhest that has the iron giant, that spawns the skellies so you learn to kill adds. Well the thing dies so quickly..why bother? I rush through to get my tomes, new players go "wow that was easy!" and doesn't learn a thing. Have each add place Regen and a Defense buff on the boss so they learn "when adds come, kill or you're going to have a bad time" ..bring back the Demon wall bees! Remove the walls and let the landslides come! If you don't have to dodge for over 50 levels of content, you will not learn to. Put in the right stuff..well..gonna learn today!

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Originally Posted by Rongway

If you're not ready for a fight, that's okay.

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Ah if only everyone thought like that. The chess bit was just an example you can insert any darned competitive game you want there. The point remains, it doesn't mean you're ready. Nor does it mean they will somehow magically remain at the level presented to them during that moment. (are we repeating this weekly? Monthly? every time you try to enter?) If non of those.... then there is no value to be had from such a system. If any of those, then it gets annoying ... fast.

No, I get the point in it, while I appreciate the time you spent on your detailed run down. I already get it... however.

It still doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

-It is still point blank an extra barrier for little to no reason.
-It offers little to no gain at the risk of alienating people.
-You will still have "bad groups".
-You will still fail DPS checks.
-it doesn't teach anything. It is a raw Bool check... (True/False.)

so the idea is block the content behind more DPS checks? are you serious?, i know many want other players bcm better but putting barriers in the game make it worse, more bcs is not problem of the game itself, is a playerbase one, if you want a way to improve the playerbase is more easy change the mentor sistem where you (the mentor) and x players whit the same job get in to a special SSS duty by mentor roulette, (the mentor need to beat this duty before) for lvl 50 or 60, the duty ends when the players beat the dummy in X time like now, the job of the mentor is teach hem how to make the DPS they need to do it, and for tanks make the dummy dealt some tank busters apart of the dps of course, and for healers make 3-7 dummys lose hp ramdomly and make the healers have it all alive to the end time, meaby add some enemies dummys too if you want to dealt dps with the healer.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

It still doesn't change my opinion on the matter.

-It is still point blank an extra barrier for little to no reason.
-It offers little to no gain at the risk of alienating people.
-You will still have "bad groups".
-You will still fail DPS checks.
-it doesn't teach anything. It is a raw Bool check... (True/False.)

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It's for a pretty big reason: improving the average skill of players you get matched with
It's a big gain by making runs faster and causing less wipes.
Bad groups will be less common.
Failing dps checks won't happen as often.
It teaches you more than that. Failing/clearing a dummy with different times lets you know how good/bad your rotation is. Running the dummy multiple times and comparing results lets you know how consistent you are.

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Originally Posted by Launched

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No, these are all things you guys are "hoping" it would do.

Which isn't a problem at all, you all can keep on hoping. I don't think anyone would be against that situation. (The things you mentioned above.)

This game is designed to pursue multiple jobs on the same character. For this system to be of any value what so ever, you would need to repeat this, over and over, both for job switching, and time in game.

If it is a one and done thing, it has no value. That is just the truth of it.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

No, these are all things you guys are "hoping" it would do.

Which isn't a problem at all, you all can keep on hoping. I don't think anyone would be against that situation. (The things you mentioned above.)

This game is designed to pursue multiple jobs on the same character. For this system to be of any value what so ever, you would need to repeat this, over and over, both for job switching, and time in game.

If it is a one and done thing, it has no value. That is just the truth of it.

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If you force someone to learn 1 character, in a fighting game really well. The more easy it is to pick up another character. Extremely similar to this game

For instance once you teach yourself weaving OGCDs on one job you automatically understand it on other jobs.

Once again it raises the skill floor for content.

I won't see boot shine spammers or ice mages if there is a dummy gate.

Something the old static leader I had said when trying out new people is what the thread wants to address, but some people are just missing the point: "I can teach you the fight, but I wont teach you your job".

Basically, op just is looking for something to filter out people who cant perform the basic requirements with a system that is already in the game, so it wouldn't be needed to make something entirely new for that.

Personally, if the SSS requirement was once per each role every so often was the solution picked, i wouldn't mind, but like people insists on pointing out, is that it just blocks people and don't directly help them improve, which would be a "new" problem, the issue with people not knowing how to play their jobs properly has nothing to do if they are or aren't barred by the SSS. If they arent barred by the SSS they will get barred by other players directly, which already happens anyway, and in my opinion is worse then having to spend 3 min on a dummy trying to figure out your rotation...

Now if the issue with the sss is that it doesnt teach players, then what should be done is having a rework of the Mentor system, if you cant beat the SSS you can just try again later, or ask for a Mentor that would have done a new kind of trial especially made to test out mentors in specific jobs, allowing them to give help and interact 1 on 1 with someone that is having issues with their class. *which is what i hoped the mentor system would be initially... not that mess of a chat channel*

Not having a parser, or playing on ps is in theory not an excuse to not know how much dps you are doing, since there are online dps calculators that measure your dps based of the results you pulled from SSS.

I actually like OmegaStrongtan idea, as soon as you finish the lv 60 job quest, have something hard that teaches you more less what you should be doing, kinda like the novice hall.

While I can understand that for some people having to do SSS and failing seems like would demotivate the person to play the game, these same people must also acknowledge that people not having idea what they are doing at lv 60 is a frequent thing, causing a lot of vote abandons all around. Another thing is also understanding that while for some "giving a reward" for passing a possible mandatory SSS would defeat the point of it, you have to accept that compromises must be made, if you block too many people from doing the stuff, eventually you might run out of people to do stuff with.

So in the end, what we need is not only something to filter, but a way to also nudge people towards playing properly, Ideally SSS and Mentor would be the solution, but as they are right now, none of them work towards this by themselves.

I'm sure people won't like me for saying this. Just disable duty finder for end game; it has no place there. Randoms will always be a mixed bag and Duty Finder kills player motivation to socialise, build groups and organise things.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

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Ok, not quite sure why you are explaining that to me. People are still people, and it is still for that "one time".

You assume that the skill floor stays up. (if it even went up at all) I'm saying, that it won't necessarily stay up, and you will still run into problems. It's not a magic bullet that is going to stop you from seeing dem ice mages, there are all sorts of factors that can make a players skill level or knowledge drop off, I'm not going to go into that.

You guys are like looking at it like some magic door that's only going to let good players through. When more likely everyone that wants to get through, will by any means (Which doesn't necessarily mean they went out and learned their job) and anyone that doesn't will just be like "I'm out of here".

Then you bask in the glory of ... wait... was that an ice mage just now? o.O "how the hell he get here?"

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

Randoms will always be a mixed bag

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Yup.

Arnt the neccesary code already in place? Why not at 50, 60 and 60 hard add new "hall of the novices". For dps you check dps and more difficult aoes, for tanks: adds and using tank defensive abilities, for healers keeping a group of npcs alive. The 50 one will unlock all 50-60 content. The 60 will unlock standard lvl 60 stuff like anti tower and Alex normal. The 60 hard will unlock stuff like nidhogg and Alex savage. Once you complete these then there is no ilvl required to unlock specfic dungeons. You could even put it in the msq as a standard quest to "test" your abilities. At least that sounds more heroic than gathering x stones or whatever.

At each tier players can be given an achievement, title, or other rewards.

Why do people think testing people before they enter a dungeon or scoring them will change the way they play.

Terrible players will be just as common because they are rarely bad because they lack the basic skills to do a half decent job (a pulse). They are just lazy, they will never see you again so the performance they put out is negligent.

Random grouping is going to forever and always suck.

SSS should have been mandatory from the beginning, terrible mistake it wasn't, I actually expected it to be, it is currently worthless I don't know anyone that use it.
Wiping at 2 fausts/hummelfaust because of dps doing less than 500 in full 230 is so tiresome.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

Randoms will always be a mixed bag[...]

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No doubt. But I see nothing wrong with ensuring people have the theoretical capability of clearing the content before letting them into the content - I mean, that's what minimum iLvL is already trying to do, it's just even less efficient at it. It's a notion that you cannot really oppose without also approving of i45 people in your Expert runs. I haven't dared pulling such a thing off myself yet, but...I wager you'd be kicked even by the more lenient type.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

Ok, not quite sure why you are explaining that to me. People are still people, and it is still for that "one time".

You assume that the skill floor stays up. (if it even went up at all) I'm saying, that it won't necessarily stay up, and you will still run into problems. It's not a magic bullet that is going to stop you from seeing dem ice mages, there are all sorts of factors that can make a players skill level or knowledge drop off, I'm not going to go into that.

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Imoen I'm really not sure why you keep saying that clearing the dummy might be only for that 'one time'. The skill rotations in this game are fairly strict. Anyone not following their rotation will NOT clear the dummy. You're making it sound like someone would clear the dummy by button mashing. That simply wouldn't happen. The only way anyone would clear it is if they bothered to read their tooltips and play properly.

The reason the OP is asking for this is because currently there are a LOT of players, even at level 60, who never even use half of their abilities because they genuinely think they do good damage by just spamming a couple of them. The ONLY way these players will EVER be prompted to try and improve is if they are faced with a situation where they cannot progress and they don't have anyone else to blame for the failure. That is precisely what SSS was created for, but the players that need to use it the most are precisely the ones that never will. The OP's suggestion is to change that and force them to do the SSS trials so they have no choice but to acknowledge that they need to improve.

It won't stop every problem with low DPS in content but it will greatly reduce it.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

It won't stop every problem with low DPS in content but it will greatly reduce it.

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It won't greatly reduce it at all. The problem with wiping is less to do with people not able to do good rotations or even adequate ones, they just do not want to do it during the run or they lose focus, they do not know the mechanics or just have not got the hang of that specific fight yet (all of which impacts their DPS output). This lame idea by the OP does nothing to change that, all it will do is piss people off because will be sticking yet another mandatory gating between them and the actual content they want to do beyond the gating which already exists.

There is a reason why SSS was made optional and it is some of the same reasons why this idea is bad, firstly the ability to do an adequate rotation is not the major issue with wiping in runs as I explained above plus the amount of people pissed off by making it mandatory would be vastly more detrimental to SE as a company and FF14 as a community than the microscopic decrease in wipes that might happen in runs if was made mandatory. I understand how wiping in runs can annoy people but this idea is barking up the wrong tree and will just increase the amount of annoyed people.

SE understands that and that is why they made SSS optional in the first place. You can be sure that SE already looked at the pros and cons of mandatory vs optional when introduced SSS and they chose optional because in all honesty it was the smarter option. This idea will do much more harm than good and it is born out of frustration but seriously lacks an adequate amount of forethought put into it, forethought which SE already put into the issue when decided between making it mandatory or optional in the first place.

At least it would ensure that everyone present in content is actually capable of beating that content. The difference between a first-timer that can beat the SSS dummy and one that can't is that the former needs only learn the mechanics specific to the fight at hand and they will clear it, whereas the latter will never clear it even if they know down to the last autoattack what will happen.

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Originally Posted by Imoen

Like if you had the option to beat on a wood post or go into space and smack Knights of the Round, or Some epic Rock dude or... you know (insert any big fight here).. what would you chose? No seriously, What would you chose? If you had to fight a stick before every dungeon, would you add it to the "ya im getting better" pile or the " oh look another npc told me to do a thing, so I did it" pile. I suspect the "Why am I still playing this?" pile.

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How about instead of beating a dummy, they implement a gold star system?

• A scoreboard pops up after a duty, and everyone gets a bronze/silver/gold star based on damage/healing/dodging/mitigation
• Gold Star gives you an achievement, so once is enough
• A gold star is possible in minimum ilvl gear
• A gold star in HM primal unlocks the EX version
• A gold star in A8N unlocks A5S, and is required for A9N at release
• A gold star in VA unlocks Wiping City
• A gold star in 3.2 dungeons unlocks 3.4 dungeons
• Gold Star requirements are only for content from latest major patch, so 3+ month old content has no gold star requirement

I see no problem with SSS requirements. SSS does the following:

-Tests to see if you know your rotation
-Tests to see if you can meet a DPS check at your current ilevel
-Sets the DPS check for the dummy with the expectation that your DPS in the fight will drop off to what's actually needed for the fight when handling mechanics

If you can't clear the dummy at the appropriate ilevel, it shows you don't have your job down. Go back and learn it. If you can't learn it, come back to the dummy later when you have more gear. At that point, overgearing it will let you overcome fundamentally not knowing how to play your job well. Either way, by the time you beat the dummy, you won't be a detriment to your party.

There's too many people that don't know how their jobs work. Can't beat Niddhog story mode of all things. Barely show up on the enmity bars. I mean, you'll show up on the enmity bars just hitting your basic weaponskill over and over. Some people are actually putting out less DPS than they would just spamming the 1 in their 123 combo.

If you can't do your part in meeting a DPS check in a story mode fight of all things, you don't need to be doing that fight. At the end of the day, it's a cooperative game. If you can't pull your weight, you should refrain from joining the team.

I'm not opposed to this idea, even if it could be tedious to go through it on all my jobs.

If someone is unable to beat the dps check of the dummy (which is tuned for the content said dummy represents)...
Then they will not be able to provide the necessary dps for the dps check in the content.