MCH, still as bad?

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

I suppose in that sense my comments on effort compared to bard don't hold (in raids at least), so I'll retract that :P I don't think that the difficulty in adapting cooldown usage is extreme enough to put off someone, I guess it comes down to playstyle preference though; a lot of people find MCH more "fluid" than Bard despite Wildfire's centralising nature.

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I'd argue that MCH is closer to 2.0's BRD gameplay with the instant casts and amount of oGCD weaving they can do, sans the wildfire bursts. But at the same time, those instant casts kind of defeat the point of GB in the first place. Beyond the ammo off cooldown and wildfire, you're just more focused on looking for procs to use, much like BRD spamming heavy shot and using SS when it falls off or it gets a proc.

And I guess a turret is a thing too, but there's so very little interaction with it almost feels as involved as ninja poisons.

BRD on the other hand, feels like a mess to play because WM feels like it's just patched on with no consideration of their original gameplay (esp since it involves an oGCD resetting it's cooldown).

If you run a search for the 75th percentile on fflogs in each of the savage fights, MCH are pulling better numbers than Bard at this point on A1, A3, and A4. Bards AOE is a little stronger with RoD procs. MCH are also outperforming on Thordan

http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=18
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=20
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/7#boss=21
http://www.fflogs.com/statistics/4#boss=1029

I feel like saying Bard single target dps is better is simply inaccurate. If you are talking about party dps via support then I agree Bards offensive support is better. But to say the Bard itself does more single target dps on its own than MCH is wrong, it does less than a MCH.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

If you run a search for the 75th percentile on fflogs in each of the savage fights, MCH are pulling better numbers than Bard at this point on A1, A3, and A4. Bards AOE is a little stronger with RoD procs. MCH are also outperforming on Thordan

I feel like saying Bard single target dps is better is simply inaccurate. If you are talking about party dps via support then I agree Bards offensive support is better. But to say the Bard itself does more single target dps on its own than MCH is wrong, it does less than a MCH.

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Aren't those averages though? If you're looking at the min/max, the BRD min is significantly lower than the MCH at times (which weighs down the average), and there's a lot more BRD parses compared to MCH(whom is completely under represented), during of which the max of MCH is consistently lower than the max of a BRD. It's hard to get a good average of MCH if it's under represented, but the max recorded output of MCH is consistently lower than that of a BRD.

It's a percentile, so basically the DPS it shows would the the number you'd have to place 250th/1,000 or 25th out of 100 (using whatever volume of parses it has for the last 2 weeks). On the A1 for example, over the last 2 weeks there have been 365 MCH completions uploaded, and 1,319 Bard parses. Overall volume shouldn't make a difference in the comparison since looking at percentile is a good way to equalize them, as placing 150th out of 300 is about the same as placing 500 out of 1,000. The higher the number the more accurate it becomes. But that's a substantial amount of parses in both cases that while not perfect, it's pretty good data.

Now, you are also correct in that in each case, the single max best parse is a BRD. So take with that what you will. Regardless, on Average Machinists are outputting higher damage. Also interesting if you use 50th percentile instead of 75th (basically using the true middle performance as opposed to 75th which could be considered a very good performance (my wording, its just opinion)) MCH has a larger gap than it does at the higher levels of play.

eg A1 75th percentile: MCH 1,168 BRD 1,150
50th percentile: MCH: 1,066 BRD: 1,025

Considering MCH is generally seen as more difficult to play, that’s actually a bit surprising to me. I by no means claim to have all the answers, or be the ultimate analyzer of the data. I am just pointing out that with all the “Bards do higher dps” sentiment out there, the data is not necessarily clearly pointing that out to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Considering MCH is generally seen as more difficult to play, that’s actually a bit surprising to me. I by no means claim to have all the answers, or be the ultimate analyzer of the data. I am just pointing out that with all the “Bards do higher dps” sentiment out there, the data is not necessarily clearly pointing that out to be the case.

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It's hard to take the values for face value in favor of MCH because MCH does not have a very large sample size (which means an inaccurate average) compared to BRD (who has a more accurate average, but that also gets affected by their min-recorded dps) when you're looking at percentile averages. If anything, it's just as about as credible as taking the maximum BRD DPS and objectively saying that BRD is more DPS than MCH.

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

I regard its difficulty more in terms of...fight knowledge I guess?

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I understand haha. Thank you for the mature explanation despite my post possibly coming across as a bit snarky (though that wasn't what I intended it to be lol).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's hard to take the values for face value in favor of MCH because MCH does not have a very large sample size (which means an inaccurate average) compared to BRD (who has a more accurate average, but that also gets affected by their min-recorded dps) when you're looking at percentile averages. If anything, it's just as about as credible as taking the maximum BRD DPS and objectively saying that BRD is more DPS than MCH.

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No... The former is statistically sound and the latter is not. There is no inaccuracy to the average. MCH is not underrepresented, there are actually more players playing bard (due to bard being out 4 years ago and machinist 6 months), if anything they over represent MCH since I'm sure there are more than 10 times the amount of players playing the older classes individually than the newer classes individually.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Considering MCH is generally seen as more difficult to play, that’s actually a bit surprising to me. I by no means claim to have all the answers, or be the ultimate analyzer of the data. I am just pointing out that with all the “Bards do higher dps” sentiment out there, the data is not necessarily clearly pointing that out to be the case.

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But is it more difficult to play? I think some people just want to make their job sound like a great challenge compared to the alternatives. You can take this with a grain of salt considering I've really only been putting effort into MCH for maybe 1 1/2 months. But I seem to pull respectable numbers from what I can tell. I find MCH, for the most part, a little easier than BRD. I explained some of the reasons earlier in the this thread. And when I say that I don't mean to say that BRD is so much more complicated and challenging. Not at all. They're overall probably similar in difficulty. Each jobs with its own ups and downs.

The main challenge I find with MCH at my current skill level is identifying procs with no ammo. I admittedly miss a few here and there. And I've had my turret cleaved more than a few times in A3S. I've gotten better about replacing my turret asap in those scenarios, but it helps to have communication from other raid members in case I miss it. The other thing is if you're pushing legs much faster than progression pace in A4S. Managing CDs at that time becomes a little annoying. Instead of popping wildfire at the beginning of each leg you may have to wait until after adds if you want your wildfire to do much of anything. Takes some adjustment if you're not used to it. But it does for any job.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

eg A1 75th percentile: MCH 1,168 BRD 1,150
50th percentile: MCH: 1,066 BRD: 1,025

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BRDs in A1S should pull ahead of equally skilled/geared MCH with the same comp if they are keeping both Oppressors dotted at all times due to BRD dot potency alone. If they're not doing this, then yea, it's not difficult for a MCH to pull equal or slightly better numbers. One 30s dot is easier to manage than two 18s dots. The dot upkeep on BRD, especially while handling adds, requires more thought to GCD management. And if you drop your dots on BRD 2 GCDs are required to correct the error. Or 4 if you drop dots on both Oppressors. Much greater potency loss compared to dropping Lead Shot for a GCD. Things to consider.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

No... The former is statistically sound and the latter is not. There is no inaccuracy to the average. MCH is not underrepresented, there are actually more players playing bard (due to bard being out 4 years ago and machinist 6 months), if anything they over represent MCH since I'm sure there are more than 10 times the amount of players playing the older classes individually than the newer classes individually.

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It's inaccurate to use as a comparison to something that has a much larger data sample, versus using it as an average for individual performance. And the fact that it's a "new job" isn't a good excuse for something to have a relatively smaller data to compare, looking at DRK:PLD numbers.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Managing CDs at that time becomes a little annoying. Instead of popping wildfire at the beginning of each leg you may have to wait until after adds if you want your wildfire to do much of anything. Takes some adjustment if you're not used to it. But it does for any job.

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Wildfire is probably the only big difference between a BRDand MCH. It's both frustrating and satisfying to use, the very nature of it makes it very inflexible to when it can be done; burst damage on adds or trash is out of the question if they die too fast, and wildfire by itself is very ineffective, especially if you can't dedicate the full 15 seconds. It's different, and messing up wildfire (which in itself is less veristile and flexible in it's use) is more detrimental to a BRD missing an extra GCD or two during their cooldowns; you have that feeling of dying inside when you goofed up wildfire, but oyu'd have to actually try (or mess up cooldown timing big time) to goof up something like barrage empyreal.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

BRDs in A1S should pull ahead of equally skilled/geared MCH with the same comp if they are keeping both Oppressor's dotted at all times due to BRD dot potency alone. If they're not doing this, then yea, it's not difficult for a MCH to pull equal or slightly better numbers. One 30s dot is easier to manage than two 18s dots. The dot upkeep on BRD, especially while handling adds, requires more thought to GCD management. And if you drop your dots on BRD 2 GCDs are required to correct the error. Much greater potency loss compared to dropping Lead Shot for a GCD. Things to consider.

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As mentioned earlier, the percentiles are averages that are missing some context if you just look at it for face value. If you look at the maximum parsed performance, there's a whooping 100 dps difference between the best recorded BRD and MCH.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Wildfire is probably the only big difference between a BRDand MCH. It's both frustrating and satisfying to use, the very nature of it makes it very inflexible to when it can be done; burst damage on adds or trash is out of the question if they die too fast, and wildfire by itself is very ineffective, especially if you can't dedicate the full 15 seconds. It's different, and messing up wildfire (which in itself is less veristile and flexible in it's use) is more detrimental to a BRD missing an extra GCD or two during their cooldowns; you have that feeling of dying inside when you goofed up wildfire, but oyu'd have to actually try (or mess up cooldown timing big time) to goof up something like barrage empyreal.

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These are the main reasons why I enjoy BRD over MCH. I enjoy how flexible MCH is with their ammo system/movement and mixing their CD's in different situations for optimal performance, but Wildfire just kills me. (that and if you pre-load ammo before a pull is annoying to maintain)

Like you say, you can't really mess up Barrage + EA, and it is un-affected by things you are concerned about for WF, other than possibly the boss going Invuln as you fire.

I don't think the WF design is a good trade off for MCH for how easy the class is over BRD.

I feel that a 10s Duration with 35% damage would synergize a bit more with the class and fight mechanics. So I think I'll stick with BRD for now especially for how interesting/dynamic BRD is with gear scaling.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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On my end, I'm playing MCH because I need to have a feel of difference from how I was playing 2.0. In BRD's case, I just feel like it's regressed more than anything because of WM working against river of blood and the inherent nature of BRD. On MCH's end, it largely feels the same as 2.0 BRD because of the instant casts and oGCD usage, with the difference being wildfire (which is also a slap/kiss relationship with me).

Gear scaling is also another thing, BRD is going to benefit and scale a lot more from crit more than MCH can ever hope to do because of RoB and BRD's overall potency being from themselves rather than part of it being from a secondary source (the turret), and I feel like that's where the difference is going to grow as the Ilvl increases. That's not even getting into how BRD j has far better tools for progression (with DPS checks being the primary bottleneck anyway) because of rain of death and foe requiem for overall dps.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

MCH's single target damage should be buffed to above BRD level since it requires more skill to play well.

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This apparently isn't common knowledge, but Mch does higher dps than bard almost across the board. It requires more skill almost exclusively because it does higher damage.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's inaccurate to use as a comparison to something that has a much larger data sample, versus using it as an average for individual performance. And the fact that it's a "new job" isn't a good excuse for something to have a relatively smaller data to compare, looking at DRK:PLD numbers.

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Technically off topic, but I think you have some obvious observation bias here. If you look at any census data (i.e. the ones they officially release: http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/Eorze...N_Census_L.PNG) it will be obvious that there are far more players playing older classes (i.e. pld) than newer classes (i.e. drk). The fact that DRK is over represented in the percentile should tell you that making an argument based on sample size is unsound.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Technically off topic, but I think you have some obvious observation bias here. If you look at any census data (i.e. the ones they officially release: http://www.finalfantasyxiv.com/Eorze...N_Census_L.PNG) it will be obvious that there are far more players playing older classes (i.e. pld) than newer classes (i.e. drk). The fact that DRK is over represented in the percentile should tell you that making an argument based on sample size is unsound.

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That census is dated a while back though, and I don't recall the critera on whether it was level 50, 60, or mained (the last being next to impossible to determined). Though stepping away from the numbers, I went back to see what the poster is conveying. It's a different context within the relevant discussion (single target dps vs effective raid dps).

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Originally Posted by jssanderson747

This apparently isn't common knowledge, but Mch does higher dps than bard almost across the board. It requires more skill almost exclusively because it does higher damage.

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It's not common knowledge because MCH isn't doing more than BRD across the board. Most of the encounters allow for double DoTing which favors BRD's passive and dynamics, and some of the fights work against MCH's tool kit (such as invulnerability phases for delaying wildfire bursts, or adds diluting ricochet)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

That census is dated a while back though, and I don't recall the critera on whether it was level 50, 60, or mained (the last being next to impossible to determined). Though stepping away from the numbers, I went back to see what the poster is conveying. It's a different context within the relevant discussion (single target dps vs effective raid dps).



It's not common knowledge because MCH isn't doing more than BRD across the board. Most of the encounters allow for double DoTing which favors BRD's passive and dynamics, and some of the fights work against MCH's tool kit (such as invulnerability phases for delaying wildfire bursts, or adds diluting ricochet)

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But isn't that kind of the same across the board for jobs in general? Such as BLM to summoner and Dragoon to monk.

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Originally Posted by jssanderson747

This apparently isn't common knowledge, but Mch does higher dps than bard almost across the board. It requires more skill almost exclusively because it does higher damage.

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One, no it does not. Two the only reason MCH would even appear to do more is because of hyper charge. Which if a BRD had access to it would just boost them more. Any fight that has more than one mob in it, MCH is at a huge disadvantage. BRD double dotting and OGCD aoe is monstrously strong.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

One, no it does not. Two the only reason MCH would even appear to do more is because of hyper charge. Which if a BRD had access to it would just boost them more. Any fight that has more than one mob in it, MCH is at a huge disadvantage. BRD double dotting and OGCD aoe is monstrously strong.

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I think you are confusing "MCH is at a huge disadvantage" with "Bard gains a slight bonus". How does a fight having more than one mob decrease the dps of MCH (I'll give you a hint, it doesn't)? Also the statement "the only reason MCH would even appear to do more is because" is kind of things one would say when in denial...

I'm currently leveling my MCH and it's only at 45 but I don't feel like it's harder then BRD was, I just feel like everything leads to Wildfire and then afterwards, while it is on cooldown, you're just waiting for it to come back, where as a BRD, you kind of just unloaded everything when it popped up.

One thing I wish for is that Foot Graze and Suppressive Fire did damage. They both kind of just sit on my hotbar, unused, and I would love to have another attack to weave in-between my weaponskills when Reload isn't up.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

I think you are confusing "MCH is at a huge disadvantage" with "Bard gains a slight bonus". How does a fight having more than one mob decrease the dps of MCH (I'll give you a hint, it doesn't)? Also the statement "the only reason MCH would even appear to do more is because" is kind of things one would say when in denial...

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BRD dots do 30 more potency per target, and tick faster 18s vs 30s so they have the ability to get the full duration out of their dots a lot easier on mobs than MCH do. Not only do they get the full duration quicker they also get increased chance of procs. Also do not put words in my mouth. I never said MCH dps gets lower, I just said that they are at a huge disadvantage whenever there is more than 1 target to hit. The gap is already there before multiple targets, the addition of more just makes it bigger.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

BRD dots do 30 more potency per target, and tick faster 18s vs 30s so they have the ability to get the full duration out of their dots a lot easier on mobs than MCH do. Not only do they get the full duration quicker they also get increased chance of procs. Also do not put words in my mouth. I never said MCH dps gets lower, I just said that they are at a huge disadvantage whenever there is more than 1 target to hit. The gap is already there before multiple targets, the addition of more just makes it bigger.

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The DPS of bard improving does not affect the DPS of MCH whatsoever, there is no "disadvantage". That like saying "Bard is at a HUGE!1!! disadvantage when there is a summoner in the party in A2S!!!!", which is clearly false... Then you ask, "how is bard related to summoner?". And I rebuttal with "How is MCH related to BRD?". Of course you'll reply "They are both ranged". And then upon realizing that SMN is ranged, you'll see that it doesn't matter. You don't see BLMs complain about SMN in similar situations because it's a non-issue. It's kind of hard to make all class the same dps, when all of them (barring all 3 melee classes) have RNG elements. Because of this simple impossibility there will be a natural ordering of the classes, where in certain situations, one class will be better than another class. And even then, some classes in very out of the norm situations can get unnaturally high dps just by favor of RNG (which was likely the case when you see bard at the top of the distribution, but not in general). I also could make the case that monk is at a disadvantage to bard when in a multi-target scenario, but no one would care, similar to you're argument with MCH.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

The DPS of bard improving does not affect the DPS of MCH whatsoever, there is no "disadvantage". That like saying "Bard is at a HUGE!1!! disadvantage when there is a summoner in the party in A2S!!!!", which is clearly false... Then you ask, "how is bard related to summoner?". And I rebuttal with "How is MCH related to BRD?". Of course you'll reply "They are both ranged". And then upon realizing that SMN is ranged, you'll see that it doesn't matter. You don't see BLMs complain about SMN in similar situations because it's a non-issue. It's kind of hard to make all class the same dps, when all of them (barring all 3 melee classes) have RNG elements. Because of this simple impossibility there will be a natural ordering of the classes, where in certain situations, one class will be better than another class. And even then, some classes in very out of the norm situations can get unnaturally high dps just by favor of RNG (which was likely the case when you see bard at the top of the distribution, but not in general). I also could make the case that monk is at a disadvantage to bard when in a multi-target scenario, but no one would care, similar to you're argument with MCH.

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I see you like arguing just for the sake of arguing. MCH and BRD are categorized together because they both perform the same function. Restoration of resources. Any progression group will only have one or the other so they are compared to one another. The problem here is not that BRDs perform better in certain fights, its they perform better in every fight. In a normal progression scenario BRD will do more personal DPS and has foes to boost casters further solidifying their status at the top. While MCH may have hyper charge, it really does not keep up with BV foes which can be used 3 times in A3S and A4S.

And again I will say, do not put words in my mouth.

When we're arguing about semantics, there's nothing else left for discussion.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

I see you like arguing just for the sake of arguing. MCH and BRD are categorized together because they both perform the same function. Restoration of resources. Any progression group will only have one or the other so they are compared to one another. The problem here is not that BRDs perform better in certain fights, its they perform better in every fight. In a normal progression scenario BRD will do more personal DPS and has foes to boost casters further solidifying their status at the top. While MCH may have hyper charge, it really does not keep up with BV foes which can be used 3 times in A3S and A4S.

And again I will say, do not put words in my mouth.

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Yeah except that's wrong (you were even given proof for the opposite, where MCH performs better in every tier) and you dismiss it as "skewed data" with still nothing to support your own PoV. Maybe if you stop being bad you will become a statistic and be better than the bard.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Yeah except that's wrong (you were even given proof for the opposite, where MCH performs better in every tier) and you dismiss it as "skewed data" with still nothing to support your own PoV. Maybe if you stop being bad you will become a statistic and be better than the bard.

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I have been shown absolutely nothing. I have checked FFlogs my self and MCH is lower than BRD on EVERY savage fight by 100+ DPS. You claim I dismiss this data that I wasn't presented as skewed but the data I am looking at confirms my point. I assume you are smart enough character to proceed to FFlogs and check these numbers I am claiming. All one must do is navigate through the tabs at the top. Yet again I will tell you, stop putting words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Yeah except that's wrong (you were even given proof for the opposite, where MCH performs better in every tier) and you dismiss it as "skewed data" with still nothing to support your own PoV. Maybe if you stop being bad you will become a statistic and be better than the bard.

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BRD is performing better in every encounter. Even if you go back to Sidra's links, the max output of a BRD (and this is only going by the last 2 weeks) is still higher than what MCH has done.

Well yeah bard is better due to it's abilities, cross class, GCD, etc. It's much easier to pull off, much easier to push the DPS to that scale. While MCH it requires players to think on when to use it at the right moment despite losing a bit of DPS, yet at the same time it can stay on top when played well. After playing both classes, yes BRD is better on the DPS output in like 5-8min of the fight, but in a long term fight I see MCH pulling off much better w/ their tools that they have.

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Originally Posted by Osmond

Well yeah bard is better due to it's abilities, cross class, GCD, etc. It's much easier to pull off, much easier to push the DPS to that scale. While MCH it requires players to think on when to use it at the right moment despite losing a bit of DPS, yet at the same time it can stay on top when played well. After playing both classes, yes BRD is better on the DPS output in like 5-8min of the fight, but in a long term fight I see MCH pulling off much better w/ their tools that they have.

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100~200 DPS is not a little bit. And there is not a single fight where when played optimally MCH wins. MCH loses overall in personal AND raid DPS. It does not matter how well you play the class, it is a design issue, not a player issue.

SO....is the result of this thread that noone wants a MCH in a party, cos they can't do anything better than a bard?

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Originally Posted by Nirurin

SO....is the result of this thread that noone wants a MCH in a party, cos they can't do anything better than a bard?

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No. That's not the point of the thread. MCH isn't bad to the point that it has no place in a raid, but it's not wrong to say to say that MCH isn't as good as a BRD in most circumstances, or that it's less preferable for cutting edge progression.

It goes back to release when both BRD and MCH were signifcantly behind other dps because WM/GB hardly boosted their dps (if not straight up lower it in some circumstances), and they lagged behind other jobs (whom had tools that increased their dps). Top that off with the encounters not not taxing mp/tp usage enough to ever require a regen, it was bad enough in some cases that BRD/MCH was a liability to get clears in (esp when Bismarck on release was a bit heavy on dps checks). It's not the case now, but there are some distinct advantages excllusive to BRD that MCH doesn't have, which gives them an edge in progression (not to mention that they scale better from stats than MCH too, esp crit)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's not the case now, but there are some distinct advantages excllusive to BRD that MCH doesn't have, which gives them an edge in progression (not to mention that they scale better from stats than MCH too, esp crit)

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Hmm, that doesn't sound good. Is MCH at least a fun class to play as? It must have some reason to play it haha

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Originally Posted by Nirurin

Hmm, that doesn't sound good. Is MCH at least a fun class to play as? It must have some reason to play it haha

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Fun is subjective. I personally prefer it over BRD, but that's only because I can't stand WM on BRD. I'd say give it a shot at least. Once you get to lvl 54 you more or less have the full rotation.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Fun is subjective. I personally prefer it over BRD, but that's only because I can't stand WM on BRD. I'd say give it a shot at least. Once you get to lvl 54 you more or less have the full rotation.

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Ahuhuhuhuhu. ;)

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Ahuhuhuhuhu. ;)

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Armageddon outta here.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Armageddon outta here.

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Get out, you're bard

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Fun is subjective. I personally prefer it over BRD, but that's only because I can't stand WM on BRD. I'd say give it a shot at least. Once you get to lvl 54 you more or less have the full rotation.

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I though gauss barrel was effectively the same as WM? Is there a difference that makes it less annoying?

While I'm asking a question, heres another - Which is better at AoE? I've read two conflicting threads, one says MCH and the other says BRD. Though I think the MCH one also added in crowd control to mch as being a big plus.

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Originally Posted by Nirurin

I though gauss barrel was effectively the same as WM? Is there a difference that makes it less annoying?

While I'm asking a question, heres another - Which is better at AoE? I've read two conflicting threads, one says MCH and the other says BRD. Though I think the MCH one also added in crowd control to mch as being a big plus.

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They're both functionally the same, but BRD has river of blood which resets their oGCD cooldowns. MCH is also more reliant on procs which give them instant casts on specific weaponskills, so they're roughly closer to 2.0 BRD's gameplay. BRD has a proc as well that gives them instant cast, but it's not as prominent. To me, it's more on "GB messes up less things on MCH than it does on BRD"

I'd say BRD's AoE is infinitely better due to multi-dotting for multiple RoDs. Bishop is nice and all, but it's only 60 potency that's unaffected by gauss barrel.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

They're both functionally the same, but BRD has river of blood which resets their oGCD cooldowns. MCH is also more reliant on procs which give them instant casts on specific weaponskills, so they're roughly closer to 2.0 BRD's gameplay. BRD has a proc as well that gives them instant cast, but it's not as prominent. To me, it's more on "GB messes up less things on MCH than it does on BRD"

I'd say BRD's AoE is infinitely better due to multi-dotting for multiple RoDs. Bishop is nice and all, but it's only 60 potency that's unaffected by gauss barrel.

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Is bishop the best AoE mch has? What about spread shot and grenade shot? Or are they just rubbish compared to bard?

Not that it's a big deal, mostly single target damage is the way to go, I was just curious. Trying to learn things ^^

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Originally Posted by Nirurin

Is bishop the best AoE mch has? What about spread shot and grenade shot? Or are they just rubbish compared to bard?

Not that it's a big deal, mostly single target damage is the way to go, I was just curious. Trying to learn things ^^

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They're not mutally exclusive. You have spread shot and grenado, but that mirrors what bard has (quick notch and wide volley) down to the potency, so I'm mostly referencing what's exclusive to the respective jobs. (bishop turret vs rain of death potential)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

They're not mutally exclusive. You have spread shot and grenado, but that mirrors what bard has (quick notch and wide volley) down to the potency, so I'm mostly referencing what's exclusive to the respective jobs. (bishop turret vs rain of death potential)

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Also ricochet I guess for MCH, but thats only once a minute so probably doesn't help a big deal except with an opening burst

From playing both BRD and MCH my feelings is that MCH was built around GB while BRD had WM tacked on without proper re-balancing. With GB active you have 3 instant cast (4 with Feint) and 2 procs. Add on Reload/Quick Reload with Rapid Fire and you are a walking turret yourself.

AOE depends on pack sizes and CDs. I approach packs of 4+ with bishop on hypercharge with grenado shot until out of tp, then followed with an invigorate and single shot rotation. Packs of 3 or less then use rook with lead shot kept on all enemies while single shooting. Many MCH likes using spread shot over Grenado Shot, but the positions can be tricky, esp with a random tank. You'll also find players who think that if they don't hear the pew pew of spread shot then you're not aoeing.

As for which is better, it all boils down to the player. Raw numbers can say what happens in a perfect world, but players aren't perfect. I've leveled all ranged classes to 60 and I can pull higher damage consecutively from a MCH than any other.