DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

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Originally Posted by Dwill

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I'm wondering this as well. But it's also not the first time I have seen someone suggest that Dragoons can be off tanks either. I was in an Ramuh Ex party a few weeks ago which was running with a solo tank. The tank then said that if he died I should run to B (which was a mark 90 degrees to the tanks right) and act as an off tank while he was rezzed and collected 3 orbs. I didn't voice my opinion but I'm sure you can gather my reaction. The person with the lowest magic defence tanking an enemy who throws about lightning bolts for fun. What could possibly go wrong?

Of course the tank did die and I went and took up my spot on the executioners block. I'll show how it went in gif form.

http://p.fod4.com/p/media/e0203a4fe8...c31674f80d.gif

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

People don't get it. They aren't top DPS because they can act as a back up tanks. Aswell as titan can in a pinch.

Because of this utility they don't get top tier DPS.

As for all the LOL DRG dead screen shot. lots of DRG Play stupid because if this extra defense, vs playing smart and moving.

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I have to ask you..

u wot m8?

I'm facepalming at all of you. The most DRG needs would be a removal of the fact that Impulse Drive HAS to be from behind to cause the ID -> D -> CT combo. Other than that, DRG is stable as hell, you don't need any fixes at all. I hate using this phrase, but it's time I say this like Yoshi-P did when it came to Warrior before it was buffed...Learn To Play.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm facepalming at all of you. The most DRG needs would be a removal of the fact that Impulse Drive HAS to be from behind to cause the ID -> D -> CT combo. Other than that, DRG is stable as hell, you don't need any fixes at all. I hate using this phrase, but it's time I say this like Yoshi-P did when it came to Warrior before it was buffed...Learn To Play.

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..and then he went and changed/buffed warrior anyways.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm facepalming at all of you. The most DRG needs would be a removal of the fact that Impulse Drive HAS to be from behind to cause the ID -> D -> CT combo. Other than that, DRG is stable as hell, you don't need any fixes at all. I hate using this phrase, but it's time I say this like Yoshi-P did when it came to Warrior before it was buffed...Learn To Play.

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Except that it was mathematically proven that warriors were straight out broken and they got fixed. Got any other awesome argument champ ?

The people got upset at PLD vs WAR in 2.0, and WAR got buffed in 2.1. WAR and PLD are in great spots now.

The people got upset at BLM vs SMN in 2.2, and BLM got buffed in 2.3. Likewise they're both viable and fine to bring as your caster.

In 2.4, it's DRG vs NIN mainly. And it's the same deal, completely outclassing in every way. Pattern follows that they're going to mega-buff DRG in 2.5.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Except that it was mathematically proven that warriors were straight out broken and they got fixed. Got any other awesome argument champ ?

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Was WAR broken or was PLD broken?

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

Was WAR broken or was PLD broken?

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WAR had 0 dmg mitigation and in the first coil of bahamut people were using PLD skills to mitigate some heavy hits to make things easier such stacks on the snake in t1, dreadnaught stacks in t4 at this point very few people did T5 as it was much more difficult and had a few glitches so I don't know if War was excluded from that fight too. War had only high hp and nothing else so was still getting completely destroyed trying to tank those mechanics. Not to mention that healing potency on WAR was based on how many stacks of wrath they had so using inner beast to heal yourself gimped the healing on you until you got the stacks back, although I do miss the 300% inner beast heal lol.

WAR was my first job to 50 and I did it from open beta, it really struggled, even on Titan hard in the last phase (which was the last thing I did before it got buffed) Not to mention it's stun wasn't reliable and could miss add to the fact that it had a long cooldown so people used to just bail out on Ifrit hard if they saw 2 WAR tanks since they expected a PLD to stun lock eruption back then.

I am with you OP. The posts here and in the other threads where nin vs drg has come up have me very uneasy. I have worked very hard on my dragoon, and I'm pretty durn good at it, but with the development of Ninja, my single melee coil static is now discussing the need for one. While they are the best sort of static a girl could hope for, and won't ask me to play a job I don't wanna, it does make me sad that if I stay dragoon, I will be holding our group back even though I'm very on top of my game with it.

I've been unable to see for myself if the gap between DRG and NIN is so great - since I've only teamed up with them in DF stuff like ST, where they end up dead most of the time. But even if it isn't a huge gap, all the posts on the boards are certainly adding to that perception that it is, and when it comes to things like this, perception becomes the truth. Either way, if nothing changes, it appears I may have to consider picking up another role on the team so that someone in our group that wants to play ninja can take the spot of my dragoon.

It would make me very sad to hang up my spear so I am going to offer a few suggestions:

First and foremost: We've been asking for a mdef buff for a long time. It is ridiculous that a goldsmith could survive a magic based attack better than I can in full armor. Combined with the development of NIN, is it any wonder that some view us as a handicap to an endgame party? Since it seems SE is apparently hellbent against straight up fixing this absolutely broken aspect of our job, perhaps they might consider reworking Keen Flurry into a damage mitigator of all types with a lower cooldown. It would add use to a mostly useless skill, and at least slightly address our magical weakness.

And to address the dps/utility gap: Keep our required positionals, I say, but make them more useful. Give Heavy Thrust a crit rate increase alongside the damage potency up. Or increase the potency it grants. Or both. Both is good. You might also have Disembowel also lower the enemy's attack damage by 5%, which would help healers and tanks out. I imagine having their guts hanging out all over the place should take at least a little of the fight out of a bad guy.

As for the animation locks: Reducing them is pointless. Those reductions have had absolutely no effect on how I play dragoon because they still exist. I still can't just jump whenever it's off CD. I still have to know the boss's rotation more than any other dps in order to compensate for it. If you want to fix this, remove it completely. Otherwise, it is a wasted effort as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, there's my thoughts on it all. Here's hoping when the ninja dust settles, there will still be some dragoons left in endgame. And that I'm still among them.

DRG's are fine. I had no problem playing mine and dishing out major damage in previous patches. All i hear is senseless crying about how DRG's ain't special. As others have posted, learn to play better. Because quite frankly, iv'e seen alot of people "claim" they are "good", but suck. And here, have this......No hard feelings......

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploa...waterfalls.gif

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

DRG's are fine. I had no problem playing mine and dishing out major damage in previous patches. All i hear is senseless crying about how DRG's ain't special. As others have posted, learn to play better. Because quite frankly, iv'e seen alot of people "claim" they are "good", but suck. And here, have this......No hard feelings......

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You misunderstand. The average player won't see the disparity between the jobs because the average player will not be playing their job to their maximum potential.
The issues arise in the very high end play where you are doing fights that are essentially supposed to be gearchecks, without actually having the gear, where every little bit of DPS could make or break the fight. I'm talking t12+ with current ilevel 110 gear.
I feel that anyone who has been able to reach these fights with the current gear available and notice the disparity can be classified as "good".

1. Remove the 15% dmg buff from being tied to the flank bonus, meaning you will still gain the buff if executed anywhere but the potency increase will only happen if done from the flank.

2. Lower Elusive Jump to 60 sec cd or at the very least 90 sec.

3. Invincibility during jump animation when you character is off screen. While yes this probably can be abused I find it hard to believe that people will exploit a 1-2 second jump animation to dodge a mechanic while dealing with server and isp lag. Plus it annoys me to no end that when I use a jump (spineshattter/dragonfire) I can be hit by Lunar Dynamo during the second divebomb phase trying to get back into the group after placing my mark.

This is why dragoons are losing the war.

WTB flat out removed positional requirements to recieve buffs and combo procs.

seriously, neither monk or nin have that with either of their combos (with nin only having it for two attacks that share the same cd), what makes drg so special?

Dragoon is still a strong DPS and is the ONLY melee with good AoE (yes, there is more in this game than single target raids). The whole NIN bandwagon crap will end pretty soon once people realize they can't play the job optimally. MNK is better in terms of single target DPS, but again MNK AoE is only better with Perfect Balance and is subpar otherwise.

This is far from WAR 2.0. That was a legitimate disconnect in balance where one option was completely superior in every single way compared to the other.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

DRG's are fine. I had no problem playing mine and dishing out major damage in previous patches. All i hear is senseless crying about how DRG's ain't special. As others have posted, learn to play better. Because quite frankly, iv'e seen alot of people "claim" they are "good", but suck. And here, have this......No hard feelings......

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Dragoon is not fine, they are almost nonviable in the Final Coil.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

Dragoon is not fine, they are almost nonviable in the Final Coil.

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That's stretching it, hard.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

That's stretching it, hard.

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No, it isn't. T11 is extremely brutal on Dragoons.

DRGs buffing Brds is not the best argument, since classes should be balanced on their own and not depended on a certain setup. even with BRD being almost a must have for serious raiding. Hence BRDs should get a dmg buff imo.
For DRGs it would already help to get rid of Heavy Thrust's positional requirement, so your rotation doesn't get thrown off if missed and change something about the synergy when you end up with more than one DRG.

What could be done without changing too much regarding potencies and the general way the class works, is to just switch Disembowl and Heavy Thrust. Make Heavy Thrust part of the Chaos thrust combo while having Disembowl separated. (flank requirement could go to Disembowl, before ppl shout it is too easy now). In the case of more than one DRG, only one of them would have to care about Disembowl.

Also one simple thing that always annoyed me is that better Invigorate should mean better TP management, but in the end DRGs starve for TP as much as the other melee do in a long fight...

The advantage of DRG over monk is that it has faster ramp up time on its dps. Monk must get GL3 which takes at least 9 gcds if no PB. DRG does not have to do this and can go right into their rotation at max dps.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

Also one simple thing that always annoyed me is that better Invigorate should mean better TP management, but in the end DRGs starve for TP as much as the other melee do in a long fight...

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That is because their abilities have a high TP cost for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

DRGs buffing Brds is not the best argument, since classes should be balanced on their own and not depended on a certain setup. even with BRD being almost a must have for serious raiding. Hence BRDs should get a dmg buff imo.
For DRGs it would already help to get rid of Heavy Thrust's positional requirement, so your rotation doesn't get thrown off if missed and change something about the synergy when you end up with more than one DRG.

What could be done without changing too much regarding potencies and the general way the class works, is to just switch Disembowl and Heavy Thrust. Make Heavy Thrust part of the Chaos thrust combo while having Disembowl separated. (flank requirement could go to Disembowl, before ppl shout it is too easy now). In the case of more than one DRG, only one of them would have to care about Disembowl.

Also one simple thing that always annoyed me is that better Invigorate should mean better TP management, but in the end DRGs starve for TP as much as the other melee do in a long fight...

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this guy gets it.

If u balance around having NIN AND DRG for brd u are doing it wrong

same goes for NIN WAR combo so nin can avoid using dancing edge

or caster + brd


Drgs need QoL changes

Brd a boost on single target (blabla mp regen blabla foe ) doble bard on sastasha hard is a pain (no DPS LB) and the lowest dmg of all the dps ( yeah i know a brd that does more dmg than a random mnk :rolleyes:)

Mnks dunno but GL is annoying ,but the same could be said about mudras and server lag (i rage everytime i see the rabbit when i know it wasnt my fault )

Blms : let them move and cast the next spell while surecast dammit

Smn : make contagion a spell >.> bane doesnt use charges but has a 30s cd?

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Originally Posted by Zumi

The advantage of DRG over monk is that it has faster ramp up time on its dps. Monk must get GL3 which takes at least 9 gcds if no PB. DRG does not have to do this and can go right into their rotation at max dps.

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This is not relevant in any single endgame raid encounter. Coil bosses never become untargetable or force you to stop attacking them for more than a few seconds at a time, and if they do, they usually supply an add mechanic. This was relevant in 2.2 when people actually cared about performance in Primal encounters; it no longer is.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

Elusive jump doesn't feel "elusive". For starters all jumps minus the standard jump got a time reduction. Why not Elusive jump? What would be so broken about it? Decrease time from 180 to 90-120. Secondly, remove the enmity reduction and give the ability to elude ground based AOE's that are avoidable ( anything that has a ground marker like Landslide, Acid rain etc).

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SE if you are reading this please do NOT remove enmity reduction from Elusive Jump. I find it extremely useful in many different situations.

1. Spike damage pulls hate.
   
2. Tank dies and enemy moves to me being second on hate list, tank is raised and is regaining hate.
   
3. Flashing amber hate icon elusive lets me drop hate so I can continue pushing dps hard.
   
4. AoE on groups of mobs pulls hate from tank, elusive sends them back to the tank.

There's probably more examples but those are a few that come to mind.

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Originally Posted by Krr

This is not relevant in any single endgame raid encounter.

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How about T9?

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Originally Posted by Fated

Dragoon is still a strong DPS and is the ONLY melee with good AoE (yes, there is more in this game than single target raids). The whole NIN bandwagon crap will end pretty soon once people realize they can't play the job optimally. MNK is better in terms of single target DPS, but again MNK AoE is only better with Perfect Balance and is subpar otherwise.

This is far from WAR 2.0. That was a legitimate disconnect in balance where one option was completely superior in every single way compared to the other.

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I have to disagree with you there. At the least, WAR was always the higher DPS option of the two tanks, both by itself and with the Storm's Eye debuff affecting both tanks, so there was at least fair merit to bringing PLD + WAR. Many groups chose PLD + PLD anyway which was fine but there was still reason to bring WAR.

NIN is just on another level to DRG in every single way. It is not even funny. NIN ...

- Bursts harder. Say hello to 4K+ immediate damage within a few seconds and a 10% raid buff while everyone's at their strongest ...
- Sustains for quite a bit more DPS. This is easily counting the BRD buff, and I play with very, very strong BRDs who can do 450+ solo. Even that getting a 10% buff can't make up for NIN's sustained + raid buff. NIN is above 500 before the raid buff, no problem. DRG can't even dream of this without more than i110 gear.
- Has more survivability. Less reliance on B4B (DRG B4B is so strong it's very bad to throttle it, and when you do you lose out on a bit of DPS even further) and required positionals, no lock-up animations like Jump, a free physical dodge, no TERRIBLE MDEF which yes matters - recently in our T12 progression we had trouble keeping DRG up during the Flames of Rebirth, not the tanks, and I hear T13's even worse
- Isn't reliant on positionals 99% of the time. DRG becomes just terrible, the absolute worst if you miss a positional, it's a huge potency loss and it delays your combo further - also, multiple mechanics in Final Coil really demand certain positioning which will hurt your combo hard
- Pretty sure NIN even wins in the AoE department in real encounters. 100 potency every 2s with an auto-crit 240 potency Doton (effectively 360 potency) and 180 potency once every 20s. Besides the potency, it's just plain easy to do and consistent to hit everything - DRG has to Heavy Thrust and then do a thin line AoE to do its max damage, and I don't care how good you are, you're going to miss at the least a small part of the mobs with how thin the line is.

Let's not even go into how ... NIN lasts 6m+ without any Army's Paeon or Goad, NIN can give a free Invigorate to anyone it wants in the form of Goad, its Mercy Stroke equivalent is on a 40s timer compared to 90s Mercy Stroke, it moves faster than DRG, it has a teleport which you don't have to throttle for a bit to help movement like DRG, NIN gives a free Storm's Eye equivalent for tanks so you can keep perma-Storm's Path up, and NIN's DPS even benefits a bit from Foe's Requiem ...

So yeah. It's bad for DRG right now. They're worthless compared to NIN, side by side.

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Originally Posted by Edli

How about T9?

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Don't waste Perfect Balance.

And even then, we aren't accounting for the fact that NIN has a ramp time just as short or shorter than DRG's with higher topend DPS. The meta isn't DRG-MNK any more. It's DRG-MNK-NIN.

Also, T9 isn't a top-end encounter any more.

drg isn't broken,
most drg's are just lazy and or don't know how to play the job.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

drg isn't broken,
most drg's are just lazy and or don't know how to play the job.

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Exactly. All the top end turn 12/13 clears, the best players in the world who are by and large running combinations of MNK and MNK/NIN, just have lazy/stupid DRGs. Makes sense.

Not sure if sarcasm... but i won't change my opinion either way, I've seen many dragoons who suck at what they do and then others who never loldrg and always get the final attack.

will say, the job is more painful to play with keyboard and mouse unless you tap num5 to lock on.

It sounds to me like everyone is making this into a bigger problem than it is...

First off: DRG is the easiest job to play IMO... Maybe I'm alone on that, but when you really learn your rotation and priorities, then you can do a great deal of damage actually... and missing positional attacks shouldn't happen often. MNKs doesn't lose as much if they don't hit one, but they have a much harder and more active requirements for positions, often resulting in more positional misses, which evens it out...

A good DRG can be relatively close to MNK/NIN dps actually, and please don't come with your huge difference in numbers again... People have gotten a lot closer than is being insinuated here.

Add 10% extra dps from a BRD, and a DRG can compete with the dps of the others... Better than 10% more damage for 10 secs every now and then. Using all your buffs/pots for Trick Attack won't make a difference either, it's still only 10% more damage than you would do otherwise... Please learn math.

They are a little short on dps, and they shouldn't rely on BRD that much, but just a small increase would be enough. The low magic resist have been annoying, but I haven't played my DRG that much lately, didn't they fix that? That should be changed otherwise...

Lowering the CD on Jump and maybe some other small change would do it.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Add 10% extra dps from a BRD, and a DRG can compete with the dps of the others... Better than 10% more damage for 10 secs every now and then. Using all your buffs/pots for Trick Attack won't make a difference either, it's still only 10% more damage than you would do otherwise... Please learn math.

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Too bad it's not a 10% damage buffs to bards, since Disembowel only applies to initial hits and not dots. It has been estimated that the actual damage buff is around 6-7%. Please learn math.

Anyway, what I think would be best is to give DRG's job skills more flavor and utility. Allow jumps to have invincibility frames while off screen - this would allow the DRG to be able to compensate for its lower overall DPS with the ability to actually STAY on the boss more (if he's skilled enough to time jumps with enemy attacks), thus slightly increase its dps.

I think it would be a rather interesting concept that would put DRG in the "constant melee DPS specialist", a bit like SMN is for ranged DPS. Jumping at the right time will require skill anyway, so I hardly believe it would be seriously exploited. Also it's dangerous, since if you fail you will most likely take lots of damage due to low MDEF.

Just an idea.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

A good DRG can be relatively close to MNK/NIN dps actually

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No. Unless your MNK and NIN are awful at their jobs. Don't make me post parser logs that... ahem.. My party member gave me.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

Not sure if sarcasm... but i won't change my opinion either way, I've seen many dragoons who suck at what they do and then others who never loldrg and always get the final attack.

will say, the job is more painful to play with keyboard and mouse unless you tap num5 to lock on.

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Your opinion is does not change the facts.


Many people have suggested adding i-frames to jumps but it doesn't seem a very feasible option from my standpoint. Technically, this could add a whole new level of skill as you would be able to completely negate the need for dodging aoes with proper timing but this would also be incredibly broken for certain instances.

Yea. I'm a BRD main. The difference is 6-7% like you mentioned. It's even likely lower than 6% on plenty of bosses when you consider boss jumps and adds.

It takes a DRG 2 or 3 GCDs to get Disembowel up. 3 if HT has fallen off or it's the beginning of the fight. 2 if the stoppage was short or they're switching targets with plenty of time still left on their HT buff. I suppose it can also be as short as 1 GCD if they prep it by using ID on their previous target. Can be done but not always optimal for them.

T10 - 2 add phases. I keep my dots on two or three of these adds at a time. Disembowel will only add 10% to the initial potency of one of those sets of dots. And not even the ticks. Add in the seconds to takes to apply Disembowel to any of these adds. Add in time where they can't keep up the buff if they are chosen for a charge. Or miss a positional due to the boss turning for a charge. Or having to stand in the way of a charge.

T11 - potential downtime on Disembowel due to dodging pizza. Can only keep Disembowel up on one add. In a party with 1 caster the bard will want to dot one of the other adds too to make sure they are killed around the same time. Add in the final phase tethers to the other issues and you will see potentially even more Disembowel downtime.

T12 - Potential Disembowel downtime on either the adds or the boss when adds are up. Downtime if they are chosen for certain mechanics. Like the blue marker. Downtime during phase 3 adds because of the time it can take to get Disembowel up and the running around a bit to get away from certain adds once they have been killed. More potential Disembowel downtime in final phase if they need to keep a tether from hitting other people and also if they are soaking the fire puddles. And after boss jumps. Happens after each rotation.

T13 - potential Disembowel downtime while dealing with mega flare and other mechanics. Plenty of adds. Boss jumps. More downtime. Etc. Etc.

Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy the Disembowel piercing debuff and all, but I'll take a MNK and/or NIN any day of the week for increased overall raid damage. Goad and Trick Attack keep me much happier than Disembowel. Receiving Goad 2x every raid boss has been amazing.

Really hoping to see some changes to DRG in 3.0 as I really do enjoy the job.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

First off: DRG is the easiest job to play IMO... it.

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Really? Everyone have been telling me that MNK is way easier to use due to least punishment on missing positional , higher survivability and higher up time. ( I mainly raid as DRG, rarely use MNK)

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Originally Posted by Craiger

A good DRG can be relatively close to MNK/NIN dps actually, and please don't come with your huge difference in numbers again... People have gotten a lot closer than is being insinuated here.

Add 10% extra dps from a BRD, and a DRG can compete with the dps of the others...

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A good DRG will never ever come close to MNK dps (provided that they both perform equally well). Even with 10%(does not buff DoT) extra DPS from BRD we still fall behind from other melee.. I have no idea on NIN dps as I've never raid with a good NIN at the moment

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Originally Posted by Koroem

Also the disembowel buff/debuff is now a joke with the release of Ninja. It really needs to be changed.

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You want them to change the FULL TIME piercing debuff to something else because NIN can buff everyone for 10s at a time? LOL What they COULD do is take it out of the CT combo so that the combo doesn't become semiredundant with 2 DRGS (Disembowel does not stack but CT does).

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Originally Posted by Sentinillia

All of us that care about min/maxing and getting the most out of our jobs. Nothing is more satisfying than the feeling of perfectly executing every single move in an encounter, knowing you did the best you are capable of doing.



BLM is one of the strongest DPS classes right now, rivaling that of MNK and NIN while still having massive aoe utility. Please go bait elsewhere.

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Even you minority min/maxers can't execute PERFECT combos in every encounter. There will always be mechanics that push you out of range or put you in positions where your positionals are impossible for a few seconds or more (Try managing Disembowel/CT against Kraken in Sastasha HM. You have to bounce to the tentacles to put it on Kraken). In combat right now I'm not witnessing that big a gap between me and the other melee DPS. I could give two shits what numbers against a dummy say.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

Also one simple thing that always annoyed me is that better Invigorate should mean better TP management, but in the end DRGs starve for TP as much as the other melee do in a long fight...

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Learn to manage TP...and lay off on the Skill Speed...lol...really though the reason Invigorate isn't more potent is because of our AoE capability. We can already spam RoT/Doom Spike constantly with Invigorate use longer than most other DPS can sustain AoE damage.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Exactly. All the top end turn 12/13 clears, the best players in the world who are by and large running combinations of MNK and MNK/NIN, just have lazy/stupid DRGs. Makes sense.

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You mean the ONE T13 clear? FFS... Don't really want to read back through the first few pages but either this thread or one of the others had a DRG who cleared T10-11 and his group was close to T12. Again most of us could give two craps about min/maxers who want to steamroll all the content in a week...for the general raiding population there is no problem with DRG.

^three.....