Dragoon, under the shadow of Ninja

I don't see why DRG is more behind NIN than MNK is to be honest...

DRG deals about ~10% lower dps than MNK, like they have done since 2.1... And DRG balances it up with 10% more damage for the BRD in your group, and higher burst damage. That's perfect balance right there... The problem is Ninja compared to the 2, not just Dragoon.

MNK gives your group slightly higher sustained dps than DRG, and they have better Mantra and Dragon Kick debuff shouldn't be underestimated.

DRG gives your party almost as much sustained dps (with BRD) and makes up for the lower utility with higher burst damage. Should have higher M.Defense though...

NIN gives your party higher sustained dps than both DRG and MNK, because of one ability (Trick Attack), they have very good burst damage and Goad is a very good Utility.

I'm not gonna mention positional differences, because that's irrelevant... DPS isn't determined based on difficulty. DPS should be compared assuming they are played by good players that get everything out of their jobs... If one job does more/less dps because it's harder/easier to play, then all/none of the top players would play that job, cause they know they can get everything out of them. I can play DRG in my sleep and still get good numbers... and I'm no elite player by any means.

They could make Trick Attack give you a 10% damage buff, and a debuff to the enemy that makes everyone in the party do just 2% more damage or something... and it would pretty much balance things out, and it wouldn't decrease NIN's own dps, which I think nobody who plays them wants... Just an example btw.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

All these theorycrafting and u peeps forgot how lazy SE buff jobs (BLM buff wink2) , send word to SE HQ that all DRG buff can be very simple enough implemented by boosting heavy thrust dmg buff into 50%!

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Is it already the time we butcher balance ?

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Originally Posted by Empressia

All these theorycrafting and u peeps forgot how lazy SE buff jobs (BLM buff wink2) , send word to SE HQ that all DRG buff can be very simple enough implemented by boosting heavy thrust dmg buff into 50%!

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Honestly, why should they suddenly change DRG? except for potency changes I mean... Magic defense is the only thing I can see them change other than that (easy fix), and I don't think it's right for them to only fix DRG...

There needs to be small changes to balancing right now, but if they change other things about DRG too, to make them more "enjoyable", they would have to do that to every other job too IMO... and trust me, people have these opinions about every job there is. BLM obviously wanted some different changes, SMN player have wanted some change for a long time, not to mention BRD's... There is a ton of things they can do better with the jobs, and I suggest they wait with it and release those changes at the same time sometime in the future.

Drg needs to be buffed ASAP, the other classes still have very good uses to raid parties overall in comparison to drg. I don't really believe that they need a buff as quickly as drg does right now.

Not saying other classes don't need/could use changes, but drg needs them a bit more and shouldn't have to wait any longer than they have to.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...46#post2574746

dragoon buff comingsoon

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Drg needs to be buffed ASAP, the other classes still have very good uses to raid parties overall in comparison to drg. I don't really believe that they need a buff as quickly as drg does right now.

Not saying other classes don't need/could use changes, but drg needs them a bit more and shouldn't have to wait any longer than they have to.

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It's still the same difference between MNK and DRG as it has always been... MNK's do more sustained dps, while DRG makes up most of that from the increased damage for your BRD, and having more burst damage. NIN have changed things somewhat, because they bring better or the same things on everything, but seriously, people need to calm down... Just cause NIN looks to be a little OP right now, doesn't mean DRG sucks all of a sudden. You can still do all content without any problems...

Should I say it again? There is very little difference to the sustained dps a DRG brings to a group, compared to what a MNK gives your group... You can't dismiss the 10% increase in dps on the BRD, that's a lot of added dps DRG's give you. NIN of course have Trick Attack, which does almost exactly the same bonus dps, and has higher dps itself... But if you just increase DRG's dps, then suddenly MNK is going to give the least amount of dps for your group.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

I'm not gonna mention positional differences, because that's irrelevant... DPS isn't determined based on difficulty. DPS should be compared assuming they are played by good players that get everything out of their jobs... If one job does more/less dps because it's harder/easier to play, then all/none of the top players would play that job, cause they know they can get everything out of them.

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I agree that balancing around difficulty is a bad thing but positional requierements are more along the lines of cast bars for casters. Meaning they dont make the job more complicated to play but are hindersome when it comes to dealing with mechanics. Its like with BLM vs SMN basically. BLM has a very simple rotation but its cast bars are detrimental when it comes to movement, so it deserves higher base dmg in comparison to BRD or SMN.

Thats actually my main gripe when it comes to MNK/DRG vs NIN. Yes i do think that NIN is more complicated than both MNK and DRG but once you get to the point where you have your rotation down, a NIN will be able to deal much better with movement and mechanics because he has no such class mechanics like positionals or cast bars. So if the base dmg is similar (MNK) or even higher (DRG), NIN will be much better in most fights in practice. Its kinda like the bard of melees.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Should I say it again? There is very little difference to the sustained dps a DRG brings to a group, compared to what a MNK gives your group... You can't dismiss the 10% increase in dps on the BRD

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Except this is wrong. It's only a roughly 7% increase to Bard damage, as it has no effect on DoTs. 7% on the lowest output DPS of your group.

MNK DPS isn't only slightly higher, it's somewhere in the ballpark of 50 DPS higher (520 compared to 480) iirc.

The drg damage boost is more like 6-7% damage according to posters on the forum. It also doesn't affect the dots.

Also, at the moment mnk still adds more utility to a group. Drg is lacking in that area. Drg getting a damage boost to put it more on line with nin/mnk as well as utility would help greatly in providing desirability for hardcore raid groups to bring them along.

Ignoring the DPS entirely (which is not a small issue) DRG's other problem is that they are literally impossible to bring into i110 Final Coil progression and survive, due to their lower magic damage. Especially if you're giving up a MNK's DK to bring them.

If you were to rate DEF/MDEF on equipment from a scale of 1 to 4:
Tanks are 4/4
Mages are 1/3
DRG is 3/1
Everyone else is 2/2

DRG equipment needs to be buffed to 3/2 to be able to survive extreme amounts of AoE, or evened out to 2/2.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

snip

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aside the fact that nearly every big party hit in this game is magical which is a pain for DRGs, you do realize you're not supposed to beat T12/13 in i110 right ?

for T13, when the teams are finally able to meet the dps check, you'll see that DRGs are just as much viable as any other class. Not surviving an enrage doesn't make a job bad or anything. Or else every job should be upped to be able to survive Garuda's enrage or similar enrages (higher damage per add remaining) at programmed ilevel minus 10

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Also, at the moment mnk still adds more utility to a group. Drg is lacking in that area. Drg getting a damage boost to put it more on line with nin/mnk as well as utility would help greatly in providing desirability for hardcore raid groups to bring them along.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

First step would be normalizing their Magic Defense.

Next change Jump to have either a 20s or 15s cooldown. At 15s potency may need to be reduced slightly.

Remove the positional requirement from Heavy Thrust and increase the bonus to 20%.

Finally while I think Impulse Drive should retain it's position requirement to start the combo, add a 12 second 5% damage increase debuff to Chaos Thrust that after it falls off gives a 30s immunity buff, like how Virus works currently.

I think all of this would clear up damage issues Dragoon has for Single Target putting them on par with Monk and Ninja, while also giving them some raid wide utility as well.

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The numbers might need work but after much thought, this is the starting point I posted in another thread.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

aside the fact that nearly every big party hit in this game is magical which is a pain for DRGs, you do realize you're not supposed to beat T12/13 in i110 right ?

for T13, when the teams are finally able to meet the dps check, you'll see that DRGs are just as much viable as any other class. Not surviving an enrage doesn't make a job bad or anything. Or else every job should be upped to be able to survive Garuda's enrage or similar enrages (higher damage per add remaining) at programmed ilevel minus 10

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Point is that those world first clears did not have DRGs. At all. Because they are a liability.

Yes you're not intended to be clearing Final Coil in i110. But you can. Except DRGs cannot.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Point is that those world first clears did not have DRGs. At all. Because they are a liability.

Yes you're not intended to be clearing Final Coil in i110. But you can. Except DRGs cannot.

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yeah but that's not a design error. The groups clearing T13 did not meet the dps check yet afaik, or at least they didn't on their first downs. Would have they met the dps check, DRGs could have survived.

As I said on some various threads or forums, should there be a physical enrage, every mage would get wrecked and noone would complain. People only complain now because there is at the moment only one magic vulnerable job, while every big hits are magical.

If you ask me, devs' error here was to allow anyone to survive the enrage if any add remains alive. DRGs are only collateral damage here.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Gigaflare isn't an enrage.

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we have different calling then. Anyway, it kills you if you don't kill adds in time. This doesn't change the other things I said.

Gigaflare isn't an enrage.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

we have different calling then. Anyway, it kills you if you don't kill adds in time. This doesn't change the other things I said.

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No, it just kills you if you're a DRG. You can mitigate it as much as you want, it's virtually always going to kill a DRG with no gear upgrades. Has been discussed among people who actually have tried T13 with a DRG.

forget gigaflare, heck megaflare crit is enough to kill DRG with SS+adlo+Soil

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

No, it just kills you if you're a DRG. You can mitigate it as much as you want, it's virtually always going to kill a DRG with no gear upgrades. Has been discussed among people who actually have tried T13 with a DRG.

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I'll allow you to say that once you provide a T13 video where the group actually clears all the adds in time and the DRG still dies. And you're still ignoring the fact that the real issue here is that some can survive if the dps check isn't met. Not the fact that DRG takes more damages

Excuse my ignorance, but is there another encounter in the game where DRG can actually feel the lower mdef aside from T13?

If not, it's the encounter that could need a fix and not the job.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Excuse my ignorance, but is there another encounter in the game where DRG can actually feel the lower mdef aside from T13?

If not, it's the encounter that could need a fix and not the job.

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T10, T11, T12, T13

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I'll allow you to say that once you provide a T13 video where the group actually clears all the adds in time and the DRG still dies. And you're still ignoring the fact that the real issue here is that some can survive if the dps check isn't met. Not the fact that DRG takes more damages

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you're confused somewhere

there's a gigaflare that casts at 14minutes that is the enrage and will kill EVERYONE. You cannot live through it. The issue is that the gigaflares and megaflares that are a regular part of the bahamut rotation do a lot of damage to drgs, which is manageable because I just wear more vit accessories. I'm doing t13 with 7k hp as opposed to others with 6.3k. I can barely survive with 7k but I do survive. The biggest issue is that without a monk with dragonkick and mantra to a lesser degree, everyone is taking a lot more damage from megaflares, gigaflares and ack morn on the tanks. That's causing more of the issue. Every t13 clear currently has atleast one monk because the -10% int debuff is super super helpful. We have been killed by mechanics that we would have lived through if I was a monk instead of a dragoon. The other issue is that monk does more damage than dragoons and bring more UTILITY in the terms of dragonkick+mantra.

How you doing on T13 Yan? We are working on last phase of T11 T_T ... getting close.

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Originally Posted by Daweism

How you doing on T13 Yan? We are working on last phase of T11 T_T ... getting close.

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20%ish

think it should go down soon hopefully

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Ignoring the DPS entirely (which is not a small issue) DRG's other problem is that they are literally impossible to bring into i110 Final Coil progression and survive, due to their lower magic damage. Especially if you're giving up a MNK's DK to bring them.

If you were to rate DEF/MDEF on equipment from a scale of 1 to 4:
Tanks are 4/4
Mages are 1/3
DRG is 3/1
Everyone else is 2/2

DRG equipment needs to be buffed to 3/2 to be able to survive extreme amounts of AoE, or evened out to 2/2.

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Wouldn't be anything wrong at all with going 3/2, they're supposed to be heavy armor and even a 4/2 wouldn't make them capable of tanking.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Wouldn't be anything wrong at all with going 3/2, they're supposed to be heavy armor and even a 4/2 wouldn't make them capable of tanking.

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Orly? my drg can tank non magical hard hitting boss (t7) like 20s (esp if the nub pld dead and the scrub war didn't defiance + provoke)

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Originally Posted by Empressia

Orly? my drg can tank non magical hard hitting boss (t7) like 20s (esp if the nub pld dead and the scrub war didn't defiance + provoke)

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You say that like 20 seconds is significant. Go design a strat around it then.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You say that like 20 seconds is significant. Go design a strat around it then.

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Pretty much that. Dragoons can't tank as of now - and tanking is definitely not "standing there struggling to stay alive under bosses' autoattack before even any other threat is being taken into consideration (whatever weaponskill/instant attack)". Without positionals and Blood for Blood, we can't hold aggro for long. Without cures, we can't survive enough for a tank to be raised (with cures being shifted to him). Without cooldowns (Foresight and Keen Flurry ain't nearly enough and you know it) we don't have any kind of edge to survive important attacks. So their current physical defense is basically useless and only improves survivability in open world, nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You say that like 20 seconds is significant. Go design a strat around it then.

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20 seconds is the time to raise, buff and make a tank ready to take hate back. It IS significant as an off-tank role if the tanks are out.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

They are talking about bosses with low magic damage on melee, such as T7. Another issue is that even though the window might be long enough, the mechanics of the fight would win out. Once the Dragoon has to turn around, and doesn't have Flash to maintain aggro while doing it, they are going to lose aggro.

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that's an other problem. But in the case which they can hold hate for 20 seconds, that's significant. Of course a lot of stuff can happen in between, but still...

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

20 seconds is the time to raise, buff and make a tank ready to take hate back. It IS significant as an off-tank role if the tanks are out.

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They are talking about bosses with low magic damage on melee, such as T7. Another issue is that even though the window might be long enough, the mechanics of the fight would win out. Once the Dragoon has to turn around, and doesn't have Flash to maintain aggro while doing it, they are going to lose aggro.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

They are talking about bosses with low magic damage on melee, such as T7. Another issue is that even though the window might be long enough, the mechanics of the fight would win out. Once the Dragoon has to turn around, and doesn't have Flash to maintain aggro while doing it, they are going to lose aggro.

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I'm probably incorrect here, but isn't it that the other damage dealers also have to face the target to actually be able to hit it? So when the DRG turns around (and everyone else turns around, too, as otherwise they'd be petrified) and stops hitting the boss, everyone else also stops hitting the boss, so whom would he lose hate/aggro to?

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

I'm probably incorrect here, but isn't it that the other damage dealers also have to face the target to actually be able to hit it? So when the DRG turns around (and everyone else turns around, too, as otherwise they'd be petrified) and stops hitting the boss, everyone else also stops hitting the boss, so whom would he lose hate/aggro to?

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He meant that we gotta go to the flank and the rear of the boss for a couple of our abilities - and we can't do that if we have the aggro of the mob. -15% damage because of no Heavy Thrust and ~8-9% even less damage because of no Disembowel - not even mentioning the loss of Chaos Thrust. Also, you can't really expect dragoons to be top aggro after tanks, depending on how many shrieks they got and how good the other DPS are. Assuming everyone is on equal level, during battle, dragoons will lose aggro.

Also, for anyone suggesting that, good luck on being "off-tanks" during adds phase.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

He meant that we gotta go to the flank and the rear of the boss for a couple of our abilities - and we can't do that if we have the aggro of the mob. -15% damage because of no Heavy Thrust and ~8-9% even less damage because of no Disembowel - not even mentioning the loss of Chaos Thrust. Also, you can't really expect dragoons to be top aggro after tanks, depending on how many shrieks they got and how good the other DPS are. Assuming everyone is on equal level, during battle, dragoons will lose aggro.

Also, for anyone suggesting that, good luck on being "off-tanks" during adds phase.

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But he actually spoke of "mechanics of the fight" and neither HT nor ID qualify as fight mechanics and he also wrote "the Dragoon has to turn around" which isn't the same as going flank or rear (as you just never turn around while doing that, you'll want to keep facing the mob 100% of the time to keep your auto attacks connecting).

I'm not proposing any form of Dragoon tanking as in my eyes it's not viable. Of course we may hold an add in the Melusine fight long enough for the OT to be raised, but filling in as an emergency solution isn't what I'd seriously consider as tanking. Any serious tanking would have the Dragoon drop dead in a matter of seconds.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

But he actually spoke of "mechanics of the fight" and neither HT nor ID qualify as fight mechanics and he also wrote "the Dragoon has to turn around" which isn't the same as going flank or rear (as you just never turn around while doing that, you'll want to keep facing the mob 100% of the time to keep your auto attacks connecting).

I'm not proposing any form of Dragoon tanking as in my eyes it's not viable. Of course we may hold an add in the Melusine fight long enough for the OT to be raised, but filling in as an emergency solution isn't what I'd seriously consider as tanking. Any serious tanking would have the Dragoon drop dead in a matter of seconds.

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Oh. Sorry, yes, I mistook what he meant - I thought that "turn around" referred to the dragoon switching from rear to flank etc. Then yeah, "not having flash while turned" is not really the main issue here. Not being able to dish out maximum damage as a dragoon, which already isn't much compared to others in optimal circumstances, is already an obstacle; that is because our threatis directly tied to damage, due to our lack of threat managing weaponskills. Except Skull Sunder...yeah, no.

I know you specifically didn't mean to propose that, I was talking about others in this and other threads who continue stating that our physical defense is good for holding the boss. Which, as you pointed out, is not actually the case. Not at all. And it's maddening to read more and more comments about dragoons being "viable for tanking physical enemies" when it's like stating that a Black Mage could tank a magic boss.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

I know you specifically didn't mean to propose that, I was talking about others in this and other threads who continue stating that our physical defense is good for holding the boss. Which, as you pointed out, is not actually the case. Not at all. And it's maddening to read more and more comments about dragoons being "viable for tanking physical enemies" when it's like stating that a Black Mage could tank a magic boss.

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It was a specific answer to a specific situation though. On certain fights, if the DRG is forced to tank (shit happens) and can be healed for (let's say) 20 seconds, that's enough time to raise the tank, protect/SS/adlo him, top him off, trade hate and start over from here. BLM could do it for magic bosses if not for their low HP pool which makes it harder to let them live that long.

Ofc DRG are all but viable tanks. They are just able to serve as "oh shit" off tanks for a handful of seconds, which is enough to start over if noone hits the panic mode button.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

It was a specific answer to a specific situation though. On certain fights, if the DRG is forced to tank (shit happens) and can be healed for (let's say) 20 seconds, that's enough time to raise the tank, protect/SS/adlo him, top him off, trade hate and start over from here. BLM could do it for magic bosses if not for their low HP pool which makes it harder to let them live that long.

Ofc DRG are all but viable tanks. They are just able to serve as "oh shit" off tanks for a handful of seconds, which is enough to start over if noone hits the panic mode button.

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It's very specific. As in, really specific. Melusine. A single boss, who shouldn't deal a critical damage and would require the full attention of at least one of the healers - so it's slowing down the tank's recovery. And even then, it's not like a monk wouldn't be able to survive a little more, with his Second Wind/Mantra and Fists of the Earth (skills which are either unique or stronger with this job - and there are still others like Featherfoot), you know - so not even in that are dragoons more "tanky" than others. It depends more on the healers rather than the unfortunate 'off-tank', the dragoon itself doesn't help at all.

Ninjas can be unforgiving too compared to drg too. If u f up on jutsu dont maintain your haste its a huge dps lost. And due to how it is now mhdras being so sluggish and even laggy at times or unresponsive mudras u can easily f up and loose out on 2+k damage. If u dont have haste on its even worst. Also ninstakes lots of skills to play people may say o its just a few combination but it isnt. I use other jtsus for diff situation. Heavy thrust works same way as applying hyuton aka haste. And again if u fuck up u gotta wait. All in all it all depends on how well the player is. The class isnt op its just there are alot more bad players then a good player. Im sorry but its the truth.

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Originally Posted by Davkis

Ninjas can be unforgiving too compared to drg too. If u f up on jutsu dont maintain your haste its a huge dps lost. And due to how it is now mhdras being so sluggish and even laggy at times or unresponsive mudras u can easily f up and loose out on 2+k damage. If u dont have haste on its even worst. Also ninstakes lots of skills to play people may say o its just a few combination but it isnt. I use other jtsus for diff situation. Heavy thrust works same way as applying hyuton aka haste. And again if u fuck up u gotta wait. All in all it all depends on how well the player is. The class isnt op its just there are alot more bad players then a good player. Im sorry but its the truth.

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There's a difference between f*ing up a Ninjutsu on you NIN and f*ing up a positional on your DRG. F*ing up a Ninjutsu is most likely the player's fault and fully in your control. F*ing up a positional usually comes from either the tank turning the mob around like he was on dope or from boss mechanics that make him turn around (e.g. Melusine turns around when shooting fireballs, good luck getting your HT or ID in at that moment), both of which are not under the control of the DRG himself.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

There's a difference between f*ing up a Ninjutsu on you NIN and f*ing up a positional on your DRG. F*ing up a Ninjutsu is most likely the player's fault and fully in your control. F*ing up a positional usually comes from either the tank turning the mob around like he was on dope or from boss mechanics that make him turn around (e.g. Melusine turns around when shooting fireballs, good luck getting your HT or ID in at that moment), both of which are not under the control of the DRG himself.

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Any good DRG can "juke" the positional requirement by factoring latency and anticipating the boss turning. If you miss heavy thrust it's your own fault.

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Originally Posted by Verus

Any good DRG can "juke" the positional requirement by factoring latency and anticipating the boss turning. If you miss heavy thrust it's your own fault.

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Of course it's my fault, as I can easily anticipate things such as:

- the tank suddenly turning the boss
- tank losing aggro to someone so that the boss turns around
- tank dying so that the boss turns around
- bosses turning around for certain skills in a unpredictable pattern

Guess I just need to dust of that crystal ball to become a better DRG such as you are.

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Originally Posted by Verus

Any good DRG can "juke" the positional requirement by factoring latency and anticipating the boss turning. If you miss heavy thrust it's your own fault.

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Please, just stop.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Of course it's my fault, as I can easily anticipate things such as:

- the tank suddenly turning the boss
- tank losing aggro to someone so that the boss turns around
- tank dying so that the boss turns around
- bosses turning around for certain skills in a unpredictable pattern

Guess I just need to dust of that crystal ball to become a better DRG such as you are.

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-You can predict that
-It's someone's fault, but you can be watching hate meters too.
-You're worried about DPS at this point?
-"unpredictable" lol