Drk opener as mt

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Come to think of it, he also ignored everyone who told him he was wrong and called them all elitists, just like you are now. I'm sensing a pattern here.

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The main reason to do not look into DPS section lol.
I am literally scared about storms i may find there.
Too many dps i quess lol

...One Too many tanks here i quess lol *

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I run dungeons almost exclusively on my SCH on my main and PLD on my alt these days. I literally never press a heal button on any boss in any level 60 dungeon at i213 and my tanks never come close to death. No matter how bad your healer is, there's no excuse for a tank death in a boss fight.

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Mmmkay gonna make them work for that commendation then.

It's just since I did that Vault run for the DRK relic we had a DRG that got chained to the healer on last boss and the healer knew what to do but the DRG kept running to the Healer(decent WHM actually) and they both got cooked. If we didn't have a Summoner with us to res the healer we would have had a wipe. Actually had to throw out a Living Dead for that fight. And in Dungeons if I use LD it's because someone fucked up since I generally never have to use it.

TL;DR:
Don't pull with plunge. It doesn't give enough enmity to warrant it's use solely for enmity purposes, it can hinder moving the boss if that's required, and it's a dps loss for you and any melee dps in the group.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

And in Dungeons if I use LD it's because someone fucked up since I generally never have to use it.

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Don't get down because of that. There is little room for Living Dead at all. It is not even a good panic button, since you would do best to pair it up with Convalesnce.
In dungeons i am not using Living Dead, unless i want to kill a dying mob so next pull would be one mob less.
In raids it is mostly No-other-cooldowns-to-pop when tank buster is incoming, or when your HP is so low, that you won't survive even with 30% mitigation.

Thou i highly reccomend TeamSpeak or any form of verbal communication, cause LD can be used very efficiently actually, it is just very uncomfortable.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Mmmkay gonna make them work for that commendation then.

It's just since I did that Vault run for the DRK relic we had a DRG that got chained to the healer on last boss and the healer knew what to do but the DRG kept running to the Healer(decent WHM actually) and they both got cooked. If we didn't have a Summoner with us to res the healer we would have had a wipe. Actually had to throw out a Living Dead for that fight. And in Dungeons if I use LD it's because someone fucked up since I generally never have to use it.

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In fairness, there are some bosses that I always do in tank stance. Notable inclusions in that would be mostly every Primal when I'm the main tank (Thordan, Sephirot, etc) and - oddly enough - the boss you just referenced. That boss in the Vault is the most heavy-hitting (raid-wide) boss in Heavensward, outside of endgame trials and raids. He craps damage left and right and has actual, serious mechanics to watch out for. It's too dangerous, imo, to fight it with less mitigation. I'll swap to Sword Oath or drop Grit rarely, with a cooldown in addition (or obviously during the add phase because derpderp), but yeah.

Dungeon bosses in general aren't hard to heal, but there are a handful of noteworthy exceptions to the rule (namely: final boss of Fractal Continuum, final boss of The Vault, second boss of Antitower if the healer messes up and runs to the opposite side of you and the dps don't do their job :0) but they're few and far between and a good healer won't notice the difference between ShO/SwO, Grit/No-Grit, and Def/Del.


That said - I still always pull every boss in Grit for that initial hate lead, starting with a Power Slash. The only time I deviate is if my DPS are both doing less than me on bosses in a dungeon, since then I won't need Grit for hate at all and need to carry a bit harder than usual. It's personal preference and comfort level, whether you pull with or without Grit, I just feel Grit pulls are safer in most situations, and there's very little reason to remain in Grit for long, as healing in dungeons is never intensive enough to make the difference noticeable. The difference is Grit = no heals (occasional Regens), no Grit = 1 Adlo/Cure 1 replaces 1 Broil/Stone 3 here and there at worst. The extra tank dps easily outweighs that minor loss.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

The way I tend to pull as DRK is:
Unmend>[LB]>HS>SS>PS>[DA+drop Grit]>HS>[BW>CaS]>SS>[DP>DA]>SE>[PL]>S>[SE]>HS>[LB>DA]>SS>SE
Salted can probably be dropped pre-pull, but losing the initial shot of Grit damage for a delayed non-Grit SE feels better to me. After that SE, you can slap Grit back on if you feel you need more hate - it's very unlikely you'll lose hate through those two combos, and I generally will just use a PS either in place of the SE there (usually keeping the DA because BW is up and if I need it, I want the (marginally) bigger lead) or as he next combo not shown.

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Personally, I start with unmend and plunge, followed by scourge. Since my aggro combo is one GCD delayed compared to yours due to scourge, plunge's extra damage helps me keep aggro for that moment. Now, pulling with plunge isn't the worst thing ever. If it were to be used for a pull, well, that's only 20% damage loss on ONE oGCD. The difference between usage is also 15 seconds, if we're comparing your proposal and what everyone else does, and that's not a terribly huge deal breaker. Remember, we're no longer in the age of tight and strict dps checks.

I love DPSing as a tank, I sympathize and empathize with the idea of pushing out as much as you can, and advocate it. But it feels like splitting hairs, having this oGCD here or there. Let's not forget, it's one opener, not a whole fight of rotations. I feel it helps add to the aggro generated at the start, which to me translates to more time being afford out of tank stance and therefore more DPS. It isn't like I'm pushing for a crappy opener either, after all, I'm benefiting from scourge ticks for half a duration before you use yours. Not to say that yours isn't well thought through, but to say what I'm saying isn't bad either.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Personally, I start with unmend and plunge, followed by scourge. Since my aggro combo is one GCD delayed compared to yours due to scourge, plunge's extra damage helps me keep aggro for that moment. Now, pulling with plunge isn't the worst thing ever. If it were to be used for a pull, well, that's only 20% damage loss on ONE oGCD.

I love DPSing as a tank, I sympathize and empathize with the idea of pushing out as much as you can, and advocate it. But it feels like splitting hairs, having this oGCD here or there. Let's not forget, it's one opener, not a whole fight of rotations. I feel it helps add to the aggro generated at the start, which to me translates to more time being afford out of tank stance and therefore more DPS. It isn't like I'm pushing for a crappy opener either, after all, I'm benefiting from scourge ticks for half a duration before you use yours. Not to say that yours isn't well thought through, but to say what I'm saying isn't bad either.

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Of course whatever opener is not THAT bad, but it's almost pathetic to rely on something that doesn't have enmity bonus, and on top of that claiming it "helps" which 200pot is probably not going to be, making it better to use to DPS for the most part.
Of course, your opener is not THAT bad, but to claim that a skill that doesn't give enmity bonus "helpful" to maintain aggro is quite a long shot. Happy now? lmao.

People like to start Power Slash combo in Grit, so that you don't have issue with pushing for DPS without having to use extra Power Slashes. If you use Unmend > Plunge > Scourge first, that means you are losing out -20% from both Plunge and Scourge (-20% is 400pot from 500pot, you bet that it's a lot). And people just seem to keep forgetting or don't want to mention about the animation lock? It feels terrible to get locked from using skills, that's is what you get from using Plunge into whatever skills next.

If you think using Scourge early is better with the -20%, you only take 7.5sec to do PS combo, Grit off and Scourge away all you want. Remember that if you apply Scourge early during Grit uptime, it's very awkward for you to reapply it when you don't have Grit up.

If you are able to see the data individually in FFlogs, do see what the top DRKs have been doing. There are rarely cases where you want to use Plunge on pull or saving it for mechanics.

I love how you decided to go back and carefully reword from "pathetic" to "quite a long shot." Props to you~

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Originally Posted by Hierro

I love how you decided to go back and carefully reword from "pathetic" to "quite a long shot." Props to you~

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Blame SE's 1k char limit. Forgot to copy the whole thing before I edited further.

Note: If anyone has better idea to best DRK opener as MT, it's way better if you can prove it with something tangible and not just theory. Not nitpicking about what I "rephrase" because I forgot and was lazy to edit it further.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Now, pulling with plunge isn't the worst thing ever. If it were to be used for a pull, well, that's only 20% damage loss on ONE oGCD...But it feels like splitting hairs, having this oGCD here or there...

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Plunge on the pull is not bad because it's 20% less damage neither is it splitting hairs, it's bad because your melees lose extra 1-2 seconds running up which translates to 2-4k lost damage. You don't need it for hate, it's a group dps loss to use it, so don't do it.

When I was maining melee, I hated every DRK that Plunged on pull, now that I'm maining DRK myself, I take care to never do it myself. It's inefficient and annoying, don't do it, plz. PLZ.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

N E V E R pull with Plunge or use Unmend>Plunge under any circumstances ever

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I think this is an interesting point, and for the sake of my own understanding i'd like to push back just a bit. Front loading potency while you are in Grit means two things: you get to get out of Grit faster, you reduce the probability that you have to go back into Grit.
You regard plunge as a potency loss for the melee dps as they must use their gap closers or sacrifice a sec or two to catch up, but do not address that plunge is an asset to DRK for holding enmity with ranged dps. You better believe as soon as you use Unmend your BLM is going to go ham. Plunge helps keep you ahead of the ranged dps in enmity. If they have to wait for you to run the rest of the way to the target that is a one or two second dps loss for them.
Your rotation has one Power Slash Combo. There is no way that is going to hold hate with any kind of competent dps. Ever since 3.2 changes it takes at least 2-3 before you should consider dropping Grit. If you have to go back into Grit or use a Power Slash combo after dropping Grit the first time its a huge dps loss. Much more than using Plunge on the pull. In principle I think you are spot on, save potency for when it is not going to be debuffed. However, experience tells me to do that you will be saving plunge for far longer than one PS combo.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

If you are able to see the data individually in FFlogs, do see what the top DRKs have been doing.

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This was such a good idea, I am doing just that. I have noticed a few things too. First is that nobody is the same lol. All of the top DRKs I looked at seem to have their own unique ways of doing things. Second was that the DRK who completed the worlds first a8s didn't use Plunge on the pull very often. He did however use Dark Passenger right after Unmend for most of the fights that had data. I guess he is more worried about the animation lock of Plunge than he is the dps losses due to Grit as he is using DP in the same way some ppl here are using Plunge - to front load enmity.

edit: The more I look the more diverse it gets. There are some highly skilled DRKs using Plunge on some pulls that others do not.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

You regard plunge as a potency loss for the melee dps as they must use their gap closers or sacrifice a sec or two to catch up, but do not address that plunge is an asset to DRK for holding enmity with ranged dps. You better believe as soon as you use Unmend your BLM is going to go ham. Plunge helps keep you ahead of the ranged dps in enmity.

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WAR and PLD don't have Plunge and they can keep hate off ranged DPS just fine, why would you need to Plunge for hate on pull? You can use Plunge anywhere else in your opener for the damage/enmity/whatever, but using it on the pull is quite literally the worst option.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

This was such a good idea, I am doing just that. I have noticed a few things too. First is that nobody is the same lol. All of the top DRKs I looked at seem to have their own unique ways of doing things. Second was that the DRK who completed the worlds first a8s didn't use Plunge on the pull very often. He did however use Dark Passenger right after Unmend for most of the fights that had data. I guess he is more worried about the animation lock of Plunge than he is the dps losses due to Grit as he is using DP in the same way some ppl here are using Plunge - to front load enmity.

edit: The more I look the more diverse it gets. There are some highly skilled DRKs using Plunge on some pulls that others do not.

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Most of the high parsing DRK don't do MT opener simply because they use WAR to pull first. Go see those logs and you will see they don't start with PS combo first, indicating they aren't MT at the start. When DRK does MT opener, you will see PS combo as the first 7.5sec and delayed oGCDs.

inc wall because numbers

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Personally, I start with unmend and plunge, followed by scourge.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

I think this is an interesting point, and for the sake of my own understanding i'd like to push back just a bit. Front loading potency while you are in Grit means two things: you get to get out of Grit faster, you reduce the probability that you have to go back into Grit.
You regard plunge as a potency loss for the melee dps as they must use their gap closers or sacrifice a sec or two to catch up, but do not address that plunge is an asset to DRK for holding enmity with ranged dps. You better believe as soon as you use Unmend your BLM is going to go ham. Plunge helps keep you ahead of the ranged dps in enmity.

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Couple things:
1. If you lead with Scourge, you're locking yourself to +1 GCD in Grit before dropping it, which is a much bigger DPS loss than saving it to use when Grit drops.
2. See: all of the reasons Plunge Pull is bad. Because these reasons are valid and outweigh any perceived gains in Enmity which are either nonexistent or negligible.
"How negligible are they?"
Consider two openers below the cut:

[Grit+Darkside] Unmend > Low Blow > Hard Slash > Spinning Slash > Power Slash
[Grit+Darkside] Unmend > Plunge > Scourge > Hard Slash > Low Blow > Spinning Slash
Same amount of time has passed. I even give you a Low Blow there, and count 1 Scourge tick per gcd.

We can ignore the Grit/DS mods, since multiplication is commutative, so you could factor it out and ignore those gains. Instead, just looking at raw potency and enmity mods.

Mine: 150*3 > 100 + 150 > 220*3.5 > 300*5.5
Mine: 450 > 250 > 770 > 1650
Yours: 150*3 > 200 + 100 > 100 + 40 + 150 > 40 + 220*3.5
Yours: 450 > 300 > 290 > 810

You are generating literally +50*2.7 = +135 additional potency of enmity in the second GCD compared to what my opener does.

Fire 3 - the second GCD from a BLM, which comes approximately 1s into the fight, is 396 potency. Coupled with the initial F1, it's 666 potency of damage (Less than this... I counted AF1 as 1.5? Might be wrong). Your initial Unmend is 1215 potency of Enmity. That's nearly double the BLM's first two GCDs in the single initial hit. If you need +135 enmity potency to hold against the following F4 (Which, admittedly, is 739 potency and will hit 6x in the next 25-30s), you're massively undergeared.

"What!?"
One Power Slash in Grit is 1650*2.7 = 4455 enmity generated just from that single attack.
One Fire IV is 739. Six Fire IVs is 4434.
Oh. My one single Power Slash in the opener 3 gcds into the fight has already taken into account all six Raging Strikes Fire IVs in the Black Mage's opener, not counting Quelling Strikes or Silhouette.
Huh. It's almost as if I used two of those, there's no opener in the game that should even be teasing the 70% mark.

This is also all the more reason you should not be using Scourge there, but rather should be using your Power Slash combo first.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Not to say that yours isn't well thought through, but to say what I'm saying isn't bad either.

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I know this is confrontational, but I am absolutely 100% saying that pulling with Plunge is bad, and that you should stop doing it. It does literally nothing positive for you on the pull, and it hurts the melee dps in your party quite substantially, especially in the floors of Midas, where bosses start at the far north.

For the record! Melee numbers below the cut.

Dragoon's Spineshatter Dive - a potency comparison!
Used on pull: 170 Potency.
Used in opener: 170*1.15*1.1*1.3*1.3 = 363 potency
With Hypercharge or Trick Attack: 400 potency
With both: 439

For comparison, my Spineshatter Dive on the pull in A5S (because it's optimal to use it there) did 1030 last week.
My Spineshatter Dive in my opener on A7S regularly does 2600+ when it doesn't crit.

Not counting SSD's animation delay when using it on the pull, that's 1500+ damage I'm sacrificing because you need to use Plunge to pull.

And that's just me. I dunno about other Melee and how much they lose. It's also important to note that running up to the boss is more than "1-2 seconds" - it's at least a full GCD. Especially in Midas floors 2 through 4. You lose 1-2 full GCDs and start that much slower when you have to chase after a Plunged boss being held North.

Important note I need to keep reposting:
It is never - never - never - never - never preferable to a significant degree to hold the boss north at the moment the fight begins outside of cases where the boss is fixed in that position.

Specific examples under the cut.

Every encounter in A6 benefits from being pulled closer to middle before starting the encounter.
Quickthinx in phase 1 can be anywhere with exactly identical handling of mechanics
-- (in normal - in Savage, middle is preferred because of hammers)
Onslaughter is optimally held middle cheating north, not far north like 99.9999% of tanks like to do.

The only boss that a case could be made for is the first boss of Amdapor City Hard Mode, however the first Neuro Squama doesn't come out for a solid 30s+ into the encounter - plenty of time to move the boss after the encounter starts.

So.

Please.

Stop using Plunge to pull.

Thank you for your understanding in this matter. ♥

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Originally Posted by Chronons

If they have to wait for you to run the rest of the way to the target that is a one or two second dps loss for them.

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Spoken like someone who has never tanked in this game until they picked up Dark Knight.

How to pull a boss as a Tank:
Step 1: Press Unmend, Tomahawk, or Shield Lob once the boss is in range.
Step 2: Meet the boss before your GCD spin even fills up in order to press an Off-GCD skill, followed by the first hit of your Enmity combo.
Step 3: Press the second hit of your enmity combo.
Step 4: Drop the Hammer.
Step 5: ?????
Step 6: Profit.

Do me and yourself a favor and just try this, just once, before you sit here and try to cry wolf over something I have been doing since I started playing tank in 2.1. I know it works. I know it has worked since forever. I know it still works now.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Your rotation has one Power Slash Combo. There is no way that is going to hold hate with any kind of competent dps. Ever since 3.2 changes it takes at least 2-3 before you should consider dropping Grit. If you have to go back into Grit or use a Power Slash combo after dropping Grit the first time its a huge dps loss. Much more than using Plunge on the pull. In principle I think you are spot on, save potency for when it is not going to be debuffed. However, experience tells me to do that you will be saving plunge for far longer than one PS combo.

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You need to carefully define "competent" in this situation:

My i216 DRK certainly has issues holding against an i230 BRD who actually knows what they're doing, using this strategy. I lost hate to one and let him die because I didn't look at hate bars and stopped pressing Power Slash for too long.
My i226 PLD has never had issues in any content holding hate solid with this strategy, even when encountering DPS with i240 Midan drops bursting for upwards of 2.3-2.4k. No Shadewalker.

I should be playing more conservatively on my DRK, I don't deny that. I should probably throw up a second Grit PS before going full dps, but I'm a greedy bastard, so I don't. C:

Now, as for the dps loss part of this discussion.

Yes. You're right. Using Power Slash out of Grit is a DPS loss compared to using a Syphon Strike combo out of Grit.

(Ignoring the Darkside bonus, since it applies the same to either)
Power Slash out of Grit = 150 + 220 + 300 = 670 potency
DA+SE in Grit = 150 + 250 + 400 = 800 potency - you're in grit so it's 800*0.8 = 640 potency

"But what about the fact that it doesn't have Syphon Strike built in?"
Interesting question.
As I've stated in an earlier post:
1 cast of Blood Weapon affords you enough bonus Mana to use 6-7 Power Slashes before you see a net loss in Mana compared to Grit (6 combos is 45s).

However, it is definitely, 100% optimal to stay in Grit as long as necessary to maintain a string of SS combos without ever needing to touch PS again, within reason. Using 2-3 before dropping it (IF NEEDED) is for sure optimal compared to dropping it sooner.

Blah blah blah.
- Leading with Plunge is bad. Don't do that.
- Using Power Slash out of Grit isn't a dps loss compared to staying in Grit.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

[Grit+Darkside] Unmend > Low Blow > Hard Slash > Spinning Slash > Power Slash
[Grit+Darkside] Unmend > Plunge > Scourge > Hard Slash > Low Blow > Spinning Slash
Same amount of time has passed. I even give you a Low Blow there, and count 1 Scourge tick per gcd.

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An alternative is unmend, wait about half a second, then plunge into hard slash. The boss will run to the position you plunged from, you will not clip a gcd, extra burst enmity, and you don't lose a fraction of plunge potency from waiting. The differences are very small obviously, but it is misleading to say that using plunge at the start is always wrong. From a melee dps perspective it is the same for the case I mentioned because the boss will move at the same speed and end up in the same location.

I agree about opening with scourge in grit being weaker; it is a mistake I make too often out of reflex because of its priority in general.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

snip

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Hey, thank you for responding to my criticisms. I think only three of your point are related to me so I will try to only speak to them.
1. I don’t think I advocated the use of Scourge on the pull, I believe you are directing this at the other poster. Your math shows (Unmend > Low Blow > Hard Slash > Spinning Slash > Power Slash) is superior to (Unmend > Plunge > Scourge > Hard Slash > Low Blow > Spinning Slash). I was speaking to the viability of (Unmend > Plunge > Hard Slash > Low Blow > Spinning Slash > Power Slash). Using your numbers puts it at 450 > 350 > 870 > 1650 meaning it generates an additional 270 (+100*2.7) potency of enmity in the 2nd and 3rd GCD. I fully admit I could be mistaken on that math however. Regardless, your main point is that you should save potency for when you are outside of Grit. As I said I agree with this, however I disagree that gains from front loading potency are negligible in the fight long term. Extra enmity generated in Grit through potency will absolutely decrease the risk of having to waste MP reactivating Grit or to waste GCDs on Gritless Power Slash Combos.
2. I’m afraid you assume too much. I mained WAR throughout 2.0 and made the character attached to this account after taking a long break from the game. Also, I don’t use plunge on pulls. I tend to save it until I’m ready to apply Scourge because it helps me keep better uptime on my DoTs (using the Plunge ability as a sort of hotbar timer). As I said I was only pushing back against your claims to glean a better understanding. Thank you though for your constructive criticism and for not being condescending. The comment that you quoted was only a counter claim to what you said about the melee dps. You criticized Plunge pulling because it adds wasted time to the melee’s ability to do damage, but neglect any time wasted between using Unmend and reaching the target for the second GCD.
3. I guess instead of saying “competent dps” I should just say you will not always be able to get away with just one PS combo in Grit. If you don’t want to have to go back into Grit or use PS outside of Grit (and we seem to agree you shouldn’t) it is likely going to take more than that to ensure you do not have to.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Most of the high parsing DRK don't do MT opener simply because they use WAR to pull first. Go see those logs and you will see they don't start with PS combo first, indicating they aren't MT at the start. When DRK does MT opener, you will see PS combo as the first 7.5sec and delayed oGCDs.

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Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

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I should try this on groups of overworld enemies and see how it goes. Personally if I do a yolo Unmend>Plunge pull it's to turn a Boss around. I just feel like frontloading as much potency as I can in Grit so I can unload as much Enmity as I can before deciding if dropping Grit is a smart thing to do. Not using that gap closer skill initially is just gonna make me go "WHERE IS THE PLUNGE!?" Otherwise it just doesn't feel the same since the Shwooom sound of metal just has that extra OOOMPH effect I need to say this guy is focusing all on me.

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Originally Posted by tremor24

An alternative is unmend, wait about half a second, then plunge into hard slash. The boss will run to the position you plunged from, you will not clip a gcd, extra burst enmity, and you don't lose a fraction of plunge potency from waiting. The differences are very small obviously, but it is misleading to say that using plunge at the start is always wrong. From a melee dps perspective it is the same for the case I mentioned because the boss will move at the same speed and end up in the same location.

I agree about opening with scourge in grit being weaker; it is a mistake I make too often out of reflex because of its priority in general.

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Yeah, I mean - I don't see the issue with that, outside of the issue of the argument for doing it this way being really weak.

You're arguing, as I've shown, over amounts of enmity gain that are less than even the weakest attack from any DPS class going full tilt. +100, +200 - every basic skill from every Job beats these two numbers. It's not a notable gain, but it is a substantial loss of offensive potency. And that's basically the bottom line. It's for sure a personal preference choice in your suggestion and the other ones, but that personal preference is

1. Marginal hate gains that will have literally 0 impact on how long I need to use Grit
or
2. DPS gains by using my main dps off-gcd attacks after Grit has been dropped and Slashing debuff has been applied.

I personally think the cons of 1 are significant, where the cons of 2 are not, but meh. As long as you're not using Plunge to tank a boss at the far north of the map where it spawns, I ain't got anything negative to say about your choice outside of "I personally do not agree with that decision, but you are welcome to make it."

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Originally Posted by Chronons

1. I don’t think I advocated the use of Scourge on the pull, I believe you are directing this at the other poster.

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Nope, that was someone else.
Yes, it would be +270 enmity gain in the second GCD to do it that way, +540 overall gain before the end of the first Power Slash combo.

The thing is that the total enmity generated by the lesser rotation is:
(450 + 150 + 100 + 770 + 1650) * 2.7 = 8424
The modified would be 8424 + 540 = 8964 = +6% enmity generated in the first 4 GCDs.

AKA: Not a noteworthy gain. A gain, absolutely, but not a gain that I would sacrifice DPS for. Extra enmity frontloaded into Grit is good, but it's much more beneficial to do this by feeding a second Power Slash before dropping Grit than spending a Plunge on the pull. You absolutely /can/ use your other stuff in Grit to start, sure. It might not even be a loss, if you would end up seeing +1 of said skill in the fight over what the guy who holds them sees. However, Plunge still shouldn't be between Unmend and Hard Slash.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

2. I’m afraid you assume too much.

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I'm not neglecting that time. I'm saying that time does not exist. There's no delay at all between Unmend and Hard Slash, GCD-wise. When the GCD is re-filled, you're hitting Hard Slash and you're within range of the boss. Always. I mean, I do that on PLD all the time (and admittedly have not tanked much on DRK recently) and Shield Lob > Fast Blade is identical to Unmend > Hard Slash.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

3. I guess instead of saying “competent dps” I should just say you will not always be able to get away with just one PS combo in Grit. If you don’t want to have to go back into Grit or use PS outside of Grit (and we seem to agree you shouldn’t) it is likely going to take more than that to ensure you do not have to.

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Yup! And I agree with you. I think in even gear, you'd need so few additional PS out of Grit that it becomes a gain to drop after one initial combo, but I can't realistically test that with my current DRK.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

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I will point out a few things here:
1. DP is 150 potency, Plunge is 200.
2. DP is not a gap closer - it doesn't modify the pull in any notable way other than injecting additional potency.
3. DP is a magic attack. It gets no bonus from Storm's Eye or Dancing Edge. Plunge does.

Note that I never once said "do not use Dark Passenger on the pull" - it is significantly less of a loss to use that as an additional off-gcd Enmity boost in grit than to burn Plunge there.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

You regard plunge as a potency loss for the melee dps as they must use their gap closers or sacrifice a sec or two to catch up, but do not address that plunge is an asset to DRK for holding enmity with ranged dps. You better believe as soon as you use Unmend your BLM is going to go ham. Plunge helps keep you ahead of the ranged dps in enmity. If they have to wait for you to run the rest of the way to the target that is a one or two second dps loss for them.

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If you pull with plunge - one thing and one thing alone will happen... aggro yoyo vs ranged... If you pull with unmend - you get to keep your aggro and keep going with your combo.

Each time I had a DRK pull with plunge that happened. When your first hit crits for 3k+ a plunge won't do anything vs it. Another factor that nobody I think mentioned.

Dragoons have battle litany, bards have foe requiem - a bard positions somewhere such that they can sing foe before pull in such a way that when the boss is pulled and positioned properly it gets in range without the bard needing to move. This also should ensure dragoons are in range of the whole party for battle litany. If you on the other hand pull with plunge... boss won't get foe up and most likely half the party won't get battle litany as well unless you run near the now oddly positioned boss.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Note that I never once said "do not use Dark Passenger on the pull" - it is significantly less of a loss to use that as an additional off-gcd Enmity boost in grit than to burn Plunge there.

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Oh, I did not mean to imply that you did. Apologies if it came off that way. Its just something I noticed when I dug into fflogs. I am thankful for the discussion as it is what lead me to seek out this information. Also, thank you for all of the good info on Plunge pulling. As I said I don't typically do it, bc I like having it for DoT management, but I know a lot who do. Will be directing them here in the future so they may benefit from your wisdom as well.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

If you pull with plunge - one thing and one thing alone will happen... aggro yoyo vs ranged... If you pull with unmend - you get to keep your aggro and keep going with your combo.

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When I say say pulling with Plunge I am referring to using Unmend>Plunge to reach the target as opposed to Unmend>run to the target. It was in response to JackFoss' post that challenged what seemed to be conventional wisdom among DRKs in general. I, and I hope nobody else, would never advocate using Plunge as a replacement for Unmend.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

I, and I hope nobody else, would never advocate using Plunge as a replacement for Unmend.

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Did you happen to read everything @Drkdays posted here in recent 5 pages?
Have a pleasant reading.

Warning:
Contains cancer and salt.

Although this thread is more focused on a general-purpose opener for DRK, sometimes it helps to think of it as more of a set of priorities and tailor your decisions to each fight.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

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This is interesting. However, to get a sense of an individual tank's priority system in the opener, we have to watch how they approach a few different fights. Let's take a look at one of the cases you mentioned. I've omitted reprisal and LB procs for consistency.

A5S:
Fausts: DA BP > Unmend Salted > HS DP > SpS DD LB > PS DA > Grit off > Scourge (Faust 1) BW > Scourge (Faust 2) C+S > DASE > Scourge
Note: This is tanked with each tank on a different add. Grit is turned off at 10s.

Ratfinks: DA > Unmend Plunge > HS C+S DP > SpS LB > PS Salted DD > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 35s.

A6S: DD > Unmend DP LB > HS > SpS Conv > PS Pot > Grit off > Scourge BW > HS DA C+S > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 10s. Salted is used after about 18s.

A7S: Unmend DP LB > HS > SpS Conv Salted > PS Pot > Grit off > Scourge BW > HS DA C+S > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 10s.

A8S was an OT opener, so I've excluded it.

General Notes:
This group is using a NIN, so the DRK has access to Shadewalker, allowing for a single PS opener. A pot is usually used after PS and Grit is then dropped. DA C+S is typically held until Grit is dropped to get more potency out of it. This gets followed up by Scourge and a DA SE combo. Plunge typically happens quite late, at around 20s in, sometime after the first DA SE combo goes out. I'm not entirely sure what the rationale is.

A5S Team Faust: This is tanked with two tanks for the initial Fausts. The pre-pull DA is applied to DP. If this were a single target situation, DA DP would give you only 100 extra potency, and would be better spent on a DA SE later on for 140 extra potency. Because there are two targets (200 potency), we're past the minimum break even point. This only really becomes efficient at 4 adds (DA DP gives you 57% the potency gain of DA C+S at 2 mobs, 86% at 3 mobs, and 114% at 4 adds), but you only see this happen in the opener.

If you were solo-tanking this (which tends to be the standard PUG approach), you would probably open with AD instead of Unmend. This would prevent you from using a pre-pull DA, so you would probably end up delaying DA DP if you wanted to use it.

Salted Earth gets applied earlier than usual, again because this is multi-target. Hummel lands at 38s for this group, which is another factor in favour for using it earlier. The pot is held for Hummel.

One point on Scourge. It's 500 potency over 30s. Each hit of your Del combo is 226 potency on average, and each hit of your DASE combo is 267 potency on average. Scourge reaches about 260 potency after 12 seconds, so you generally don't want to apply it unless it's going to be ticking for at least 15 seconds. In this scenario, the two Fausts get a Scourge each at around 17s, and Hummel lands at 38s. As clear times become shorter, Scourge will probably get dropped from this opener.

A5S Ratfinks: This is the odd one out. The first thing that you should notice is that Grit stays on until 35s. This is due to the increased incoming damage from the headache stacks. Concussion ends at 32s. Because Grit is kept on, there's no point in holding DA C+S. The pot is held because the boss takes less damage when he is large.

This opener starts with Unmend > Plunge. The boss is animation locked at the start of the fight due to his transformation, so you do save travel time in this case by using Plunge as a gap closer. This wasn't the case in the other fights we're looking at, where the mob will move towards you on pull.

A6S/A67: The A6S and A7S openers are similar, and are probably more representative of a standard pull. The difference is that the A6S opener starts with DD pre-pull, to soften the damage around when the first Brute Force comes in at 7s. Salted gets delayed until about 18 s, probably to allow for repositioning after the mines which come out at 16 s.

So, should you copy this? Well, it depends. If you don't have access to a NIN's Shadewalker, you may need to do two PS combos. This will delay you from turning off Grit. If that's the case, you may not want to delay C+S, which would lead you to opening with DA pre-pull. If you do, DP should come after C+S if it's a single target fight. And each fight should ideally be treated on a case by case basis.

As a general rule of thumb, you don't want to hold on to a cooldown for longer than its recast time. oGCDs with higher potencies and shorter recasts take priority. Proc based oGCDs should be used sooner rather than later on a boss with physical autos, especially if you're going to put up DD early.

A few things need to be pointed out!

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Originally Posted by Lyth

A5S Team Faust: This is tanked with two tanks for the initial Fausts. The pre-pull DA is applied to DP. If this were a single target situation, DA DP would give you only 100 extra potency, and would be better spent on a DA SE later on for 140 extra potency. Because there are two targets (200 potency), we're past the minimum break even point. This only really becomes efficient at 4 adds (DA DP gives you 57% the potency gain of DA C+S at 2 mobs, 86% at 3 mobs, and 114% at 4 adds), but you only see this happen in the opener.

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This is inaccurate.
DA+DP is always mana efficient to use at 2+ mobs. It's a classic trap to consider it an alternative to DA+C&S, when it just isn't. You can DA+DP and DA+C&S and only miss out on 1 DA+SE - a gain of 120 potency, compared to the gain of 200 from DA+DP.

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A5S Ratfinks: This is the odd one out. The first thing that you should notice is that Grit stays on until 35s. This is due to the increased incoming damage from the headache stacks. Concussion ends at 32s. Because Grit is kept on, there's no point in holding DA C+S. The pot is held because the boss takes less damage when he is large.

This opener starts with Unmend > Plunge. The boss is animation locked at the start of the fight due to his transformation, so you do save travel time in this case by using Plunge as a gap closer. This wasn't the case in the other fights we're looking at, where the mob will move towards you on pull.

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As a tank on this fight, you get precisely 9 GCDs before the boss hits you with Concussion. 9 gcds is only ~18s of time. The reason you skip Potion here is for several reasons.
1. He is small for the first two GCDs of the fight
-- This is why you C&S early on. It's more beneficial to use it at 100% potency, rather than holding it 35-50s for him to go small, or using it at 30% reduced effectiveness after Concussion. It's also important to note whether or not the group skipped the first dash! If they DIDN'T, it's a huge loss to hold it. If they DID, it might not be as bad, but still half the cooldown.
2. You wanna use it early to get all 15s, but using it early means skipping Plunge or C&S in the opener - your two strongest ogcd attacks. I would also argue that Scourge should be your first hit, here, but I don't do it on DRK, so what do I know. I just know PLD is GB>RA>GB before concussion. I figure DRK could be SC>PS>DA+SE>SS>Concussion? I dunno.
3. The boss is stationary on pull, so using Plunge is identical to using Unmend.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

DRK MT opener? Have a WAR pull-slave and Provoke into cruising later. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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OK I lol'd pretty loud

This thread was some insight on improving dps. My thanks to you all as fellow players.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Yeah, I mean - I don't see the issue with that, outside of the issue of the argument for doing it this way being really weak.

You're arguing, as I've shown, over amounts of enmity gain that are less than even the weakest attack from any DPS class going full tilt. +100, +200 - every basic skill from every Job beats these two numbers. It's not a notable gain, but it is a substantial loss of offensive potency. And that's basically the bottom line. It's for sure a personal preference choice in your suggestion and the other ones, but that personal preference is

1. Marginal hate gains that will have literally 0 impact on how long I need to use Grit
or
2. DPS gains by using my main dps off-gcd attacks after Grit has been dropped and Slashing debuff has been applied.

I personally think the cons of 1 are significant, where the cons of 2 are not, but meh. As long as you're not using Plunge to tank a boss at the far north of the map where it spawns, I ain't got anything negative to say about your choice outside of "I personally do not agree with that decision, but you are welcome to make it."

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I do not believe it is as much of a dps loss that you think for a couple of reasons. You are front loading an off-gcd attack by at least 4 gcds during a time you won't be doing anything else anyway. Which is at a minimum 1/3 of a plunge wasted, and it can not reliable fit with any other off-gcd's due to jump delay so other abilities are being delayed, at a minimum blood weapon is delayed. So, 0.8 damage due to grit vs. 1.21 from slashing debuff and trick attack minus 1/3 of a 1.1 potency later assuming just slashing debuff is about 0.84 compared to using it right after unmend. Yeah, you may also get litany, but the damage difference is negligible and at the cost of delaying another off-gcd. Overall it seems to be a wash and front loading plunge after unmend in this way is practically unnoticeable. I simply disagree that it is a substantial loss of dps potency as you mentioned.

It is approximately equal damage if delayed by four gcds, and if you end up even delaying it one more than four gcds then you are losing dps.

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Originally Posted by tremor24

I do not believe it is as much of a dps loss that you think for a couple of reasons. You are front loading an off-gcd attack by at least 4 gcds during a time you won't be doing anything else anyway. Which is at a minimum 1/3 of a plunge wasted, and it can not reliable fit with any other off-gcd's due to jump delay so other abilities are being delayed, at a minimum blood weapon is delayed. So, 0.8 damage due to grit vs. 1.21 from slashing debuff and trick attack minus 1/3 of a 1.1 potency later assuming just slashing debuff is about 0.84 compared to using it right after unmend. Yeah, you may also get litany, but the damage difference is negligible and at the cost of delaying another off-gcd. Overall it seems to be a wash and front loading plunge after unmend in this way is practically unnoticeable. I simply disagree that it is a substantial loss of dps potency as you mentioned.

It is approximately equal damage if delayed by four gcds, and if you end up even delaying it one more than four gcds then you are losing dps.

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The DPS gain isn't that substantial but the point still stands that you would want to delay Plunge slightly later for all the debuffs and non-grit. Every little DPS counts towards being a better tank. Inb4 people circlejerk that tanks don't need to do DPS. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

The DPS gain isn't that substantial but the point still stands that you would want to delay Plunge slightly later for all the debuffs and non-grit. Every little DPS counts towards being a better tank. Inb4 people circlejerk that tanks don't need to do DPS. Deal with it.

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I mean, his comments are pretty close to being correct, and the only thing he tripped on was ignoring Darkside (which doesn't notably change the numbers or the argument).
It'd be 0.92 to use it right at the start and (assuming no TA, but yes slashing) 1.265 if you delay it. Delaying 4 gcds (Hard Slash, Spinning Slash, Power Slash, Scourge) is ~10s so in the long run if delaying it causes you to lose 1 Plunge in 1/3 pulls, then yeah, it'd technically end up being a loss, 1/3 of the time. Personally, I would play to the 2/3 odds of it being a gain, but that's just me.

I can't argue that logic, because it's sound.

It doesn't address the other (more important) arguments for not doing Unmend>Plunge, but it does absolutely debunk my own false perception of the dps gain from using it after Grit is gone, in some cases. I would argue these cases are few and far between, and the overall loss would end up being the 0.92x potency, not some 1/3 amount. You'd be risking 0.92 for 1.265-0.92 = 0.345 of base Plunge potency potential gain. Is that worth it? Not sure. You'd need to know the exact duration of the fight to hazard a guess. I prefer saving it, though it's hard to argue it's not personal preference (so long as the other considerations are taken into account and handled properly - delaying Plunge/using it after Hard Slash instead of after Unmend).

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

The DPS gain isn't that substantial but the point still stands that you would want to delay Plunge slightly later for all the debuffs and non-grit. Every little DPS counts towards being a better tank. Inb4 people circlejerk that tanks don't need to do DPS. Deal with it.

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I don't believe anyone in this thread would be advocating that tanks don't need to do dps. If you read my post you would see that I do value tank dps gains, and as JackFrost reaffirmed the difference for plunge is mostly personal preference and unless your fully optimizing the job for every fight then either way is not absolutely wrong from a dps standpoint.