Ninja damage insane over monk

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Originally Posted by MrSigy

quoted for best response on-topic

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Looks like a ton of stuff to keep track of on paper, but it's not that bad when you're actually doing it. Then again, I'm only lvl 41 at the moment so I'm missing a few things out of my rotation, but it's totally doable.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

Looks like a ton of stuff to keep track of on paper, but it's not that bad when you're actually doing it. Then again, I'm only lvl 41 at the moment so I'm missing a few things out of my rotation, but it's totally doable.

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Of course it is but you still have to do it on a fight, that's when people fuck up.

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Originally Posted by MrSigy

Of course it is but you still have to do it on a fight, that's when people fuck up.

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Agreed. I have a feeling it's not going to be for the faint of heart, but I welcome the challenge.

I've fought some Ninjas in a 1v1 with my Monk in frontlines - there DPS is no joke, even on GL3 monk I couldn't stand toe to toe with one. I know its pvp its a different ball park then PvE, but when people catch wind with how good they are, its gonna be all bad. Wouldn't be surprised to see the nerf bat coming there way in the next few months

Not surprised would be a MNK player who made this thread complaining that another class has the nerve to come up to or touch it's high single target dps pedestal especially the use of melodramatic tone of thread title trying to make it sound like such is a lot bigger problem than actually is. NiN DMG is not 'insane' compared to MNK at all.

I have a level 50 female second character which is MNK and from what I have seen so far NiN is around on par with MNK in terms of single target damage over the course of an entire fight at least in dungeons and raids, trials and such rather than normal generic non-instanced mobs given NiN has high burst DMG that does not have so many positional requirements as MNK and as such generic non-instanced mobs would naturally fall quicker to high burst DPS rather than slower built up but high sustained DMG after GL3 etc...

Not forgetting sometimes might be slightly higher DPS and sometimes slightly lower DPS in dungeons but due to fights lasting quite a lot longer positional's and sustained DPS comes much more into play over burst DMG quite often...even then that's still down to the players ability to use the classes whether playing NiN or MNK plus what gear they have and their levels of concentration.

If anything needs some changes I think it would be DRG increased slightly to be on par with MNK and NiN perhaps, alternatively if want them to be more equal you would need to nerf MNK's and NiN to be on par with DRG but if you just want NiN nerfed and not MNK despite MNK having a pretty big advantage over DRG already then I am sorry but sounds to me you just want to continue standing on your pedestal looking down on the other single target melee classes.

You shouldn't be basing your argument of being overpowered (which I disagree with anyways) on generic open world mobs however because there is a big difference between nuking a non-dungeon mob taken out by high burst damage in a short time compared to a long lasting dungeon style boss which requires sustainability and bigger reliance on positional's. MNK's are great single target raid boss killing machines still, NiN's are just as good but DRG is still lagging behind the two a bit in my opinion.

You're comparing a ninja to a monk, via open world trash. You're already doing it wrong.

After playing with Ninja more, I've come to realize that some aspects are a little broken. Here's one of them:

1. Huton gives you 70sec of increased attack speed. At first I thought this was autoattacks but it extends to skillspeed. I'm not geared but before Huton = 2.42sec GCD. After Huton this is reduced to 2.05secs, for a full 70 secs duration.

Monk's GL3: +27% damage, +15% skillspeed, stacks need to build up and maintain.
Ninja Huton: +15% skillspeed, 70 sec duration. No damage bonus but you have poison = +20% permanent damage buff.

This clearly is a little excessive.

As to positional requirements, I think it's justified. I've ran many dungeons now and keeping track of Huiton/Trick/2 dots/1 debuff (because there wasn't any warrior)/Kassatsu/Mug/Jugulate/5 other cross class CDs/Mudra execution, takes A LOT out of your brain. This isn't Fire3->Fire1 till low->Blizz3->Thunder2->repeat. The complexity is mind-blowing and adding more positional requirements will fry your brain.

Before anyone complains about lack of positional requirement, get a Ninja to 50. Run a few dungeons or even go raid, making sure everything is up 100%, no mistakes. Then if you still feel they need more positionals I will worship the very ground you walk on.

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Originally Posted by Aphel

After playing with Ninja more, I've come to realize they're a little broken atm.

1. Huton gives you 70sec of increased attack speed. At first I thought this was autoattacks but it extends to skillspeed. I'm not geared but before Huton = 2.42sec GCD. After Huton this is reduced to 2.05secs, for a full 70 secs duration.

*Editing

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And why exactly is that broken? Monk GL3 should be broken then even more so. The first parses from skilled players (= players that are already running T11 on Nin) are showing avg dps of ~410 over a 4 min dummy parse. Of course the job is new and players will find ways to improve rotation, but 410 is more than 100 dps less than the sustained of an i110 monk and i doubt that rotation adjustments are going to squeeze out 25%+ and more to get nin up on par with monk in terms of single target sustained dps.

i110 with HA ninja wep, with food, no dex pots. Flawless rotation for the most part except for accidentally using a fuma shuriken over raiton once, and this would be a best-of parse I'd say 450~ is the average. I've seen monks output an average of 470 over the same circumstances so no, monks still have top DPS in fights with atleast 90% uptime. And using open world mobs to state otherwise is not what I'd consider credible.

http://i.imgur.com/IwdCU6W.png

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

i110 with HA ninja wep, with food, no dex pots. Flawless rotation for the most part except for accidentally using a fuma shuriken over raiton once, and this would be a best-of parse I'd say 450~ is the average. I've seen monks output an average of 470 over the same circumstances so no, monks still have top DPS in fights with atleast 90% uptime. And using open world mobs to state otherwise is not what I'd consider credible.

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On a dummy in full i110 a monk should average more in the 480-485 range (pending lucky crits obviously). Also a question about that parse. Was that final time that you showed from running dry on TP, or did you just end the parse?

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Originally Posted by Aphel

If a ninja is able to keep track of:

1. Mutilate 30-sec bleed
2. Shadow Fang (2-hit combo) 18-sec bleed
3. Dancing Edge (side-positional) 20-sec debuff
4. Huton (3-mudra) 70-sec speed buff on yourself
5. Trick attack 1min CD so that you can Suiton (3-mudra) and execute it
6. Kassatsu CD to reset your ninjutsu timer.
7. Blood for Blood, Internal Release cross-class CDs
8. Execute perfect Raitons (3-mudra), no screwing up (two mudra and activation)
9. Avoid Boss mechanics in melee range.

in a raid scenario, then Ninjas deserve to be in the top DPS spot. It is the most difficult class in FFXIV at the moment.

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Yea but alot of this applies to other classes as well, and I honestly don't know why you added CD's to your list but i'll do it too in my examples, take Monk and Dragoon for example.

Monk
1. Maintain Dragon Kick Debuff
2. Maintain 3 stacks of Greased Lightning
3. Pretty much positional requirements for almost all abilities
4. Internal Release CD
5. Maintain Touch of Death Dot
6. Keep Twin Snake buff
7. Keep Demolish Dot up
8. Blood for Blood cross-class CDs
9. Use Perfect Balance CD
10. Avoid Boss mechanics in melee range.

Dragoon
1. Use all 3 jumps on CD (and without dying)
2. Use Power Surge on CD
3. Maintain Heavy Thrust buff
4. Use Life Surge on CD
5. Few Positional Requirement moves
6. Keep Phlebotomize Dot Up
7. Keep Chaos Thrust Dot Up
8. Keep Disembowel debuff up
9. Internal Release cross-class CDs
10. Use Blood for Blood CD
11. Avoid Boss mechanics in melee range.

The only thing that makes Ninja hard right now is because of the Mudra combos, once you get use to it, it will be alot easier.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Also a question about that parse. Was that final time that you showed from running dry on TP, or did you just end the parse?

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Just ended the parse

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Just ended the parse

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Thanks! Pretty good parse by the way. Looks like ninja will sit in a pretty nice spot for DPS.

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Originally Posted by ZodiacSoldier

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A monk/dragoon have a 6-7 button rotation minus long cooldowns that are constantly used in rotation. Including Mudras a ninja has around 10 under the same circumstances. The more variation a class has, the harder it is.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

I'm just watching my friend thats level 48 just destory mobs in seconds faster then a drag or a monk could do.

Even worse is they don't need Pos requirement.

I think ninja's are gonna be the new monk

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Monk doesn't even get DK until level 50, how can you make an assessment on damage like that?

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

A monk/dragoon have a 6-7 button rotation minus long cooldowns that are constantly used in rotation. Including Mudras a ninja has around 10 under the same circumstances. The more variation a class has, the harder it is.

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Mudras are CDs though. You cant count CDs for one job and dismiss them for others. Without any CDs NIN rotation has only 6 buttons while MNK has 7 and DRG has 8 (not that it really matters though).

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

A monk/dragoon have a 6-7 button rotation minus long cooldowns that are constantly used in rotation. Including Mudras a ninja has around 10 under the same circumstances. The more variation a class has, the harder it is.

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If we take out all the long cool downs and just count the rotations buttons (including DOTs), minus the "execute" style abilities that they use when mobs are below a certain health

Drg has 8 Button, Monk has 7 and Ninja has 6 plus Raiton combo (3 button presses), but honestly you can just probably put Raiton into 1 Macro button to make it 7 buttons. While at the same time Drg has 2 of them with positional requirements while Monk has like 6, Ninja have 1 or none, I was told that Dancing Edge have a mistranslation in the English notes, you don't need positional requirements to get the bonus, just need to combo it.

I'm not saying the Ninja is easier to play, I'm just saying that people are under the misconception that they are harder to play because they are a new class. Once you play it more, it will probably come as second nature. And there aren't enough 50 Ninja yet so I can't say how their DPS compare to other classes.


Damn you ChaozK, you posted what I wanted to saying when I was typing it. T.T

"My jobs is harder to play, so I'm more important!"

"Nu uh! Mine is harder!!"

<both pounce into swirling ball of dust>

Doesn't matter =D

NIN does good damage, it's balanced well among the DPS. "Thay terk err jerrrb!" doesn't apply to anyone. /huzzah

Good job SE and thanks to those who did the work to prove the title of this thread incorrect!

Now, let's get back to the game and play what we enjoy to the best of our ability.

Okay after extensive testing, going through rotations again and again, here's an update:

Naked Monk with 110 weapon, 3mins : 236.94 (Perfect rotation)
Naked Ninja with 110 weapon, 3mins : 222 (The best out of 3 perfect rotations, maintaining Dancing Edge)

The gap will be wider with full 110 equips.
Here are the stark, solid facts.

My Ninja is still way more complex to play than Monk. Perhaps you find it easy to play Ninja, good for you. For me, it truly busts my brain. I have to devote every single bit of attention to every little detail.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

i110 with HA ninja wep, with food, no dex pots. Flawless rotation for the most part except for accidentally using a fuma shuriken over raiton once, and this would be a best-of parse I'd say 450~ is the average. I've seen monks output an average of 470 over the same circumstances so no, monks still have top DPS in fights with atleast 90% uptime. And using open world mobs to state otherwise is not what I'd consider credible.

http://i.imgur.com/IwdCU6W.png

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Mind sharing your rotation? :D I just got my ninja to 50 today and sometime I wanna sit down and practice some rotations for it.

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Originally Posted by Aphel

My Ninja is still way more complex to play than Monk. Perhaps you find it easy to play Ninja, good for you. For me, it truly busts my brain. I have to devote every single bit of attention to every little detail.

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Well you also have to consider that ninja hasn't even been out for a week. You will commit a lot of things to memory with more playtime just as people had to do with the other jobs in the game. It wasn't uncommon for people having a difficult time keeping up with all the buffs, debuffs, DOTs, and CD timers on monk. Bear in mind I'm not trying to say ninja is easy or anything of the sort just that things become easier and more natural to you with time. In a month you might find ninja about as easy to manage as monk, or you might still say it's just as hard. Just a few days of play time isn't much time to make a judgement on how difficult something is to play because it will still be very new and different.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Words

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Originally Posted by ZodiacSoldier

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The difference between normal CDs and ninjutsu being that they have a low enough CD to occur as frequently as any other skill in your rotation. Moving on.

3 mudras,ninjutsu activation, and 6 other skills comprise majority of ninja rotation, that's 10 skills. Secondly a ninja also has trick attack, sneak attack, and dancing edge with positional stipulation. 1 of which requires positional for the bonus. And to correct you, none of monk skills have of positional requirements. Raiton is not the only ninjutsu there are at least 5 other ninjutsu combos and the ability to put a series of skill on macro does not make them a single skill. There are a lot more inconsistencies in your post but you should probably play these classes yourself for starters before engaging in discussion mechanically about them. I've played all 3 and can tell you easily ninja is the hardest of the 3.

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Originally Posted by SolarMisae

Mind sharing your rotation? :D I just got my ninja to 50 today and sometime I wanna sit down and practice some rotations for it.

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Posting on my iPad atm, when I get back to my computer I will.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The difference between normal CDs and ninjutsu being that they have a low enough CD to occur as frequently as any other skill in your rotation. Moving on.

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But for example leg sweep has the same CD as mudras, 20 secs. Why not count that but mudras?

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The difference between normal CDs and ninjutsu being that they have a low enough CD to occur as frequently as any other skill in your rotation. Moving on.

3 mudras,ninjutsu activation, and 6 other skills comprise majority of ninja rotation, that's 10 skills. Secondly a ninja also has surprise attack, sneak attack, and dancing edge with positional stipulation. 1 of which requires positional for the bonus. And to correct you, none of monk skills have of positional requirements. Raiton is not the only ninjutsu there are at least 5 other ninjutsu combos and the ability to put a series of skill on macro does not make them a single skill. There are a lot more inconsistencies in your post but you should probably play these classes yourself for starters before engaging in discussion mechanically about them. I've played all 3 and can tell you easily ninja is the hardest of the 3.

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3 mudras,ninjutsu activation,and 6 other skills comprise majority of ninja rotation, that's 10 skills. Raiton is not the only ninjutsu there are at least 5 other ninjutsu combos

Yes but you will normally will not use all the ninjutsus non stop


Fuma Shuriken - Is unused at high level
Katon - Is AOE attack, if you include this , then you might as well include the AOE of attacks of MNK and DRG
Raiton - The move I listed cause you will use this in your regular rotation
Hyuton - A bind attack that you won't use in normal rotation
Huton - 70 second buff, so I consider this a CD
Doton - An AOE bind
Suiton - Pretty much considered a CD since you will only use it with Trick attack (Sneak Attack if soloing)

Secondly a ninja also has surprise attack, sneak attack, and dancing edge with positional stipulation.

True, but Sneak and Trick attack are on a 60 sec CD, never heard of Surprise attack. And if you actually read my post, Dancing Edge has NO POSITIONAL requirements, there was a translation error in the english version, the positional requirement does not appear in the Japanese, German etc versions.

And to correct you, none of monk skills have of positional requirements.

What? Ok now i'm beginning to think you are trolling me. Unless you are talking about actual activation, its true that you don't have to be at the right position to use the ability, you do have to be at the right position though to get the bonuses, which in my book is a requirement.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

But for example leg sweep has the same CD as mudras, 20 secs. Why not count that but mudras?

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Its offGCD for one, and because Kassatsu resets mudra/ninjutsu CDs so they are used as frequently as other skills in your rotation.

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Originally Posted by ZodiacSoldier

stuff [/B]

What? Ok now i'm beginning to think you are trolling me.

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For starters, you use Suiton, Huton, and Raiton regularly for single target. Secondly, I posted off memory and mean't sneak/trick attack. And Lastly, monk has no positional requirement, similar to dancing edge which you agreed has no requirement, the combos have positional stipulations which give potency benefits if you are at the correct position flank/rear. A positional requirement example would be as you stated Heavy Thrust and impulse drive of a dragoon, because the combo does not register unless you are at the specified position.

Again, have you actually played these classes? Or just watched youtube videos?

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

Its offGCD for one, and because Kassatsu resets mudra/ninjutsu CDs so they are used as frequently as other skills in your rotation.

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Yea but Leg Sweep is also off GCD and also 20 sec timer, and Kassatsu has a 2 Min CD.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

For starters, you use Suiton, Huton, and Raiton regularly for single target. Secondly, I posted off memory and mean't sneak/trick attack. And Lastly, monk has no positional requirement, similar to dancing edge which you agreed has no requirement, the combos have positional stipulations which give potency benefits if you are at the correct position flank/rear. A positional requirement example would be as you stated Heavy Thrust and impulse drive of a dragoon, because the combo does not register unless you are at the specified position.

Again, have you actually played these classes? Or just watched youtube videos?

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I play the classes occasionally since I play more PLD to grind Light, and I work full time so haven't gotten Ninja to 50 yet only about 44.

you use Suiton, Huton, and Raiton regularly for single target.

Its true you will use all 3 abilities, but realistically you will only use Raiton as part of your combo, Suiton like i said you will only use when Trick/Sneak are up and those I consider CDs, and Huton is a 70 second buff so I wont consider that as part of you regular rotation.

the combos have positional stipulations which give potency benefits if you are at the correct position flank/rear

Does wording really matter? If you are to play the class correctly you have to be at the right position, in order to get the damage bonus, buff and debuff to register.

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Originally Posted by ZodiacSoldier

Yea but Leg Sweep is also off GCD and also 20 sec timer, and Kassatsu has a 2 Min CD.

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That was my point leg sweep is offGCD,doesn't interrupt your rotation, and you can slot it in between any 2 skills of your rotation. Mudras/ninjutsu have their own set of GCDs(.5s) which can't be interrupted by any of the other GCD(~2s) skills.

And despite the lengthy duration, Kassatsu makes mudra/ninjutsu more regularly used in rotation than any 20s CD skill.

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Originally Posted by ZodiacSoldier

I play the classes occasionally since I play more PLD to grind Light, and I work full time so haven't gotten Ninja to 50 yet only about 44.

you use Suiton, Huton, and Raiton regularly for single target.

Its true you will use all 3 abilities, but realistically you will only use Raiton as part of your combo, Suiton like i said you will only use when Trick/Sneak are up and those I consider CDs, and Huton is a 70 second buff so I wont consider that as part of you regular rotation.

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The Ninjutsu Rotation goes Huton - Suiton - Raiton (repeat). You will use Suiton every 3rd ninjutsu provided you are optimizing your DPS assuming Kassatsu isn't up. Each of those are a regular part of your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

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And Remember what I said on my second post I think.

"I'm not saying the Ninja is easier to play, I'm just saying that people are under the misconception that they are harder to play because they are a new class. Once you play it more, it will probably come as second nature. And there aren't enough 50 Ninja yet so I can't say how their DPS compare to other classes."

Its true that Ninja will seem harder to play than MNK and DRG right now, because it hasn't even been a week yet and MNK/DRG has been out for over a year already (not including 1.0). But honestly did you think MNK/DRG were easy to play optimally when you first started it? You have to really play it for like a month or so, then I'm sure you will think that its about the same as MNK/DRG.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The Ninjutsu Rotation goes Huton - Suiton - Raiton (repeat). You will use Suiton every 3rd ninjutsu provided you are optimizing your DPS assuming Kassatsu isn't up. Each of those are a regular part of your rotation.

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Ah this is true, since you will rotate these 3 since Huton is 70 seconds, but will have to refresh it 10 secs early and Sneak/Trick attack is on 60 Seconds CD. And since Ninjutsu is on a 20 sec GCD, you will rotate the three.

But like i said i dont have Ninja Max yet, so I havent really tried to optimize their rotation yet, Mindlessly Fate Zerging right now... Fun.

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Originally Posted by ZodiacSoldier

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Every class is easy once you've mastered it, that being said the difficulty of Monk/Dragoon are 1 dimensional because there are one set of intangibles that one needs to worry about when moving onto my next step in rotation

For example on Monk, some of the intangibles that go into the consideration of our next skill in rotation are.

Time left on DK
Time left on Demolish
Time left on ToD

However on Ninja we're taking into consideration both Ninjutsu and regular GCDs, for example.

Time left on Mutilate
Time left on Dancing Edge
Time left on SHadow Fang
Time left to use Suiton
Which ninjutsu to use after Kassatsu
Time left to use Huton
and so on.

Its 2-D because you have both a regular skill rotation and ninjutsu rotation to take into consideration when advancing in rotation.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...oday_with_the/

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Originally Posted by ZodiacSoldier

Its true you will use all 3 abilities, but realistically you will only use Raiton as part of your combo, Suiton like i said you will only use when Trick/Sneak are up and those I consider CDs, and Huton is a 70 second buff so I wont consider that as part of you regular rotation.

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You're wrong.

With Ninjutsu, you're going through abilities in order, going Hoton, Suiton, Raiton, rinse, repeat. You're not using Raiton and occasionally something else, you're going Ability 1, Ability 2, Ability 3, Ability 1, Ability 2, Ability 3.

hmmmm really interesting.

the jobs is definitivly asking more skill than it seems at first sight. since, even without position, you need to always think at 2 cycle coexisting together, people can say, yes but you can have a big cycle, that true, but... how work ninjutsu make it harder to master it

since we don't simply click on one button for do our jutsu, but doing a combinaison inside the combo. i think people that will master this class will be impressive, the other will look less powerfull.

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Originally Posted by Noxotic

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...oday_with_the/

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Stupid impressive. I think that is second only to a mnk doing like 530 or 540 on a dummy.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Stupid impressive. I think that is second only to a mnk doing like 530 or 540 on a dummy.

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That video makes me wonder why drg exists now. :<

Why, the guy had party buff up and what not. Drgs have done 470 without buffs on a dummy mnks are at like 490. It's not a huge difference per say and a good drg is still a monster.

There is just one more beast on the block now. Trio of awsome, mnk, drg and nin.

Some people think nins damage should be low, but if it was, no one would really want to play it over mnk and drg.