Paladin need to be review.

Clemency as a topic seems to pop up every now and then. Would it make Paladins happy if it was on a one minute cooldown, would heal instantly in Shield Oath and return TP in Sword Oath? Yes, exactly like Equilibrium.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

War's DPS is high, yes. But in exchange, a WAR takes a hell of a lot more damage and thus the healer can't do nearly as much DPS.

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I'm actually quite surprised that there is still people who really believe in that bullshit right there

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Originally Posted by Catwho

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You're probably thinking of stance dancing WARs. Healing WARs who do that and DPSing can be iffy at times if you happen to cleric right as a WAR goes into DPS stance for example, but a WAR in Defiance isn't much different for healing than a PLD in Shield Oath. A WAR in Deliverance is quite squishy, but most don't stay in the stance for longer than necessary to get their big hits out.

Defiance's health boost and healing received boost pretty much even them out with PLDs in Shield Oath, the mitigation is just more indirect.

WAR has always out dpsed PLD..especially AOE. It is also easier to tank AOE fights enmity wise as a WAR or DRK. Having had to heal WAR and DRK in 50 content though. There isn't much room to contribute much else than the heals as they are pretty mama intensive at times. It there is a PLD in any run though, I can contribute nearly non stop. As a pld..I see no reason to add any aoe dps. Even with the likes of savage 1 and 2, it has been and always will be the dps's job to dps. If you are not succeeding with a pld tank...look at the other members as content is designed with the design of low dps tank, low dps tank, low dps healers x2 and high dps dps classes x4.

Tldr..there is nothing wrong with pld...if you feel you need more dps to clear, look elsewhere. If you want more dps for less survivability..go WAR or DRK..

I even posted a video where WAR MT Faust with 1.3k DPS and a SCH at 700+ DPS.

Is not magic, a good war poping his CD in right time, and having insane good rotation, wont be a weak tank, not at all, WAR weak = total myth.

The sad true is, in general, people don't play WAR at his full potential, making them "FEEL WEAK" (and this include myself into that sentence) is why i play PLD in first place.

What they did for WAR is awesome, they are a TRUE tank, with massive power if you can handle the job and it should not be nerfed or changed at all. WAR is fine tuned rigth now.

In other hand, if PLD isnt issued for his lack of AoE, people might just turn the page on it, and seek for WAR and DRK onry. No matter what DEV do, i will play PLD, i just love it, but ya, hopefully they realize that is unbalanced when it come to multi target and make a fix.

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Originally Posted by Akasier

WAR has always out dpsed PLD..especially AOE.

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That was just relevant in dungeon where progress wasn't an issue.

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Originally Posted by Akasier

If you want more dps for less survivability..go WAR or DRK..

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That is not true, they don't have less survivability.

Holmgang 180 Sec
Sentinel 180 Sec

Bulkwark 180 sec (last 15 sec, shield still can fail)
Raw Intuition 90 sec (last 20 sec, 100% Parry)

i don't even see how WAR can be weaker if played at his full potential.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

I'm actually quite surprised that there is still people who really believe in that bullshit right there

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We take a bit more damage, yeah. But it's certainly not a hell of a lot more... Especially as often as Inner Beast is up.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

The part i am not happy:

Clemency [Powerful healing ability, but it is interupted 75% of the time, and at a COST of your GCD, killing your combo as well.]

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Your chance of being interrupted while casting Clemency is reduced the larger your health pool is in relation to the damage you're taking. I noticed you're using a lot of slaying gear and have a low amount of health because of it, which is going to cause your Clemency casts to be interrupted more often (if you're trying to cast it while taking hits - something I find myself having to do far too often while tanking whenever it seems like the healers are struggling with keeping the rest of the group healed up).

Anyway, less health and casts that are more susceptible to interruption is a tradeoff you're making for a little increased damage output (relative to your group).

Holmgang and sentinel is an apples to oranges arguement. Holmgang is the wars version of hg. Try again. WAR out dpsing a pld is in every content including progression. Try again. Still see no reason to add dps to flash.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Your chance of being interrupted while casting Clemency is reduced the larger your health pool is in relation to the damage you're taking. I noticed you're using a lot of slaying gear and have a low amount of health because of it, which is going to cause your Clemency casts to be interrupted more often (if you're trying to cast it while taking hits - something I find myself having to do far too often while tanking whenever it seems like the healers are struggling with keeping the rest of the group healed up).

Anyway, less health and casts that are more susceptible to interruption is a tradeoff you're making for a little increased damage output (relative to your group).

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Clemency heals for more when you have more STR too.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Clemency heals for more when you have more STR too.

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Yes, but it heals for 0 if you can't get a cast off when you absolutely need it.

"Hey guys, if that had landed when I intended, you would have received a larger than normal Clemency heal! But since it didn't, someone important died and now we're wiping. Yay?"

Not going to get into the STR vs VIT debate. I'm just explaining to the original poster that the smaller health pool isn't helping the Clemency cast interruption issues. The OP's issue wasn't with the amount it healed for.

Flash does deal damage. Try it in T4 or on Hellsclaw.

I mean it's not on THEM, but, it does.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

Holmgang 180 Sec
Sentinel 180 Sec

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Hard to take you serious when you compare Holmgang, an ability that only mitigates damage if your HP drops to 1, to Sentinel (and Sentinel is better anyway). A proper comparison would be Hallowed Ground and Holmgang, but I imagine you didn't want to make this comparison given that Hallowed Ground runs circles around Holmgang.

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Originally Posted by Clawbriar

Flash does deal damage. Try it in T4 or on Hellsclaw.

I mean it's not on THEM, but, it does.

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I continue to see Hellsclaw slaughter scores of level 60 people and that's why it's the best hunt mark.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

"Hey guys, if that had landed when I intended, you would have received a larger than normal Clemency heal! But since it didn't, someone important died and now we're wiping. Yay?"

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If a situation like that happens, I'm sorry to say that you're not wiping because of Clemency not going off but because of something else in the first place.

Clemency is kind of a poor skill in raids right now since it usually turns into overhealing and gives you 3 seconds of no DPS which is a shame since its a pretty, you know, flavorful skill, like, you know, Paladins and Knights in Final Fantasy have usually been capable of emergency healing, so its nice to actually have that now, too bad its sorts of impractical.

Clemency needs 1.5s cast and a 4s recast.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

If a situation like that happens, I'm sorry to say that you're not wiping because of Clemency not going off but because of something else in the first place.

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That comes down to how far back you want to assign blame. The failed Clemency that could have saved the healer? The healer not managing healing or avoiding avoidable damage better? The party finder for pairing us all up in the first place? Etc.

And that's why I specifically said "if you're trying to cast it while taking hits - something I find myself having to do far too often while tanking whenever it seems like the healers are struggling with keeping the rest of the group healed up)". Because you shouldn't have to be casting heals while tanking in the first place. But when you find yourself in a situation where you need to (generally because something is getting ugly), then it is what it is. Nobody is complaining about Clemency's interruptions while the caster is *not* taking damage, so..

As elsewhere with health vs damage, you're trading increased healing reliability for larger healing numbers. If we're going to suggest Clemency be immune to interruption or have a much quicker cast time, that just shifts all the favor for it in a STR build over a VIT build. The current setup is more balanced.

PLD is last in.

AoE hate
Single target hate
Snap hate
DPS While tanking
DPS While off tanking

TBH I am not worried about damage if people want to give up the mitigation / versatility for dmg then so be it.

On the other hand I think Clemency should be off gcd and the cast time either cut in half or not have one at all. Either way it sucks up your mp so fast its not funny you can only get 3-4 if you go back to back. I also understand that we are not healers. I typically keep an eye on my healers and OT because typically losing them will cost the fight.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

The healer not managing healing or avoiding avoidable damage better?

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This is the only right answer.

Flash doesn't deal damage because it doesn't cost you mitigation. Warrior can't gen wrath stacks while spamming over power while paladin block shows its strength blocking all those little autoattacks in large pulls. So basically wars do damage and pld mitigate.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

This is the only right answer.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_wis...ars_would_ride

^ Pretty much where things stand at the moment where you realize it's time to break out a casting of Clemency, making "the only right answer" useless without a time machine. You can either sit there and play the blame game or you can try to save the run. Which do you think is the better choice?

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Originally Posted by Einheri

Flash doesn't deal damage because it doesn't cost you mitigation. Warrior can't gen wrath stacks while spamming over power while paladin block shows its strength blocking all those little autoattacks in large pulls. So basically wars do damage and pld mitigate.

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it doesn't cost drk mitigation to put down salted earth or use any of its aoes unless you're a dummy and forget to use blood price and thus run out of mp which means you can't uh, use dark arts dark mind i guess?

Flash should just get the blind skill by default so it's a useful cross class to DRK/WAR.

PLD should get a shield spikes ability that reflects damage for better DPS (single target & AoE) while tanking (they're sorely lacking in both).

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Originally Posted by Gyson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_wis...ars_would_ride

^ Pretty much where things stand at the moment where you realize it's time to break out a casting of Clemency, making "the only right answer" useless without a time machine. You can either sit there and play the blame game or you can try to save the run. Which do you think is the better choice?

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I didn't say you don't have to try to save the run. It's just that if you failed to save the run, the wipe is still the fault of the original person who provoked it in the first place.

I don't even understand why people are so baffled by the idea that you could maybe make the flash blind inherent (gives it more use for WARs, maybe DRKs even) and make the trait, oh I dunno "adds 50 potency magic damage to flash". The sky wouldn't fall, you'd still do at best around half of the AoE DPS every other tank does, you couldn't even buff it with fight or flight because it'd be magic damage. And hell, why is Warrior the only tank with a TP management skill? Shield Swipe barely restores TP and is a DPS loss that can't be used as offtank, DRK -a magic tank- has to resort to spamming unmend to not run out of TP because their damage boost skill is an attack speed increase and thus an even faster TP burn. Warrior has free GCDs that cost nothing but stacks, for god's sake, they didn't need 200 extra TP every 60 seconds. Are the other tanks just designed to be completely useless without a ninja throwing their goad on them instead of, I dunno, a DPS?

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

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The tooltip says nothing about shield swipe restoring TP.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

The tooltip says nothing about shield swipe restoring TP.

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It costs 40 tp, so during that gcd you're spending less tp than your natural tp tick, hence, its a very minor tp restore when used.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

It costs 40 tp, so during that gcd you're spending less tp than your natural tp tick, hence, its a very minor tp restore when used.

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The restore is from Goad, not Shield Swipe. Senseless to claim Shield Swipe restores TP.

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Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r

difference in DPS is not 20%~50% less. but more about 200% to 400% DMG less.

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These percents are so wrong. Have they changed the K-12 curriculum to move percentages from the 3rd grade to college level?

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

The restore is from Goad, not Shield Swipe. Senseless to claim Shield Swipe restores TP.

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I don't think you understand what I'm talking about. I'm going to explain because I'm feeling nice.
In battle, with no outside source of TP, you restore 60 TP every roughly 3 seconds, which is based on an internal server timer, which is the same used to DoTs and HoTs. This means that if you were to only spend 60 TP every 3 seconds, you'd be spending an exactly equal amount to what which you naturally regen, ergo, you'd remain at a stable quantity of TP over time. Weaponskills commonly cost 60 TP, on a GCD of 2.5 seconds of less, and thus slowly drain your TP as your natural TP regen can't keep up with your expenses. Shield Swipe is a weaponskill, on the GCD, with a cost of only 40 TP. What this means is that any time you're using Shield Swipe you're spending 2.5 seconds using less TP than you naturally regenerate in a similar amount of time. Ergo Shield Swipe constitutes a minor TP restore, or, if you will, a way of saving TP. If you don't want to accept this explanation I have nothing else for you as it is common knowledge and in fact its currently considered Shield Swipe's only genuine use, as the skill is a DPS loss in comparison to the potency from the combos you get at level 54 and 60.

Saying it is a less expensive skill and thus doesn't drain more than you restore naturally is one thing, claiming it restores TP at all is a fallacy and deceitful.

maybe I'm in the minority but I'm happier with paladin than just about any other job right now in the game. I think what cross class skills it can get could be improved, but otherwise it's rock solid.

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Originally Posted by Peekachu33

PLD is the most finely tuned tank in the game, with the most utility and defensive options. HW gave the class offensive options, too. I'd rather they don't muck around with near perfection. What is troubling is this community's infatuation with DPS and parsers for non DPS roles. The game is like one step away from being a trainwreck like DCUO, which is the poster child for DPS obsession and how that can poison a game. People aren't clearing harder content because it's tuned for i190ish+. Period. The game will balance out as the gap between gear and balancing closes.

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They design raid encounters as a giant DPS check and you wonder why they're so fixated on parses.

Right now, if you're not geared, taking a paladin as a tank in Savage is kind of a DPS gimping, so your actual DPS and healers better be spectacular.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Saying it is a less expensive skill and thus doesn't drain more than you restore naturally is one thing, claiming it restores TP at all is a fallacy and deceitful.

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Every time you use Shield Swipe you're using 16 TP per second. You regen 20 TP per second. You're literally gaining 4 TP per use.

Hmm... Am I the only one who seems to have no problems casting Clemency without interrupts? Flash is fine too. Has decent enmity on it, and is still viable for holding aggro.

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but that's our job. To keep aggro. Dealing damage is more of an afterthought than a necessity, so we don't really need AoE damage as we already have the equivalent enmity through Flash.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Hmm... Am I the only one who seems to have no problems casting Clemency without interrupts? Flash is fine too. Has decent enmity on it, and is still viable for holding aggro.

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The bosses in some of the dungeons will interrupt it. Been doing some solo and I don't remember which ones but some of them did. I think the Tonberry dude at the end of Wanderers Palace did or maybe it was one of his little dudes. First boss in Snowcloak, forget about it. Hullbreaker was a smooth sail just finally beat that one solo, there are a few others.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

The bosses in some of the dungeons will interrupt it.

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Hmm, haven't experienced it so far on dungeons like Vault or Dusk Vigil though I won't say it's impossible since any spell can be interrupted. Timing your casts is part of the art, but I've been hit mid-cast and it still finished uninterrupted.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

They design raid encounters as a giant DPS check and you wonder why they're so fixated on parses.

Right now, if you're not geared, taking a paladin as a tank in Savage is kind of a DPS gimping, so your actual DPS and healers better be spectacular.

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I think that you and others are still completely missing the obvious: this content is like, what, 2.5 weeks old? Do you really think we've reached the gear threshold at which we should actually be complaining about DPS output when even i200 hasn't been achieved? Esoterics are the BASELINE for this content, which is supposed to last 3 months at least, before being opened up to the "general" gaming population via DF and echo. My God, when you have a full party of i200 people heading into savage and STILL having DPS issues, then we can talk. Otherwise, newsflash: doing content that you're under-geared for is hard. The average ilvl at the moment, amid the highest tier of A-persona raiders is probably still under 200, and that's presuming 3 weeks of esoterics farming and 1-2 drops from Savage. We should not be basing the median for clearing content on people who are exceptionally dedicated to the game.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Hmm, haven't experienced it so far on dungeons like Vault or Dusk Vigil though I won't say it's impossible since any spell can be interrupted. Timing your casts is part of the art, but I've been hit mid-cast and it still finished uninterrupted.

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It simply depends on the amount of lump damage you receive while casting. If you are hit for 10% of your health the chance of being interrupted is incredibly low. If a Tank buster smashes 70% of your hp bar the chance of being interrupted is extremely high (though still not 100%.)

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but that's our job. To keep aggro. Dealing damage is more of an afterthought than a necessity, so we don't really need AoE damage as we already have the equivalent enmity through Flash.

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The "keeping aggro" part of your argument only matters for the first 10 seconds of the fight; no one should come anywhere close to getting aggro after that. Hence not really an important point at all since its nothing more than your usual opening rotation. For the remaining 99% of the fight you are DPSing or mitigating Tank busters. I wouldn't say DPSing is an afterthought when it's all you are doing for the large majority of every fight.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but that's our job. To keep aggro. Dealing damage is more of an afterthought than a necessity, so we don't really need AoE damage as we already have the equivalent enmity through Flash.

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So riddle me this. WAR and DRK have flash as an AE enmity tool. Yet have AE damage abilities that leaves PLD in the dust. Not close behind, well behind. Why do PLD get substantially lower AE DPS of the three tanks?