Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

The only way you will fix the DF is to change how the NA player-base approaches their communal responsibilities.

Right now, if content is an empty room, when people use the DF, they walk into said room, defecate all over the floor, and then we all wonder why nobody wants to eat, sleep, or live there anymore.

You need to make people care about their actions. In the end, it boils down to accountability. And, while emphasizing individual accountability, you also need to make sure people understand they sink or swim together.

Using a grading system is fine but the implementation in this thread is horrific. It doesn't incentivize people to work as a community and only further pushes people into their rugged individualism.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

16 years of playing mmos and I've never seen a mmo so dumbed down and hand holding (except savage), that people still fail at it :/

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It's possible that because I've played other MMOs like FFxi, Tera, ect, for so long that I've already done this dance and that i'm blind to the need of this kind of system. That this game is in fact hand-holding. Because I've never honestly saw the game as hand holding, not sure why I didn't think of it before you mentioned it. I'm the type because of FFxi to make parties and surround myself with like minded individuals to get things done.

It's natural to me so it does baffle me when i suggest make groups yourself and people just ignore the idea and focus back on the idea that DF needing to be changed... I Mean, even with Shiva Ex, I only had 2-3 friends on at any given time, so I had to get random people to fill in the gaps. Met some good players making Party Finders for all of the primal fights. We still do stuff to this day. So I dunno.

I'm still against it. But everyone knows that lol. I'm fundamentally an optimist and I believe in peoples ability to do good in and out of game.

And that's my last comment on all this stuff... I need to do other things like work, haha. Hope nothing too radical or crazy that hurts people comes of all this is all.

Vindictus EU had a pretty good system. After finishing a fight successfully, you'd get your dps as a rank and your place in that rank. You'd also see who was the #1 dps on that party.

http://puu.sh/pPG63.png

You were also attributed a rank that didn't had any impact on anything, just a "you did good and you got SSS on this fight".

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Originally Posted by mp-please

Vindictus EU had a pretty good system. After finishing a fight successfully, you'd get your dps as a rank and your place in that rank. You'd also see who was the #1 dps on that party.

http://puu.sh/pPG63.png

You were also attributed a rank that didn't had any impact on anything, just a "you did good and you got SSS on this fight".

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This would be something I would like, I'll paste this in the front page if you don't mind :)

Keep the grading system idea because we DO need some way for the game to provide feedback on how we're performing outside of dummy tests and third party parsers, but having it affect anything about how queuing up works is absurd.

Alternatively, this would be a good way to boot out the bad prestige mentors too. You can even go a step further with combat mentors - their grades could be made PUBLIC on their search info (though done in a way that you'll see what grades they're getting as which class, as there's currently no way to tell which classes each individual mentor is good at playing, and there's so many classes that mentors shouldn't be expected to be good at every role).

If their grade dips because they're an all around ass and they're taking that public heat as a result, they'll be taking that crown off real quick.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

But I don't think it's such a huge problem that we need to make an entire ranking system to Separate our community... It says some real bad shit about our society if we need that, and that we're okay with that... Especially if other servers are just fine?

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Things mostly happens on NA/EU server (?):
- Ppl leave right at beginning of Final step of faith (niddy story), cause we not gonna clear it on DF! (I even saw PF for it)
- Ppl leave right at beginning of Aurum Vale (cause who gonna spend 50mins for a dungeon while penalty only 30mins)
- Ppl spam vote abadon right after 1 or 2 wipes in 24man, or keep wiping at 1st boss
- Primals Ex on DF when still relevant: near 0% chance to clear or never pop (and lot of people queued with the mind set: "I'm going in blind cause it's fun, don't ruin it for me, I will ignore all your writing about tacts and figure it out myself")
- Ice mage
- Jumping healers (who jumps all around casting cure or spamming medica 2 once awhile while everyone is 99%)
- Medica 2 whm

The list goes on and on... but that is never a real problem cause everyone is having fun :) And things will be nerfed eventually.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Keep the grading system idea because we DO need some way for the game to provide feedback on how we're performing outside of dummy tests and third party parsers, but having it affect anything about how queuing up works is absurd.

Alternatively, this would be a good way to boot out the bad prestige mentors too.

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Yeaaahhh... OP wants this to affect duty finder, so the idea is absurd in that sense already.

I don't really think any of this is necessary. If you run DF you should just accept whatever people you are paired with, however poor they may be. Anyone that has any experience of DF knows there are same bad bad players out there, but you just suck it up.

I did however like the bit about a "rating" being given at the end of the dungeon, just as an overview to how well you did

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Originally Posted by Normalizer

Things mostly happens on NA/EU server (?):
- Ppl leave right at beginning of Final step of faith (niddy story), cause we not gonna clear it on DF! (I even saw PF for it)
- Ppl leave right at beginning of Aurum Vale (cause who gonna spend 50mins for a dungeon while penalty only 30mins)
- Ppl spam vote abadon right after 1 or 2 wipes in 24man, or keep wiping at 1st boss
- Primals Ex on DF when still relevant: near 0% chance to clear or never pop (and lot of people queued with the mind set: "I'm going in blind cause it's fun, don't ruin it for me, I will ignore all your writing about tacts and figure it out myself")
- Ice mage
- Jumping healers (who jumps all around casting cure or spamming medica 2 once awhile while everyone is 99%)
- Medica 2 whm

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Most of these things I have never seen in my server (Oceanic server).
-I've never seen anyone leave at the beginning of Final Step of Faith OR the original Steps of Faith. (only heard someone complain ONCE)
-Never seen anyone leave at the beginning of Aurum Vale.
-Only seen a Vote Abandon once, after 4 deaths to Ozma. The first time it didn't pass. It passed after the 5th wipe.
-Pretty much everyone previews the gimmicks of the fight before entering. I've only met one person who said it is more fun not to do so.
-I've only seen one ice mage ever, and they were not a Japanese (a different server on the same data center.)
-Only people I've seen spam Medica II were not a Japanese (a different server on the same data center.)

Having a grading system isn't going to change people's behavior. People will still just do whatever they want because they want to do as they like, with little respect for others in the group.

Failure to consider the other group members, have effective communication, strategy, and cooperation is the reason why people don't clear content.

More or less, I think it comes down to a difference in culture. A grading system probably won't change that.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

A system of this sort defeats the entire purpose of the duty finder in it's entirety.

You want a hardcore group to play with find them on your server make a Party Finder or deal with what your randomly assigned because that's what the duty finder is randomly assigned people.

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The purpose of the duty finder is to speed up queue times. Not to make the good people carry the bad.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

To be fair though, B should go on the left, A in the middle.

--------A-------
--- B-------C---

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That's not how any 24 man raid works that I can think of, the one that jumps out the most is last boss of Void Ark. At the split, the lamia (middle) has aggro on B tank. Snake on her left has hate on A, snake on right has aggro on C.

Back on subject of splitting the player base for DF content, it would drive bads out of the game. That may sound like a good thing at first, until you have to put up with the longer queue times that comes along with it, and less content due to fewer subscribers.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

That's not how any 24 man raid works that I can think of, the one that jumps out the most is last boss of Void Ark. At the split, the lamia (middle) has aggro on B tank. Snake on her left has hate on A, snake on right has aggro on C.

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Except the snake on the left goes to B in the middle? Go do it again and take a good look. Left snake has automatic hate on B's tank, lamia has hate on A's when they spawn before anyone touches it. I assume you're looking at it after the tanks pull them, but I can assure you, before any of the tanks touch it, the lamia is on A's

Even on Amon, those snakes go in the same triangle pattern with A at the top, B on the left, C on right. The dullahan in LotA, notice how A always turns invisible first, yet people put A on the left, which the lines come from the top pot and not the left?

Also, just look at this. When you read it with A at the top, seeing as most places in the world read top to bottom(yeah, left to right / right to left, but top lines then going down etc), it'd read as ABC, but with B at the top, it'd read BAC. You have to remember, it's not setup in a straight line, they setup the fights in a triangle for parties.


After reset, I'll be back with screenshots of right when the adds spawn and which tank they have hate on before they pull.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Back on subject of splitting the player base for DF content, it would drive bads out of the game. That may sound like a good thing at first, until you have to put up with the longer queue times that comes along with it, and less content due to fewer subscribers.

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Well, sure sounds like a game thats 99% instanced isn't that great of an idea then >_> Everything instanced also somewhat kills the chance of there being a real community since the majority of the time you're doing things with people you'll never see again :/

Also, do you really think the amount of content would change? We already lost an extra dungeon, while SE just added more stuff that should be in game to the mogstation. I can promise you, the mogstation money and a good portion of our subscriptions aren't going back into the game, especially when they talk about how understaffed they are and how little content actually comes out, with a good portion of an update focusing on glamour or dead on arrival content. Sure, an RP icon works for people heavily into RP, but couldn't that have been better spent on actually giving us content to keep us busy and not having a lot of people finish everything an update has to offer in a couple hours / day or two, then have nothing to really do for 3 months?

With as much money as SE claims to make off XIV/mog station, you'd expect them to be able to continue to give us 3 expert dungeons while also adding new content >_> You know, like a lot of mmos, rather than reducing the overall content.

I can 100% guarantee you that most of XIV/mog station's profits go to other projects, like XV, whatever mobile games SE makes, KH3 etc, just like how a good portion of XI's profit went to funding XIV not once, but twice , yet XI still gave us more content to keep us busy with than XIV does currently >_>

I do not think the game has any need for a ranking system the likes of which OP describes. I do however believe that the toxic culture that permeates the yank servers really needs to change, especially in the elitist cliques.

I disagree 100% with the OP. This mentality went all the way back to FFXI when people had the illusion that JP parties were better. This is just another way for Elitists to dictate everyone else.

Again this bullsit of categorizing people?

"Hey man, I'm pro, I want play ONLY with pros!! Fuck the news!!!"

Still don't understand this obsesion with put walls and discriminate people. THis mentality is destroying the FFXIV community by creating a toxic behaviur and the hated word "Elitist". But there is no other word to describe this.

You forgot that Duty Finder is designed to pair will all kind of players and help news to clear content.

Yes please. I'll gladly take longer queues if it means I only get matched with other S ranks. A higher chance to get good dps players might even convince me to queue as tank again.

Oh, but Xlantaa, didn't you get the memo? If you don't play how the Elitists think you should, you shouldn't be playing.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Again this bullsit of categorizing people?

"Hey man, I'm pro, I want play ONLY with pros!! Fuck the news!!!"

Still don't understand this obsesion with put walls and discriminate people. THis mentality is destroying the FFXIV community by creating a toxic behaviur and the hated word "Elitist". But there is no other word to describe this.

You forgot that Duty Finder is designed to pair will all kind of players and help news to clear content.

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Whats destroying this game are people who can't even do basic things and then whine, why should the game be catered to them? But I blame the devs more than the players since they give in instead of saying no this is how the is game played.

Ive seen so many new people in DF who don't even use core abilities in there sets. I shouldn't have to tell a bard to use foes or tell a paladin to use flash. But if I say something then I'm barked at for telling said person how to play. Most new players are horrible just saying.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Except the snake on the left goes to B in the middle? Go do it again and take a good look. Left snake has automatic hate on B's tank, lamia has hate on A's when they spawn before anyone touches it.

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Maybe that is the way, been a while since I tanked it. All I can remember for sure is that the people that throw the party markers out always screwed up where they should be. For pretty much everything else (even Amon and the Dullahan) alliance placement is pretty arbitrary for mechanics. The same goes for mechanics; one singularity stone goes back, one goes left for Oozma. You could do it a few other ways, but that's the way it's done on my data center.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Also, do you really think the amount of content would change? We already lost an extra dungeon, while SE just added more stuff that should be in game to the mogstation.

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Yes, I do think that if they drove away a third of current users, and made the game less friendly to noobs, content would decrease. If they're making x amount of profit now, they won't spend more if that drops, and they'll have a hard time justifying spending the same amount if their profits take a hard hit.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

If you don't play how the Elitists think you should, you shouldn't be playing.

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But is it really elitism to ask a person to play at an average amount of skill level so you're not wiping forever on things that are easy? As was said before, just a simple glance at your skills tells you a decent/good rotation that can get you through pretty much everything out atm. Use skill B after skill A, do 100 more potency. As I said in another post, I had people i220+ in Bismarck Ex yesterday and we didn't have the dps to kill both snakes. Think about that. It's not really elitist to ask someone to actually put a little bit more effort into playing, rather than just auto attacking or hitting 111111111 (no mch jokes...).

Yes, there are elitists out there who kick for no good reason, but if someone's wearing i220+ gear in content under i210(or even under i200) and their dps is terrible, something has to be done. I'm not going to ask someone to put in 110% effort all the time, I'm just asking them to put in enough so they're not dead weight and dragging the party down. XIV is easy enough as it is, so much that a monkey could play it and do well, yet I see people at 60, in current content, who can't even do things they should have learned 30-40 levels ago. Tanks who don't know how to tank. Healers who can't keep people alive. Dps who stand in everything, don't move for positionals so they do more damage(things like expert don't matter too much for that, but I do it anyways, so I'm doing my part the best I can, all the time), Mch who don't use turrets or GB (yeah, I still see that...), brd who don't use WM or songs etc

Which sounds more fun to you? Getting into a party full of i220-i240 geared people, but you're the only one who's actually doing the basic rotation to do average damage, so the party can't do dps checks or rage timers so you wipe for an hour+ then the party disbands, or getting into a party of i220-i240 geared people and everyone is at least doing the basic rotation so you can complete dps checks and rage timers and rarely, if at all, wipe?

People these days forget that a mmo is about cooperation and teamwork. If you're dead weight and not contributing at all, then yeah, theres every right to kick if you won't take the advice and improve some(again, nothing against new people, thats fine, it's just the bads and terribles who refuse to put in effort). Who else here remembers older mmos, specifically pre-WoW, when people actually gave it their all when in a party so they could actually complete content? I sure do. I also remember that when you told someone how they can improve since they're not doing well, they didn't whine and cry, call people elitists and report people, they took that advice and improved and it made the community and playerbase better overall.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

For pretty much everything else (even Amon and the Dullahan) alliance placement is pretty arbitrary for mechanics.

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Oh I know, I was just saying how it bugs me lol

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Whats destroying this game are people who can't even do basic things and then whine, why should the game be catered to them? But I blame the devs more than the players since they give in instead of saying no this is how the is game played.

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^ This. Who else here remembers when Steps of faith was fun before the bads/terribles cried to the heavens for nerfs because they couldn't handle something that's not a good ol' fashion beat off?
They're also the reason why we don't have a true pet job. Straight from SE themselves (old quote from back in 2.0) that the reason we don't have one is because "new players would find it difficult". Ok? They either don't have to play it or can learn how to play it, why dumb it down so much?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Because personal expectation level varies based on the person and when they are introduced to players they are placed with at a random queue it may not be as one expects. For example, if one person performs well as a A rank while another person performs well as a A Rank but does not perform the way that other person would have done things then they would not have met that other person's expectation level.

The Rank system only would score them based on a set system expectation level and how they achieve that level of Rank varies on each player.

On Topic:

There is also different personality of the player to consider as well with as even those who perform at a S or A Rank level of skill can still have a toxic personailty. As much as the OP believes the toxic personailty would go away or moved to low tier rank only groups in a Rank system it will not go away for a S, A, B, and etc rank as there will always be players who can perform at the Rank or a S, A, and B who have a toxic personailty despite having the skills of a S, A, and B Rank player. There are still plenty of players today who would be considered S, A, and B Rank Players who still quit a dungeon over "New Player" and/or 1 wipe due to a accident happened on another player's side, such as life emergency or DCed through different connection issues, or even if the player themselves made a mistake but does not want to acknowledge it such as not communicating with the group on how to handle bosses ,checking if the entire group is ready, assuming the group would skip a group or attack a group, and etc.

Communication is a vital part of a group that can perform well but that is something that cannot be ranked.

Then there is also issues of differences in Job's ability to perform their roles. The most being within the DPS rank as Jobs like Machinist and Bard still remains a bit lower than the other Jobs on DPS even if they perform at their best while jobs like Summoner and Dragoon can perform better on their DPS with less effort than a Machinist and Bard. The calculations will have to take into the Job's individual Min and Max DPS ability so it can rank it properly as well which can be difficult especially with "balance" issues that Jobs suffer from even now such as Bard, for example, had to under go a buff recently to perform better.

Healers Ranking would also have to calculate between DPS and Healing as well due to times when the Tank can perform well without losing a decent amount of HP and times when more DPS may be required. Scoring systems can be a bit crazy when Scoring Healing as a player may spam heal a lot to build up the Healing points even when groups do not need it.

You can ask all you want. They will or they won't. However, that's not what we're talking about. It's those elitists who demand that people play at a certain par or leave. Each one of you to me and to everyone else here are random people on the Internet. You have no right to dictate how anyone plays. If you want that power, raid with your FC.

The devs design the game to play a certain way. If they felt t was a problem, they would fix it. They listen to what the players want but do you really think they listen to the holier than thou crowd?

In expert roulette yesterday, one dps was a BLM who only used Bliz3. Then the tank and other dps kicked him.

Dam those filthy elitists

Just something to remember to all of you who go on about "elitists demanding people to play at a certain(basic/average) level or they get kicked".

If you're only pressing 1 button or "playing how you want" and dragging the pt down, that's also considered harassment, so keep that in mind if you think you're doing the right thing, which is not only a reason to kick you from the party, but can be reported also.

Asking someone to do at least their basic rotation that the game pretty much tells you (dotted outline) is the rotation, is not harassment or elitism.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

It's those elitists who demand that people play at a certain par or leave. Each one of you to me and to everyone else here are random people on the Internet. You have no right to dictate how anyone plays.

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Because you have the right to dictate how many times we're going to wipe because your ass is lazy and can't do the basic rotation so you call people elitist for asking you to do something the game taught you how to do 30-40+ levels ago? Right.

By your logic, tutorials are elitist, since they tell you how to play. Are dps checks that cause insta-wipes also elitist because you have to play a certain way or fail the fight? How about mechanics you can't ignore? Are those elitist too? What about quests that tell you where to go and to click an object? Are they elitist for telling you what to do? Let's get into some real life examples too. What about your rent/bills? Are those companies elitist for asking you to pay a certain amount or leave? How about things that are illegal? Are laws elitist for telling you that if you break them, theres consequences? If a box says "do not open or you die", is that considered elitist since it's telling you what to do / not to do?

Welcome to life, kid. Sure, you can "do what you want", but don't expect to get away with it. Theres a reason people/things tell you what to do or how to do something. It's best that you learn this lesson early on and to be a team player or else you're going to have it rough later on when someone does more than just telling you not to do / to do something. You're not cool. You're not edgy. It just makes you look terrible and selfish to ignore advice and to "do/play how you want"

Here is the thing. Would a rating system be fine? Sure

Would a rating system that actively splits up DF (as in you only get people in/near your own rating) be fine: HELL no

All that does is destroy queue times even more, split up the community, and drive people away. You guys say "i'd take longer queue times to only get with other S ranks" (nice ego assuming you would definitely get S btw) but then if this would happen you would then complain about your 30 min-hour long queues.

I'm against a rating system, but after looking at the battle records part of the chart in the OP. I'd be very interested in seeing a chart at the end of the run showing things like damage dealt/damage taken/healing done and things of that nature.

He's right that at the end of the day, we have no real power to tell him how to play.

But by that same logic, he also has no power to stop his teammates from doing as they wish and kicking him from the group. That's within their power as individuals.

You knew exactly what I meant. You're just jumping in the conversation and arguing with someone for the sake of arguing.

Keep reaching, you're about to touch the stars!

Edit: Never been kicked from a group. The majority of people saying they kick someone for being bad, I guarantee are made up.

This thread has too many elitists and the idea itself is spiteful and arrogant. Truth is you already have PF for making groups of like minded people, people which are asked to have the same play style and where you set your own rules for joining/goals and requirements. If you do not like the fact DF contains random people from different worlds, many of which are in the place for first time or have different skill levels for multiple reasons then don't use DF and stick to PF.

Snugglebutt wins

/thread

He doesn't win anything because the JP DF exists as an example of what the DF can be. That's what people are asking for.

Edit: Whoops, I think I'm totally wrong on this one!

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

This thread has too many elitists and the idea itself is spiteful and arrogant. Truth is you already have PF for making groups of like minded people, people which are asked to have the same play style and where you set your own rules for joining/goals and requirements.

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Maybe the people who want slow runs with wipes should be the ones to make party finders to find people who want to play the same way. If you're going to play a video game with other people then putting effort in should be the default and bad gameplay shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

He doesn't win anything because the JP DF exists as an example of what the DF can be. That's what people are asking for.

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Play on a JP server then. What you want for DF is what you already have for PF in that you can create a group tailored to your needs and your specifications, your desired mentality, goals or gear/skill levels.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Maybe the people who want slow runs with wipes should be the ones to make party finders to find people who want to play the same way. If you're going to play a video game with other people then putting effort in should be the default and bad gameplay shouldn't.

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^ This. Topic end, discussion over.

This is how it used to be, for about a decade. Bad gameplay was shunned and people actually put in effort and improved, improving the overall game and community. What happened in the last few years to where it got to this point where bad gameplay is encouraged? It's a shame :/ I can bet you, if cross server instances didn't exist, people would most likely put in more effort since if they were terrible, they'd be excluded from content, so they'd actually have to put in effort if they wanted to play.

People who say we should play with like minded people and same skill level seem to refuse to do the same, which feels like they're hoping to get good players to carry them. They never seem to because if they had to play with people THEIR skill level, they'd eventually come crying to us and the forums when they can't progress. That's how we ended up with Steps of Nerf.

I kid you not, I've had a few A8 and other easy things where I feel I got paired up with 7 people who are lazy or got carried. No new person message yet theres times I'm the only one who knows the mechanics and such... Posted this in the DF topic and maybe this one as an example? I forgot. But Bismarck EX last night. Full pt of i220+. Didn't have the dps to kill snakes. That right there says it all.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Play on a JP server then. What you want for DF is what you already have for PF in that you can create a group tailored to your needs and your specifications, your desired mentality, goals or gear/skill levels.

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Should we have no expectations of the basic foundation of gameplay in DF, then? Should the lack of performance be a justifiable thing on DF? I don't think anyone wants that to be the case, let alone have DF content tuned so that its passable. It creates that severe gap in ski and eventually boredom

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Originally Posted by Launched

Maybe the people who want slow runs with wipes should be the ones to make party finders to find people who want to play the same way. If you're going to play a video game with other people then putting effort in should be the default and bad gameplay shouldn't.

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Unless someone is trolling, no one ever wants wipes or slower runs beyond what the team is capable of handling or being considerate to new players watching cutscenes. But we already have in this game a PF system which allows elitist jerks and/or people who are higher skilled but not elitist to form groups of like minded, equally skilled people. If do not like the fact DF in NA and EU servers is used for new players and has a large variation in skill levels plus hate using PF to do what I just suggested then play on a JP server if prefer their method.

I mean why should DPS even try if you only need a Tank and a Healer to carry your asses around anyway.

Hell you can even go into Mhach as a Tank as PLD or WAR and probably solo the last boss no problem. Go as DRK though...I'll need that healer. I mean after orbs you can beat it no prob.

It's only in Extreme fights where everyone needs to do their job.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

But we already have in this game a PF system which allows elitist jerks and/or people who are higher skilled but not elitist to form groups of like minded, equally skilled people.

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But PF doesn't guarantee you'll get equally skilled people. Don't forget, there's people who claim they know all phases of a fight or say "farm party" but actually have no clue what to do and just joined / made the PF hoping people would carry them. Instead of going out of our way to find people of average skill or higher, should we not try to improve the minimum skill level of the playerbase instead?

Which of these options sounds better to you? Spending 30 mins - hours+ to get into something, only to find out everyone is utter crap and you just wasted that time getting in or having a playerbase with a higher minimum skill level, so when you get into something, theres less than a 5% chance of the pt being utter crap so you can actually clear it?

@snuggle

Keep your replies in the context then, because that's what the majority of advocating for. No one is expecting perfect play or high performance, but rather the bare understanding of something that the game gives you as early as level 15, as well as the consideration for your party. When you're giving the replies you are against that context, it really feels like you are justifying that sort of play and telling us to shove off with our apparently elitist expectations.