It's very depressing how...

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

The reward has so much effort such trivial gain, with no meaningful change in how the class plays...At what item level will there be a truly meaningful power boost...enough to even override team jump rope mechanics in Coil and other endgame fights?

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The entire point is that what you consider fun and worth it isn't the same as someone else. It doesn't matter how trivial you think it is. For some people the capped level gear is reason enough. And if you think higher level gear doesn't make fights easier then you're living in a dreamworld. It always helps make healing less intense due to more HP and higher potency heals, tanks have more HP to take big hits, and dps beat damage checks easier. The 130 gear most certainly is very useful for the "team jump rope" fights in the coil. The difference between a team at 120 and 130 is palpable. Will it override the need to do mechanics? No, that would be silly and make the fights pointless. Does it make them easier? Yes. It absolutely does.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Have people playing this game ever considered playing content that they find fun regardless of the rewards behind it? (I have a hard time believing people actually enjoy hunts sorry, might be wrong here though).

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I actually do enjoy hunts, but I don't rush out to do them everytime one pops. If I hear about an S rank, or I happen across one, I'll fight it, but I dont make an effort (atleast not right now) to actively search for them to upgrade gear. Perhaps when Im run out of other things I will consider it.

Can I just point out that it's very depressing how people phrase their topic titles to be clickbait? Just throwing that out there.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

The entire point is that what you consider fun and worth it isn't the same as someone else. It doesn't matter how trivial you think it is. For some people the capped level gear is reason enough. And if you think higher level gear doesn't make fights easier then you're living in a dreamworld. It always helps make healing less intense due to more HP and higher potency heals, tanks have more HP to take big hits, and dps beat damage checks easier. The 130 gear most certainly is very useful for the "team jump rope" fights in the coil. The difference between a team at 120 and 130 is palpable. Will it override the need to do mechanics? No, that would be silly and might the fights pointless. Does it make them easier? Yes. It absolutely does.

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Okay then, tell me this: how much stronger will Sacred Soil's damage mitigation be with average item level 130+ and all the MND we can get? Answer carefully.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Okay then, tell me this: how much stronger will Sacred Soil's damage mitigation be with average item level 130+ and all the MND we can get? Answer carefully.

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You are only going to be happy when it gives people invulnerability. So it doesn't matter. But a tick more may mean the difference of surviving the megaflare right at heavensfall when a player has weakness is a big difference maker.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Okay then, tell me this: how much stronger will Sacred Soil's damage mitigation be with average item level 130+ and all the MND we can get? Answer carefully.

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Okay then. How much should a SINGLE ability of the scholar be used to determine how useful gear is for every other class and most abilities in the game? Answer carefully. Pointing out this one scholar skill changes nothing about what I said. It's one specific ability that won't be affected. How about the scholars other spells? Physic certainly gets stronger. So by the merit alone your point is pointless.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

You are only going to be happy when it gives people invulnerability. So it doesn't matter. But a tick more may mean the difference of surviving the megaflare right at heavensfall when a player has weakness is a big difference maker.

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Nyaruko really nailed it here. Sacred Soil won't change but it's that little bit from other skills and improved HP pools that make the difference.
Nyaruko, have we entered the twilight zone? I've seen us on the same page in a couple of threads lately. Mind blown right?

How much more effective is rampart on a pld with 8000 hp vs 10000 hp?

8000 hp pld with 20% rampart= 10000 effective hp.
10000 hp pld with 20% rampart= 12500 effective hp. Seems 2000 hp in ilvls created an increase of 500 effective hp under rampart.

Repeat calculation for entire party ilvl hp difference with sacred soil. You won't be dying to nerve gas. You might live through that t10 charge and lightning floor tic wheb arena is small. You can survive that 14th stack of rebirth during Benny phase.

Maybe think more carefully. Or at all.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Okay then. How much should a SINGLE ability of the scholar be used to determine how useful gear is for every other class and most abilities in the game? Answer carefully. Pointing out this one scholar skill changes nothing about what I said. It's one specific ability that won't be affected. How about the scholars other spells? Physic certainly gets stronger. So by the merit alone your point is pointless.

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Enough to make sure there's no chance of getting derailed because someone else keeps tripping on the team jump rope mechanics. What good is doing end game content if people just rage quit and flail around, and I can't do anything about it, no matter how much I try to learn fight mechanics? It's all luck based; I only cleared Twintania because I had the fortune of a group offering to carry people for Soldiery bonuses. Every other attempt failed in ways that I was powerless to prevent.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

...It's all luck based; I only cleared Twintania because I had the fortune of a group offering to carry people for Soldiery bonuses. Every other attempt failed in ways that I was powerless to prevent.

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It is so not lucky based. The coil fights are tightly scripted with limited RNG windows for the boss mechanics. You don't clear them without putting in the time an effort to recruit, organize, and coordinate, and practice. You got lucky because someone else put in all that effort outside of T5 and just need someone to provide soldiery bonus. This challenge only get harder with more current content, and probably harder than the boss itself, especially with the attitude of people not wanting newer players, being all exclusive and all.

The thing is if you give up on other too quickly like in less than 50 wipes, you should expect treatment of the same which make this problem even harder. It take time to find, create, maintain a static that can tackle some of the newest/hardest content. Sometimes you discover DPS or gear checks that the group is not geared up for and you need to go help the group farm for upgrades. You need to take the long view, and by helping others you help yourself. Wipes and fail are normal, you may be powerless to prevent those because people need the time to learn and space to practice, but you have the power to patient and inclusive and help them overcome those and over time you will have helped group earn the clear, for both you and them together. Bringing people together and playing together is good thing.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I run complex endgame raids with complete strangers and no matter my personal gear in an 8 man raid I still loose. Therefore gear has no purpose and raids are luck based.

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Does that about sum it up?

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Originally Posted by Gallus

most people playing this game act like soulless thralls lol. SE puts oils and sands back into rewards for hunting...literally 90% of the server starts teleporting from one place to another doing trash content to quickly attain their i130. And then people complain about SE putting hunts back...I just cannot...

Have people playing this game ever considered playing content that they find fun regardless of the rewards behind it? (I have a hard time believing people actually enjoy hunts sorry, might be wrong here though).

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Sorry, but not being able to keep up gearwise means DPS in groups that are in final coil gear or with upgraded relics pull mobs off me without trying (ran into one such BLM when I did keeper of the lake).

On that note, I see the devs haven't learned from what happened the first time. Instead of doing the right thing (put upgrade mats up for Soldiery tomes) they went back to putting stuff in hunts. Which kill dungeons and funnel people to specific zones. I sure love seeing history repeat itself. /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Enough to make sure there's no chance of getting derailed because someone else keeps tripping on the team jump rope mechanics. What good is doing end game content if people just rage quit and flail around, and I can't do anything about it, no matter how much I try to learn fight mechanics? It's all luck based; I only cleared Twintania because I had the fortune of a group offering to carry people for Soldiery bonuses. Every other attempt failed in ways that I was powerless to prevent.

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That's a straw man. A bad party doesn't change anything about how effective the gear is. In a group of good players the gear difference is obvious. The math of the game that determines damage, healing, etc doesn't care about you're party makeup. Throwing a bad group at it is a horrible reason to ignore what a good group can do with it instead. A bad group is a different problem and a different discussion entirely. You're also seemingly assuming everyone has trouble winning so that what you said is relevant, but that isn't a universal problem.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

It is so not lucky based. The coil fights are tightly scripted with limited RNG windows for the boss mechanics. You don't clear them without putting in the time an effort to recruit, organize, and coordinate, and practice. You got lucky because someone else put in all that effort outside of T5 and just need someone to provide soldiery bonus. This challenge only get harder with more current content, and probably harder than the boss itself, especially with the attitude of people not wanting newer players, being all exclusive and all.

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So you don't think there's something seriously wrong with the implementation of vertical progression, if T5 can still shut players down even with the most recent gear? We have item levels more than twice our (stagnant) max level. None of this makes any sense.

My group can go in and beat t5 10 out of 10 times. By virtue of our gear and skill we can beat it every time. That's not luck at all. Raids success is based on the groups gear and skill. Duty finder randomly throws together players of different, wait for it, skill and gear. Duty finder is the random element in raiding, not the raid. YOU bring the rng to a raid with duty finder. That's your fault. If you grab bag random players you will have a random set of results. Consistent set of players, consistent (and slowly inproving) results.

And no it isn't a problem you can double the ilvl and die. Just because you ate a mushroom in Mario didn't mean you could fall off a cliff, but you could take litterally double the hits. If you can't jump properly no amount of stars and mushrooms will get you past Lv 1.1. Gear doesn't completely nullify EVERY mechanic and that's fine.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

So you don't think there's something seriously wrong with the implementation of vertical progression, if T5 can still shut players down even with the most recent gear?...

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There is nothing "seriously wrong" with T5 being able to shut down players who do not learn the mechanics geared or otherwise. Is it the fault of the golf course where at hole 1 the average guy with the newest most advanced set of clubs always whiffs at the tee? Now multiply that by 4 say the group is doing best ball for team play, like a company team building exercise, it is just a random group of new players. One shanks left into the drink, the other hooks right into the bunker, and the last guys sends ball backwards. Nope don't expect the group to make par. Gearing does not equal skill or knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

And no it isn't a problem you can double the ilvl and die. Just because you ate a mushroom in Mario didn't mean you could fall off a cliff, but you could take litterally double the hits. If you can't jump properly no amount of stars and mushrooms will get you past Lv 1.1. Gear doesn't completely nullify EVERY mechanic and that's fine.

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So then I ask again: why does Augmented Ironworks matter so much if cheap boss mechanics can instant kill you because someone couldn't memorize the dance? Why all this drama over hunts, when i130 gear won't save you from Twisters, Heavensfall, or Landslide, much less turn you Super Saiyan and dominate Nael in a duel? Too much effort....too little gain.

They should have raised the level cap with 2.4, at least then we'd have new abilities and traits....not this stagnancy.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

So then I ask again: why does Augmented Ironworks matter so much if cheap boss mechanics can instant kill you because someone couldn't memorize the dance? Why all this drama over hunts, when i130 gear won't save you from Twisters, Heavensfall, or Landslide, much less turn you Super Saiyan and dominate Nael in a duel? Too much effort....too little gain.

They should have raised the level cap with 2.4, at least then we'd have new abilities and traits....not this stagnancy.

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I was doing T12 yesterday with my static. We hit the 14th rebirth explosion. 3 people died, 3 barely lived, and the tanks lived of course. A few more ilvls and they would have all lived. We also probably wouldn't have hit the 14th because we would have higher dps with more ilvl. If we had enough I level we would get to that phase with 4 bennu instead of 5. We also wiped at 1% the same night with less than 6000 hp left on the monster. If my whole group had more ilvl we would have got our 1st T12 kill last night.

I send you back to my Mario example. "If mushrooms and stars don't save you from falling off a cliff, why the mad dash to obtain mushrooms and stars!? Huh!?".

Because it helps with EVERYTHING that isn't a cliff (1 shot mechanic). Where was the last thread about wiping to conflags? There were a lot before ilvl made that dps check a non issue. When was the last thread bitching about dps fail at titans heart? There used to be. Death sentence? Used to be. T4 in its entirety? Used to be. Failing enrage method in t2? Used to be. Feeding slime in t1? Used to be. Remember not killing suparna and chirida in Garuda hm before they wipe the raid? Ilvl fixed that too.

Just because you have infinite mushrooms doesn't mean mean you can ignore cliffs. You have ONE job in t5 that gear and echo don't fix. It used to be every. Single. Solitary. Mechanic. You used to need virus, storms path, adlo, inner beast, halone, topped off, and a secondary cooldown just to survive one death sentence. It was a team coordinated effort to survive just 1 tank killer. You don't deal with that now. Ilvl is massive. But you still have to find your damn jump button when you get to a cliff. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

So then I ask again: why does Augmented Ironworks matter so much if cheap boss mechanics can instant kill you because someone couldn't memorize the dance? Why all this drama over hunts, when i130 gear won't save you from Twisters, Heavensfall, or Landslide, much less turn you Super Saiyan and dominate Nael in a duel? Too much effort....too little gain.

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Taking Twintania as an example, while gear won't nullify Twisters there are a lot of other moves that it does help with. Death Sentence used to one shot tanks unless precise cool downs were used and shields were in place. Now that gear outstrips the fight, a mistake isn't going to lead to the death of the tank from this move. Conflags used to be a very tight DPS check which has been eased by virtue of higher gear. All fights have a level of healing check that must be met, a certain amount of damage is going to go out and the healers need to cover this while preserving their MP which once again is eased by gear.

Since you want to use Twisters as your example in this, higher gear can ease that as well. Let's say that 5 people are able to dodge twisters with any sort of consistency, at one point completing the fight with only 5 members was unheard of but as you get higher and higher gear it becomes very much doable with only 5 members alive. Furthermore, the higher DPS you have as a result of gear can shorten the Twister phase considerably thus giving not only your 5 members who are consistent better odds of completing the phase but also the 3 members who are may be inconsistent with the dodge mechanic. If they only have to dodge 3 instead of 6, you have a higher chance of progressing.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

most people playing this game act like soulless thralls lol. SE puts oils and sands back into rewards for hunting...literally 90% of the server starts teleporting from one place to another doing trash content to quickly attain their i130. And then people complain about SE putting hunts back...I just cannot...

Have people playing this game ever considered playing content that they find fun regardless of the rewards behind it? (I have a hard time believing people actually enjoy hunts sorry, might be wrong here though).

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The issue is how SE added these items into the game again. They should have learned the first time. To make it worse, you need even more points to get the upgrade items this time around. Don't blame the player when you should be blaming the game.

Also, if gear didn't go obsolete as fast as it does, I don't think people would care about hunts as much as they do. That's my 2 gil.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

So then I ask again: why does Augmented Ironworks matter so much if cheap boss mechanics can instant kill you because someone couldn't memorize the dance? Why all this drama over hunts, when i130 gear won't save you from Twisters, Heavensfall, or Landslide, much less turn you Super Saiyan and dominate Nael in a duel? Too much effort....too little gain.

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Me having solid Ironworks gear was what saved my Odin group from a wipe last night. The tank went down and I was second on the aggro table (due in no small part to my gear), so I was able to grab Odin and tank him long enough for the healers to get the tank back up and top him off so he could take Odin back. I ate a Sanngetall to the face and survived it because I had enough HP to be able to do so-- again, thanks to my gear. Had I not been able to grab him and tank him, he would've gone straight for the healers and we would've wiped then and there.

Also, if your party doesn't have good gear, you can forget about getting through Odin's DPS check. It doesn't matter that you're doing your rotation perfectly if you're not putting out enough damage to beat his enrage timer.

Alright, I see you've all made your point. I'm still annoyed they didn't raise the level cap by now to go with the huge spike of item level.

So instead.....I now want the open world Elite Marks to have more creative (and lethal) mechanics taken from endgame content (including Coil). This also goes for the upcoming Battle of Ishgard and FATEs.

I don't hate Hunt nor any of the Hunters. However, what I do hate is only by hunting, you can obtain Carbontwine besides hours of trying to beat FCOB. I am sure that if Carbontwine being made more available, Hunt will not be as bad as it is now.

Its fine. Its also much more time consuming then it was last time.
When my decision was not to even bother doing hunts because it takes too long, it means its pretty balanced.

:P Hate hunts, and only do them if I'm near. I love dungeons and run them as often as I can.

For me, I don't run coils, raids or anything, im a crafter. the only thing I use my battle class (WHM) for is spiritbonding. the difference between i110 gear, and i130 gear may be 2 holies, but that can literally be the difference between an accidental wipe, and a consistent sb run.

that said, I like hunts. they let me gear up, and also provide a constant flow of soldiery, and therefore crafting materials.

I see a fair amount of people bringing up FCoB as an incentive for Carbontwine in particular and I would just like to point out that for an 8man group you are limited to two twines a week while hunts provide as many as you can stomach to farm for + get lucky with RNG to get logs from. SE could've just left twine/coat out of hunts and just award both in the weekly Crystal Tower quest. I need a fair amount of twines but it will probably take a long time to get them despite clearing coil weekly because I just can't be bothered struggling trying to get full reward in a zerg fest that causes major server lag (especially on S ranks) not to mention that even after over a year SE/AMD still haven't fixed the borderless window mode memory bug that causes "An unexpected error has occured" or FPS to drop below 1 for 30sec randomly when a large amount of people load in.

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Originally Posted by Sadana

Folks think they "have to" do certain content to get geared cause "others will grief them if they don't". :/ This fear I just don't get. I tell people just to do what they want in game, but it's like they CAN'T. ><

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Actually, as a tank, it is simply painful to play with vastly outgeared DPS in the party when the DPS players just "do what they want". :(

It's not a fear, it's actual experience.

Hunts look like fun but is there like a guide on how to do it?

The "assumed mechanics of hunts"-thread here only explains how spawns work but what am I actually supposed to do to get into that grind?

I see hunt LS chasing cool looking NMs all over the map but apparently you already need a bill for that specific mob for the kill to count?
Can somebody please just break it down for us mere mortals/(idiots)?

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Originally Posted by Seif

Hunts look like fun but is there like a guide on how to do it?

The "assumed mechanics of hunts"-thread here only explains how spawns work but what am I actually supposed to do to get into that grind?

I see hunt LS chasing cool looking NMs all over the map but apparently you already need a bill for that specific mob for the kill to count?
Can somebody please just break it down for us mere mortals/(idiots)?

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The only hunts that need bills are the B ranks (weekly hunts with a white/blue symbol by their name)-- those are the smaller monsters you'll see around that respawn somewhere in the zone as soon as they're killed. A and S ranks (the larger monsters with the red and yellow symbols) can be killed by anyone for credit, even people who aren't yet lvl 50.

EDIT: Should also add, B ranks are designed to be soloed. A ranks need at least 4 people to take down, S ranks a lot more than that.

Ilvl is not important :p
<-- playing as BLM or SMN ilvl95 still have beat every dungeon we got. New Odin also! o_o

My gears/weapons: all lv110, but the Accessory are lv70-HQ, 5-slot-Materia ;D - Have those almost a year!
And they stay! Till we get lv140 gears,and they are easy to get like current ilv100 o_o

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Originally Posted by Millerna

The ability to say "I have better gear than you, therefor I am far superior" is more important than having fun apparently ;)

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Welcome to the post-WoW generation of MMO gamers :P

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Originally Posted by Gallus

most people playing this game act like soulless thralls lol. SE puts oils and sands back into rewards for hunting...literally 90% of the server starts teleporting from one place to another doing trash content to quickly attain their i130. And then people complain about SE putting hunts back...I just cannot...

Have people playing this game ever considered playing content that they find fun regardless of the rewards behind it? (I have a hard time believing people actually enjoy hunts sorry, might be wrong here though).

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My problem is I don't enjoy hunts and I can't get into Bahamut Final Coil (stuck on T9). I'd like to have more options and I'm kinda disappointed that CT weekly gives only carboncoats =(

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Originally Posted by Velox

Welcome to the post-WoW generation of MMO gamers :P

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How was FFXI any different?

I will never understand the logic behind hunts or any open world zerging content that give such rewards. Why not WoD instead? It's new content, with nice mechanics, weekly gated like FCoB. Players shouldn't be rewarded with i130 gear for just spamming medica II for hours.

I don't do coil (too much hassle after watching the kids all day), but I would've been fine with them leaving both carboncoats to the weekly and not having any twine or coats able to be bought with Allied Seals --- then we wouldn't have the mad rush that has turned what are normally pretty decent people into some kind of mad zombie rush. I mean -- for people like me who just like to relax and have fun running expert dungeons or helping out FC mates -- there is no real use to any i130 gear. I mean, if you don't do Coil you don't need it at all -- everything in the game can be done (barring some EX and, of course, Coil) in i110. What's the rush to get these i130 pieces if you don't need it to complete the content you do?

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Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327

That's kind of exactly how being superior works.

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Except that someone with better skill and lower ilvl gear is always going to be superior to someone with crap all skill and max ilvl gear. So no, having better gear doesn't make you superior.

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Originally Posted by Millerna

Except that someone with better skill and lower ilvl gear is always going to be superior to someone with crap all skill and max ilvl gear. So no, having better gear doesn't make you superior.

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Especially when it's not even BiS LOL. You'll see people rolling around with their left side 130 while not even realizing that some WoD drops are actually better. Buying your way to 130 spamming content that requires 0 skill does not make you better than anyone, and I'll laugh at whoever thinks it does.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Welcome to the post-WoW generation of MMO gamers :P

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As another poster said, how was that any case before WoW? The difference is people expected better gear to take longer to get or make you go through tough content (like any single player game... ie: the FF relics/legendaries). WoW introduced "welfare epics" which instilled this idea that everyone should have the best gear, regardless of what they do to get it. Well, I can't just blame that, it was also the huge dump of non-MMO players after WoW became "mainstream". Since then you've had the "casuals" complaining that the "elites" shouldn't have the best gear (regardless of what the "elites" had to do to get it) and the "elites" pissed off that the gear they worked for loses it's value because people didn't want to do the content they had to do. Having some "value" to gear is important because it's this value that acts as the carrot on a stick, and the driving force to keep playing an MMO (which TBH, are all grind games anyway). Without it, the grind is painfully obvious and the game get's boring.

In this post-WoW age, gear has no value and it all just meshes together. The feeling of achievement and the rush of getting that rare and hard to get item has been lost, replaced by boring token grinds and gear that's the same as the last cycle, just with new paint on it.

6 sustained mark log per carbon twine. 500 allies seals per mark log. 3,000 allies seals per carbon twine. 6 carbon twines for armor upgrade pieces. 18,000 allies seals total needed. Fuuu.. that grind. I'll get the carbon coat x1 per week and upgrade my accessories, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by kuikui

6 sustained mark log per carbon twine. 500 allies seals per mark log. 3,000 allies seals per carbon twine. 6 carbon twines for armor upgrade pieces. 18,000 allies seals total needed. Fuuu.. that grind. I'll get the carbon coat x1 per week and upgrade my accessories, but that's about it.

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If you don't FCoB, you can always look at the secondary stats on WoD armor so you can plan a head and not upgrade a piece that you don't need to. Just a tip ^^