Problems with the strength of gear coming from easy mode Alexander

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Replacing gear is a natural thing in MMOs, perhaps you should get used to the fact that the gear obtained in Midas (Savage) is used to further progress in Midas (Savage), or allowing you to clear is faster when you have it on farm.

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This was not the case in 2.x, when raiding was more popular and fun :)

Normal mode should be ignored by players capable of clearing raids. Placing raiders and casual players together just frustrates both parties.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

There will be a primal with i250 weapon and like happened in 3.0 and 3.2, nearly every raider will farm it before stepping a foot into the next savage.

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I was just pointing out that crafted gear won't make A8S gear (specifically weapons) completely worthless. Even then, a 5 iLvl means it won't be as big of a deal as it was in 3.2, when the Sephirot weapon was 10 iLvls above the Gordias weapon.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

This was not the case in 2.x, when raiding was more popular and fun :)

Normal mode should be ignored by players capable of clearing raids. Placing raiders and casual players together just frustrates both parties.

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Capable raiders can still ignore normal mode rather easily. If 3.2 is any indication, it won't be all that difficult to obtain the crafted gear, while still being on par with the normal mode gear.

Also, raiding being less popular now has nothing to do with the gear rewards, but more with SE's mistake of making Gordias Savage ridiculously difficult. A3S killed off a lot of statics.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

I wouldst even be kind enough to give it that much credit, when all new content comes out based off of much lower level gear than what is available from faceroll content the previous patch cycle. Makes you overpowered for everything.

For your second point, there is zero reason to increase the power of tomestone gear because the content they release for non raiders doesn't require it. You dont need it for the content you're doing. Which is really the OP's original point, and mine.

For your third point, it will when enough people complain about it. Even casuals are getting sick of the repetitive nature of the game. I'm willing to wait it out for a bit and see what happens in 4.0. If it doesn't get better I think I may just focus my energy in real life things. I've always wanted to try tournament fishing.

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Yup. I gotta agree with this. The "catch up" patches they release, make the casual content absolutely faceroll. I mean I don't raid any more because of the same reasons you list. Day 1 of patch cycle and I'm facerolling-leeroy jenkins the new dungeons. Casuals do not need gear that OP for the dungeons its ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

I was just pointing out that crafted gear won't make A8S gear (specifically weapons) completely worthless. Even then, a 5 iLvl means it won't be as big of a deal as it was in 3.2, when the Sephirot weapon was 10 iLvls above the Gordias weapon.



Capable raiders can still ignore normal mode rather easily. If 3.2 is any indication, it won't be all that difficult to obtain the crafted gear, while still being on par with the normal mode gear.

Also, raiding being less popular now has nothing to do with the gear rewards, but more with SE's mistake of making Gordias Savage ridiculously difficult. A3S killed off a lot of statics.

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Yeah... no... yeah... I don't care how hard it is, I'm not doing it if the rewards are pointless.

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

Yup. I gotta agree with this. The "catch up" patches they release, make the casual content absolutely faceroll. I mean I don't raid any more because of the same reasons you list. Day 1 of patch cycle and I'm facerolling-leeroy jenkins the new dungeons. Casuals do not need gear that OP for the dungeons its ridiculous.

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Both you and the person you quoted seem to be misunderstanding the point of tomestone gear. It's designed for raiders who end up being unlucky with raid drops, an alternative way for them to get an upgrade outside of the RNG ones, so they don't end up with the possibility of getting nothing for several weeks. The fact that non-raiders can get this gear is a simple side-effect that also keeps plenty of non-raiders busy. (Which is the point of a P2P MMO, keeping your playerbase busy so they keep paying.)

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Originally Posted by KeluBehemoth

Yeah... no... yeah... I don't care how hard it is, I'm not doing it if the rewards are pointless.

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The 8-man raid rewards gear that's the absolute best for at least 3 months, following another 3 months where non-raiders can slowly upgrade their tomestone gear to the same iLvl (with the exception of the weapon).

If you think half a year of having the best gear in the game is pointless, then that's fine. Perhaps raiding in this game isn't the thing for you.
When I still raided, I didn't really care much for the gear upgrades, it was just a means to progress further. I just enjoyed raiding with a group of friends, because running content with them was fun to me. (Unfortunately, A3S killed that static)

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

When I still raided, I didn't really care much for the gear upgrades, it was just a means to progress further. I just enjoyed raiding with a group of friends, because running content with them was fun to me. (Unfortunately, A3S killed that static)

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This is the truth for me too (except it was FC drama, lies, selfishness, and finger pointing that made me walk away from my then-FC static). I enjoyed the challenge and overcoming said challenge with friends, but let's not kid ourselves: to the victor goes the spoils, and we do want something nice for being the few that rise to the challenge. It's not about who deserves what better, but we all want a reward proportional for time and effort no?

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Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

For the challenge and sense of accomplishment. Everything else in this game is catered for the casual community.

I don't think many people raid for gear. They raid because they want to put their skills to the test, to actually make USE of that gear.

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One of the two problems I have with raiding is even the challenge is only "temporary" today you cleared a8s, wooo, few months from now having a clear in a8s will be worthless, so there's no lasting "sense of accomplishment"

the other problem with raiding is the gear is "junk" many of my frequently played jobs are sitting between 225 and 235 and I've not really "tried" to gear up it just happens. the reason I don't "try" is because it's pointless trying to get a piece that'll be replaced in a month....

The Loot doesn't incentivise players to raid,
Neither does the challenge...

and thus many people don't even bother trying...

I love a challenge but a challenge needs to stay a challenge in order to maintain a lasting sense of accomplishment...
be almost like passing your driving test only for them to completely abolish the driving test a week later..... suddenly the fact you passed is meaningless

Ehhh. To be honest it just sounds like a heap of 'Waaaaaaah, I don't care if I have the glory and prestige of having unique looking armor if everyone's just as strong too!!'

Look, raiding ain't everyone's bag. Let them be on equal footing, because there ain't a snowball's chance in hell this is anything beyond 'Look at me, I'm better than you' mentality.

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Originally Posted by Asmodai

Yeah really, the only reason I have not pushed for clearing raid content in this game as I have in others is in three months I am going to be able to get the same ilvl gear from tomes. It might not be perfectly optimized as you could do with a mix of gear, but why waste your time raiding?

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So you beat savage, congrats here some gear for you that has currently no use as of right now and nobody really cares that you have it on or notices it. See you in 3.5 months when you can toss that gear you spent weeks trying to earn in the trash. Oh hey it patch time check out these new Tomestone gear that we have, make sure to toss that old savage gear away though. See you in the next patch when you get to do it all over again.

What SE needs to do us wake up and make content worth doing for awhile. I had more fun with 1.0 then what we have now.

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Originally Posted by ZacEvans

Ehhh. To be honest it just sounds like a heap of 'Waaaaaaah, I don't care if I have the glory and prestige of having unique looking armor if everyone's just as strong too!!'

Look, raiding ain't everyone's bag. Let them be on equal footing, because there ain't a snowball's chance in hell this is anything beyond 'Look at me, I'm better than you' mentality.

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This is not at all what the thread is about and if you think it is I don't think you've read any posts. The point is that everyone is already on equal footing because of the odd-numbered catch up patches. Even if you never touch the raid, if you play regularly during the odd numbered patches you are at 98% of a fully geared raider's power. The problem is that for both the raider and non-raider, gearing up during the odd patch is completely pointless since the new easy mode/crafting will reward better gear than the stuff you raided/spent tomes for and you can get it nearly instantly. You spend time getting gear and never get to use it outside of standing around in town.

It also basically means that if a raid group doesn't care about lolminions, lolmounts, or dyes, they can stop logging in after their first final boss clear and be no worse off when the next raid patch drops. It's one less worthwhile thing to log in and do in a game that's already starved for worthwhile stuff to log in and do.

blubb.

i thinkthey should increase the ilvl of the alex savage gear by 10 lvl. that will make the raid gear more rewarding and will lead to a headstart for the next raid-tier, without being too far ahead (the craftet gear and alex normal will have the same ilvl). if you lower the ilvl of alex normal gear you will make alex normal totally pointless.
with this theay can also increase the ilvl of the 24-people raids to make them more rewarding too.

as example:

craftet gear is 220
alex normal is 220
tome gear is 230
upgraded tome gear s 240
alex savage gear is 250
24-people raid gear is 240

next patch

craftet gear is 250
alex normal gear is 250
tome gear is 260
upgraded tome gear is 270
alex savage gear is 280
24-people raid gear is 270

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

This is not at all what the thread is about and if you think it is I don't think you've read any posts. The point is that everyone is already on equal footing because of the odd-numbered catch up patches. Even if you never touch the raid, if you play regularly during the odd numbered patches you are at 98% of a fully geared raider's power. The problem is that for both the raider and non-raider, gearing up during the odd patch is completely pointless since the new easy mode/crafting will reward better gear than the stuff you raided/spent tomes for and you can get it nearly instantly. You spend time getting gear and never get to use it outside of standing around in town.

It also basically means that if a raid group doesn't care about lolminions, lolmounts, or dyes, they can stop logging in after their first final boss clear and be no worse off when the next raid patch drops. It's one less worthwhile thing to log in and do in a game that's already starved for worthwhile stuff to log in and do.

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Thing is, SE wants Savage to be more accessible for people. Your preferred system does the precise opposite as it forces people to grind the normal mode until they have enough raid caliber gear to attempt Savage. Furthermore, what purpose would crafted gear even serve if the raid gear equally or outclassed it? We had this in 2.x and crafted gear was basically seen as completely worthless. When 3.4 launches, we'll have...

Normal mode
Crafted gear

Two options for people to gear up depending on their willingness to spend gil in lieu of time. From there, raiders will have a three month lead until 3.5

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Thing is, SE wants Savage to be more accessible for people. Your preferred system does the precise opposite as it forces people to grind the normal mode until they have enough raid caliber gear to attempt Savage. Furthermore, what purpose would crafted gear even serve if the raid gear equally or outclassed it? We had this in 2.x and crafted gear was basically seen as completely worthless. When 3.4 launches, we\\\\'ll have...

Normal mode
Crafted gear

Two options for people to gear up depending on their willingness to spend gil in lieu of time. From there, raiders will have a three month lead until 3.5

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SE wants it to be more accessible but players dont want to do it when the rewards and challenge of it are so short lived It is seen as a total waste of time.

Its a big reason why the raiding pop is as small as it is.

The fact that the gear simply isnt "needed" only further takes away the incentive for players to even bother.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

SE wants it to be more accessible but players dont want to do it when the rewards and challenge of it are so short lived It is seen as a total waste of time.

Its a big reason why the raiding pop is as small as it is.

The fact that the gear simply isnt "needed" only further takes away the incentive for players to even bother.

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The raid population is small in every MMO. Completing content this difficult is overwhelming a niche activity. As I've said earlier, this won't change no matter what SE does. Coil clears were only higher because it's significantly easier than Alexander. What does it matter if other people have equal gear in 3-4 months? Most hardcore raiders will have the fight killed or be close by that point while other groups simply want to clear it once or twice and aren't necessarily concerned with the gear at all.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The raid population is small in every MMO. Completing content this difficult is overwhelming a niche activity. As I've said earlier, this won't change no matter what SE does. Coil clears were only higher because it's significantly easier than Alexander. What does it matter if other people have equal gear in 3-4 months? Most hardcore raiders will have the fight killed or be close by that point while other groups simply want to clear it once or twice and aren't necessarily concerned with the gear at all.

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every recent mmo i'd say yes, the older ones not so much. the percentage of the player base that participated in endgame in xi or everquest for example was much much higher in part because the rewards were that much more valuable and appealing...

as for difficulty it's not as niche as you might believe. things as simple as psn and xbox / steam achievements show this where there are literally millions of gamers out there that go after as many platinum trophies as they can get or take pride in getting that achievement for beating games on there hardest difficulties. these things are so popular globally that now literally every game must have them. and players will do harder things in games just for an achievement.

the real difference between those games and mmos is that in those games the milestones or challenges don't change. in mmos especially the more vertical ones they do. coil a year ago quite challenging content. coil today. face rollable by 3 people.

I likened it to passing your driving test today. only for them to abolish the driving test next week... suddenly makes the fact you past completely worthless.. and that is a huge motivation killer

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Originally Posted by Dzian

every recent mmo i'd say yes, the older ones not so much. the percentage of the player base that participated in endgame in xi or everquest for example was much much higher in part because the rewards were that much more valuable and appealing...

as for difficulty it's not as niche as you might believe. things as simple as psn and xbox / steam achievements show this where there are literally millions of gamers out there that go after as many platinum trophies as they can get or take pride in getting that achievement for beating games on there hardest difficulties. these things are so popular globally that now literally every game must have them. and players will do harder things in games just for an achievement.

the real difference between those games and mmos is that in those games the milestones or challenges don't change. in mmos especially the more vertical ones they do. coil a year ago quite challenging content. coil today. face rollable by 3 people.

I likened it to passing your driving test today. only for them to abolish the driving test next week... suddenly makes the fact you past completely worthless.. and that is a huge motivation killer

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Because MMOs were a relatively new genre, and you had scarily few choices. We're talking fifteen years ago. Nowadays, you have a deluge of games, which inherently splits the overall demographic. FFXI didn't have any larger a raid scene nor did it have the same complexity. Top tier bosses like Absolute Virtue were essentially kamikaze zerg rushes.

... you realize this helps my argument not yours, yes? If I platinum Mass Effect or Dark Souls, my only reward is an achievement or trophy. Not gear. You acquire the very same thing upon clearing Savage. The entire purpose of Savage is for players to test their skills against an extreme challenge-- with the reward being an achievement for doing so. Gear thereafter is basically beating the same challenge multiple times, but making it easier. You've already completed the challenge and have the accompanying bragging rights on your achievement bar. Now, you're just doing it all again either for better gear ahead of other players or the fun of it.

That analogy makes no sense. If the driving test is the challenge, my completion of it is the reward. If it's later abolished, I still have the acknowledgement of having completed it.

I would have liked a system where raiding gave unique materia instead of being higher ilvl equipment. Give these materia unique effects, like reduced % of elemental dmg, or hp/mp regen, or reflecting dmg. These materia would be able to lock into gear without any risk of failure. The option would also be available to remove them at anytime, though at the cost of breaking the gear they were attached to. This way raiders are buying crafted gear and then improving upon it as they raid. When a new tier of content comes along they replace the old crafted set with the new one, pop on the materia from the last raid then hunt down the better materia in the current raid. Players could also create unique sets of gear tailor made for certain content. A dungeon where every enemy uses fire element attacks, maybe I'll break out my armor with five -10% fire dmg materia socketed into it. It would also give a reason to go back into older raids if certain types of this materia could only be found in that content.

I agree with the op that the 2.0 formula was best. The formula to push raiders to keep raiding is to keep the previous raid tier's gear as the highest ilevel gear going into the next raid as it was in coil. You raid, get gear, get BIS, and use that gear to push the next raid tier the fastest bc you have crafted your set's stats perfectly and you know you are ready to go into the next raid tier as the best you can be for your static. The tomestone gear is and always has been there for both casuals and raiders to eventually upgrade and possibly make a BIS set with, it's alternate stats on a same ilevel piece as raid gear, or for casuals a good piece of raid level gear. Raiders motivations are always a mix of glory+gear+fun but the real endgame is becoming BIS, that's the carrot on a stick that keeps ppl farming raids and tomes until they get that perfect set and perfect weapon.

It's the whole split in raid difficulty that's created this monster...they can't really add a normal mode raid with irrelevant gear on arrival (aka midas normal dropping 210 gear) and as long as they keep the formula that way, there's always going to be that feeling for casual players and raiders "What's the point of all this?" if out the gate at the even patches, all gear becomes irrelevant and both raiders and casuals have to replace all their gear with normal mode raid gear. It's not just a problem for raiders that this happens, it hurts the casual player too, it's just that the raiders have put a lot more of blood sweat and tears into that BIS gear set that they throw out the window on even patch launches. For casual players it possibly feels like a treadmill or hamster wheel or something, farm up a tome gear set and throw it out but it's still diminishing of that person's work, they should be able to also bring an upgraded tome set into the new raid/dungeons or whatever the case may be. Making the gear situation out like it only affects raiders is incorrect. I can't really say what the exact solution should be but all the problems stem from having the two different difficulties of raid, maybe it's like another poster said, that savage gear should be an additional 10 ilevels higher like this:
Midas Savage gear: 250
Tomestone upgraded:240
Tomestone: 230
Midas Normal: 220
Gordias Savage: 220
But then the problem becomes that the top two tiers, tomestone upgraded and savage gear, are no longer equal which I don't think would be a good alternative because it leaves both raiders and casuals at a disadvantage with raiders having less gear to choose from and casuals never being able to be equivalent in ilevel.

Isn't the current system meant to just ease the challenge of entering savage content? Like someone said, "accessibility" is one hurdle to get over. In a game like this that is instances with a low member party setup, it is expected that everyone performs well. Mistakes are costly and can even ruin a run. Rather than iLvl being a main deterrent, I feel like it's people's capability, I can see PF's on my server daily looking for a new "this job" and it's not that they aren't getting anyone, it's that they are repeatedly kicking the new person for bad performance. That is a motivation killer.

In old MMO's, you threw numbers at the harder bosses, even FFXI had things like alliance swapping on pandemonium warden when it wasn't faceroll. Some MMO's that are current today still let you offset lack of skill with

Stupid phone!!!

With...more people while leaving the boss untouched in status. Since we can't just offset incompetency with more people it makes 8-man perfect savage runs daunting for a lot of people, and for the brave who take up the challenge, current statics don't have the patience anymore. Sad times in Eozera.

In regards to the topic, I don't see much wrong with the current system, people lack of presence in savage is not entirely the fault of the iLvl system, but given the iLvl system, it is surprising not seeing more people tackling what is considered the hardest content just for the completion, and staying in that mindset just means that people may have an inherent fear of disappointing people if the make a mistake or perform inadequately.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

... you realize this helps my argument not yours, yes? If I platinum Mass Effect or Dark Souls, my only reward is an achievement or trophy. Not gear. You acquire the very same thing upon clearing Savage. The entire purpose of Savage is for players to test their skills against an extreme challenge-- with the reward being an achievement for doing so. .

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What you're missing though is that if you platinum dark souls today. in a year or 2 maybe even 5 years from now someone who decides to platinum dark souls has to do the exact same challenges you faced....

the point is that the challenges in current mmos are very short lived whats challenging today is a piece of cake tomorrow, which isn't the case with your dark souls example. whats challenging today is still challenging tomorrow.
back to xiv and the achievement for clearing coils and the final witness title for example. Once things of pride to many people can now be gotten incredibly easily by any group of 3-4 players with no almost no effort or sense of challenge at all.

what this then does is completely destroy the value of that accomplishment. and that is a big part of why many gamers just don't bother

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Originally Posted by Dzian

What you're missing though is that if you platinum dark souls today. in a year or 2 maybe even 5 years from now someone who decides to platinum dark souls has to do the exact same challenges you faced....

the point is that the challenges in current mmos are very short lived whats challenging today is a piece of cake tomorrow, which isn't the case with your dark souls example. whats challenging today is still challenging tomorrow.
back to xiv and the achievement for clearing coils and the final witness title for example. Once things of pride to many people can now be gotten incredibly easily by any group of 3-4 players with no almost no effort or sense of challenge at all.

what this then does is completely destroy the value of that accomplishment. and that is a big part of why many gamers just don't bother

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What difference does it make? If you clear Savage at its hardest difficulty, why would you care when or how other people accomplish it? Your clear isn't arbitrarily diminished because the content gets easier in later patches. In 2-5 years, only Layla Bell and his raid group will have "03/11/2016" marked on their Midas Savage clear.

Dark Souls is a single player game, wherein once you beat it... that's it. MMOs are an ongoing experience that require constant relevant content to keep people paying their sub and/or interested (F2P model). Designing an entire fight only accessible to a niche audience, then leaving it gated for the duration of said content's existence complete wastes resources. This means the vast majority of players would never even touch Savage-- providing little reason to even bother with it at all.

Are you guys all ready to throw away all the gear you fought for and melded? I sure am not! Oh well, gotta do it anyway. Even weapons.

Replacing gear happens - I get that. I like it. Replacing it ALL on a SINGLE DAY without setting foot into a raid is what I don't like.






I really hope this doesn't continue in 4.0.

Appealing to "raiders," or whatever other designation for hardcore players, makes no sense for a sub-based MMO. Businesses only really care about two kinds of people: (1) new customers, and (2) the really big spending customers. Lets assume that a business can only devote sufficient resources (i.e. attention and service) to one group. Sub MMOs care most about new customers. Why? Because there aren't really any big spending customers; the sub model puts a natural cap on the amount you can get from one person. Hence, quantity is needed to profit. In contrast, F2P is all about getting and pandering to the whale hardcore players: you aren't getting money from a lot of people playing for free, so F2P has to pander to hardcore people dumping lots of cash.

It's simple math, a fluctuating 400,000-1kk * $15 always beats 50,000 (the raiders) * $15. If hardcore people want to be pandered to, welcome to the F2P grinders. In F2P, a select minority can leverage the willingness to spend a ton more money to catch the owner's attention. In sub, the economic leverage stays with the majority since everyone buys the same ticket.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Are you guys all ready to throw away all the gear you fought for and melded? I sure am not! Oh well, gotta do it anyway. Even weapons.

Replacing gear happens - I get that. I like it. Replacing it ALL on a SINGLE DAY without setting foot into a raid is what I don't like.






I really hope this doesn't continue in 4.0.

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I think I may be misunderstanding something because you can only get one token per turn in Alexander at release. Not everything will be upgraded on day 1. You'll still need to have your current gear to do stuff.

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Originally Posted by Auteur

snip

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New crafted/easy mode gear undermines more than just raiders' progression, but thanks for posting.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I think I may be misunderstanding something because you can only get one token per turn in Alexander at release. Not everything will be upgraded on day 1. You'll still need to have your current gear to do stuff.

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You can get a full set of crafted gear that is equal ilvl to easy mode Alex gear/Higher level than previous savage. That will take less than a day.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

You can get a full set of crafted gear that is equal ilvl to easy mode Alex gear/Higher level than previous savage. That will take less than a day.

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plus you can overmeld it, so you get it in one day and it is also better than the alex normal gear.

Alexander raids are 3.0, 3.2 and now 3.4, that 240 gear is something you've been able to achieve since 3.2, it's weird to say that this gear should stay relevant past 3.4 "easy mode" Alexander.

To suggest the gear tiers should be something like 220/240/230?/260?, the reason why the "easy mode" Alexander is a higher IL than Savage of the last tier isa means to gear up towards that tier of Savage. It wouldn't make much sense to make the challenge of the next Savage done with less IL, cause even if you say made the last tier 250 then what, Savage would need 260 to complete? It would just make it a larger grind to get the better gear needed.

I mean an advantage towards working with both IL 240 gear is the ability to mix/match the best from each set, most people who only get the weekly tomes don't have that option anda limited option with weapons. So you get that added boost of your attributes being micromanaged with the mixing of the gears, you get to gear up up faster and you can take advantage of your higher tier gear without having to do the 24-man raid to upgrade the weekly tome gear.

What OP is suggesting is to just make weekly tome gear worthless to Raiders and make the Savage gear the only viable gear because it's the highest IL.

@Brannigan

If you wanna go back to 2.0 format fine then all you get for doing savage is a title. As for craft weapons not everyone is going to be getting them as the price will be sky high and thats before adding the cost on for materia.

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Originally Posted by Tint

blubb.

i thinkthey should increase the ilvl of the alex savage gear by 10 lvl. that will make the raid gear more rewarding and will lead to a headstart for the next raid-tier, without being too far ahead (the craftet gear and alex normal will have the same ilvl). if you lower the ilvl of alex normal gear you will make alex normal totally pointless.
with this theay can also increase the ilvl of the 24-people raids to make them more rewarding too.

as example:

craftet gear is 220
alex normal is 220
tome gear is 230
upgraded tome gear s 240
alex savage gear is 250
24-people raid gear is 240

next patch

craftet gear is 250
alex normal gear is 250
tome gear is 260
upgraded tome gear is 270
alex savage gear is 280
24-people raid gear is 270

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I agree although I think crafted gear should be above upgraded tome gear. The hq stuff isnt as easy to make and takes way more time and effort than collecting some tomes. As it stands at the moment the ilvls are way to close together on the items.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Are you guys all ready to throw away all the gear you fought for and melded? I sure am not! Oh well, gotta do it anyway. Even weapons.

Replacing gear happens - I get that. I like it. Replacing it ALL on a SINGLE DAY without setting foot into a raid is what I don't like.






I really hope this doesn't continue in 4.0.

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There has been a few changes and you may not have heard about them.

A9S through A11S are supposedly tuned such that a party in i240 BiS gear can clear them.

If you have a Static good enough you will not be forced to get i250 crafted gear or a Sophia weapon. All you will be require to do is clear A9 through A12 normal.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

@Brannigan

If you wanna go back to 2.0 format fine then all you get for doing savage is a title. As for craft weapons not everyone is going to be getting them as the price will be sky high and thats before adding the cost on for materia.

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You seem to be confusing 2.0 savage with 3.0 savage.

2.0 savage is clearly side content not intended for progression. 3.0 savage is main content and is only called savage because they didn't want to make people feel inferior for doing Alexander "easy" mode.

Here is the problem people seem to not understand: With how 3.0 progression has worked, there is NO REASON to farm out gear from savage after you have cleared the final boss. You will replace all of that gear within a few hours of the server coming up on the next raid patch.

This is not how things worked in 2.x - you expected to use your First Coil gear in Second Coil, and Second Coil gear in Final Coil. There were some pieces you'd replace with crafted, yes, but crafted wasn't so much better like it is now. If you don't take advantage of higher ilvl crafted gear you're just making things harder for yourself. The crafted, if it's like it was in 3.2, will be so cheap and easy to get that you'd be a fool not to get it. This doesn't apply to people going for a kill within a few hours of the server coming up, but to the average raider.

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Originally Posted by Airget

What OP is suggesting is to just make weekly tome gear worthless to Raiders and make the Savage gear the only viable gear because it's the highest IL.

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Also I know I'm double posting here but you do not know how to read. In the 2.0 model, tomestone gear and raid gear were equally valuable to raiders because they were the same item level(once upgraded), just like now. The important difference is that the crafted gear released on raid patches in 2.x was

-not higher ilvl than the previous tier
-much harder to make compared to now
-did not include accessories until the 24 man patch

Additionally, the Leviathan weapons were only -equal- to Allagan weapons (though 5 higher with a super rare upgrade item) and the Shiva weapons were only equal to High Allagan weapons once upgraded. Now, I don't get to use my stupid Midan goddamn Sword on anything but Brute Justice (which is where it came from) and maybe Sophia because I'll be replacing it ASAP.

I would take a similar approach like Tint. Though with a few changes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tint

as example:

craftet gear is 220
alex normal is 220 and kinda farmable (one drop per day)
tome gear is 230
upgraded tome gear 240 (make upgrades not available until odd numbered patches and not through savage)
alex savage gear is 255
24-people raid gear is 230 but farmable from the beginning

next patch

craftet gear is 250
alex normal gear is 250 and kinda farmable (one drop per day)
tome gear is 260
upgraded tome gear is 270 (make upgrades not available until odd numbered patches and not through savage)
alex savage gear is 285
24-people raid gear is 260 but farmable from the beginning

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

if they want people doing story mode they need to stick it in trial roulette

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Yeah sure, if you want a Castrum Meridiandum situation again.

God, I'm STILL mad I didn't know to form a party on my first run of that. Who thought that was a good idea?

EDIT: I think what needs to be done is that there should be some kind of different reward from raiding instead of just high level gear. I actually like the system of upgraded tome gear being equal to raid gear simply because I like there being multiple paths to the goal of max level gear. This probably wouldn't be as desirable if Alexander wasn't such a god awful raid in general, but that's another topic.

For now, I'm liking the idea someone had earlier of material drops that give you special stat boosts and what not. Or perhaps some kind of permanent glowing effect, or maybe really powerful consumables that boost you far beyond the current available potions and foods. Mounts and minions are a step in the right direction at least.

I dunno, I just really dislike Alexander and its gear and really wish I didn't have to do it in order to be The Very Best Like No One Ever WasTM

The moral of the story is
MAKE BETTER RAIDS SE
and fix the relic system while you're at it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

I would take a similar approach like Tint. Though with a few changes:

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I could actually get behind Tint's idea, but your amendments wouldn't work. If I can farm Alexander gear daily, why would I bother with crafted gear? I need a total of twelve pieces. So... two weeks of Alex or pay steep crafter prices? Pretty easy decision. A similar problem arises with 24-man raids being farmable from the get go. If they are, people will spam them for a couple weeks, get everything they want, then never touch them again. You need to essentially force people to continuously run content, lest it gather dust. What I would consider though is making tomestone gear a lower ilvl than crafted gear, but have some mats only obtainable from dungeons/trials/etc. It keeps people running content, but makes the more difficult approach (crafting RNG) better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

good arguments

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cause crafting would still mean better gear for all slots day 1 compared to having to go more often and having to compete with others. you would still have different kind of ppl that can't go every day, or ppl that can't stand to run 24-man raid multiple times a day. after all normal alex is still active in odd numbered patches even though drops have no lockout. but those that wish to farm all day could actually do it.
the reason behind this idea is to also give ppl more opportunities to switch jobs and be able to fill different spots making statics more accessible. atm your only choice would be to spend money on crafted gear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Yeah sure, if you want a Castrum Meridiandum situation again.

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Nothing in normal Alexander is any harder than half of trial roulette. Pretty much everything exept Garuda and Ifrit are on par or harder.

Anyway, I've given up hope of raids having any real rewards - I just want to actually use my raid drops while progressing through the next raid tier. Crafted being so easy and so good makes this a stupid option right now, which means that raiding after you've killed the final boss once is stupid.

Its an interesting balance. Part of the issue in this whole situation is that making one source of gear more rewarding will effectively lessen how rewarding the alternative sources are. Buffing crafted gear has diminished the value of previous teir gearsets. However by making previous teir gear superior to the next teir crafted gear you create a situation where the crafted gear is substantially devalued as those most hungry for that gear no longer have an interest in it. Infact most people will be better off attempting previous teir raids, or even paying for runs, than purchasing the crafted gear.

Combined with other sources of reward erosion, such as the moving of Materia Melding to NPCs, and your seeing a diminished return on rewards for those who do crafting and gathering. Considering the serious time investment this content involves that is as much an issue as poor raid rewards. My personal experience is levelling and gearing my crafting and Gathering jobs consumed vastly more time than raiding. Now you can argue that crafters and gatherers do the content because they enjoy it which is true but the same argument can be made about raiding. In truth both content sources have to be rewarding for the time and effort invested in them.

I suspect this balance is part of the issue the Devs have. Half the reason they buffed crafted gear was because they took the material system and made it more available to everyone.

I do think the 10 item level jump at the beginning of each new raid tier is problematic.

According to comments from Yoshi, that gear won't be necessary to clear the first floor or two of Alexander (The Creator), but there's no real reason not to get the i250 gear, since it'll provide a significant boost to early progression.

They will hopefully get rid of the needless jump for the raid tiers in 4.x.