Does warrior have the threat issues pld seems to have at 60?

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

No issues here with very competent DPS. I do find myself searching for single targets, like if a very good MNK or DRG are in my group I find their mob and Halone it once then continue my rotation.

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Pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

If you can't rotate through your 3 combos while main tanking a single target you're doing something wrong. I can do it in Sword Oath.

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And this.

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Originally Posted by Scyris

If your using sword oath to tank, you might as well reroll warrior, because your now bascally a warrior with noticably less hp and alot less threat gen. Oh and lower dps too.

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You're a clown.


As a side note, Fight or Flight powered flashes are enough to keep threat off pretty much any DPS. Just saying. lol

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Originally Posted by Edmond_Guilford

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You're a clown.


As a side note, Fight or Flight powered flashes are enough to keep threat off pretty much any DPS. Just saying. lol

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Calling someone a clown that's very valuable and constructive, thank you for your insight.
However I think you are wrong with that side note. Fight or Flight does not influence flash enmity, at least google says that, just for reference: http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Enmity tiny note next to potency of fight or flight says does not work on flash.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

This is very true indeed.

One thing I noticed a while back and it's getting even worse is that a tank gets commendations based on his max HP.
If my Max HP is very big, guaranteed 2 commendations on a light party. Even if I mess up.

If wearing STR accessories, meaning the run is going faster and i am in no risk of dying ever and if I don't mess up even once, you don't get any commendations 90% of the time. Cuz your Max HP was not big.

DPS and healers pls explain.

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Simple answer is you are too squishy to have a healer delegate extra dps. Sure slapping on str accessories works to hold hate but now you need a constant siphon of healing to keep you up.
You don't see It cos you believe your making a bigger difference with your "extra" dps. Freeing up the healers will make the run faster. Numbers don't lie :P

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Originally Posted by Tanthalus

Simple answer is you are too squishy to have a healer delegate extra dps. Sure slapping on str accessories works to hold hate but now you need a constant siphon of healing to keep you up.
You don't see It cos you believe your making a bigger difference with your "extra" dps. Freeing up the healers will make the run faster. Numbers don't lie :P

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1000% wrong. At what point does a healer look at incoming damage and not heal it? NEVER is the answer. and weather you have 19K or 14K HP, you will still need to be healed the same amount. The difference is extra HP serves only to make the healer lazy and start healing later than required.

Mind you I said EXTRA HP. not ALL HP.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

1000% wrong. At what point does a healer look at incoming damage and not heal it? NEVER is the answer. and weather you have 19L or 14K HP, you will still need to be healed the same amount. The difference is extra HP serves only to make the healer lazy and start healing later than required.

Mind you I said EXTRA HP. not ALL HP.

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Well that was a big ol pile of crap opinion. I like how you think large HP pool = lazy healers. Perhaps you should level a healer so you can see for yourself.
All that jumble aside you're still wrong. I can/do switch to clerics and maximize the group dps whenever it's viable to do so.
Yeah that's right...healers actually get a stance to do damage. Again lvl a healer there chief ;)

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Originally Posted by Tanthalus

Well that was a big ol pile of crap opinion. I like how you think large HP pool = lazy healers. Perhaps you should level a healer so you can see for yourself.
All that jumble aside you're still wrong. I can/do switch to clerics and maximize the group dps whenever it's viable to do so.
Yeah that's right...healers actually get a stance to do damage. Again lvl a healer there chief ;)

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His point is excess HP is excess. NOTHING currently requires a VIT build. I was MTing Ravana EX at i148 last night with a sloshed together hybrid set up.


And to stay on topic I was able to hold hate (i180 sword) at i148 against 7 other i179+ players but I was forced to spam halone which is a large DPS loss.

Excess HP is a buffer. Damage stacks (obviously) so unless your healer is on top of every hit you take, a buffer is nice to have, but HP is no replacement for mitigation.

Neither Warrior nor Paladin had an Enmity generation increase. At best, both got improved ability to sustain AoE enmity generation, but max Enmity per gcd has not increased while the Dps of all classes have increased.

This means that Paladin and Warrior are generating less Enmity relative to everyone at 60 as compared to 50.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

His point is excess HP is excess. NOTHING currently requires a VIT build. I was MTing Ravana EX at i148 last night with a sloshed together hybrid set up.


And to stay on topic I was able to hold hate (i180 sword) at i148 against 7 other i179+ players but I was forced to spam halone which is a large DPS loss.

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No one (read NO ONE) is counting on the pld to hold large number dps. The party is counting on you having a large HP pool to free up the healers\\' attention to dps/raid heal since you brought up ravana.
Nowhere was the topic derailed. And I can see why you don\\'t think vit is important yet. Because none of the true end game content is released yet. That doesn\\\\'t mean extra vit isn\\'t important, it just means you haven\\'t made the mental switch from 2.5 to 3.0 yet. Generally people care more about seeing big numbers then statting up properly for 4-8 man content which is a shame.

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Originally Posted by Tanthalus

No one (read NO ONE) is counting on the pld to hold large number dps. The party is counting on you having a large HP pool to free up the healers\\' attention to dps/raid heal since you brought up ravana.
Nowhere was the topic derailed. And I can see why you don\\'t think vit is important yet. Because none of the true end game content is released yet. That doesn\\\\'t mean extra vit isn\\'t important, it just means you haven\\'t made the mental switch from 2.5 to 3.0 yet. Generally people care more about seeing big numbers then statting up properly for 4-8 man content which is a shame.

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Tank DPS is very important always has been. Healer DPS is important as well. But part of the switch to 3.0 was the nerf to healer DPS and the buff to tank DPS.

Warrior is in a better position than PLD for maintaining threat actually. PLDs and DRKs have incentive NOT to go through their enmity combos where as WARs highest DPS output will be going through them. Royal Authority combo doesn't generate as much as Halone.

I've had no issue with holding hate off competent melee as a sword oath PLD or deliverance WAR. Just don't go to open up with a maim combo as WAR and you'll be fine.

As WAR the safest route is to pull with defiance on > over power > go through block > switch to deliverance > then go crazy. If you're comfortable you can do tomahawk pull > over power > heavy swing > stance switch to deliverance > fell cleave > go through butchers in deliverance then put up eye etc.

1/3

As a WAR for AOE pulls, stay in defiance until you group them all up and get your Overpower up, apply maim. Switch to deliverance as you'll have more effective mitigation in an AOE situation with bloodbath and decimate/overpower than you would in defiance. If your healer is really sketch or you're not comfortable in your ability to do this than immediately switch back to defiance and pop equil

As a PLD starting in sword oath is always the highest DPS route otherwise you lose a GCD during the switch. You CAN get away with going for goring blade first if you sheltron for the guaranteed shield proc and circle of scorn & spirits within. You may want to bulwark as well to get another shield proc in there too. After this follow it up with Rage of Halone then Royal authority etc. Goal here is too keep your Goring Blade and Halone effect while weaving in Royal Authority and you should have no issues with holding hate.

2/3

For anyone nagging about Sword Oath PLDs you need to get out of the silly mentality that tank DPS doesn't matter the amount of increase damage is next to negligible and paladin has a stupid amount of cooldowns to pop. The goal is the faster a boss dies, the faster the instance is. You want to spend the lowest time to get the most efficiency out of it. In addition to that killing something faster is the best mitigation ever. I generally end up out dpsing most PUG DPS as a PLD/WAR/DRK it's a bit silly. I cringe everytime I see a tank doing 180-250 dps thinking they're doing it right when they're killing themselves out of 500-700 dps on the fight.

On Ravana Ex in full defiance, full VIT, full VIT bonus points I pull at least 330-400 dps by the end and sometimes higher.

3/3 (This 1000 character limit is rather dumb)

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Originally Posted by Tanthalus

No one (read NO ONE) is counting on the pld to hold large number dps.

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Not trying to rock your boat here, but this statement is simply untrue. Almost all groups have, and will continue, to want more DPS in a party. Whether that is squeezing more dmg out of a dps rotation or having the tank and healer step up for dps.

Saying that tank DPS doesnt matter seems rather short sighted to me. Alas I will agree its not necessary to complete a fight.

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

For anyone nagging about Sword Oath PLDs you need to get out of the silly mentality that tank DPS doesn't matter the amount of increase damage is next to negligible and paladin has a stupid amount of cooldowns to pop. The goal is the faster a boss dies, the faster the instance is you want to spend the lowest time to get the most efficiency out of it. In addition to that killing something faster is the best mitigation ever. I generally end up out dpsing most PUG DPS as a PLD/WAR/DRK it's a bit silly. I cringe everytime I see a tank doing 180-250 dps thinking they're doing it right when they're killing themselves out of 500-700 dps on the fight.

On Ravana Ex in full defiance, full VIT, full VIT bonus points I pull at least 330-400 dps by the end and sometimes higher.

3/3 (This 1000 character limit is rather dumb)

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Write your full post before you post at all, then edit it in to get around the 1,000 character limit.

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

Calling someone a clown that's very valuable and constructive, thank you for your insight.
However I think you are wrong with that side note. Fight or Flight does not influence flash enmity, at least google says that, just for reference: http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Enmity tiny note next to potency of fight or flight says does not work on flash.

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I'll allow a Paladin better than I to educate you on the intricacies of Flight or Fight and Flash.

https://youtu.be/bCbt67TsqmY?t=23m8s

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Originally Posted by PerihVashai

You CAN get away with going for goring blade first if you sheltron for the guaranteed shield proc and circle of scorn & spirits within.

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Depends on who the dps are. A typical Dragoon opening rotation will rip hate right off you around the time of their first jump if you're in sword oath and not going straight for halone. Shield swap isn't halone.

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Originally Posted by Agrieus

Depends on who the dps are. A typical Dragoon opening rotation will rip hate right off you around the time of their first jump if you're in sword oath and not going straight for halone. Shield swap isn't halone.

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With a full STR on the right side on bosses, I haven't had any issues with FoF > Shield Lob > Circle of Scorn + Spirits within > Shield Swipe > Goring Blade combo. For point of reference I play with melee that hit over 1200 on dummies as well. (mage's have quelling so that's a moot point to compare imo) If you are having issues I would advise using bulwark to get another shield swipe in, but mileage may vary. A slightly lower DPS and much safer is to go for the early halone as unlike WAR you don't get as punished for it since you don't have to put maim up.

edit: I should probably mention that for bosses I'm 190 weapon and shield with full 180 on the left side and full 180 str on the right side with one 170 str ring. Also for instances I put on 35 STR bonus points and the DPS I referenced are of similar gear. If you're being out geared then always go for Halone first. Just as a note as well PLD has no incentive to put on STR gear for pulls so make sure you have a set to swap to full VIT for that.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Not trying to rock your boat here, but this statement is simply untrue. Almost all groups have, and will continue, to want more DPS in a party. Whether that is squeezing more dmg out of a dps rotation or having the tank and healer step up for dps.

Saying that tank DPS doesnt matter seems rather short sighted to me. Alas I will agree its not necessary to complete a fight.

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Not saying it's not important but.even with accuracy taken off healer gear (wait for melds) healer dps is still much more viable than tanking dps.
The big question that no one wants to look at is...what happens when your tank dies? Yeah that's a wipe usually. And no its not cos the healer didn't top him up. It's usually cos he can't mitigate while trying to dps.

Only if I'm pretending to be a dark knight and run roulette in zombie mode after grinding for way too long in a sitting. Lol

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Originally Posted by Tanthalus

Not saying it's not important but.even with accuracy taken off healer gear (wait for melds) healer dps is still much more viable than tanking dps.
The big question that no one wants to look at is...what happens when your tank dies? Yeah that's a wipe usually. And no its not cos the healer didn't top him up. It's usually cos he can't mitigate while trying to dps.

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Now you are just trolling.

Do healers actually deal more damage than tanks though? I've never seen the two compared. Most actual fights it's a given because healing is required all the time but how do they go in raw numbers?

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Do healers actually deal more damage than tanks though? I've never seen the two compared. Most actual fights it's a given because healing is required all the time but how do they go in raw numbers?

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Most of the "viable Healer damage" comes mostly from multitarget Holy abuse. 600* potency to all targets over 3 gcds with 3 casts of Holy while in Cleric Stance is a fair chunk of damage when there are more than 3 targets.

*Holy now has diminishing effect on each target beyond the first with each further target taking 10% less damage to a maximum of 50% less damage than the first for targets 6+.

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Originally Posted by Tanthalus

Not saying it's not important but.even with accuracy taken off healer gear (wait for melds) healer dps is still much more viable than tanking dps.

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Ok then, lets just say thats true. Even if you get to dps a little more and im stuck in shield oath our groups DPS is still gonna be lower than if im in sword oath and you have to throw a couple more heals at me. This is all very circumstantial as to the fight we are trying to apply these arguments too, but 90% of the time on a single target boss mob with small amounts of adds a group with a geared tank that is doing higher dps will outshine a group that has a tank sitting in vit gear the entire time.

It's not like your completely incapable of throwing some nukes out if im not in full vit gear. There are way too many tools for mitigation at a tanks disposal for that to be true.

If your having trouble then the tanks your a dealing with are undergeared or simply not using their cooldowns efficiently.