Savage Clear rate being lower the Devs expected, good or a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Velhart

May I ask why -one- raid/dungeon in this game has to cater specifically to the casual market? Why shouldn't there be content for the best of the best? The 1% excuse is not viable. With that logic, no MMO's should have really hard end game raids.

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It is kinda hard justifying development if said content isn't even touched by the majority of the playerbase. A dungeon truly designed so that only the top 1% would attempt to clear it would probably be seen as a waste of time and effort. This game isn't designed for just the 1% to do. That's why the devs design fights around what percentages of players are willing to clear it by x amount of time. If people aren't even interested to play it, or are leaving because of it, what's the point of giving the playerbase more of what doesn't appeal to them?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

It is kinda hard justifying development if said content isn't even touched by the majority of the playerbase. That's why the devs design fights around what percentages of players are willing to clear it. If people aren't even interested to play it, or are leaving because of it, what's the point of giving the playerbase more of what doesn't appeal to them?

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I don't like content like "Coils" so I pretty much on a few accounts just avoided it. Its just not fun content.

It matches well with the 0.12% score.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

May I ask why -one- raid/dungeon in this game has to cater specifically to the casual market? Why shouldn't there be content for the best of the best? The 1% excuse is not viable. With that logic, no MMO's should have really hard end game raids.

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So, Coil was casual content? What does that make alex normal? Mega casual content? I am not arguing for no challenge what so ever, I am simply being practical.

You have three difficulties we can reference:

Easy - alex N - for casuals
Normal - what coil was before echo - for general raiders
Hard - savage coil/alex - for raiding elite.

If we can only have two, why would you want to give the general raiding population the short end of the stick? SE is obviously going to have some easy version for the casual crowd leaving us a choice between normal and hard. If giving the general raiding population, that 10% of the population that cleared coil without echo, a raid they can complete in a reasonable amount of time, then I am all for giving the raiding elite the short end of the stick. I would also count myself as part of that sub 1%, but I don't want to spend another three months working on just four bosses. It was not fun, at all.

Also I think besides issues like many posted with their own statics, and maintaining them. There's people who would like to try savage, but those statics looking for people want people with experience or progressed so far. Leaving the inexperienced who wanna try it, out. Very very rare do I see a learning group, and when u join one in PF, it's usually a one shot then most leave. Or people who Aren't ready join in anyway, making it harder for others.

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Originally Posted by zosia

If we can only have two, why would you want to give the general raiding population, the short end of the stick? S

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Because a thing called echo buff exists. If you can't beat it now, wait till then with more gear and beat it later. If I recall, the only thing holding most people back from doing SCoB(Savage) was lack of rewards. Raiding is never going to appeal to a large audience no matter how well balanced it is unless you make it stupid easy like it is right now. If what you are seriously asking for in difficulty is Too Easy > Mode that can be beaten by most groups before the odd number patch hits, then I think our conversation is done.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Because a thing called echo buff exists. If you can't beat it now, wait till then with more gear and beat it later. If I recall, the only thing holding most people back from doing SCoB(Savage) was lack of rewards. Raiding is never going to appeal to a large audience no matter how well balanced it is unless you make it stupid easy like it is right now. If what you are seriously asking for in difficulty is Too Easy > Mode that can be beaten by most groups before the odd number patch hits, then I think our conversation is done.

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Well, I'm never gonna throw my face at content that rewards pennies more then easy content.

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Originally Posted by zosia

So, Coil was casual content? What does that make alex normal? Mega casual content? I am not arguing for no challenge what so ever, I am simply being practical.

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Coil when it has echo and is considered old content is more oriented to casuals. IMO, that's better than nerfing a content that's designed to be hard (IE, savage), which kind of goes against it's entire premise, assuming that SE wanted savage to be difficult and that only the most dedicated can clear it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Because a thing called echo buff exists. If you can't beat it now, wait till then with more gear and beat it later. If I recall, the only thing holding most people back from doing SCoB(Savage) was lack of rewards. Raiding is never going to appeal to a large audience no matter how well balanced it is unless you make it stupid easy like it is right now. If what you are seriously asking for in difficulty is Too Easy > Mode that can be beaten by most groups before the odd number patch hits, then I think our conversation is done.

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So, then what is a better solution? The current meta will destroy this game's raiding community so something has to change. It really does not matter, they said they will not be using the same difficulty division for 3.2. We are probably going to get normal coil difficulty level back. So, you're right, our conversation is done.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Coil when it has echo and is considered old content is more oriented to casuals. IMO, that's better than nerfing a content that's designed to be hard (IE, savage), which kind of goes against it's entire premise, assuming that SE wanted savage to be difficult and that only the most dedicated can clear it in the first place.

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I don't understand the distinction you are making, if you agree, disagree or are just commenting. I think coil without the echo was geared towards the general raiding population. I agree coil with echo was more for the casual crowd and that nerfing savage alex or SCOB seems to directly contradict the idea of savage.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

It is kinda hard justifying development if said content isn't even touched by the majority of the playerbase. A dungeon truly designed so that only the top 1% would attempt to clear it would probably be seen as a waste of time and effort. This game isn't designed for just the 1% to do. That's why the devs design fights around what percentages of players are willing to clear it by x amount of time. If people aren't even interested to play it, or are leaving because of it, what's the point of giving the playerbase more of what doesn't appeal to them?

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1% being able to clear != 1% attempting it.

How many games do you play and don't finish ;).

Also if if was too easy people would simply do it and be done and never repeat it after gearing up. Instead this forces people to become better players.

Most of the people I knew who ran Coil have stopped raiding now, and many of them have left the game entirely. Normal Alex is a face-roll. Savage is boring up until A3S, and then A3S is a months-long face bashing to get absolutely nothing worthwhile-- the gear all looks the same, we've already seen the cutscenes on day one in Alex Normal, and fights aren't even fun. I guess that's a good thing if SE wanted to kill raiding for the majority of people who ran and enjoyed Coil.

Our group just stopped raiding when the lack of new content dried up. We just got tired of it. We had been raiding since the first Coils and most of us just agreed to take a break. We had already seen the story involved with Alexander and the gear was the exact same in terms of looks to its easy counterpart.

Why go through the effort at that point? Mandze knows what's up.

It's a bad thing.

One of the most problematic consequences of the high difficulty level of Savage is the smaller pool of players capable of and/or interested in clearing it. That causes a lot of problem for recruiting, as there aren't enough available players to support a large number of groups. This can kind of snowball, too, in that if there aren't a lot of groups, it's harder for folks to learn the fights and get engaged with raiding, causing more players to step away from the raiding scene over time.

The smaller the raiding community gets, the harder it is to justify the manpower and time spent creating content for that community. There has to be some kind of middle ground--enough players need to be engaging with (and coming back to) the content for long enough that the development time is actually worth it.

Savage modes in and of themselves are not bad. Anecdotally, though, my server had about the same number of groups that cleared SCOB (Savage) that have been clearing Alexander (Savage), which was a rather small fraction of those that were clearing SCOB itself. The raiding community's shrunk substantially here, and some longtime groups left the server entirely.

There's nothing wrong with savage being savage.
What is wrong is the lack of other things to do.

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Originally Posted by Alexftw

1% being able to clear != 1% attempting it.

How many games do you play and don't finish ;).

Also if if was too easy people would simply do it and be done and never repeat it after gearing up. Instead this forces people to become better players.

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Go run a raid group and try replacing someone like a tank or healer once you're on a4s. Let me know how it works out for you. You are skimming the surface of the issues here. Even with SREX weapons next week, only a handful of groups will be getting clears. This whole "git gud" argument has destroyed raiding communities across a majority of the servers. There is no content tier out there for the average joe raider.

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Originally Posted by Mandze

Most of the people I knew who ran Coil have stopped raiding now, and many of them have left the game entirely. Normal Alex is a face-roll. Savage is boring up until A3S, and then A3S is a months-long face bashing to get absolutely nothing worthwhile-- the gear all looks the same, we've already seen the cutscenes on day one in Alex Normal, and fights aren't even fun. I guess that's a good thing if SE wanted to kill raiding for the majority of people who ran and enjoyed Coil.

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QFT x 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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Originally Posted by zosia

So, then what is a better solution? The current meta will destroy this game's raiding community so something has to change. It really does not matter, they said they will not be using the same difficulty division for 3.2. We are probably going to get normal coil difficulty level back. So, you're right, our conversation is done.



I don't understand the distinction you are making, if you agree, disagree or are just commenting. I think coil without the echo was geared towards the general raiding population. I agree coil with echo was more for the casual crowd and that nerfing savage alex or SCOB seems to directly contradict the idea of savage.

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Mostly on the commenting since I'm not too caught up on whose on what side of the argument. My stance on the matter is that they should have content that appeals to the general raiding population (going by your description) is utmost importance since they make up for a good chunk of the community. The casual crowd would still be able to attempt said content and might take a step up, but the alternative of waiting until it gets nerfed is also there (not to mention this is also retroactive by the time content comes out due to eso gear and the like). On top of that, you usally have content like airship exploration and the 24-mans to fill that casual niche anyway on top of the inevitable nerfs to normal mode. Savage should still cater to the high-end, and like you agree, nerfing this would contradict the whole point of it.

From what I'm seeing, velhart wants the the two difficulties to initially appeal to the hardcores and the general raiders, while the casuals would eventually seep into the older content (which was formerly for the general raiders) and savage would stay as is. It's the model that they had used for coils (minus savage on FCoB, but SCoB was still there), and for the most part it worked (at least, better than the mess we have now). It might just be misinterpretation or different impressions, but I think he's taking your comment in the wrong context.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Everquest II got through this by making content and raids where the first bosses started off easier then got progressively harder as you get through the zone. This allowed people to gear up a bit on the easier parts of the zone and still see it all and get the story. It also meant that they only needed to design one zone instead of 10.

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That was a long time ago and most the MMO audience just don't want to do that now. back then you'd probably find that most of those players were what people would call hardcore back then, able to spend a significant amount of time in the game.

MMO player base in general is going to be alot older sure to past games like Everquest. Younger gamers are more likely to be attracted to thing like MOBAs and shooters.

The older players are likely to have less time to spend in an MMO with full time jobs, family etc. 8 man raids and casual content is likely going to be more suited to the majority of them.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Mostly on the commenting since I'm not too caught up on whose on what side of the argument. My stance on the matter is that they should have content that appeals to the general raiding population (going by your description) is utmost importance since they make up for a good chunk of the community. The casual crowd would still be able to attempt said content and might take a step up, but the alternative of waiting until it gets nerfed is also there (not to mention this is also retroactive by the time content comes out due to eso gear and the like). On top of that, you usally have content like airship exploration and the 24-mans to fill that casual niche anyway on top of the inevitable nerfs to normal mode. Savage should still cater to the high-end, and like you agree, nerfing this would contradict the whole point of it.From what I'm seeing, velhart wants the the two difficulties to initially appeal to the hardcores and the general raiders, while the casuals would eventually seep into the older content (which was formerly for the general raiders) and savage would stay as is. It's the model that they had used for coils (minus savage on FCoB, but SCoB was still there), and for the most part it worked (at least, better than the mess we have now). It might just be misinterpretation or different impressions, but I think he's taking your comment in the wrong context.

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yeah, I think we all agree on that. It would be perfect if we had normal alex = coil 'without echo' difficulty and savage alex as it stands now. I just don't think that is a move SE will make since they always favor the more casual player. That's why I am being pragmatic about this.

We can keep the current meta and see interest in raiding die off over time (excluding the elite raiders) or we can shift to something SE is more likely to do, which is have the easy and normal version. I rather have a robust midcore raiding community comprising roughly 10% of a server population than a petite elite community that comprises less than 1% of a server population.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

From what I'm seeing, velhart wants the the two difficulties to initially appeal to the hardcores and the general raiders, while the casuals would eventually seep into the older content (which was formerly for the general raiders) and savage would stay as is. It's the model that they had used for coils (minus savage on FCoB, but SCoB was still there), and for the most part it worked (at least, better than the mess we have now). It might just be misinterpretation or different impressions, but I think he's taking your comment in the wrong context.

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What I am getting from him is they should cater to the largest audience possible for content that is meant to be hard and in Savage mode's case, brutally difficult. The content is not meant for a large audience, but the said people having difficulties can wait till echo buff. It is the best balance in the content. It appeals to normal raiders and hardcore raiders. People might condemn me for comparing to WoW, but they used that structure for years successfully. I don't agree with the easy mode they put in either, but it doesn't truly affect the raiding experience in the long run. The reality of FFXIV is unless the raid team wants to step up their game, is to only have two difficulty settings. I would rather cater to people wanting more long term raid content than one real easy raid and one challenging raid.

Again, this content is not meant for the large audience, never meant to be, the numbers argument does not hold much water. It does however need to be properly balanced for normal and hardcore raiders, and the set up similar to SCoB is the way to go, just done better. That balance 3.0 raids are lacking is why people are quitting raiding.

The problem isnt even the difficulty. Even if it was massively easier and saw clear rates comparable to BCoB it would be remembered as the most lackluster raid to date. Expecting players to spend months in it, 90% of that time being spent progressing on _2_ encounters, one of which is the single worst designed fight I have long since seen in an MMO is laughable
Gordias has:
awful story
awful environments
awful enemy design (the only saving grace being living liquid but even then it's no nael or bahamut, not by a long shot)
awful metagame
awful mechanics
awful loot distribution
Good music
Personally I've just given up on this entirely. I'm sick of watching SE throw darts at a board, hoping to hit something. Call me back when they can make a raid that has more than 4 bosses, maybe then I'll actually care.

Probably been mentioned already, but the extreme vertical progression of this game is hurting Savage as well. It's bad enough that the story and fights aren't up to snuff with Coil, but what's really the point in making something that you'll smash your head against trying to beat when within a month or two it'll already be out-geared? I hesitate to mention old-FFXI here, but it's on the other side of the spectrum with how it used to be so deep in horizontal progression, where the grind and push to clear and repeatedly farm tough content was worth it because at least the gear remained BiS for years, not weeks.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

It does however need to be properly balanced for normal and hardcore raiders

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I'm pretty sure that's basically what Zosia is saying, too. Coil appealed to about 10% of the population, while the current Savage implementation is certainly reaching a smaller number (I don't want to throw out a number since we don't have data for the entire raid cycle yet). That's why the numbers aspect is important, because if the number players engaging with content is too small relative to the development time required for that content, it no longer becomes viable for the dev team to *create* that content.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

(I don't want to throw out a number since we don't have data for the entire raid cycle yet).

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Even if the number were to double by the end of the cycle we'd be looking at 4000 players with clears. In a game with supposedly 700k subscribers, less than 1% clear rate.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

What I am getting from him is they should cater to the largest audience possible for content that is meant to be hard and in Savage mode's case, brutally difficult. The content is not meant for a large audience, but the said people having difficulties can wait till echo buff. It is the best balance in the content. It appeals to normal raiders and hardcore raiders. People might condemn me for comparing to WoW, but they used that structure for yearssuccessfully. I don't agree with the easy mode they put in either, but it doesn't truly affect the raiding experience in the long run. The reality of FFXIV is unless the raid team wants to step up their game, is to only have two difficulty settings. I would rather cater to people wanting more long term raid content than one real easy raid and one challenging raid.

Again, this content is not meant for the large audience, never meant to be, the numbers argument does not hold much water. It does however need to be properly balanced for normal and hardcore raiders, and the set up similar to SCoB is the way to go, just done better. That balance 3.0 raids are lacking is why people are quitting raiding.

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WoW has the talent pool size to support heroic raiding. For many of the alex savage raid teams, your "git gud" argument means they have to replace weak links. This game does not have the same population as WoW and that creates a lack of talented hardcore raiders. Have you had to replace anyone on your raid team recently? It's an absolute nightmare.

Sure it does, it cheapened the entire raiding experience this tier.

Your long term goals =/= everyone's long term goals. It could have been a long term goal for a raid team to down FCoB before the echo came out. You are simply assuming that your long term goals are the best long term goals and that they are the only ones worth catering to.


It must hold something because that is the justification SE is using to change the current end game model.


The issue is much more complicated than "balance."

I see: So, thats what you are scheming square enix... nice and devilish ;)

They have done it for collecting data...
Now they have prove for designing new content...

I don't know I think currently the content is far to hard, It allows for 0 mistakes while keeping a 80-90% error free rotation for most classes.

My biggest problem with this is that it is only gear toward good people, and statics fall apart because of this. For 4 weeks we only had 7 people that 8th person was always a pug. It was rather heartbreaking and it made most people want to quit, when we constantly kept wiping @ 3-7%. Not to mention the paladin ( me ) was always the lowest dps, and the comment was made multiple times that I should roll a dark knight, because hey theres 200-300 more dps, then my 400-500.

Needless to say I am currently working on hitting 60 on all of my jobs, once that is done if I can't find a decent static I will more than likely unsub, no point in staying if I can not raid.

This 'edngame' in this patch just blows. It's either face roll alexander normal, or deal with NA/EU terrible attitudes in savage.

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Originally Posted by zosia

WoW has the talent pool size to support heroic raiding. For many of the alex savage raid teams, your "git gud" argument means they have to replace weak links. This game does not have the same population as WoW and that creates a lack of talented hardcore raiders. Have you had to replace anyone on your raid team recently? It's an absolute nightmare.

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This is pretty much the main problem. Add to that the fact that WoW has functional cross servers systems and it's easy to see why mythic raiding is infinitely more popular than savage. The bottom half of each datacenter have no raid scene to speak of. 2-3 groups isnt a scene. The top half has a couple servers where you have some chance of finding a competent group that can actually clear savage, but its gonna take months to actually get in.

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Originally Posted by Zenji

It's not the difficulty of it that's the problem. The problem is why would players be motivated to do it when the content was already completed in Alex normal. It doesn't make sense. For the weapon. For what? To be over powered in casual content for a couple months until the next raid? Not worth it. Not to mention animus weapons will probably be BIS anyway .

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Basically the reason why our static raided all of Coil, but we haven't bother with Savage Alex. Boring instance with everything spoiled thanks to Normal mode. Oh well.

What I got out of the interview is that they wanted to make an easy medium and hard difficulties but don't have the funds to do so. They currently made their (Normal "easy" mode) and (hard "savage" mode) raid with nothing in the middle, and they don't want to do normal / savage again. What I am guessing they will do is have their easy and medium levels of difficulty for 3.2 and not do a savage difficulity. They will have the easy mode which will be called normal lot like what we have now because the majority of their casual playerbase likes this mode, then they will have a hard mode which will more or less replace savage and it will just be Alex hard will actually be the but it will actually be more like FCOB difficulity which wasn't really that hard in the 2.0 raids.

They SE probably seen some people quitting cause they can't do savage A3/A4 (look at all the stories about their group falling a part or fc mass quitting because they can't beat this) and they want to keep those more casual middle of the road players over the top 0.1% happy.

They already said there will be nerfs to A3/A4 in 3.15 if the clear rate doesn't go up so I can't see them doing something as hard as A3/A4 again with 3.2, because they want to keep more subs to the game.

I quit within two weeks of entering A1S and haven't really played since but you know, I haven't really seen anyone mentioning this. Does nobody think that A1 and A2 feels like a T1 (best raid environment) and T4 rehash, except much more lame? It just feels so lazy to me. Even T6 and T10 had unique central mechanics that was pretty cool to me (get on the patch or get sucked in/let's form a man train to not die).

I was honestly really disappointed. I entered the normal version first before the savage version (duh) and was really hoping that rehash feeling I got in A1N was just for the never-raid players that somehow never bothered with coil and was hoping the A1S version was gonna be different like going from Garuda HM to Garuda EX but I felt like I was slapped in the face when I actually got to A1S.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Basically the reason why our static raided all of Coil, but we haven't bother with Savage Alex. Boring instance with everything spoiled thanks to Normal mode. Oh well.

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Yup. This has been the main reason a lot of our FC members that were on top of raiding coil have not even bothered with most of Alex Savage. Less to do with the difficulty and more to do with it is just poorly designed content that is simply not fun or rewarding.

Savage clear rates would be a little higher if it was easier to actually try it period.
Most people don't try at all, and its hard to get a group to even practice let alone win.

I've cleared a1s and i have to say i think that fight is really cool and fun, but A2s just doesn't seem that interesting. I'm still willing to try but i can't even find a group for it on my server (Gilgamesh).

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Originally Posted by ShiloEET

I've cleared a1s and i have to say i think that fight is really cool and fun, but A2s just doesn't seem that interesting. I'm still willing to try but i can't even find a group for it on my server (Gilgamesh).

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I agree, I would find the challenge fun, but getting a group to try isn't.

I've lost count of those who have quit over Alex Savage as time has gone by I see more and more ppl no longer playing or announcing they're unsubbing. Even groups who can clear I have been told by members of 2 groups, one who even had a4s on farm but broke up after clearing it that ppl no longer wanted to play. It wasn't fun, that sort of thing. I've heard quite a few saying they'd rather go back to the fun they had raiding coil back in the day than what is the current raid content. There's nothing to look forward to when you know in your current group the most you'll maybe see are the adds in a3s because ppl keep screwing up in that turn.
You never know when you try a new group if they are THE group and hope you're not wasting your time. The raiding pool isn't what it once was from the numbers I hear quitting.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

I've lost count of those who have quit over Alex Savage as time has gone by I see more and more ppl no longer playing or announcing they're unsubbing. Even groups who can clear I have been told by members of 2 groups, one who even had a4s on farm but broke up after clearing it that ppl no longer wanted to play. It wasn't fun, that sort of thing. I've heard quite a few saying they'd rather go back to the fun they had raiding coil back in the day than what is the current raid content. There's nothing to look forward to when you know in your current group the most you'll maybe see are the adds in a3s because ppl keep screwing up in that turn.

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Coil was really legendary as far as raid content goes. Hopefully the next set of Alex raids can match it.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

I, unfortunately was the only person wanting to try savage in my fc/static, and then I had a bit of a crisis irl, and was out for a month ony to come back to everyone aside from my best friend and my fiance having left my fc entirely, so now I'm pretty well stuck in a way that I havee no a1s exp so I can't go into most pf's for it, and have no friends that want to do it lol

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I can relate rl was to stressful for me during the release of the expansion not to mention my fc since reborn launch was dying/disbanding. The few friends I have in game all had a static for savage since coil or didn't want to even try it. so i haven't even seen savage nor the 2 current ex primal. the hardest part is either having an active fc and static that stays together. I don't think lower it will help more ppl clear. hell i still see normal bis fail in duty finder.

All I know is its always about more new content, I took a break from playing from September till now. Its almost seems as if I'm not item level 200, Duty Finder became like Final Fantasy XI where "Chirp" "Chirp" (crickets) is what I picture while waiting hours to begin anything that's before Heavensward. Any explanation to this, how the newest content is hyped only?

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Originally Posted by Mastanight

All I know is its always about more new content, I took a break from playing from September till now. Its almost seems as if I'm not item level 200, Duty Finder became like Final Fantasy XI where "Chirp" "Chirp" (crickets) is what I picture while waiting hours to begin anything that's before Heavensward. Any explanation to this, how the newest content is hyped only?

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not entirely sure what the problem your having is, almost anything will build you a party from people doing duty roulette fairly quickly.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

It is kinda hard justifying development if said content isn't even touched by the majority of the playerbase. A dungeon truly designed so that only the top 1% would attempt to clear it would probably be seen as a waste of time and effort. This game isn't designed for just the 1% to do. That's why the devs design fights around what percentages of players are willing to clear it by x amount of time. If people aren't even interested to play it, or are leaving because of it, what's the point of giving the playerbase more of what doesn't appeal to them?

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I am sure there is other content in this game that is not touched by the majority. So you are saying there should only be content in a game that the majority likes? Bah!

This game severely lacks in variety of relevant content. People stop playing when they are bored. And just because people aren't clearing as4 doesn't mean there aren't people above 2% of the population trying to clear savage Alex.