Please do something about Living Dead

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Yes because calling things by name is wrong i guess.

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"Anyone who disagrees with me, even with ample explanation, is a white knight" - Pibz, 2016

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Yes because calling things by name is wrong i guess. And nevermind my non existing grounds that i have posted over like 10 different replies now.. Your reply on the other hand so much arguments and content and rebuttal of what i said, truly a great debater..

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-shrugs- calling people white knights does tend to imply that you are out of logical arguments, much like resorting to insults in general, if someone has to be insulting during a debate it is generally because they are frustrated and have nothing to say to prove their point. Or that they are simply immature.

Much like claiming you only resorted to insults because the previous person, its essentially the same as saying "i know you are but what am i"

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Originally Posted by DeeColon

Aha he went there, YOU DON'T PLAY MY JOB YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RAAAAAAAA

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YOU DON'T PAY MY SUB!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

"Anyone who disagrees with me, even with ample explanation, is a white knight" - Pibz, 2016

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No, anyone who defends something just for the sake of defending is indeed a white knight. Why you people even care about the change if you dont even play the job is beyond me. And nice job ignoring the rest of what i wrote. Accusing me of straw manning while not providing any arguments or counter arguments to what i said , the irony is delicious i guess

I'm fighting a drove of "If it ain't totally broken why fix it" which is the typical response to anything in this forums

Stay on topic or lock the topic. Please.

Holmgang is only harder if you have no target.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

No, anyone who defends something just for the sake of defending is indeed a white knight. Why you people even care about the change if you dont even play the job is beyond me. And nice job ignoring the rest of what i wrote. Accusing me of straw manning while not providing any arguments or counter arguments to what i said , the irony is delicious i guess

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Except many people play dark knight and did give valid points, just because you do not agree with them does not make a persons point wrong. And vice versa, yet you claim that people who do not agree with you are just white knighting while you ignore their opinions and try to push your own as being the right and only one. That is why people persist in pushing the issue, it's insulting.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Stay on topic or lock the topic. Please.

Holmgang is only harder if you have no target.

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Trying to, and you are absolutely right~

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Originally Posted by Aryalandi

Except many people play dark knight and did give valid points, just because you do not agree with them does not make a persons point wrong. And vice versa, yet you claim that people who do not agree with you are just white knighting while you ignore their opinions and try to push your own as being the right and only one. That is why people persist in pushing the issue, it's insulting.

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I gave an argument in addition to anything else i said, the ones responding to me are the ones who just then keep strawmanning, like you, talk about the topic as im not replying anymore otherwise

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Please tell me how someone dies through Hallowed .

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Did you lose the ability to read now?

"after hallowed ground wears off too"

What do you think happens to the hallowed ground buff when that little 10 second timer expires?

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Originally Posted by DeeColon

Did you lose the ability to read now?

"after hallowed ground wears off too"

What do you think happens to the hallowed ground buff when that little 10 second timer expires?

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Yes people die if healers don't heal and they don't have any kind of invunerability on, what on earth does this have to do with the tank cds comparison?!

If hallowed was 10000s long people could still die after that absurd amount, by your logic it wouldn't be easier to manage (in THAT absurd scenario, im not in any way saying hallowed is op) either?!

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Yes people die if healers don't heal and they don't have any kind of invunerability on, what on earth does this have to do with the tank cds comparison?!

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Healers not healing is exactly how a DRK dies through Living Dead, hence I said, the healers that let you die through LD will let you die when you use your immunity no matter what tank you're playing, bads are bads.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

No, anyone who defends something just for the sake of defending is indeed a white knight. Why you people even care about the change if you dont even play the job is beyond me. And nice job ignoring the rest of what i wrote. Accusing me of straw manning while not providing any arguments or counter arguments to what i said , the irony is delicious i guess

I'm fighting a drove of "If it ain't totally broken why fix it" which is the typical response to anything in this forums

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1. I actually am levelling the job as we speak, and will be using it raids.
2. I don't need to provide any arguments, as others have done that and then some, I would only be repeating others sentiments.
3. I actually really like living dead as is, it could do with some tiny minor tweaks to do with when the heal hits (as stated by others), but thematically and functionally it fits with DRKs toolset, and provides a good mitigation tool that is on par with holmgang, but weaker (and cheaper) than hallowed.
4. Look back at this thread, not a single person has wholeheartedly shared your opinion, I think that says something about what you are saying and you should really evaluate that.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Yes, Hallowed Ground is the epitome of an "oh shit" awesome button. However, Dark Knight - in my view - is substantially better off than a warrior is.

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No, Holmgang is way better than LD simply because of the low cooldown time of 3 minutes. Like that allowed two uses in A1S back in the early days when we had to deal with 3 jumps, the other tank jobs couldn't even say the same about their immunities. Plus you can heal yourself with Equilibrium right after. The bind and target is just a hinderance. But it's far better than LD because the Warrior can address the 1 HP themselves before a healer can, not to mention other cooldowns to address HP. It's not even close, Holmgang is way better.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

the ones who just then keep strawmanning, like you, talk about the topic as im not replying anymore otherwise

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Never said you didn't give an argument along with your insults, last part just invalidated your entire post because its childish, you see what i mean?

Also your argument earlier was that the ability pushes the healer in the party too hard, then when a healer disagreed and said they see nothing wrong with the ability you essentially told said healer how to do their job before later claiming that people who don't main a job have no right to tell those that do so how to do it.

You are defeating your own arguments while ignoring people who disagree with you and insulting their intelligence because you have an issue with something and they do not. That is a fact that cannot be debated because I am a strawmanning white knight and won't let it go~

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Originally Posted by DeeColon

Healers not healing is exactly how a DRK dies through Living Dead, hence I said, the healers that let you die through LD will let you die when you use your immunity no matter what tank you're playing, bads are bads.

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Yes and the issue is that the other 2 tank "ohcrap" abilities don't require anywhere near the same amount of coordination and healer involvement as Living dead is , in hallowed's case it requires none but that ok because it has the longest CD to counterbalance that, and thats the ONLY issue i have. Of course if you have a good team it can be managed. But again issue is,

Hallowed has the highest cd and no healer involvement required- fine because it has a really long cd timer;

Holmgang needs significantly more healer involvement but counter balances it by having a lower cd timer;

Living Dead requires the biggest amount of healer involvement, coordination and is still the 2nd largest cooldown timer. The only thing that it has going for it, is that if you manage to pull it off it's quite good for very niche situations, but this doesn't balance out the rest.

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Originally Posted by DeeColon

Healers not healing is exactly how a DRK dies through Living Dead, hence I said, the healers that let you die through LD will let you die when you use your immunity no matter what tank you're playing, bads are bads.

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I dunno I can use Equilibrium + Second Wind to get to healthy levels after Holmgang as Warrior. I don't think LD is as bad as the OP is suggesting but it's still the weakest of the 3 except in very, very specific niche cases

LD is alright. The only problem I see with LD is not with the drk, but with the inexperienced healers. As someone else mentioned before, in regular df runs LD should not be used whatsoever at least the drk got greedy and start making extremely big pulls and the healer is not experienced or just lazy and let you die if you used LD.

If it were an old ex primal, it shouldn't even be used (including Bismark ex) because your ilvl gears compensate any mechanics. I read that thok was mentioned, and you were complaining on how a healer have to use their CD to compensate your CD. Obviously what other time would a healer used for? When they go afk for 5 secs during the fight? There is not excuse to struggle healing.

@ Mike 555 yes but a lot of people preferred dtk cuz of its versatility of better CDs time of its other skills and better DPS compared to PLD, which has the lowest DPS out of the three tanks. I think that very well balance it out the weak DPS and long CDs that PLD have. Not even talking how drk can cross skills of pld while none other tank can do it.

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Originally Posted by technole

No, Holmgang is way better than LD simply because of the low cooldown time of 3 minutes. Like that allowed two uses in A1S back in the early days when we had to deal with 3 jumps, the other tank jobs couldn't even say the same about their immunities. Plus you can heal yourself with Equilibrium right after. The bind and target is just a hinderance. But it's far better than LD because the Warrior can address the 1 HP themselves before a healer can, not to mention other cooldowns to address HP. It's not even close, Holmgang is way better.

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Thank you, why this is so tough to get through is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Mike555

I dunno I can use Equilibrium + Second Wind to get to healthy levels after Holmgang as Warrior. I don't think LD is as bad as the OP is suggesting but it's still the weakest of the 3 except in very, very specific niche cases

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That is exactly what im saying though. Never said it was horrible just that the other ones are significantly better, and it's definitely good in very specific cases.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

4. Look back at this thread, not a single person has wholeheartedly shared your opinion, I think that says something about what you are saying and you should really evaluate that.

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That is the worst kind of argument possible. I said i wouldn't reply to this kind of off topic stuff anymore but this is just too much, that is just not how being wrong/right works.

So, the "issue" is that you'll need to use one extra heal GCD or a healing cooldown to top off a DRK because of tanks going full VIT?
Woah, big deal...

Our group has been raiding for a few months now and we're a pretty average group. Not a single time Living Dead was an issue, so this "new problem because of VIT" won't change anything.
We'll probably ask our DRK to pair it with Convalescence just to be sure the first times, but then realize it's not even necessary, and forget about it.

I'll now end my post with a very famous quote from a wise man who understand this very specific subject:

"... Whatever."
- Squall Lionheart

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Originally Posted by Mike555

I dunno I can use Equilibrium + Second Wind to get to healthy levels after Holmgang as Warrior. I don't think LD is as bad as the OP is suggesting but it's still the weakest of the 3 except in very, very specific niche cases

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I would disagree with that, I've spent plenty of time on all three tanks and all three heals, to me Holmgang used in a genuine "oh shit" situation is by far the riskiest tank immunity to use because of just how short the duration is, 6 seconds flat, Holm gets used 1 - 2 seconds before the tank "dies" leaving the healer with only 1 - 2 GCDs before god mode is gone, and pretty often in dungeon situations that oh shit Holmgang has the tank trapped in multiple AoE markers so they're often slammed back down to 1 HP or close to it again before the buff expires. Getting a war back from that takes a lot better reaction time than a DRK from what feels like centuries long Walking Dead.

Yeah, in Gordias Savage I can't think of any situation where LD was ever a hinderance. You didn't even need it in A1S because DA+DM was the best magical cooldown ever. For A3S, you used it as a planned cooldown to eat the first hand cleave for more dps, plenty of time to deal with it, and WHM would let them sit on the WD status for a few seconds. For A4S sac method and handling the buster, Healer LB3 would address it. In raiding, it's not so much an oh snap button but rather a planned cooldown.

VIT won't really change things, and not to mention item level inflation will have healers getting more MND on the same token to heal more. So a lot of this is just huff-and-puff.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

That is the worst kind of argument possible. I said i wouldn't reply to this kind of off topic stuff anymore but this is just too much, that is just not how being wrong/right works.

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Except that in an mmo where "mobs"(that apperently being everyone who does not agree with you) get attention and make things happen if you are the only one who believes that there is a problem it doesn't get changed. Also you use very similar arguments in your posts.

Many people believe that the ability is fine, or at worst simply feel that it could do with a few tweaks, the majority rules in matters of people debating something generally.

That you call people who don't share your opinion strawmanning white knights and claim they are a mob is showing you to be unable to make a better case.

Many abilities could use tweaking, living dead can, others could claim abilities like blood for blood is broken and needs fixing, or cure, or cleric stance. Just because one person finds an issue does not make anyone who thinks its fine wrong no matter how you treat them.

Lol done with this topic, waste of a post count.

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Originally Posted by DeeColon

I would disagree with that, I've spent plenty of time on all three tanks and all three heals, to me Holmgang used in a genuine "oh shit" situation is by far the riskiest tank immunity to use because of just how short the duration is, 6 seconds flat, Holm gets used 1 - 2 seconds before the tank "dies" leaving the healer with only 1 - 2 GCDs before god mode is gone, and pretty often in dungeon situations that oh shit Holmgang has the tank trapped in multiple AoE markers so they're often slammed back down to 1 HP or close to it again before the buff expires. Getting a war back from that takes a lot better reaction time than a DRK from what feels like centuries long Walking Dead.

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I'm mostly wondering why you use dungeons as an argument. Dungeons are 20 minute snoozefests with zero challenge. In the vast majority of Ex primals or Alex fights I prefer holmgang to LD

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Originally Posted by Mike555

I'm mostly wondering why you use dungeons as an argument. Dungeons are 20 minute snoozefests with zero challenge. In the vast majority of Ex primals or Alex fights I prefer holmgang to LD

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I dunno either, in savage I feel no difference between the two at all.

Holmgang is better because I said so.
Get with the times folks 3:

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Originally Posted by technole

No, Holmgang is way better than LD simply because of the low cooldown time of 3 minutes. Like that allowed two uses in A1S back in the early days when we had to deal with 3 jumps, the other tank jobs couldn't even say the same about their immunities. Plus you can heal yourself with Equilibrium right after. The bind and target is just a hinderance. But it's far better than LD because the Warrior can address the 1 HP themselves before a healer can, not to mention other cooldowns to address HP. It's not even close, Holmgang is way better.

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An interesting thought. I agree - we can help ourselves out more. But take a look at the skill by itself, not in relation to things that may or may not already be in use (We're addressing the concern that the skill as an 'oh **** button, not planned use with other CD's.)


Holmgang -> Shortest duration @6seconds, leaves you at 1 HP, binds you in place (And if the cast of a mob starts after you get bound, this can kill you as soon as the effect wears off depending on how strong the enemies attack is, and ther's no way to foresee it outside of scripted content.)
Hallowed Ground -> Longest cast, equal duration to living dead's "Walking Dead" uptime. No input really needed outside of topping them off at your convenience through HoT's. Very strong, very good.
Living Dead -> Moderate Recast, moderate utility, the only drawback is "Your healer has to heal you for it." and this can be handled with CD's, just as Holmgang can be hnadled with CD's from your healer.

Holmgang's one-up primarily comes from the utility that was built into it - that is, the additional effect of the Knock-back resistance. As a main WArrior, I do not use Holmgang outside of "OH crap" moments, or telegraphed knock-backs that can be resisted (And, if mistimed, your holmgang can actually activate AFTER a knockback and bind you way out in the middle of nowhere.)

Now, I do think there are some things that could be done better with Living Dead, but I also think it's in a comfortable spot. But I think the issue is, we're all very subjective. A main Dark Knight is gonna want their skill to be stronger, just like the OP. And a main warrior is gonna think of their skill as weaker, just like myself. I can admit a degree of bias here, but at the same time, I can see the heavy bias for Living Dead, which is by far to me one of the most powerful skills I see.

But it might just be "The grass is greener" at that point.

Living Dead is just poorly designed. Either do as I said or add lifesteal on attacks during walking dead to help out healers. Hell have blood price give you HP too to reach that massive healing prereq.

Core issue of LD is DRK needs to coordinate with the Healer. Holmgang and Hallowed Ground are self serving and fall on the PLD/WAR.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Living Dead is just poorly designed. [...]
Core issue of LD is DRK needs to coordinate with the Healer. Holmgang and Hallowed Ground are self serving and fall on the PLD/WAR.

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That's not an issue of Living Dead, then, and this is something I kinda realised.


If you took Living Dead, and put it on WAR, and put Holmgang on Dark Knight. What would you have?

You'd still have Dark Knights complaining about having the "Weakest CD" because they have no way to help themselves. All the issues that come with Living Dead, comes with Holmgang. But Warrior's synergy with it's own CD's is just that potent that it helps mitigate the issues created by holmgang.

I spoke with my healer, and they summed it up pretty well.

"For fights where there will be AoE's on the ground, I'd rather heal a Dark Knight through their Living Dead. But for a fight with raid-wide damage, I'd rather heal a Warrior."

I think that's a pretty fair way to look at it - that Dark Knight is the only class that lacks synergy with its own CD.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

You'd still have Dark Knights complaining about having the "Weakest CD" because they have no way to help themselves.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't DA + soul eater help with LD? Likely not enough, but if DRK did see tweaks, I think this would be the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't DA + soul eater help with LD? Likely not enough, but if DRK did see tweaks, I think this would be the way to go.

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a quick DA'd soul eater on a mob in hinterlands
 You absorb 441 HP.
 You absorb 1767 HP.

so about 2k, a bit less than half a cure II from a healer. You could expect to drain about 200-400/hit for a total of 4 hits, so let's be generous and say 300*3 = 900 + 2,200 = 3,100~ roughly from self-healing can be offered via a dark knight, over the course of the full rotation.

It's sadly just a little underwhealming.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

a quick DA'd soul eater on a mob in hinterlands
 You absorb 441 HP.
 You absorb 1767 HP.

so about 2k, a bit less than half a cure II from a healer. You could expect to drain about 200-400/hit for a total of 4 hits, so let's be generous and say 300*3 = 900 + 2,200 = 3,100~ roughly from self-healing can be offered via a dark knight, over the course of the full rotation.

It's sadly just a little underwhealming.

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Yeah, I see that being underwhelming, perhaps if DA increased the healing to 150% or 200% this could be the perfect way to fix the synergy.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Core issue of LD is DRK needs to coordinate with the Healer.

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No, it's not.
Living Dead is used as a tank buster answer, just like Holmgang and HG. The main use of LD is in a raid environment. Your healers are already prepared for tank busters and know what LD does. Besides, if you're a good DRK, you put LD long enough in advance so that the healers see the icon and are aware of the fact that you used LD.

Holmgang is way more buttclenching since healers can't know exactly if the timing will be super good or if they'll have only 2 seconds after the tank buster to heal the WAR up. Living Dead always gives you 10 seconds no matter what, plus a maximum of 20 seconds for preparation if used early enough.

Only bad and clueless healers have trouble with LD. But you don't balance this kind of cooldown skill around bad players.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Stop white knighting ffs

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Originally Posted by Pibz

IDK why i bother posting anything on this forums, torrents of white knights are the only people i get. WTV Sure it's fine, every DRK is wrong, it's not like i did the whole last tier progression with it nor like i did every single progression in this game before, so WTF do i know of this stuff right?

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Non drk mains (you don't even have it leveled ffs) coming here to tell me they know more about my class than i do, this forums never cease to amaze me.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

You just went through the issue and refuse to see it, go play DRK for a significant time and come back to me.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

Yep i did, because experience is a thing, and if you don't have as much you're usually (nearly everytime) less qualified to talk about something. It's how the world works, sorry to disappoint.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

No, anyone who defends something just for the sake of defending is indeed a white knight.

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Holy crapola, do you even read what you type before you post it? You are so freaking hostile when people don't agree with your opinion. Yes, opinion. As in it is your opinion that Living Dead has imbalance issues. Other people posted their opinion about it and some disagree with you and wow I've seen a lot on this forum but I don't think I've seen someone get so mad and hostile so darn fast. Are you just trolling? I kinda hope you are because this level of rage/hostility isn't healthy :/

I am a main healer and honestly I get the same fright for either Holmgang or LD. So both are pretty scary in my opinion. Those moments my instant heals were on cool down I really scramble.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

No, it's not.
Living Dead is used as a tank buster answer, just like Holmgang and HG. The main use of LD is in a raid environment. Your healers are already prepared for tank busters and know what LD does. Besides, if you're a good DRK, you put LD long enough in advance so that the healers see the icon and are aware of the fact that you used LD.

Holmgang is way more buttclenching since healers can't know exactly if the timing will be super good or if they'll have only 2 seconds after the tank buster to heal the WAR up. Living Dead always gives you 10 seconds no matter what, plus a maximum of 20 seconds for preparation if used early enough.

Only bad and clueless healers have trouble with LD. But you don't balance this kind of cooldown skill around bad players.

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So Healers not paying attention is the problem? Then plop an obvious Walking Dead visual effect on the DRK if it gets to that point. Have a Grim Reaper or a visual countdown graphic hover above the DRK similar to "Doom" in previous entries in the series.

That way there can be no excuse.

Attacks while under walking dead should just heal you for the damage you deal. I mean you're a zombie after all. What kind of zombies don't eat their enemies? :X

I main Drk and Sch, and raid as Sch with a Drk MT. The only time I've ever had and issue with Living Dead is in DF. Tbh, I don't think it's too bad, your healer just needs to look at debuffs, which they should be anyway. As for the removal of the Walking Dead debuff, I think it can be a real pain unless you're ready for it, but if the tank is that low anyway, you're probably already spamming heals. It's all about awareness, and knowing which tools you need to use. I've heard other Sch say they have issues healing Drk from Living Dead, but with Fey Illumination to boost heals or Dissipation for those emergency stacks, I've had little to no problem in that department.

I only have two issues with LD:

1. The animation, even though it says "instant" it does take like 1.5s to activate. I literally died while my macro said it was active during a Ramuh tank buster before I could gather the orbs.
2. Healers can be quite good at their job but don't know how it works. If I pop it, let me die, please. So then you can use to oGcd and top me off or w/e, but they see the macro and instantly think they must go ahead and heal. Sure they heal me through the dmg and it can go one of two ways: Either I survive and LD got used for nothing or they heal through the dmg just to run out of oGCD and more dmg is coming underway to the group and myself and I get no heals or barely any heals if they run out of mana and I die regardless after taking the wallops of dmg.

No idea how to fix this, I even add to my macro to heal me after you see my hp at 1 since I won't be dying during the debuff time. I'm still learning how to tank better and popping oGcd to mitigate dmg but healers tend to have a harder time with me somehow, even if I am full Vit with my only str being two rings.

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Originally Posted by Daisy

Attacks while under walking dead should just heal you for the damage you deal. I mean you're a zombie after all. What kind of zombies don't eat their enemies? :X

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I actually like this idea. I see WAR heal quite a lot of dmg but DRK just have Souleater and I barely regen anything with that unless I use DA but even then that goes null once the boss hits me once.

I think the ability is alright, and I've been maining DRK since Heavensward launched. In a raid situation, your Healers should be on the look out during a Tank buster, and if your going through DF on a dunjin or something then you really shouldn't even need to use it.

So like....whats happening here exactly? All I know is Living Dead is a pain to recover and is tougher on healers leaving the penalty for the tanks death doubled for the healers for the fact they couldn't raise the tanks hp to 100%, but since it CAN be recovered there shouldn't be changes because it doesn't need to happen even though it'd make things more convenient and less stressful for the healers in the group, also making survivability better for the party as well?

Hmm....I'm seeing a pattern on these forums...

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

So like....whats happening here exactly?

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People have different opinions on living dead, I guess that's what is happening? A lot of people think it's in a good place but could use minor tweaks to animations and measures to prevent a mistimed heal (though having had time to think about it, if this is the case then you are using the skill far too early)

As a WHM who heals a DRK MT for LD I've never had any issue with it and dont see any real issue coming form the vit change, you dont need to use CD's as theres more than enough time to heal 100% hp just by spamming cure 2.

Sure lowering the heal requirement would be nice, but it isnt necessary to make the skill usable.