yeah thanks for changing you're story again and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaela
Anyway GG on tanking Titan HM
The broken FFXIV Holy trinity
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06-07-2015, 03:04 AMMercuito
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06-07-2015, 03:05 AMAllyrionThe old launch dungeons were not hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
But they were a step above what we have now and teams could wipe. It was also a matter that people were at minimum gear at launch.
The hard dungeons were really the Pharo Sirius and Copperbell Mines era though.
It feels a little silly to really talk about the trivial nature of content at the very eve of the expansion.
Everyone is overgeared, the tome cap was raised to 900 (hence people want to run fast to cap) and development for the expac and it's difficulty is done.
Wait a few weeks to see how the difficulty design of dungeons are, there's no point talking about old nerfed content being cleared with overgeared people. -
06-07-2015, 03:05 AMMercuitofirst he's says cos they couldn't keep hate. Now it's cos the tank is dead. lol This stuff is comedy goldQuote:
Originally Posted by Lusavari
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06-07-2015, 03:06 AMSigiriaBecause the skill speed is useful for spamming death blossom, and a lot of ninjas don't know this but doton cast with kassatsu make every damage of the dot critical so it does more damage than kassatsu+katon.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
For the dungeon mobs, honestly even if they were doing more damage they wouldn't be much more of a threat. Sure you wouldn't be able to pull several packs, but they would just become those annoying thing in your way between 2 boss on an easy dungeon you'll have to spam everyday for 3 month straight.
It's content aimed for casual so when people geared for end raid walk them, sure it become totally unchallenging whatsoever. Won't stop the adds to crush the dps that thought it was a good idea to pull them before your tank on t13. -
06-07-2015, 03:07 AMKaelalol what? How did I change any story? Again you are twisting anything anyone says to something negative. Time we end this thread. This guy isn't going to listen to anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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06-07-2015, 03:08 AMLusavari
No. You just can't follow a coherent argument. "So the if the tank dies we should wipe" is a response in theory to your saying DPS shouldn't tank. You're mad I tanked Titan on Dragoon. The tank couldn't keep hate. So you say that's broken I kept enmity against 2 ungeared tanks. Thus, logically, if you say that's broken, we can make the logical conclusion you think that no one OTHER than a tank should be able to keep hate or tank, and so if a tank dies, the party should wipe. Either way though dude... You're just flaming and not adding anything here.
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06-07-2015, 03:08 AMMercuitoPlease do what you want doQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaela
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06-07-2015, 03:09 AMCallinonThat's what it sounds like. I'm really proud of being able to pick up a mob or even a boss as a melee and tank it until the tank got back on his feet. I can't do it for very long, but I'm skilled enough to know how to survive long enough for the tank to get back up. That's called being a good player. If the game were designed to just obliterate a dps that a mob so much as sneezed at, that would be poor game design and I'm glad SE knows better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusavari
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06-07-2015, 03:10 AMApricoth
When new high level dungeons were released in the past, each round, there was no way in hell a tank could pull massive amounts of mobs at one time without dying (because there was no healing through it) and no way in hell, short of a blm, could DD kill those massive amounts of mobs very quickly. When people gear up to the teeth, then, only then, can massive pulls/kills be done. CD management, someone already has mentioned, is a big deal too but even with great CD, when dungeons are newly released, gathering/killing mobs enmasse is considerably risky.
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06-07-2015, 03:10 AMAzraelXI think the Devs didn't want healers to DPS- Yoshi mentioned this in an interview) BUT they found out in the FCoB raids Helaers were dpsing! they were shocked. so To even the dps capabilities between scholar Wht mage.. they game more DPS abilities to WHM Mag to meet how players were playing in end game content.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathlessTao
I don't see it broken. I tihnk mobs hit hard enough AT APPROPRIATE level! They will be options to play content at lowest ilevel so Op[ will get what he wants. -
06-07-2015, 03:10 AMWobiSo as someone who played FFXI I'm sure you are quite familiar that DPS could off-tank all the time and did so as the situation demanded, why would they add defensive cooldowns to DPS jobs if not to allow us to potentially stay in the fight until the tank could be raised and back up to fighting speed. Apparently the concept of skilled dynamic play is beyond your grasp, there is no need to stay to such a hard line of the "Holy Trinity" that people cannot help out in roles other than their primary one to salvage a fight gone wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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06-07-2015, 03:11 AMCaraway
Reading through this thread I don't think the OP understands the fundamental nature of this game: gross vertical progression.
Please note that people doing speed runs on the current 'hardest' dungeons (those in Expert Roulette) are doing them often in i110 or higher gear. These are dungeons that are tuned for i90 gear. They are completable in the game's original set of 'best' gear (first coil and capped tomestones). Think about that a moment.
You see people doing these huge pulls because the tanks have multiple thousands of HP more than the dungeon was tuned for, because healers have significantly higher output, as do the DPS. Try to do a big pull with content appropriate gear and then you can complain about broken trinities. -
06-07-2015, 03:14 AMCallinonThat's exactly right, and that is what SHOULD happen when you outgear something to that degree. Higher level gear should make you MORE POWERFUL and allow you to do things you wouldn't have been able to do in lesser gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caraway
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06-07-2015, 03:19 AMViridianaSeriously, it's called overgearing. Try doing that in a mix of AF1, Darklight, and maybe a piece of AF2, with Garuda weapon tops. Try doing anything you're talking about at the gear level the content is actually designed for, not the level that was available when it came out. Hint: it's not going to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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06-07-2015, 03:20 AMNatsunoYou mean the FFXI holy trinity, where people took dps classes and then used them as tanks, or took a dps class and used it for support/healing for the majority of the fight?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
The current status quo in FFXIV is fine because this is how the game works at this stage in its expansion cycle (I know cos i played WoW and understand the holy trinity very well).
Not the case as a summoner, and has already been pointed out, tanks still have to manage their CDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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06-07-2015, 03:21 AMRiceisNiceHe already replied that fights can be done/tuned so that even if you were to overgear it, it'd still hit hard. I mean at that point ,what else can you say? If it was tuned so that it can wreck people even if they overgeared it signifcantly (ilvl 120+ in ilvl 55 fights), then you wouldn't even be able to do it at the ilvl it was supposed to be for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridiana
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06-07-2015, 03:26 AMViridianaTrue. I mean, he also seems to think that 40 ilvl isn't a big difference (SVHM requires i70, caps to i110). So, I really don't know what to say at this point. He's just that bad, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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06-07-2015, 03:31 AMAllyrionWell, they could be stricter about the ilvl sync.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I mean, I don't care either way but that is the in-game way to stop/reduce overgearing making things trivial.
As it stands though, it's pretty lenient.
The other side is that people like seeing the effects of their new gear, and smashing up dungeons is one of the places you see that too.
I was in the crowd that didn't even think they'd add ilvl sync for that reason.
That said, I don't think it'd be unreasonable if they tightened a sync a little. -
06-07-2015, 03:34 AMCarawayI believe there was mention of a new feature that'd let you sync to the minimum coming with Heavensward so that could be pretty fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allyrion
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06-07-2015, 03:37 AMRiceisNiceYou don't want to go too overboard with item level sync if you're driving players to do old content for something like relic (or just old content in general). It just ends up being incredibly tedious. What I would wish they'd do is tune the "expert" dungeons a little bit higher. When they came up with our current expert (kotl, WPH and AKH), it was was tuned for ilvl90 at the point of game where we can get ilvl 120 from tomestones. There was already a discrepancy of 30 ilvls as soon as it was released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allyrion
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06-07-2015, 03:40 AMViridianaAgreed. The mention that the open world enemies will be more dangerous in HW makes me hopeful that the dungeons will be tuned for closer to available gear levels, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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06-07-2015, 03:41 AMkyuvenPeople were VERY angry when iLevel sync was added in the first place, wondering what the point of getting gear over i110 was because, since they only ran dungeons, they'd never see the benefits from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allyrion
In reality iLevel sync doesn't QUITE work that way, as only in PVP does it suppress materia melds. So an i130 guy going into an i110 sync dungeon is still going to be more powerful than someone wearing nothing but i110 gear, even if the difference is marginal.
That said yes, there's a disparity between getting the best gear available and doing old content. You SHOULD be able to completely curbstomp something that came out 4 major patches ago, even with iLevel sync.
This is why I was in support of the SoF nerf: It was extraordinarily difficult for people at the minimum required item level, and even people 40 iLevels higher than that could have difficulties.
I like a challenge, don't get me wrong, but if I really WANTED to be challenge by these fights, I'd go out and whip up some iLevel appropriate gear to do it, i wouldn't run in there 10 levels and 60 iLevels higher than what the content was designed for then complain it's too easy. -
06-07-2015, 03:45 AMSolaria_LunaWait a minute BLM can't cast cure. I lost my ability to use conjurer skills on BLM when I became BLM. Only skill that comes close enough is Physick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie
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06-07-2015, 03:50 AMAllyrionYea, I saw. It might be fun. Not sure if that's for dungeons though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caraway
He mentioned doing the first Coil in like ilvl 70. So the only example has been a raid so far, but it might be for all content.
Like I said, just a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
And the relic type argument might be valid, though I'd argue that if the relic wasn't such an RNG grind then it wouldn't be so bad.
At the very least, they could take it into account when considering how many runs such a quest would require.
So I think that's more of an issue for such quests to work around than the general dungeon designs.
I don't think too much sync is a good thing but all are synced to 110 at max, even the launch dungeons.
I agree, they haven't really allowed new released dungeons not keep up with gear.
Hopefully, they find a better balance with regards to tuning overall (for dungeons). -
06-07-2015, 03:50 AMAmnesia
Cure...Physick...whatever...
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06-07-2015, 03:51 AMYuji-Ikaido
I don't see how OP's solution will improve dungeons or make them more challenging or more fun. The only thing this would do is instead of grabbing an entire section of mobs, you would just have to fight one mob at a time. This would make dungeons much longer and more boring.
Old dungeons get easier so people can run through them faster in order to make way for new dungeons. -
06-07-2015, 04:00 AMOnikimaruThe people complaining about SoF made me physically ill. WHY ON EARTH should the final boss of the game be NERFED?. The guy is huuuuuuge, and the final boss of ARR for god sake...i had a 4 month break came back and cleared that crap before the nerf, it was already easy enough without the nerf...i literally skimmed a guide and was able to do every mechanic. Being stepped on by a GIANT dragon = 3k damage?. Mk.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyuven
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06-07-2015, 04:10 AMVerdanI know you're too busy laying down the hottest of hot takes, but did you notice what the item level was synced to? 110. That can be anywhere from 60 to 20 item levels over a dungeon or trial. That sort of vertical overhead will squish dungeon difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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06-07-2015, 04:10 AMKiara1They would solve this if they made dungeons require higher ilvl to begin with. Most players are overgeared when dungeons are new!Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdan
I remember doing keeper of the lake for the first time when it was released, our tank grabbed everything and the dps used aoe and I just healed.
I agree with OP that we need to make something different to make dungeons fun. Because, grab everything, spam aoe and repeat isn't fun. I'd rather they would make less trash mobs, and maybe do mini bosses like the ones in CT and replace them with some trash. -
06-07-2015, 05:22 AMRaijinSupreme
Then go play ffxi. What happens in ffxi doesn't have to happen in ffxiv. 2 different games regardless of them sharing the first two words in their names.
I just hate when people say that this game should be like that game and vice versa, when the easier and more plausible option for that person would be to play the game that you are using as the comparison. -
06-07-2015, 05:28 AMSkeith-Adeline
If the Tank pulls a shit ton, he BETTER be aware that I'm–as a Black Mage–going to be flaring every fitting chance. As such, he should be fully competent enough to hold enmity. EVEN further, he should know that Quelling Strikes isn't an instant cooldown. Either I tank adds, or I tank Boss, or I tank nothing and no issues arouse.
Also, what they are doing, adding these speedrunning walls, really doesn't help. It adds unnecessary wait times. -
06-07-2015, 05:30 AMBreathlessTaoOh, I'm not saying I haven't noticed what you describe at all, I'm just saying I don't consider them the signs of the holy trinity being broken. They're more like the signs of weak(/bad?) game/dungeon design, which is another matter altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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06-07-2015, 05:47 AMdank1
Spelling cause as cos is bugging me, that said in easy dungeons being able to pull the whole thing should be a thing, pulling aggro and getting reprecussions for it is a thing that does happen in harder dungeons say like coil for example
tl;dr stop doing ez mode dungeons and do stuff like coil where the trinity roles are more obvious and learn to spell cause -
06-07-2015, 05:47 AMShorreasAeatoseI disagree strongly. Just giving mobs progressively higher attack power is a very boring way of increasing the challenge of a fight. It makes things harder, yes, but so boring. I would much rather trash mobs actually had player-like skill builds and knew how to use them. Here's the typical gladiator trash enemy: *activate rampart before anyone is even attacking it* *walk up to the tank and use nothing but auto attacks for ten seconds* *swing fast blade once* *nothing but auto attacks for another 10 seconds* *random shield bash at a non-strategic moment* <--- this describes all trash in the game. Boring...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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06-07-2015, 05:50 AMHyrist
OP is making judgement based on being over-geared for content, referencing a thirteen year old game that's slated for death as an ideal? Bad ideas all around.
In the end, the Holy Trinity isn't dieing, not even close. Difficult content still requires heavy co-oridination and clear defined roles. These roles, however, have multiple tasks to the them, one of which is to assist with the overall damage. That's fine, the more the players are multitasking functions the less boring those roles actually become.
At this point, all current feedback should hold their tongue for the next few weeks. We're in wait-and-see mode at this point. Concerns may already be answered with Heavensward, and you may just be beating a dead horse. There is already been notice to player that there is a global ramp-up of difficulty in the open world, and if that's the case dungeons have likely been served a similar treatment.
But keep this in mind: It's already punishing for new players to access Heavensward and we will lose people over that fact. The more punishing you make this game, the fewer people are going to play it. (Studies and practical trials have already shown that difficulty balancing toward the hardcore isn't successful, you need only look as far as Wildstar for a CURRENT dynamic reference for how that is not successful. It's bad business to be referencing a model a decade or more old and assume it is still valid.) If this game fails to cater to its casual base, the whole of the game, and its players will suffer for it, please keep this in mind.)
What we do not need in this game is more 'difficulty'. What we need ins more depth. Fights that have more than a single set solution to them that are not as heavily scripted as we've seen with Coils. Job classes with interactive depth to them that amount to more than just "Follow Rotation, use off-rotation skills on cool-down to maximize DPS/Heals/Hate/Damage Reduction."
We also need a wider variety of endgame than just having the best pieces of gear come from a singular source. Not everyone wants Raiding to be their focus for top-end progression.
We don't need the game to be 'harder'. We've already pretty much have gone the gambit of how far a scripted fight can go and remain fair to console players in that regard. What we need is a game that's more intuitive, that rewards experimentation and finding differing tactics for differing compositions. And to do that, the 'difficulty' as currently defined likely has to be lightened up. The game of 'mortal-jump-rope' can only carry us so far. -
06-07-2015, 05:52 AMCallinonI just read it as "cosine" and assume he has some kind of geometric tourettes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dank1
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06-07-2015, 06:31 AMvp_cmc
We had Pharos Sirius, where 3 mobs were keeping healer busy healing with next to no room for dps. Guess what happened next?
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06-07-2015, 06:37 AMAshkendorI'm not sure if you're posting this because you're a DPS that's taken hate off too many newbie tanks or if you're a newbie tank that's losing hate to too many DPS. Maybe both? Honestly, if the tank has lower gear and I take hate (of course I try not to, but it happens sometimes), yeah I'm gonna keep hammering away. I'll use all of my defensive skills and abilities to keep myself alive and pray that the healer isn't asleep at the wheel, but I'm not gonna quit hitting the mob. The reason is simple - when it's dead then it stops hitting me. Even if I were to just stop and let the tank get hate back, as soon as I even glance in the mob's direction again I'm gonna end up tanking it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
It seems to me that since you don't have either tank class at 50, you're the misguided one here. Holding enough hate on all of the mobs so that the healer can heal you while you're moving to the end of a huge pull actually takes some practice to get right. Sure you can just run by and facepull them all, but that results in shorter pulls that sometimes end disastrously because either you're half dead by the time you stop or half of the mobs are engaging in some fine dining with a generous helping of your healer's face. The fact that you say "maybe poping cooldowns" tells me that you haven't done a mass pull. Ever. Cooldowns are as vital to their success as a good healer is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
Do you think that tanking 3 mobs at a time takes more skill? Shield lob > Flash > Flash > Flash > tab out to watch cat videos on Youtube while I autoattack one of the mobs. Yup. Lots of skill. Honestly, the only reason we're able to do huge pulls is that right now we overgear the content by such a ridiculous amount even when it's first released. You probably won't see it at all in the Heavensward dungeons at first simply because we'll be at level for it.
Increasing damage and/or HP pool is the least creative solution to any "problem" with a game.Quote:
2. I don't understand why you think simply increasing damage is not good enough. It's so simple and it solves the problem for all mobs and all classes in one go. Adding boss mechanics is such a complex way of solving the problem which might not work and will take a lot of work. My solution can be done in 1 afternoon.
It's a cheap band-aid to "fix" something that isn't even broken in the first place.
Titan Hard Mode stopped being a "huge boss" a really long time ago for most players. It's not 2.1 anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
Hell, last week I tanked the last 3% of Titan Extreme on my monk. An i129 DPS being able to hold out for a very short time against a boss that was tuned for players in i70 gear doesn't mean the game is broken - it simply means that I severely outgeared the content. Had he gotten more than one Mountain Buster on me in that time I probably would've been utter toast, but with an alert healer and judicious use of defensive cooldowns we were able to pull a victory out. -
06-07-2015, 06:54 AMFelisYou asked the defs to make enemies more stronger against you, but you don't want to be weaker at the end?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercuito
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06-07-2015, 06:54 AMGilraen
I love this thread originator's idea the XI had clearly defined roles... thinking noone else here ever played XI. In XI the go-to tank was not a tank. XI's Ninja was considered by players to be one of the best tanks... even though it didn't have a single tanking skill in it's arsenal. In a party that had Ninja tanking you NEEDED an off-tank, even if a good... no, BRILLIANT Ninja could keep their mitigation spells up indefinitely. This is because Ninja were literally Thieves with spells. So squishy that if a mob sneezed too hard in a Ninja's general direction they died. Utsusemi was a mitigation spell, but it was never meant as a tanking spell. It was an MP-free Blink, and NOONE wanted a Blink tank for the obvious reason, "When it drops, you die." That and alot of the harder monsters had attacks capable of ignoring shadows.
But that's so very beside the point. Taking the originator's argument to it's logical end Square buffs the dungeons so the over-geared can't face-roll the dungeons anymore. Where does that leave the NOT overgeared? Suddenly the dungeons, which are now challenging to old players, are schooling the crap out of the newer players. Scut minions are now all mini-bosses, bosses are now raid calibre. Clearing the dungeon in 90 minutes starts to look a little too short if a pack of three minions takes as long as 10 minutes. As has been said repeatedly, the dungeons are being cleared as fast and as hard as they are now because few are left still geared at the level of the dungeons. Further, some of them have even been nerfed to make them even more accessible (Pharos Sirius used to be a Healer's crucible, you clear it as Healer then none could ever doubt your ability). Increasing the strength of the dungeons isn't going to change things for the better, it's only going to make life harder for those that come after.