I really don't think there is alot to argue here anymore. WAR has strong evidence showing it as the beat tank in both positions. Until SE does something I'll be sporting WAR because I won't bring anything to lower the chance of losing for 7 other people.
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08-02-2015, 10:08 PMkarateorangutang
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08-02-2015, 11:00 PMTilaWhat strong evidence? People have shown evidence that PLD is a better choice for OT in certain situations, that DRK is definatly better MT in certain situations, and that WAR is by no means the best choice for MT and OT all the time, but rather depending on the fight and raid composition.Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
Oh look, a savage raid with no warrior https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXACMfQpUqQ -
08-02-2015, 11:11 PMPhoeniciaI think the problem isn't that evidence is there or not. The problem is people get too darn selective reading/hearing once they get an idea in their head and just refuse to see anything saying otherwise. They want to believe WAR is overpowered because every raid tries to stupidly include one and most people (including the WARs themselves) are used to WAR being in the OT spot. PLDs aren't happy they have to share their MT spot and DRKs feel they are the black duck of the tanks. All these problems are imaginary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
PLD is a friggin' good OT. DRK is the best tank in magical environment, and though it sucks in physical heavy fights, the content is heavily favoring them because of t he magic damage. WARs are excellent MTs and can do a better job than DRK or PLD depending on the fight. WAR MT and DRK/PLD OT really maximizes raid DPS. PLD and DRK compositions are great and can clear content just as well as any of the WAR combos. Also notice that the only tanks that aren't complaining are the ones that don't get to MT at all (WAR). -
08-02-2015, 11:59 PMNaelle
This is getting ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illya
Stop. Just stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
None of these threads are concerned one bit about who is getting to be the main tank. I don't know any tanks that I play with that actually care about who main tanks. We choose our main tank per skill/encounter; The way it's supposed to be. The issue is that right now Warriors are above and beyond for pretty much every fight, leaving the other two jobs in their giant shadow. DPS is currently a major factor for tanks in end-game content. Having one tank be better at DPS is fine, but it can't be so far ahead that there is no choice to make. Warrior should be doing the highest damage; That's reflected in the way their stance changes work and I think that's rad. Numbers need to be more in line however, so that people don't have to take a Warrior if they don't want to.
While we're here in this thread, let's also address this whole physical tank/magical tank thing people seem to have gotten stuck on. I'm really not sure why people think that Dark Knight is so much better at tanking magical damage. One skill? Does Dark Mind alone really make them so much better at tanking magic tank busters? Let's take a look at the skills available shall we?
Warriors
In no particular order:
Inner Beast: 20% reduced damage. Solid, but also restores 100% of damage as HP and is a 300 potency attack. Cooldown? 5 stacks of Wrath (not long at all)
Raw Intuition: Guaranteed parry from the front. That's 20% reduced damage from all physical damage for 20 seconds. That's a long time.
Thrill of Battle: Increases max HP by 20% as well as healing for the amount. Very good self heal and extra padding for busters.
Equilibrium: Huge self heal and TP restore. Schwing. Only 60 second cooldown.
Vengeance: Reduce damage by 30% for 15 seconds. 120s recast. Also deals damage back, pretty cool.
Storm's Path: Half mention here, but reducing all damage dealt by the enemy by 10% is amazing.
Holmgang: Can't die for 6 seconds. Will leave you at 1hp if you don't get healed.
Dark Knight
Let's pay attention now
Shadowskin: 20% reduction for 20 seconds. 90 second recast. Exactly the same as Rampart
Reprisal: This one is a bit tricky. I like to use this with Dark Dance a few seconds before a big hit so I can have the proc ready. 10% less damage from all sources on target. Nice.
Dark Dance: Increases parry by 30%. 60 second recast. Parry is a 20% reduction in physical damage. Good, albeit a bit unreliable. Also can be used to gain Evasion through Dark Arts. Evasion is, of course, the best mitigation in the game as you take no damage. Even more unreliable though.
Dark Mind: 15% less damage from magical attacks for 10 whole seconds. Can be increased to 30% through DA. This is what makes them the magic tank over Paladin/Warrior? 60 second recast.
Shadow Wall: 30% reduced damage for 10 seconds on a 180 second timer. Same mitigation as Vengeance, same recast timer as Sentinel
Living Dead: Pretty cruddy if you ask me. Can't die button. Until it wears off anyway.
It's worth mentioning that Grit (tank stance) also reduces damage by 20%.
Paladin
Oh boy...
Sheltron: Blocks a single (usually auto attack) physical attack. 30 second recast. Restores a bit of MP which is nice.
Clemency: Nice heal that can be used on self or party member. 3 second cast and huge MP cost keep usage low. On global timer.
Rampart: 20% damage reduction for 20 seconds. 90 second recast. Same as Shadowskin
Sentinel: 40% reduction in damage for 10 seconds. 180 second recast
Bulwark: Increases block rate by 60% for 15 seconds. 180 second recast. Great for blocking physical damage. No effect on magic damage.
Hallowed Ground: Everyone's favorite can't die button. 10 second of immunity* on a 420 second timer. Longest recast of any tank skill.
Shield Oath, like Grit, also reduces all damage taken by 20%. Paladins are also the only Job that can use a shield for an additional source of physical mitigation. A little bit more reliable than Parry.
So, in the end, here's what we're left with:
Pure damage reduction:Warrior: 2 skills. 20% and 30%
Physical only reduction:
Paladin: 2 skills. 20% and 40%
Dark Knight: 2 skills. 20% and 30%Warrior: 1 skill. 100% parry* for 20 seconds. *From the front only
Magic only reduction:
Paladin: 2 skills. 60% shield block for 15 second and a single block every 30 seconds.
Dark Knight: 1 skill. 30% parry for 20 seconds.Warrior: 0 skills.
Can't Die Button
Paladin: 0 skills.
Dark Knight: 1 skill. 15%* reduction for 10 seconds. *Can be increased to 30% with DA.Warrior: 6 second duration. 180 second recast.
Paladin: 10 second duration. 420 second recast.
Dark Knight: 10 seconds after reaching 0 HP. 300 second recast.
After all of that, it really looks like all three tanks are very equally capable of mitigating and tanking any fight in the game equally. Dark Knight does have a single skill for magic damage but that hardly makes them the "Magic Tank". Defense and mitigation are not the issue here though, Offense is. As you can see, Paladin is not so far ahead of Warrior in terms of defense that it should be so far behind in offense. Each Job has the tool-kit required to survive fights in this game. Yes, they do it a bit differently, but they can all get the job done. That's the issue. Not all of the tanks can "get the job done" when it comes to DPS. I don't think anyone is asking for Warrior to get nerfed, or Dark Knight to get changed, or Paladin to get buffed. Those are words associated with being either too strong or too weak. What we're asking is that the offensive capability of the three tank Jobs to be brought in a bit tighter. The difference in offense should not be greater (or less than for that matter) than the difference in defense.
TL;DR
Nobody wants Warrior to be nerfed. Nobody is trying to take away your precious MT role that you covet so. If you want balance you need this:
Offense:Warrior: 3
Defense:
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 1Warrior: 1
Sadly, that's not what we have. We're closer to:
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 3
Offense:Warrior: 4
Defense:
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 1Warrior: 2
I hope people don't skim this and think this is a complaint about any one of the Jobs. I loved both Warrior and Paladin in 2.x and I've already leveled and love Dark Knight also. I just want them to be in balance with each other. Thanks for taking the time to read this and hopefully the poo-slinging will stop.
Dark Knight: 2
Paladin: 3 -
08-03-2015, 12:00 AMFreyyyWell... I guess that's why we're Dark Knights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
http://instantcsi.com/ -
08-03-2015, 12:02 AMkarateorangutang
Sigh, I'm not going to have this argument again.
I'll state it one more time. WAR brings more utility to a raid.
Clears are possible with any setup but war brings more to the table in a tanking spot in almost any situation if player skill is taken out of the equation. SE and SP affect so much and do so regardless of the mobs abilities. Ignoring this is just putting blinders on.
I am a tank. Not a paladin. Not a warrior. Not a dark knight. A tank and I will leverage all of them. -
08-03-2015, 12:06 AMPhoeniciaYay! A comrade-in-puns! Let's be friends, ~nya!Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
Not arguing here. I am agreeing with you for the most part. But Storm Eye is not unique to WAR. Storm Path, while great, is overexaggerated. Storm Path alone is not "best utility in the game". Storm Path is versatile, but so is everything a SCH has. WAR is great, no one is denying it. PLD brings awesome utility as well. DRK is... the black duck? lol. It still brings great DPS. (DRK is still in a far better place than AST).Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
It is great you chose to play all three tanks, which is what I would do if Esoteric gear was shared. It is a fact that it isn't. It also is a fact that some people do not enjoy playing certain tank classes. For those people that do not want to play a certain class, they should not fret, they can still perform just as well as any of the other tanks. Just leave space and share the MT/OT spots. -
08-03-2015, 12:08 AMTila
The problem is that no one is really suggesting any viable way to fix this supposed problem. Buff PLD damage and all it does it make them the be all end all tank for anything but magic. Nerf WAR damage and they become useless. Nerf Storms Path and you now have no reason to bring a warrior ever. At most DRK could use a little more MT viability for physical MTing, but not by much.
If you can't really think of any fixes for a supposed issue, then the issue must not be that big of one. Scholar and DRG are more must have for their position than WAR is for tanking. Didn't every raid need a BRD too in ARR? Mountains are being made of mole hills. -
08-03-2015, 12:36 AMwinsock
PLD threads these days:
WAR has more dps, buff PLD dmg
WHM heals are better, buff clemency
SCH has better mitigation, buff divine veil.
DPS have better limit breaks, make ours do dmg.
I'd say queue the tiny violin, but would worry it would start more PLD whine threads about how the other guy has a bigger violin....
PLD is in no danger of becoming obsolete. If you don't like the unqiue strengths and weaknesses of PLD, play a different class. Be warned though, the class that you pick will not be the best at everything either. -
08-03-2015, 12:39 AMTilaI've yet to see anyone prove that DRK is notably behind Warrior in MT dps. You cant go on saying WAR is far ahead of others and then not have any evidence but hear say. The burden of proof falls on those saying the others suffer at the hands of WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
EDIT: And before its brought up, dummy parses aren't valid proof. Especially for tanks. -
08-03-2015, 01:00 AMNaelleI don't think it's been long enough to prove without a doubt how far Warrior is over the other two (or not, if that's the case) but in every video/stream/group I've been in the Warrior is always above the other tank in DPS by a good amount. I've seen a few go over BRD/MCH even and that's just plain wrong. I don't want Warrior to get ruined, I just want the three tanks to be close enough that they're all still viable in all content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
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08-03-2015, 01:15 AMAllyrionI think mostly because they are worried any nerf will send them back to pre-2.1 Hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by NFaelivrin
I think WAR is really versatile and you don't lose much putting them in any role.
They bring a lot. DRK and PLD is less versatile and only excel conditionally.
So that doesn't seem balanced. You can point out the weaknesses of PLD, like low dps or weaker against magic.
Or DRK, like runs out of TP as an OT, not much utility and weaker against physical.
WAR is pretty offensive based, but I don't have the impression that good WARs are any more squishy against magic or physical.
So what do they sacrifice for their offensive niche?
If they had more weaknesses to point out, I don't think this discussion would've gone as far.
The most people say is that PLD/DRK can keep up in X situation.
Okay, but it's not equal overall, is it? You should feel disadvantaged(even though you're still viable) in certain fights . Are there any of that for WAR? -
08-03-2015, 01:16 AMAirswimmerYou know, it's not to make big long posts with lots of words and numbers, but it doesn't mean much of anything when you ignore practical usage and numbers that don't fit your narrative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
The reason DRK has been said to be preferred in fights with magic damage is because Dark Mind is on a 60 second cooldown. That means that Dark Mind, which can be buffed to mitigate 30% magical damage, can be up for every magical damage tank buster along with either a Shadowskin or Shadow Wall.
You seemed to ignore that idea. -
08-03-2015, 01:25 AMNaelleI would say you ignored that Inner Beast can do the exact same thing as well as heal you for quite a bit. It's still only one skill. That's not quite enough to pigeon whole them into "Magic Tank". That does put Paladin at a slight disadvantage in fights with all Magic damage, but that's called balance. Paladin is the clear winner in Physical fights, they shouldn't be the best in Magic also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airswimmer
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08-03-2015, 01:32 AMKaithFor PLDQuote:
Originally Posted by Tila
Sword Oath and Shield Oath taken off the global cooldown
Shield Swipe off global cooldown
Shield Swipe no longer gives pacification (because everything resists it), change it to something else that is useful
Something like one of the following as Shield Swipes additional effect
5% Slashing Resist + 5% INT down (but have it not stack with SE or Delirium so half of this is going to be eliminated by the other tank or completely negated by WAR/MNK)
10% damage buff to the PLD for 15 seconds
Gives PLD 100-200 TP on us
Or just make pacification actually land on mobs
For DRK give them a minor boost to their physical mitigation. -
08-03-2015, 01:33 AMTilalolQuote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
Also, the reason we have all these parses putting OT warrior high up is because very few people are willing to even try alternates (groups that are trying no WAR aren't exactly complaining either) Or if they do, they dont count combined tank DPS, rather just what the warrior is doing. Which is also a failing.
Or worse, they're being selective on which parses they show. Like Ravana which highly favors burst damage is wretched proof that WAR is doing to much DPS. -
08-03-2015, 01:38 AMTilaCongratulations, you just gave PLD incredibly bad TP problems and did precious little regarding their position as OT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith
As MT you really did nothing. DRK will still be wanted for magical fights, PLD will still be wanted for physical fights. At most you gave less reason to take a DRK when the group has a MNK. -
08-03-2015, 01:38 AMNaelleI understand that people generally only show off their amazing parses, but where are they from the other Jobs? I've said it before, I don't want anything to be nerfed. I just want things to be balanced enough to allow any combination of Jobs to succeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
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08-03-2015, 01:49 AMKaithI actually editted my post whilst you were replying to add more on Shield Swipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
I wouldn't say that's nothing. Being able to switch between stances without losing a GCD and without breaking combo is pretty large. Making Shield Swipe have a worthwhile additional effect (or it being off GCD) would make it usable again. Right now you're only going to use it in TP draining scenarios.
PLD's problem isn't really with OT'ing. -
08-03-2015, 01:53 AMMakedaHeh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abomination713
I was here at launch and for about 6 months, and then went away until just recently. I see you joined after I left.
So a little perspective might be handy:
I remember when you couldn't get respect on a warrior even in a level 10 guildhest...
When the only response to showing up with one was 'lolwut, dude, delete your toon and try again'.
Forumites would complain that you'd show up for a raid on your warrior, they'd say 'no thanks', and then they'd still be looking for a second PLD... with raid rosters preferring to not raid over taking a warrior.
We spent months with SE basically coming back to the playerbase with: L2P Noobs.
The warrior self heal was strong at launch, but I don't know if its stronger now. Most of the players could not get it to be strong enough... Warrior mitigation was almost the same at that of a Pugilist though. So if they weren't using that self heal like crazy - they'd be going down like a Chicago Mobster with a new pair of cement shoes...
At launch the paladin mitigation was seen an amazing. So much so that nobody cared about the warrior's better threat. Groups were willing to dial back DPS enough to let a PLD get a good lead - because that shield lover was unkillable. Who needs a self heal when you're taking zero damage and your healers have gone out for pizza from boredom.
This was all by intent. One tank was meant as the self heal, the other as the mitigation. They just overdid it.
MMO designers tend to have that problem. They overdo things one way, and fix them by overdoing it in the other, and then keep at it trying to find the middle... Like playing darts when you cannot see the board, only your score after each game is over.
Everything goes in cycles in MMOs... -
08-03-2015, 01:54 AMkarateorangutang
@phoenecia
I can't quote because of phone power. I'm not able to play all three currently but out of our static I am gonna cover war because others don't want to deal with it cause it is a "touchier" tank. In our case we lack a stable nin on our group so a war is more important to us. I fully agree that the other tanks bring something to the table. That's why we bring war/pld or war/drk.
I just feel like people are ignoring issue because they like a job. Why not enjoy your favorite job more? -
08-03-2015, 01:54 AMAirswimmerGreat; except, Inner Beast is only 20% mitigation, and the only other mitigation cooldown for magical damage WAR has is Vengeance which can only be up for every other tank buster, assuming the tank buster comes every 1 minute. A DRK will have both Dark Mind and either Shadowskin or Shadow Wall up for the same tank buster. That self-heal from Inner Beast is great when you're using Inner Beast after the healers have topped you off for the incoming tank buster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
Where did I argue this again?Quote:
"Magic Tank"
And who was arguing otherwise? All tanks are capable in each fight in each role while some tanks excel in certain encounters in certain roles. It's the same for every role in every encounter, and those preferences change based on gear level and other factors.Quote:
That does put Paladin at a slight disadvantage...
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08-03-2015, 01:55 AMNaelleI only really see a few issues, but here's how I'd fix them:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
Butcher's Block: Reduce potency to 260 from 280
Storm's Eye: Increase potency from 270 to 280
Why? A 10 potency swing in the negative will preserve all burst damage but slightly lower sustained DPS. Would the world end? This would also put their Enmity combo in the middle of their other two, same as Dark Knight.
Rage of Halone: Increase potency from 260 to 280
Provoke: Give it a trait to increase Enmity by roughly the amount of a Rage of Halone after the +1 Enmity effect.
Shield Swipe: Remove from the global cooldown and give it a 10 second cooldown.
Royal Authority: Lower potency from 340 to 330
Why? Currently Paladin has the worst single target Enmity and the worst snap Enmity. Increasing the potency by 10 on Rage of Halone would help increase it's Enmity generation as well as bring Paladin up slightly closer to the other tanks. Would they still have the lowest DPS? Yes. That's perfect. Provoke I think would be the easiest way to increase snap enmity without increasing DPS at all. Trait would be best, as to not give this to Warrior/Dark Knight, making the change pointless. Shield Swipe is just clunky to use. Having to stop your combo to use it in it's 3 second window (maybe more, feels short). This change would also increase single target enmity as MT only.
I personally like where Dark Knight is currently. -
08-03-2015, 01:57 AMAllyrionWhile not unique, Delirium exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
It used to be that MNKs were required for the INT debuff. It helped they were top tier dps anyway, but that wouldn't secure a spot as much.
Now DRK brings the INT debuff and MNKs are only top DPS on a dummy and the gap is negligible with other melee's burst and less ramp-up.
So if your team doesn't have a MNK, DRK is pretty anti-magic.
Still not as anti-physical as PLD, though, but enough to be considered within that niche just by kit design. -
08-03-2015, 01:58 AMCarstienEven there dark mind isn\\'t all its cracked up to be. 60 seconds is a great recast timer, but only if SE don\\'t throw a Twintania into the mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airswimmer
At release, death sentence was exactly how it was named. It spelled death for any tank that didn\\'t mitigate it. On a roughly 30 second timer. If they make Another and it is physical, dark knight will suffer. If it\\'s magical, Paladin will suffer most, dark knight will still have issues. Only war will have something they can use in either case.
I\\'m pro war, it being my main and all, but even I\\'m not gonna pretend that won\\'t be an issue. -
08-03-2015, 01:58 AMkarateorangutang
@Tila
Some interesting fixes have been suggested for pld. I'd be interested to take on a bigger support role. Buff cover for magic so it can help eat tank busters and boost healing potential. That would make it a good off tank and allow healers more dps time.
Lower slashing debuff to 5% and give it to all tanks and make it stackable.
There have been some great thoughts. Just not inn this thread lol. -
08-03-2015, 01:59 AMNaelleNot sure why you're getting so defensive, nothing I said was directed at you specifically. A 10% difference in mitigation is not broken, it's balanced in other places. What frustrates me is the community keeps referring to Dark Knight as the magic tank more and more. Yes, they're slightly better equipped to deal with big magic busters, but that doesn't mean they're the only ones that can survive. Also, if you want to quote me please use the whole quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Airswimmer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
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08-03-2015, 01:59 AMPhoeniciaQuote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
Ignoring the mechanics of how classes' CDs work on their own or with each other and their practicality is exactly the wrong way to do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allyrion
Check my post here where I provided actual numbers showing the mitigation difference in terms of effective HP and class mechanics. I'll quickly rehash here.
For EHP calculations, tanks are "assumed" to be in their Defensive stance, so I will not multiply base HP by 1.25. Feel free to inflate those numbers by doing that yourself though, it'll only widen the gaps.
DRK is EXACTLY on par with WAR in terms of DPS but they need WAR or NIN for the slashing debuff. DRK is largely ahead of the other tanks in magic because their single magic resistance CD is so short and so potent it can be coupled with every other CD for massive EHP returns (up to a massively high 255% of their base HP and roughly 50~70% more effective HP compared to any of the other tanks). DRK is behind in terms of physical resistance by about 70% base HP due to no reliable ways to handle it outside of its 2 basic and long CDs compared to the other tanks. Dodge does not work against bosses and 30% parry chance is far too low to even hope for it to count. Reprisal? It's nice if it happens.
PLD is slightly behind WAR in terms of DPS (~100 DPS difference) band they need WAR or NIN for the slashing debuff. PLD is definitely ahead of the other tanks in terms of utility. PLD can "force" blocks to a relatively, but not completely, reliable way to pull ahead of its peers in Physical resistance. PLD is fully capable of handling magic fights (up to 207% of its normal HP) but loses potential 20~30% EHP in magical environment and is roughly 40% behind DRK in terms of EHP.
WAR "couples" CDs (and they have great synergy) to achieve levels similar to PLD in both physical and magical environments (pulling 7% EHP ahead of PLD actually) but is behind in Effective healing by 4%~20% based on how heals received (spells vs abilities). WAR provides its own slashing debuff. WAR has nice utility in the form of Storm Path. WAR, like PLD, loses potential 20% EHP in terms of losing parry in a magical environment. WAR has the most practical self-heals.
So by your rating:
Offense:
WAR: 3
DRK: 3
PLD: 2
Defense:
PLD: 3
WAR: 3
DRK: 1 in physical, 4 in magical.
Utility:
PLD: 3
WAR: 2
DRK: 0 <---- THIS is an actual problem.
In terms of mitigation there is a sense of balance with DRK slightly out of place. In terms of DPS classes are perfectly fine imo. In terms of Utility, DRK needs serious attention. -
08-03-2015, 02:02 AMFreyyyIn fact, DRK's enmity combo is their lowest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
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08-03-2015, 02:02 AMNaelleThis is actually a pretty good point. In the absence of a Monk, bringing a Dark Knight to lower magic damage on the entire raid is solid. I still don't like the titles some folks are trying to pin on the different Jobs, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allyrion
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08-03-2015, 02:02 AMCidolfas86Lets also not forget that WAR attracts a more DPS mind set simply because of the identity being built around as a "dps tank". It gives license for people to try and actually hurt things versus becoming a turtle tank/VIT hero. I had a similar mindset when I was doing WAR and I've brought it over to DRK as well. Yeah I get beat as OT but not crushed, and MTing I can usually win vs WAR if I try hard enough/get goad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
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08-03-2015, 02:02 AMNaelleOnly if you DA Soul Eater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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08-03-2015, 02:06 AMKaith
Well Shield Swipe used to be worth using because it was a DPS gain to do so (plus good on TP management). Now that it's a DPS loss to use, it loses some of its appeal.
Part of the problem with Swipe and stances being on the global cooldown is that it ruins your skill flow. Right now you have enough time to cycle all 3 combos and it just keeps up the relevant debuffs. If you slot in a stance switch or swipe in there, then you have to let the debuffs drop for 2-3 seconds
Plus stances breaking combo limits where you can switch them. If you're mid combo and want to switch to Sword Oath, you end up cancelling Shield Oath > finishing combo > putting up Sword Oath. Going from Sword to Shield you basically have to pre-emptively put it up if you know you'll be mid-combo when you need to switch. -
08-03-2015, 02:08 AMNaelleI'm glad there can be actual discussion on the matter, and I'd very much so like to know what equations you're using for your effective HP numbers. Dark Knight utility is lacking behind the other two, that's a point I can agree on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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08-03-2015, 02:08 AMAirswimmerYou responded to my post while making arguments that were nowhere in my post. I wasn't getting "defensive" I was pointing out where you argument had gone moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
I'm not sure where anyone has made an argument that DRK is "broken", or why you have an issue with DRK being called a "magic tank" when they excel at mitigating magical damage over the other two tanks. I've never seen a single person argue that PLD or WAR can't deal with magical damage. -
08-03-2015, 02:10 AMNaelleI would rather not see Sword/Shield Oath changed to not be on the GCD. That mechanic of switching back and forth belongs to Warrior and makes them feel more unique. Maybe change them to not kill your combo position when you use them, the same way Flash works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaith
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08-03-2015, 02:13 AMNaelleCorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Airswimmer
Soul Eater Combo (No DA): 150 + 250 + 240 = 640
Soul Eater Combo (w/DA): 150 + 250 + 400 = 800 -
08-03-2015, 02:24 AMPhoeniciaFor WAR, you neglected that Maim is 190 and Skull is 200 potency. Moving 10 from Butcher to Storm makes both combos equal in damage and changes nothing except a loss of 45 potency in enmity. One of WAR's traits is that it generates the highest enmity. Keeping Butcher's Block as is makes using Storm Path a meaningful trade off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
Rage of Halone's problem isn't that it is 260 potency. The problem with RoH is that its multiplier is x5 while the other tanks' versions multipliers is x5.5. (Dark Arts Power Slash is x6.5). A better fix for PLD is to add an additional x0.5 enmity multiplier to their basic aggro combo (and remove the multiplier from Swipe or Circle of Scorn).
Snap enmity problem on PLD is that they have some delay on most of their aggro moves. PLD still has the great AOE "snap" with Flash > CoS > Flash. Flash has better enmity that non-Maim Overpower. Yes Steel Cyclone generates more enmity in 1 GCD but SC has an ugly delay on its animation.
Why would you lower the potency of your non-aggro DPS increase combo? That's just silly. People are complaining that they can't DPS well as PLD already. lol
Effective HP is easy to calculate: ToB is a direct increase of 20%. Damage reduction is basically multiplying current HP by the reciprocal of 100 - (reduced %). So for Rampart you have 100/(100-20) or a 25% increase in EHP. Vengeance is 100/(100-30) or 42.85% increase in EHP and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
Also buffs stack multiplicatively, so if you use ToB + IB you multiply your HP by 120% and again by 125% for a total of 150% (50% effective HP increase). -
08-03-2015, 03:36 AMTilaBut, the classes can and do succeed. The issue is that very few people are willing to try different combinations, and instead are insisting that only specific ones work, based on what other people who won't try different combinations are saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelle
The balance issues among the tanks are nothing compared to those of healers and DPS. Its little problems being blown way out of proportion when the simple fact of the matter is that there will always be a best in certain areas. Many fixes people propose would just lead to bigger issues. Perfect balance can not be achieved without homogenization.
DRK can MT and OT just fine
PLD can MT and OT just fine
WAR can MT and OT just fine
This is what matters. None of the tanks will be kept from a position due to their class by anyone else but ignorant people you wouldn't want to raid with anyway.
All that arguing does is spread further ignorance on the subject and lead to self made issues. If, say, a PLD is kept from OTing, it likely won't be because they are bad for the role (which they are not), it will be because some ass hat complained that PLD cant do anything right and someone else took that as a fact rather than a misinformed opinion.
Further boosting their support would just cause more bitching as PLD is in the same place as ARR BRD: people dont want to support, they want more damage. The majority of PLD bitching is centered around lack of damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by karateorangutang
Lower tank slashing debuff and you just made NIN a lot more needed, further upsetting the already shitty DPS balance.
If you just lower the slashing debuff even for NIN then you just nerfed NIN period. -
08-03-2015, 04:10 AMBlueskyy
Well look, another one of these butt hurt pld thread because warrior got a little more love. Fell cleave might look strong but it's a burst. Burst means it's not consistent DPS. means it's not as OP as anyone of u think it is, for god sake... DRK can pull almost 800 dps while tanking too. Hell i even seen some pld do 770 DPS on Alex savage. All jobs have their strength and weaknesses. Dont compare your weakness with another jobs strength. That's unfair comparison. By the way u talked about War, i dont think u even played the job long enough for your argument to be valid.
What is 500pot when PLD have a 540 pot dps skill? On a long run, Pld can out dmg a warrior. But when it comes to burst dmg, warrior wins.
edit.Also for a warrior, the highest pot combo skill is bb at 280 while PLD have a combo skill at 340 and a combo dot skill at 220(540 total)