Pretending to dps in dungeons, is this a new fad?

SCH's DPS output isn't just about raw damage - the DoTs you apply also apply debuffs that make stuff hurt the party less less. Even just running in and dropping a Miasma II on a group of mobs gives them a Gravity effect, making it easier for your tank to dance just out of attack range while also dodging AOEs. Virus isn't even a DoT, it's a "let's make this next big nasty movie do 10% less damage to everyone" ability or "let's make this limit break do 10% more damage and kill the boss for really reals."

SCH has Eos as a backup because SCH as the tactician has a ton of other abilities to help the flow of the fight besides curing, and she's there to spot heal while you do those other non healing things.

That doesn't mean you have to DPS full time. It's just that a SCH who tosses out a Swiftcast + Shadowflare at the start of the fight gets so much more respect than one who lets Eos spam her stuff willy nilly and only tosses cures.

On the subject of the OP: I had a fellow DPS who lazy'd it in Expert roulette over the weekend. Took us 40 minutes to get through Pharos HM because my bard's DPS is good, but not enough by itself. Then last night I was partnered with a MNK who actually knew how to do his job, and we breezed through in 21 minutes. It was beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

I main a healer and do nothing but heal. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class, I chose a healer to heal and keep people alive not DPS.

Kick me if you want but my role is to keep you alive and that is it.

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Hey if you want to be a poor player, that is your own perogative. Don't lecture others on requesting people to be better though.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Is she? The game never tells you that being a healer = dps/healer hybrid. She probaly picked a healer class and expected to only heal and lets be honest, majority of us picked the healer classes to heal, the dps is a extra. A extra that did not show up, untill we were geared up and were speed runing dungeons mid 2.0.

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Healers were never told to DPS in the way that Damage Dealers were never told to stand in AoEs. That is, I'm fairly certain both were told this, just not in so many words. In fact, this guy was an Arcanist (DPS class) for the first 30 levels.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

I love that we have the option to dps as a healer, I love doing alot of dps on my tanks and I am the dps that casts Eye For Eye and Virus. I believe that using all the abilities that you have to support the group is something everyone should do, but this is how I play and does not mean that it is the correct one.

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You're right, it's not necessarily correct. I mean that depends how you define correct. For this guy's situation, Is correct the way that the developers intended? Then yeah it's incorrect. Is correct the way that supports the team the best and results in a better player? Then yeah it's incorrect. If correct is just the way you want to do it and you pay your own sub, then yeah it's correct.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

The way I see it:
Tanks need to keep agro and use defensive skills.
DPS need to do the most damage that they can and use their dps buff skills (many do not use this, why?)
Healers keep everyone alive, raise the dead and make sure the buffs are up.

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That is the bare bone, but all of the jobs have much more to them and that is what differentiates people who play well and don't. For example, a tank who keeps agro and uses defense mitigation, but faces the bad guy towards the group? => Bad tank. DPS that uses all of their DPS skills and buffs and parses like crazy, but ignroes every mechanic and dies to every AOE? => Bad dps. Healers that keep everyone alive and don't use all of their skills (i.e. DPS) available to help the party? => Bad Healer.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Aslong players are doing these things, they are doing their job, in my opinion. Everything else is extra. That DPS that uses Virus or Eye For Eye or helps healing when the Healer is having troubles keeping everyone alive is a amazing player. The Tanks that contributes by doing alot of damage, they are amazing players. The Healers that are able to switch between healing and dealing damage, are amazing players.

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I'll make sure to die to every AoE next time I'm queued with you, as apparently I'll still be doing my job.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Bixillarla might not be taking full adventage of her skills, but this does not mean that she is not doing her job. Lets not forget prior to 3.0 not being able to do speed runs meant you as a player were not doing your job. Untill SE comes here and says that Healers NEED to do DPS, I reckon Bixillarla is doing her job correctly.

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No one is saying (s)he is not doing his/her job, they're saying that player is bad.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

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So if a tank does nothing but hold hate through enmity attacks are they still a good tank? What about a DPS that just uses their strongest abilities without taking advantage of their supportive abilities (Mantra, Second Wind etc.)? A healer who does nothing but heal is a detriment to the party. If you are going to be lazy and stand around when healing isn't need you are a bad healer. FFXIV isn't the same as other MMOs. Yes, it is never stated that a healer HAS to DPS. But you want to be seen as a good healer in this game then you should at least attempt to do so, even if you don't stance dance. I just see it as pure laziness or an unwillingness to learn your role to its fullest.

I picked to be a healer to heal. But learning that we could also DPS between times of healing, to help take the monsters down faster, I saw it as another way to be to support my party. If something is dead it doesn't do damage. Standing around and doing nothing when you don't need to heal is a hindrance on the party. You are not helping them, or yourself.

I got the other category of players that purposedly in a low level dungeon gear normally eat all the aoes and when asked why the answer was: because it speeds up the LB2, but at the same time drains my mana at hyper speed, next I will make sure that whoever eats an aoe more then 2x, I will let him die...all categories in a dungeon you will meet....nothing you can do.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

I got the other category of players that purposedly in a low level dungeon gear normally eat all the aoes and when asked why the answer was: because it speeds up the LB2, but at the same time drains my mana at hyper speed, next I will make sure that whoever eats an aoe more then 2x, I will let him die...all categories in a dungeon you will meet....nothing you can do.

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Doesn't it only speed it up if you let them get under 10% before intervening?

Personally, I think this fad is not real players but bots.

A few weeks ago, while leveling WAR, there was a SMN that had no pet out at all and was only casting Ruin.

Then, last night a BRD that literally only used Straight Shot.

Both times, when asked what was up, it was dead silence. Both times, a considerable amount of time was spent AFK. Both were kicked from the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

The way I see it:
Tanks need to keep agro and use defensive skills.
DPS need to do the most damage that they can and use their dps buff skills (many do not use this, why?)
Healers keep everyone alive, raise the dead and make sure the buffs are up.

Aslong players are doing these things, they are doing their job, in my opinion. Everything else is extra. That DPS that uses Virus or Eye For Eye or helps healing when the Healer is having troubles keeping everyone alive is a amazing player. The Tanks that contributes by doing alot of damage, they are amazing players. The Healers that are able to switch between healing and dealing damage, are amazing players.

Bixillarla might not be taking full adventage of her skills, but this does not mean that she is not doing her job. Lets not forget prior to 3.0 not being able to do speed runs meant you as a player were not doing your job. Untill SE comes here and says that Healers NEED to do DPS, I reckon Bixillarla is doing her job correctly.

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Our "job" is to clear content.

People don't run VA just to tank something/heal someone/dps things. We are in there for loot drops and ESO. In order to obtain these items, you must clear content. (pretty simple right???) I would be able to run an entire dungeon usine the combination of shield lob, flash and circle of scorn (for aggro) along with defensive cooldowns and still do my job according to you. Would any one of you believe this is acceptable???

Why does a healer get a free pass for doing nothing for the 10 seconds inbetween cure cast times? (I am disregarding times when mass damage is going out and all you can do is spam heals, those spikes of damage happen, but they do not run for the entire length of a fight)

I am tired of the "it's not my job" argument. It is a self-centered thought and a crutch that too many people hide behind. So you rolled a healer, and your job is to "only" heal. Please let me know when 8 healers clear Titan (or any other content) by only healing.

I am not asking for healers to put up 1k dps - but you can do something.

People seem to lose sight on the fact that there are 3/7/23 other players in the same room with them, and that the content being worked is a TEAM effort.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Please let me know when 8 healers clear Titan (or any other content) by only healing.

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Anyone else facepalming a little at that?

It's a trinity game. There are people whose job is to make sure the bad guy doesn't attack the squishies, there are people whose job is to make the bad guy die and there are people whose job is to keep all the other guys alive.

Those are the so called "roles" you queue up for. You cannot beat content with the entire party only healing and that is exactly why there are tank and DPS slots. If you feel like filling more than one role, that's a commendable effort, but not part of your job. Your job is clearly defined by your role.

And if you don't like that, ask for the trinity to be abolished. Then everyone is responsible for everything.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Why does a healer get a free pass for doing nothing for the 10 seconds inbetween cure cast times?

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Our 'job' is to have fun. The game gives us dungeons and missions to have fun with. And if you think healing is so easy that they're sitting on their thumbs all day then you try it. And yes, I have tried it. I've tried healing in most pre-Heavensward dungeons, even pre-nerf Pharos, and it's not as easy as you'd like to think. Speaking of pre-nerf Pharos... never beat it as healer. Not once. As Bard I've cleared it repeatedly, but never as healer. It's a tough job without DD'ing, always having to weigh which spell to use (though Scholar has that easier than White Mage), having to bank your time so that you aren't stuck casting one spell when you really need to cast something else. Having to jam the healing cause you needed to move and someone else didn't.

Personally, I'm actually more appreciative of a healer patiently waiting to heal over one that's mixing in attack spells. It tends to mean that any damage that pops up will be dealt with immediately. Too often I've seen healers who, in trying to DD, burn through their mp healing because they forgot to dispel Cleric Stance or letting the tank die because they waiting out casting times. This is especially prevalent when tanks are committing the other faux pas of forcing speed runs. I'd rather the healer be focused on healing so that when it's needed it's there and when it's not it's ready and waiting.

I'll admit, I'm scared to death of healing, but I've healed Levi X unsynced before (albeit not very well, lol) and I still managed to put out dots on the boss and adds. And if this paranoid Scholar could do it, than a super experienced healer should have no problem. I do have trouble with stance dancing though.

Could this be related to people being bored with the tomestone treadmill we've been on since 2.0?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Anyone else facepalming a little at that?

It's a trinity game. There are people whose job is to make sure the bad guy doesn't attack the squishies, there are people whose job is to make the bad guy die and there are people whose job is to keep all the other guys alive.

Those are the so called "roles" you queue up for. You cannot beat content with the entire party only healing and that is exactly why there are tank and DPS slots. If you feel like filling more than one role, that's a commendable effort, but not part of your job. Your job is clearly defined by your role.

And if you don't like that, ask for the trinity to be abolished. Then everyone is responsible for everything.

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I face-palmed as much at that comment (for it being a little irrelevant) as much as I did your post.

Your job is defined by your job quest lines and your skills that you're given. In all of the healer quest lines, you're taught to both heal and DPS. One of the first skills that you acquire as a CNJ is Cleric Stance. It's quite clearly thrown in your face that you DPS as well as Heal. Your role is your responsibility, but it does not define your every action.

As I said before, if you want to play poorly, that is your choice. Just don't defend it.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Our 'job' is to have fun. The game gives us dungeons and missions to have fun with. And if you think healing is so easy that they're sitting on their thumbs all day then you try it. And yes, I have tried it. I've tried healing in most pre-Heavensward dungeons, even pre-nerf Pharos, and it's not as easy as you'd like to think. Speaking of pre-nerf Pharos... never beat it as healer. Not once. As Bard I've cleared it repeatedly, but never as healer. It's a tough job without DD'ing, always having to weigh which spell to use (though Scholar has that easier than White Mage), having to bank your time so that you aren't stuck casting one spell when you really need to cast something else. Having to jam the healing cause you needed to move and someone else didn't.

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I'm sorry to hear you had problems with healing, it's clearly not for everyone. I have personally healed every dungeon and most raids in this game. I've mostly done this as a SCH, but some as a WHM. The only times in a dungeon when DPSing is difficult are when there are very large pulls - but even then you can swiftcast Holy for aoe stun, throw up Aero III, holy and swap back out of cleric stance to keep healing. If you were to just heal and never DPS in every dungeon, I would wager that you'd spend about 70% of your time not doing anything.


(EDIT I reached my maximum daily posts already?)

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Heh, so my job as Ninja is to protect other people? Interesting to say the least. "I" thought I was just there to make things dead. I shall keep that in mind in the future. Maybe I'll try smokescreening the tank so he doesn't come to harm.

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All of our jobs are to protect people, we are the Warriors of Light. However, I feel you have vastly over simplified the Ninja quest line.

Adding to my post again (Wish I could just reply, this limit is lame). I'm not really sure why you are so stubborn and set on playing to the worst possible level. I'm also not sure why you are against having an adult conversation on the whole thing. I'll admit, I have no idea what the 50-60 quest line is for Ninja, but each quest line I have done teaches you how to play your job and how to use your new skills. This includes teaching healers both how to heal and how to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Your job is defined by your job quest lines and your skills that you're given.

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Heh, so my job as Ninja is to protect other people? Interesting to say the least. "I" thought I was just there to make things dead. I shall keep that in mind in the future. Maybe I'll try smokescreening the tank so he doesn't come to harm.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

However, I feel you have vastly over simplified the Ninja quest line.

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Hey, it's what the entirety of 50-60 revolves around. Tanking is (apparently) integral to my job and from now on, I shall refer to your post whenever someone tells me it's not.

After all, I don't want to be labeled a bad player for ignoring what my class quests taught me.


Now "I" know that this reasoning is ricidulous. I just wonder when you start to question it.

It is hard to put my finger on why this is happening more and more, but my perspective is this: The majority of players are strictly average or below average, and white knighting their lack skill or ability is rather annoying when it comes to doing EX content. I have been so frustrated with the lack of commitment from not only DPS but the lazy standing doing nothing healers that only contribute to the long drawn out dungeons I have to do over and over and over.

Some one earlier mentioned the difference between a 21 minute run versus a 40 min run is an extra hour I have to spend in a dungeon every 3 dungeons. I have better things to be doing than carrying a bunch of lazy players.

I only dps on my astrologian in dungeons because some idiot dps is afk auto-attacking.....

I can not understand healers that don't DPS or at least try to DPS, if Cleric Stance did not exist, I would have died of boredom already.

If we have to do only the bare minimum to do our "jobs", then tanks don't need to use defensive CDs and DPSs only need to use their first skill over and over again.

I'll quote a post I did a while back:

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Originally Posted by Eothas

In my opinion, a healer that doesn't DPS when they are familiar with the content are just being lazy or bad. I have seen tanks doing their best, using defensive CDs, self-healing, mitigating alot of damage while the healer was just there, looking pretty wandering around, doing nothing. I never said anything to these healers, but IMO they are not good at all.

Excuse-me, but using cure II every 7 seconds is not doing a healers job, it's just being lazy. If you are there needing to heal a lot, using AoE heals, dispelling debuffs, dodging mechanics and keeping the party alive and doesn't have time to DPS, then sure, you are doing your primary job and thats great. but if you are in a simpler content and you have alot of time to DPS and don't do it, to me you are the same as a DPS that do only 300 DPS while they could be doing 1000+.

When I am healing, I always try to contribute with some DPS, not only because it makes the run go faster, but because it's fun aswell.

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Had a DRG in almost full i210 mistbeak gear in Diadem HM (and only DRG stuff dropped with even good stats).... If there hadn't been an occasional B4B and life Surge I had guessed he is afk following... never using other CDs not even a Heavy Thrust up.... note that guy had all classes on 60 >.>
but I cannot say much to auto attacks but maybe the reason I get commis on my DPS classes while totally derping and failing base rotations and getting a comment like "DPS is good"? lol

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Originally Posted by Zojha

...It's a trinity game. There are people whose job is to make sure the bad guy doesn't attack the squishies, there are people whose job is to make the bad guy die and there are people whose job is to keep all the other guys alive.

Those are the so called "roles" you queue up for. You cannot beat content with the entire party only healing and that is exactly why there are tank and DPS slots. If you feel like filling more than one role, that's a commendable effort, but not part of your job. Your job is clearly defined by your role.....

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Again, you are listing only the primary role for the specific class. Yes I have a role as a tank, that if I do not do, makes everyone else’s role much harder. Holding agro and using cool downs is not my only role in any content. I ask you specifically, would you consider me “performing my role” if I were simply spamming flash to hold hate and using cool downs? I sure as hell wouldn’t.

Your PRIMARY job is tied to the class you queued up as. This does not mean this is your only responsibility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhCmuA6Qvog Ifrit ex 8 healer clear for giggles. Sure it’s unsynched and overgeared, but it is also 8 healers both healing AND dpsing. --- (referencing the tounge in cheek comment that, yes was irrelevant )

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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“job” is in reference to the original quote by Laerune, (which I have now put in bold to avoid further misinterpretation)

Not once did I claim healing was easy. If you read the entire post, you would also realize that I was excluding points in fights which crap out damage and crazy healing must occur.
I specifically refer to points in a fight where mass damage is not going out , the tank is not taking extra damage due to a tank buster, and you don’t have to cast a heal on the tank but once every 10 seconds. When these moments occur, why do you get 3 GCD’s to AFK? Are you saying it is impossible to spend 1 GCD on a dot during these points? I don’t demand that you as a healer use all available gcd’s to dps when you aren’t needed to heal. I don’t even care if you don’t even go into cleric stance to drop your dot. I don’t expect my healers to crank out insane DPS, but I expect you to do something once in a while when you aren’t directly healing.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

snip.

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Like everything else healing takes practice... Healing isn't for everyone, just like tanking and playing a damage dealer.

And you're more appreciative of a healer who does nothing when they don't need to heal? And seriously, you are going to use a bad healer trying to DPS as an example? Alright. That seems completely fair. A good healer is better than both things you have mentioned. Healing damage "immediately" isn't always required and a healer should be able to determine when healing is truly needed. Dodging AoEs is everyone's responsibility, and if you aren't doing it it isn't the healers responsibility to correct your mistake. If everyone did what they were supposed to then the healer should have plenty of time to heal the tank and DPS. Outside unavoidable damage DPS can generally be ignored for a bit, or given a HoT.

You have absolutely no idea how a good healer works in FFXIV. That much is clear. If you think a healer standing around is getting their healing "ready" then you clearly don't understand the job. A healer should not be healing a tank just because they lost 5% of their HP. That's a waste of resources and is pure laziness or inexperience. Healers should be able to judge the situation and react, or predict, accordingly. If someone makes a mistake it is not on the healer to rectify it, but they can try to help with quick reactions.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Snip

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This may be from your experience but its a very narrow minded, and frankly, ignorant view of healers. Again, as other's have said, if you are a healer and just standing around doing nothing most of the time or are casting healing spells every 2.5-4 seconds healing probably isn't for you. There is nothing fun bout just standing around waiting for the rest of your team to take damage and kill the enemies, especially when you have tools to make both of these things easier.

And I'm sorry, but using "this healer did this and this healer did that so its better if a healer just waits on hand and foot for when we need them" is a garbage argument. Bad healer's are not an argument against the actual full potential of the job. And I'm sorry that you are more "appreciative" of a healer that does nothing 50%-70% of the time (in most dungeons).

Also just because a tank falls below 50% health, or a healer is casting an attack spell doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. Besides, I'd first go and blame a Tank for dying in the time it takes for a Healer to get a healing spell off (in reference to this: "letting the tank die because they waiting out casting times") since most spells are all on the GCD, and many are instant, or the healer WAS bad (for a different reason) and should have known better because the tank wasn't geared well enough to take 2-3 hits.

How, anyway, is standing around 'fun' anyway? How is not using your kit to the full potential not fun? Your first point and your many point after that actually contradict eachother. Since, the goal for everyone is to have fun yet you are saying that healers should play this way because... You see what I'm saying?

The problem with reading on forums is misinformation. I lucked out on Dragoon as someone put up a priority system instead of a rotation, and that is wonderful when level sync neuters you and takes away key abilities instead of just weakening them.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

That DPS that uses Virus or Eye For Eye or helps healing when the Healer is having troubles keeping everyone alive is a amazing player. The Tanks that contributes by doing alot of damage, they are amazing players.

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Let's get something straight here.

A BLK or SMN who Virus or E4E are great, and a SMN who rezzes is great too. But any DPS who thinks the Healer needs help and thinks their Physicks are helping (you know, more than their DPS would be) are bad, just plain bad.

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Originally Posted by LurkerREM

The problem with reading on forums is misinformation. I lucked out on Dragoon as someone put up a priority system instead of a rotation, and that is wonderful when level sync neuters you and takes away key abilities instead of just weakening them.

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A rotation is just an ideal way of handling your priority system. Every job has a priority system and you can correctly execute a good rotation when you understand why you're using the skills you're using, and why you're using them in the order you're using them. Blindly using a set of skills without knowing "why" is very foolish, so I definitely agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Let's get something straight here.

A BLK or SMN who Virus or E4E are great, and a SMN who rezzes is great too. But any DPS who thinks the Healer needs help and thinks their Physicks are helping (you know, more than their DPS would be) are bad, just plain bad.

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I'd go so far as to say the BLM's/SMN's who use Eye for an Eye without discussing it with the healer are more of a pain than anything else.

Keep in mind, virus applies antibodies. I had a BLM Who used Virus as part of a rotation so he'd mitigate auto attacks. Then a tank buster came. Which I couldn't mitigate because Black Mage. >:o

Interesting, a topic about dealing with poor damage output from damage dealers, and it's turned into yet another feeding frenzy attacking a healer that would prefer to be a healer....

Notice that this healer has been roundly criticized by many, essentially saying that they are a bad player. Then there was the reference to lodestone information about their main class, and further belittling criticism using that information, accusations of being lazy, along with the obligatory Sylphie meme and of course a DPS stating that the best way to prevent the party from dying is to kill things faster.

Why is it that some just *have* to criticize and belittle a healer, because they are not playing a hybrid role of damage dealing healer, and don't want to? The topic was primarily about Damage Dealers in dungeons standing around doing more or less nothing but base attacks and auto attacks. So why is a healer being attacked because they don't both heal and make up for crap damage dealers?

As Zojha pointed out, this is a trinity based game, healers are meant to be there to heal, tanks are there to tank and damage dealers are there to kill stuff. It's pretty simple really. The only time tanks and healers need to stance dance into their DPS stance to push DPS is in end-game. If the damage dealers in the party are so deplorable that even in a regular dungeon the extra DPS from healers and tanks is *needed* to complete the dungeon, it's not the fault of the healer or tank. If a healer finds time to add some extra DPS to their play, that's great, but it's not expected. If a tank can manage their cool downs and stance to safely boost their damage output, that's nice too, but it's also optional.

The truth is that in regular dungeons (which is what the OP talks about) if the DPS are even just average, the dungeon can be cleared without any additional help from healers or tanks. If healers are required to DPS because the damage dealers are crap, so be it. But let's not castigate the healer for wanting to be a healer when the actual problem is that the damage dealers would apparently prefer to play the role of a fallen tree in the forest.

The solution to lazy, no good damage dealers is not demanding more of healers and tanks. Their DPS is and always should be optional. Quite why anyone feels it's necessary or appropriate to attack other players over something that is optional is beyond me, but it is symptomatic of the anger, lack of respect, poor cooperation and intolerance that makes the English speaking player community so rewarding to be a part of....

The solution to deplorable damage dealers is to ask them to do better, and if they don't and don't care, kick them. As was pointed out in another post, if your damage dealers are sitting on a near full TP bar, and things are dying slowly, then it's time to tell them to put their big boy trousers on and do their damned job; if they can't be bothered to do so, kick them.

In a topic about dealing with lazy damage dealers not doing their job, the answer is not to criticize good tanks and healers for not doing more. All that does is excuse crap damage dealers and alienate even more healers and tanks which is not exactly something we need to be doing.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I'd go so far as to say the BLM's/SMN's who use Eye for an Eye without discussing it with the healer are more of a pain than anything else.

Keep in mind, virus applies antibodies. I had a BLM Who used Virus as part of a rotation so he'd mitigate auto attacks. Then a tank buster came. Which I couldn't mitigate because Black Mage. >:o

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Eye for an Eye won't prevent anything, and if you have 2 healers and 2 casters applying it, there can be 100% up time. This is definitely a good one to coordinate, but not necessary to.

Virus, I agree with. Though, in part, the issue is due to a lack of understanding of the fight. i.e. I will sometimes apply virus without discussion with the healers, because I know that generally healers use virus at X time or on Y mob, and I know a tank buster is coming up. My virus in those instances is not necessary, but it can help ease the load a little.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Interesting, a topic about dealing with poor damage output from damage dealers, and it's turned into yet another feeding frenzy attacking a healer that would prefer to be a healer....

Notice that this healer has been roundly criticized by many, essentially saying that they are a bad player. Then there was the reference to lodestone information about their main class, and further belittling criticism using that information, accusations of being lazy, along with the obligatory Sylphie meme and of course a DPS stating that the best way to prevent the party from dying is to kill things faster.

Why is it that some just *have* to criticize and belittle a healer, because they are not playing a hybrid role of damage dealing healer, and don't want to? The topic was primarily about Damage Dealers in dungeons standing around doing more or less nothing but base attacks and auto attacks. So why is a healer being attacked because they don't both heal and make up for crap damage dealers?

As Zojha pointed out, this is a trinity based game, healers are meant to be there to heal, tanks are there to tank and damage dealers are there to kill stuff. It's pretty simple really. The only time tanks and healers need to stance dance into their DPS stance to push DPS is in end-game. If the damage dealers in the party are so deplorable that even in a regular dungeon the extra DPS from healers and tanks is *needed* to complete the dungeon, it's not the fault of the healer or tank. If a healer finds time to add some extra DPS to their play, that's great, but it's not expected. If a tank can manage their cool downs and stance to safely boost their damage output, that's nice too, but it's also optional.

The truth is that in regular dungeons (which is what the OP talks about) if the DPS are even just average, the dungeon can be cleared without any additional help from healers or tanks. If healers are required to DPS because the damage dealers are crap, so be it. But let's not castigate the healer for wanting to be a healer when the actual problem is that the damage dealers would apparently prefer to play the role of a fallen tree in the forest.

The solution to lazy, no good damage dealers is not demanding more of healers and tanks. Their DPS is and always should be optional. Quite why anyone feels it's necessary or appropriate to attack other players over something that is optional is beyond me, but it is symptomatic of the anger, lack of respect, poor cooperation and intolerance that makes the English speaking player community so rewarding to be a part of....

The solution to deplorable damage dealers is to ask them to do better, and if they don't and don't care, kick them. As was pointed out in another post, if your damage dealers are sitting on a near full TP bar, and things are dying slowly, then it's time to tell them to put their big boy trousers on and do their damned job; if they can't be bothered to do so, kick them.

In a topic about dealing with lazy damage dealers not doing their job, the answer is not to criticize good tanks and healers for not doing more. All that does is excuse crap damage dealers and alienate even more healers and tanks which is not exactly something we need to be doing.

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It was their choice to exclaim that they don't want to do damage and project that sentiment on the rest of us. We argued back of why this makes one a bad player.

I am not sure how it turned around on healers, and I agree we did go off topic, but imo (s)he brought it upon him/herself by making such a wild proclamation.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I don't really care either way if a healer helps DPS or not, but my point was that the extra damage does help drop the mobs faster which in turn helps the group survive. As annoying as it is to see lazy DPS, it can also be annoying to see a healer that just stands there and tosses occasional heals just to "keep people alive". If you're really invested in the group''s survival then there are more ways to help than just doing the very basic function of your job - and that applies to everyone, not just healers.

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I find that when I heal, how much damage I do is directly related to how skilled the tank is. Sometimes I can DPS the whole run; sometimes I just can't risk it without someone dropping dead. And if I'm struggling with a bad tank, I am vary unlikely to be courteous to some lippy dps harping on me to do their job for them.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

It was their choice to exclaim that they don't want to do damage and project that sentiment on the rest of us. We argued back of why this makes one a bad player.

I am not sure how it turned around on healers, and I agree we did go off topic, but imo (s)he brought it upon him/herself by making such a wild proclamation.

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No, please stop. You're continuing a witch hunt against a healer for wanting to heal. They didn't say they'd never do any damage, they simply said that if they wanted to be a damage dealer they'd play that job. That player is probably wondering what the hell they did to deserve the degree of hostility they've experienced in this thread.

The heart of this issue is not a healer wanting to heal without having, what appears to be (based on the comments of many here), a mandatory damage dealing requirement in addition to the responsibility of healing. The heart of the issue is poor damage output by damage dealers. Why do we need to depend on the healer to increase their damage output in regular dungeons? If this was a discussion about end-game or even EX content, then yeah, there is a point to be argued, but that's a different discussion.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Eye for an Eye won't prevent anything, and if you have 2 healers and 2 casters applying it, there can be 100% up time. This is definitely a good one to coordinate, but not necessary to.

Virus, I agree with. Though, in part, the issue is due to a lack of understanding of the fight. i.e. I will sometimes apply virus without discussion with the healers, because I know that generally healers use virus at X time or on Y mob, and I know a tank buster is coming up. My virus in those instances is not necessary, but it can help ease the load a little.

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Meant to type virus, sorry. lol

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Originally Posted by Laerune

The game never tells you that being a healer = dps/healer hybrid.

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Pretty sure the game tells you you're a healer/dps hybrid when:
*Conjurer's first spell is Stone and you learn Cleric's Stance at lvl 6
*Arcanists first spells are Ruin and Bio

Good luck trying to beat class and job quests without Cleric's Stance and DPSing if all you wanna do is heal.

Here's the bread and butter to make DPSing as a healer completely viable and not so stressful:

White Mage:
Stoneskin prepull
Divine Seal+Regen+Asylum(Medica2 if you want but usually Divine Seal Regen does the trick) Eye for an Eye, Virus
BAM! You're good to DPS with Holy's, Aero3, Assize, Stone3 etc.

Scholar:
Adloquium+Stoneskin prepull
Rouse+Fairy doing it's thing, Eye for an Eye, Virus
BAM! Shadow Flare, DoT's, etc.

Astrologian:
Stoneskin+Aspected Benefic(Noct) prepull, switch to Diurnal Sect before battle starts
Synastry tank+Aspected Benefic(Diurnal)+Collective Unconcious(Aspected Helios(Diurnal) if you want but the previous things should be fine) Disable. Optional:Time Dilation to extend the duration of the HoT's/Card buff.
BAM! Free to DPS with Gravity, Dot's, Malefic2 etc.

These are just examples of how I've managed to stance dance with no problems.

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Originally Posted by Pells

I find that when I heal, how much damage I do is directly related to how skilled the tank is.

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QFT

Last night, ran two of the expert dungeons. The first, the tank was so good I could DPS about 80-90% of the time. The second was so bad I spent the entire time spam healing Cure IIs (not to mention all of my regens) just to keep her alive.

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Originally Posted by xXRaineXx

snip healers are lazy and its hard

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Easy way to cause a wipe is to try and be a super healer stance dancing and when you really need that big heal you lagged on hitting cleric and dont heal enough and someone dies. It's now a dps loss.

Most healers dps is a fraction of the tanks/dps.

If its between mechanics and for adds sure. But their job is to heal. Just like a tanks responsibility first and foremost is to be in a tank stance keeping hate, not in a dps stance trying to be a dps.... which causes the healer to not have any time to really dps because they have to heal the tank who thinks they are dps.

PS. Holy takes a shit ton of mana and during chain pulls and big pulls maybe 1 or 2 is okay.

Just depends on the group. If its a FC run sure ill dps in cleric stance because I know my teammates wont go full retard.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

In a topic about dealing with lazy damage dealers not doing their job, the answer is not to criticize good tanks and healers for not doing more. All that does is excuse crap damage dealers and alienate even more healers and tanks which is not exactly something we need to be doing.

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I definitely agree with you that a lazy DPS should be addressed first and foremost instead of looking at how much damage a healer or tank are doing if a run is going incredibly slow or if a dps check is not being met.

At the same time, however, you said "not criticize a good tank or healer for doing more", and well, a tank or healer that just performs their basic duties doesn't exactly make them "good", you know? Like, I could spam flash on PLD, or go DRK or WAR and face a single target and spam my Power Slash combo (DRK agro combo) or Butcher's Block combo, but there is so much more that I can do. Yeah, this is a trinity-based game, but I think that all of us really need to look outside the box we're placing ourselves into and branch out. Like someone else said in this post, personally, I don't see my job in a run as "just DPS", or "just heal", or "just keep enmity and use my cooldowns"; my job is to help my group as hard as I can. If you don't want to be the very best in content that doesn't require you to do so, that's cool, but we have to stop this whole "this is my role and I'm gonna do the least that is required of me".

There used to be a lot of threads where BRD's would say "I am DPS job so I do not need to support. If I decide to sing, that's a luxury", and the same goes for all the other jobs in this game. SMN's have battle res, you won't refuse to use it just because you're not "healer role". NIN's have a TON of utility now, being able to Shadewalker a tank before a pull, goading someone after they get under 60% TP (which is no excuse now that TP bars are visible), using Smoke Screen on a WAR OT when they go HAM in their starting triple fell cleave burst, or using it on a healer right before a demanding ad phase. Heavensward has given the jobs we play a LOT of new skills that let us become more flexible as players and branch out beyond our stated roles. For example, I can use my DPS stance as WAR when I use Bloodbath and Berserk and get more HP back, giving myself more self-sustain AND increasing my group's DPS. I can keep using my Souleater combo as DRK to get HP back every third combo and help out my healer more and also do more DPS. What I'm trying to get at is that doing the minimum you can is really silly when you look at the number of skills you have now and refuse to incorporate them to help your group.

As for healers, it really depends. I've had horrible, horrible tanks that require me to babysit them because they are literally made out of tracing paper, so yeah, there will be times when you can't DPS , but having a good tank and just standing there not doing anything is just plain lazy and there's no excuse for that.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

QFT

Last night, ran two of the expert dungeons. The first, the tank was so good I could DPS about 80-90% of the time. The second was so bad I spent the entire time spam healing Cure IIs (not to mention all of my regents) just to keep her alive.

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I feel your pain. I only play with one tank and she's #2 to the letter. :(

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, please stop. You're continuing a witch hunt against a healer for wanting to heal. They didn't say they'd never do any damage, they simply said that if they wanted to be a damage dealer they'd play that job. That player is probably wondering what the hell they did to deserve the degree of hostility they've experienced in this thread.

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You are extremely over-exagerating the situation.

I am simply stating that choosing to not DPS results in playing poorly. It is no different than a Bard who would say "I don't sing songs, I made a DPS". Sure they can do that, but it makes them a bad player.

Witch hunt? That is extremely hyperbolic of the situation.

I've seen very little hostility, and only people challenging what was said. This is a discussion forum. When you make a post on a discussion forum, expect people to challenge you. I expected people to challenge me (like yourself), and am now standing by my statement and backing up my reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The heart of this issue is not a healer wanting to heal without having, what appears to be (based on the comments of many here), a mandatory damage dealing requirement in addition to the responsibility of healing. The heart of the issue is poor damage output by damage dealers. Why do we need to depend on the healer to increase their damage output in regular dungeons?

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You are right, we got off topic. It is insane to hear that people are afk-dpsing. I don't personally expect much out of DPS in a DF, but that is a new low.


Just as a reference, Healers putting out damage is unrelated to whether a DPS is putting out damage. I don't do my job at 50% because someone else is doing it at 100% and I don't do my job at 100% because someone else is doing theirs at 50%. I do my job at 100%, because this is a team game and I am contributing what I can.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

If this was a discussion about end-game or even EX content, then yeah, there is a point to be argued, but that's a different discussion.

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DPSing as a healer in ex primals and raids is much more difficult and I can understand why they may opt to heal only, at least while they get familiar with things. However, DPSing in a dungeon is incredibly easy, and there is no reason not to.

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Originally Posted by Roll

Good luck trying to beat class and job quests without Cleric's Stance and DPSing then.

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Thing is, those instances are the reason they do have attack spell. So they can solo private instances without too much trouble. Party content, though, is not the same. There's a tank to take the damage and DDs to deal the damage. But these are other players, with their own life bars, making the healer's role keeping them alive through the damage. Anything more than that is for them to determine if they're able, not you nor me.

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Originally Posted by Odett

you said "not criticize a good tank or healer for doing more", and well, a tank or healer that just performs their basic duties doesn't exactly make them "good", you know? Like, I could spam flash on PLD, or go DRK or WAR and face a single target and spam my Power Slash combo (DRK agro combo) or Butcher's Block combo, but there is so much more that I can do.

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Yes, I know. A good tank uses their cooldowns and skills to minimize the damage taken and maximize their hate and damage. Yet you are implying that I am equating a good tank with a flashing PLD? Come on, please stop using ridiculous hyperbole just to argue.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Yeah, this is a trinity-based game, but I think that all of us really need to look outside the box we're placing ourselves into and branch out. Like someone else said in this post, personally, I don't see my job in a run as "just DPS", or "just heal", or "just keep enmity and use my cooldowns"; my job is to help my group as hard as I can. If you don't want to be the very best in content that doesn't require you to do so, that's cool, but we have to stop this whole "this is my role and I'm gonna do the least that is required of me".

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I said this;

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this is a trinity based game, healers are meant to be there to heal, tanks are there to tank and damage dealers are there to kill stuff. It's pretty simple really. The only time tanks and healers need to stance dance into their DPS stance to push DPS is in end-game. If the damage dealers in the party are so deplorable that even in a regular dungeon the extra DPS from healers and tanks is *needed* to complete the dungeon, it's not the fault of the healer or tank. If a healer finds time to add some extra DPS to their play, that's great, but it's not expected. If a tank can manage their cool downs and stance to safely boost their damage output, that's nice too, but it's also optional.

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Now, why are you reading that and concluding that I think;

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Originally Posted by Odett

"this is my role and I'm gonna do the least that is required of me".

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That's not at all what I am saying, at all. I pointed out that both healers and tanks can do additional things beyond their primary role, and that although that is optional, it's great when they do. To me, that's closer to saying that players should do everything they can to support the team, than it is to what you're arguing.

The minimum *ANY* player needs to do in this or any multiplayer game is be an effective and valuable team member.

The minimum does not mean chronically underperforming in your primary role and ignoring your secondary role.

Please lets just not go down this road of a pointless argument about things not said, OK?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

DPSing as a healer in ex primals and raids is much more difficult and I can understand why they may opt to heal only, at least while they get familiar with things. However, DPSing in a dungeon is incredibly easy, and there is no reason not to.

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I know that, what I was getting at is that the only time I've seen truly valid points about healers and tanks *needing* to increase their damage output is in Alex Savage discussions.

As I've tried to make clear to Odette as well, I am not saying that healers should not do any damage, I'm saying that we should not be placing that expectation on them.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

snip

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can't quote you entirely due to post limit.

I'm mostly agreeing with you, so perhaps I should have been clearer, I was not personally addressing you when I said "I will perform my minimum role", but players that think like that.

I also explained how you could just use your Power Slash Combo as DRK and Butcher's Block combo with WAR, not stance dancing on WAR and always staying on Defiance. Those are not hyperboles and many players do that. You get more leeway as a PLD because RoH is the only agro combo that has utility due to the STR debuff, but on DRK and WAR, agro for the sake of agro is completely useless and you are a bad tank if you only use Butcher's Block or Power Slash, because Souleater, Delirium, and Storm's Eye not only increase DPS, but also your mitigation. using Holy on a mass pull as WHM stuns monsters and the tank receives less damage. DPS can be its own form of healing and damage mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

DPSing as a healer in ex primals and raids is much more difficult and I can understand why they may opt to heal only, at least while they get familiar with things. However, DPSing in a dungeon is incredibly easy, and there is no reason not to.

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If by "incredibly easy" you mean the same as a DPS class parsing 1k+ in said dungeons, then I agree.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I know that, what I was getting at is that the only time I've seen truly valid points about healers and tanks *needing* to increase their damage output is in Alex Savage discussions.

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Who said that a healer *needs* to DPS? Just curious, I did not see it.