uh, how do I participate this? Damn I overworked lately, only got 2 hours or so to play.....Quote:
Originally Posted by MrKupo
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08-05-2011, 01:13 PMAion
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08-05-2011, 01:23 PMMuruganNo what WoW did was make solo generic questing the most efficient by far means of leveling a character. No MMO previously had done this, other MMO's since have. This makes them WoW clones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raim
This is what Neptune, Tonymontana, Gifforce, and several others want the game to be. A similar WoW clone. What they don't realize is that the vast majority of people do not enjoy leveling at all in WoW clones. They only tolerate questing because it is the fastest way of leveling. This type of questing can exist, but to have it exist on the level of WoW kills the possibility of grouping, something many people enjoy.
The Dev teams want people to be able to play their own way, stop trying to constrain us all to your WoW-type leveling system. The best that can be said about that type of gameplay is "at least it didn't take long". Well for once you people are right this is not FFXI, which means the leveling curve is no where near what XI's was. Stop complaining, you can still overall level just fine soloing and they have acknowledged problems with the current rewards at certain levels. You don't need to kill the game for people who enjoy grouping. -
08-05-2011, 01:27 PMTsukinoProgression through the game (leveling) by way of a large number of solo quests based on a few archetypes is exactly what WoW brought to the MMO world, and that is what the OP is suggesting FFXIV do now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raim
Quests existed before but were used differently in other games at the time. Dungeons and raids are entirely irrelevant and no one even mentioned them but you, because you're trying to paint everyone who doesn't want solo, quest-based progression as a blind WoW hater. -
08-05-2011, 01:49 PMPyrix
Neptune's a troll and a dick with a shitty game idea in a forum post in his signature. Just ignore him.
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08-05-2011, 02:01 PMRaimI just don't see whats wrong with having that as an option, even if its not the most viable leveling option. However, after the patch its nigh impossible to solo under any conditions, despite that being the direction that the developers said they would allow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino
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08-05-2011, 02:04 PMXatshI disagree, I have people who do all their leves and do quest and get several levels outside events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raim
It is not optimal by any stretch... but it is still very doable. -
08-05-2011, 02:05 PMWolfie
Man, I really wish people would stop saying that grind parties promote skillful play. There was nothing demanding about FFXI's grind parties. All you needed was the right items, right job, and following a guide someone posted on Campistarus. All of the mobs picked for grinding were the least dangerous mobs, in the least dangerous camps. TP skills were spammed at will, few people used utility/enfeeble spells, and people stocked up on bard, red mages, and other buffing classes so that they wouldn't have to deal with MP management and whatever.
People had that s*** down to a science. Ironically, the only time leveling in FFXI demanded skill was when you were playing one of the solo classes. -
08-05-2011, 02:11 PMCharismaticYes, it's also 'doable' to get there by solo killing enemies several ranks below you for some of the worst SP/hr you've ever experienced. Let's not be stupid on purpose. When people make a statement like the one you quoted, Xatsh, you should read between the lines a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
It's possible to get to 50 solo on leves alone now but you make very little progress doing so especially in the rank 15-30 stretch. SE does seem to have noted that their SP values in the 20-30 range are all sorts of borked so at least that much may change in the future but as of now it's... well, very bad.
Group grinding BY FAR OUTWEIGHS EVERY SINGLE OTHER LEVELING OPTION CURRENTLY AVAILABLE OTHER THAN IT. That's what people have an issue with. It's not like these guys are asking that solo questing be made better than SP grinding, just that it be close enough that you don't feel like you're wasting your time. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever why anyone would be against that.
Well, I can think of one reason but I hope it doesn't apply here and that it's "I got mine, screw you" and that attitude was very prevalent in the FFXI community beyond 2007 or so and most of the people who seem to be against evening things out appear to be former FFXI players. Now, common sense would tell me that's pretty much what it is but I'd like to think at least some of you are better than that. -
08-05-2011, 02:35 PMCichyNot many things in XI involved skill in general. Almost ever fight was tank and spank, kite, or melee burn. All came down to paying attention. Like you said soloing was one of the things that required something extra. That and properly playing an endgame whitemage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
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08-05-2011, 02:50 PMTsukinoI just came back to the game about a week ago after leaving around the time the forums opened. So far I went from 26 to 34 on THM, and most of it was done solo. I joined one grind party that got me about a rank and a quarter, and ran Toto-Rak a couple times but didn't really get much out of it already being over 30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charismatic
It's more than possible, much more than soloing in FFXI ever was. The balance seems fine right now, as solo progress is possible but group progress is demonstrably better which encourages it. If solo got just as much as partying, there wouldn't be enough people to form parties at all, because putting them together, going to a camp, and learning how to work together takes time. Solo is for jumping in the game for a couple hours and being able to make progress, while group play is for people who have several hours and can turn that into something more efficient.
If I can get a rank a day solo that puts me at the current cap in less than two months, which honestly isn't much slower than WoW and many other games. I think people just got used to the leve-sharing exploit and now expect to still get as much SP by soloing leves.
Granted, once they raise the cap significantly or possibly when they add jobs (depending on how progression for them works), the whole thing should probably be sped up so it doesn't take forever to reach that cap, but there should still be a gap between soloing and partying or partying won't happen at all. -
08-05-2011, 02:57 PMCharismatic
A rank a day solo? I'm calling BS on that unless you're putting in some serious time killing those mobs for 100~150 sp a pop. (either that or killing enemies significantly higher rank than you and having to blow a good chunk of MP to do it) Around r25 a leve didn't even get me 5% so don't even try to tell me you got it all doing those.
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08-05-2011, 03:03 PMTsukinoI did all eight leves each reset for the most part. I also did all the new quests, but those are hardly efficient so I'm not sure if that matters much either way. All I know is I gained eight ranks in seven days, and only 1.5-2 of them came from party activity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charismatic
However, I do notice you're showing as rank 23, and the most recent producer letter DID say that gains are broken for 20-30. Since I started at 26, I've only been doing rank 30 leves, which are much better. That may account for some of the discrepancy. -
08-05-2011, 03:34 PMChainThank you for saying what needed to be said. Very little "skill" is needed in XIV as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cichy
Generally anyone that claims it did was probably from those late 2007 linkshells that decided lolzerging everything in the game with 10 kraken drks and warriors was strategy. So ironic =p -
08-05-2011, 03:51 PMelreed
we need a harder game, not a pansy ass game that give reward that easily, i played FFXI and WoW and i can tell you this i missed the final fantasy feeling and i got it back with this dungeons, i havent even cleared all the way the rank 45+ dungeon yet and i dont have all the new gear yet.
I like that, when i killed the ogre with my linkshell mates for the first time i felt awesome like i had accomplish something, dont try to convince people that is better doing easy solo grinding where you get to have 30k sp for doing nothing, oh yeah go kill those wolves, 2 mins after finishing quest and getting alot of reward just for doing nothing.
If you want to know whats a real quest in an MMO go check artifact armor quest from FFXI those were really hard to get or Chains of Promatia quest, thats the type of quest we should aim for, and after watching those i know you will agree with me. -
08-05-2011, 04:07 PMIchi
So if 18 people like your post about how SE is failing and is doomed to burn out quietly because you claim to know the inclinations of "today's market" and ultimately the fate of games that don't do what the others do you become King poop. Personally I don't buy it and im betting neither do most. Stop misrepresenting your opinions.
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08-05-2011, 04:25 PMoptions
What the hell is wrong with quests? I for one play jrpgs for their stories (even the bad ones). Whats wrong with starting off in a zone, starting with a story on why i'm there and giving me a fun ff story doing things within the zone leading up to a big bad arse boss or dungeon at the end of the zone, then leading me into the next area. Throw in the grind in the middle of it. Hell, throw in grp grinds. But give me a f'ing story. The ff sp games do this, why the hell can't it be here?
Thats right..... ffxi didn't do it. -
08-05-2011, 04:38 PMTsukinoYou have got to be kidding me. FFXI has multiple massive main story quests with cutscenes. Together they're longer than any single player game in the series. One of the big draws of the game in its heyday was that it was one of the very few MMOs with a compelling storyline, and for a time the only one with in-game cutscene action. One entire expansion of the game essentially added nothing but story quests and dungeons to contain them, where you had to fight to the end and solve puzzles in a group, then fight a huge dangerous boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by options
No one is saying no to quests or story. I even would like them to award SP (which they currently do, in massive amounts). People are saying no to solo quest-based progression being the most efficient way to advance in the game. You know what else was common to all single-player FF games? One character didn't fight through dungeons and destroy forces of evil threatening to unmake the world on his or her own. -
08-05-2011, 04:41 PMMuruganYeah no one is against quests. However quests have been watered down so much in modern MMO's that I really think they are undeserving of the term. Repetitive task is more descriptive to what they have become.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino
FFXI did quests right, I don't mind that they give XP now but designing them as the primary (only) source of leveling in a system where people can level 7 jobs to 50 on one character invites those types of lackluster "kill 5 rats for no particular good reason" quests that we already have covered quite well with guildleves. -
08-05-2011, 04:45 PMJynxNot sure if serious...Quote:
Originally Posted by options
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08-05-2011, 04:49 PMmysterytaruSounds like MMO is the wrong genre for you....also: XI *did* do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by options
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08-05-2011, 04:52 PMZkieveif you are getting 100-150 a pop you are doing it wrong.Been repeating myself over and over so dont bother asking me how.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charismatic
Also leves rank 30 are broken. -
08-05-2011, 04:54 PMPyrixWhite mages forever! I still kinda miss my little dude Pyrix :3Quote:
Originally Posted by Cichy
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08-05-2011, 05:14 PMoptionsSounds like your idea of an MMO is not the genre for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterytaru
FFXI had cutscenes and they were done wonderfully. But you didn't progress through the zones doing those quests. There were no stories to the zones, you just moved there and camped the 1 spot till you moved to the next zone.
What i am saying is give us a story on why we are there. Right now we get a cutscene and for no other purpose then to lvl our char so we can get another cutscene. There's no meaning behind it at all. Why do we need to run to lvl 50 when their could be a journey reaching every lvl. -
08-05-2011, 05:19 PMDarthTaru
Well... I don't really think it's the grind system that's so horrible. I think it's this grind system that's horrible. I suspect the roaming party is to blame but i'm not positive. Something just seems out of place.
Take a one player game like... Mass Effect II. I can run around killing enemies all night and enjoy myself, so why do I despise doing it in FFXIV? In XI I could grind for hours before needing to call it. In XIV I feel pretty much over it after the first ten minutes.
A few days ago I grinded 180K SP on Raptors in about 4 hours. Maybe 4 and a half. I was surprised I didn't want to hang myself but I really wanted to finish the job. Admittedly, it wasn't AS bad without surplus hanging over me like a dark cloud, but it wasn't exactly enjoyable, either.
One of the points that's come up is the community benefiting from XP parties. I agree that it benefited greatly in XI from grind parties but in XI you were camped. You could socialize and lul it up in between pulls. In XI you could socialize and lul it up while fighting because the chat window didn't wipe your text for every possible reason.
XP parties are just too taxing in XIV to be enjoyable and / or a time for socializing.
Everyone is in voice-chat because communicating ingame is too janky.
I don't know... I don't want to see people getting 30,000 SP just for completing a quest but I don't want to want to claw my eyes out to get 10K on raptor parties, either.
I think camped parties over roaming ones would go a long way in making this less brutal. I took some time off leading up to 1.18 and missed my leve runs and now have 2 jobs still in the mid 30's and i'm not in any way looking forward to bringing them to 50 via raptor roams.... -
08-05-2011, 05:22 PMmysterytaruThe beginning of XI's original storyline for the 3 nations had little to do with how it turned out either until you were high enough to do them or had friends high enough to do them for you. It wasn't until the R3 and R4 missions that things started to get somewhere. That's comparable to the storyline missions in XIV that you get at R26 and R30, respectively. I just finished the R30 one and can't wait to see the next one. You can't comment on the story as early in it as you are based on your Ranks in your profile. You've just seen the 'go do this and keep busy til we think you're rdy for the real deal' missions.Quote:
Originally Posted by options
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08-05-2011, 05:38 PMTsukinoI agree with this. One of the things that made partying in XI fun was, like you say, that you could socialize during the whole thing a bit. In fact, it's one of the reasons I didn't like "TP burn" merit parties later on in the game's time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthTaru
But it does seem like they might get a little better. Auto-attack has freed up a lot of button mashing already, and the development team has said that they'd like fights to take longer, around 40 seconds apiece, in the future. That could mean the ability to camp instead of moving around because you've already cleared the area.
I'd also expect that if partying for SP does take off, they will need to make other adjustments to mob density and such, but that's pure speculation. -
08-05-2011, 06:31 PMLyndisI thought this post was amazing. Really captures my thoughts on the whole FFXIV sequel to FFXI argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino
What we don't want is a game like every other game that's being developed right now. They're all copying the same formula (successful, yes, but there are enough of these already). We need a modern reinvention of the spirit of what FFXI was. That doesn't necessarily mean copying game mechanics.
Also, they do have other ways to rank up than just grind parties. Which is great! I would like to see behest tweaked a little though, that was an interesting alternative way to level.
This is what the possibilities I've seen or would like to see.
Grind parties - Requiring planning and then a repetitive grind based off your your class role. Exp dependent on planning.
Leves - Spike Exp you can occasionally do, tells you where to go and what to do and possible solo.
Behest - Slow Exp, mass group formed on the fly, little attention necessary.
Quests - Spike Exp that is not repeatable, offers lore and many other options.
Should probably require more than one of these above options to attain rank fifty. -
08-05-2011, 07:12 PMGalka75
This is my opinion about ths matter:
The fact of rising thr sp rewards is not bad. But this will be an old school base MMO. And a grind party ALWAYS will beat any other method of ranking/level up. At the moments leves are ok becouse can make a good sp/hour compared whit grind partys. Meaby a little more of quest. Or adjust its sp reward will nit bad for ROLplayers and casual. Will lovely to see all kind of players meetng in a game. Casuals (not mindless wowtards, just casual but good players)doing leves and raids once or twice a week, rol players doing quest and focusing in the comunity, and of course hardcores doing it all a lot and grinding to reach fast all content. -
08-05-2011, 07:29 PMzaviermhigo
Party grinding isn't about killing the same mob over and over again in the same place, its about learning the class you're playing, and learning strategies to do with others. If fostering better relationships with other players becomes boring to people then why even play an mmo?
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08-05-2011, 07:58 PMChainWell part of the reason are the drab battle animations. (hopefully 1.9 will add more revisions of these)Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthTaru
I don't know how it is for ranged, but the mob pathing makes it just... frustrating for melee. I've seen mobs just randomly run back to their spot, stay claimed and just hitting us from range with no way to pull it back without grabbing 3 adds. -
08-05-2011, 08:47 PMXooZQ^ 100% That.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forerunner
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08-05-2011, 09:49 PMForerunnerLogic, on these forums? From someone whose account only displays them as being r20? Impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
Also, thats going in my sig. -
08-05-2011, 10:27 PMViolentDjangoThis entire argument is asinine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukino
One. They've already said that they feel leveling in an MMO should take longer than it does in an offline game, which is indicative of the fact that you'll NEVER be getting 30,000 SP from a single quest. Which is good.
Two. All MMOs have a learning curve -- you have to learn how to deal with the lag between the interface and your internet connection and understand how that translates into timing and actions in a party setting. That is something you learn to feel out through time -- steamrolling through to Rank 50 won't teach you that. That's why grinding is a good thing, just like in FFXI, FFXIV is shaping into a game where timing and watching for cues are a vital element of effective play and you can't reasonably expect someone to learn all of that if they can hop to max level in a week.
Three. From a game design point of view, learning when and where to use an ability is a subtle part of a learning curve that people disregard. When you're given a new ability, your tendency is to use it over other abilities, but as you encounter new situations with each ability your understanding of how they correlate to preexisting abilities expands. This is an important thing to consider when you're trying to determine how fast someone should level, because each decrease in time equals a decrease in opportunities to learn the outer rim subtleties of strategy and the nuances of your job.
I'm not against leveling up through Quests, I just feel that party SP/EXP should ALWAYS be better, because the cornerstone of the game and your development as a player in an MMO is the community. Like it or not, FFXI's EXP grinding system fostered a much more connected community than its current level 30~>90 in 5 hour leveling system does. Suffering, for lack of better phrasing, brings people together and that togetherness improves the quality of team activities and effectiveness in End Game.
If not for the grind system in FFXI, Ninja would have never become a tank, for example, and a lot of other crucial abilities for end game would have taken significantly longer to surface.
You can rant and rave about grinding being bad, but there are definite, notable benefits to it as well. And there are plenty of people complaining about "running around" for EXP/SP. There's no reason doing 15 minutes of quests should yield you more EXP than 2 hours of grinding, and there's no reason people who invest time into building balanced parties (Which will likely be required for EXP/SP chains to work efficiently) to get less EXP/SP for their effort than people who run around solo. Making solo EXP/SP more efficient than party EXP/SP just separates people out and disconnects people from the community. 80% of the most renown linkshells in FFXI were very likely full of people who met each other during grind parties (outside of people who knew each other irl), because it was an opportunity to scout someone's abilities and understanding of the game. Who's going to party if you can make double or triple the progress solo?
That aside, its simple logic, one man building a house will always take longer than 2 men, and 4 men will always be twice as fast as that. Grind Parties should get more EXP/SP -- purely out of the amount of effort it takes to organize a balanced one. They should just have to fight higher level monsters for that EXP/SP. -
08-05-2011, 10:30 PMFelis"Go there, kill 2 wolves, go back and get 38k Sp" isn't enought? (R42 story mission)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekko
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08-06-2011, 12:13 AMSniperRifle
Grinding on the same monster quick and efficiently for the best sp/hr was repetative like a game of hockey. Don't eat til the group is done or if party agrees to take a break. It's not completely mindless, but most people were so well practiced at it that it just appeared to be mindless. Where as had someone who had never played FFXI or a similar class role before would have noooo idea what to do during a grind party in 11. This is where skill came in... Those who lacked in skill hurt the parties overall sp/hr. Dat's whurr teh replay valuez at!! It worked VERY WELL in 11, but the most apparent problem in 11 was not the leveling curve, but the time spent waiting for parties. NOT SAYING I HAD PROBLEMS, but everyone is different, and it seems everyone who tried 11 and didn't like it was fed up w/ logging on and waiting 2-3 hours to party for 1.
There were other problems w/ 11 but they are irrelevant since the game succeeds still today...
I know what OP is trying to say, we shouldn't mimic 11 because nostalgia won't make an MMO survive (in this case 14)... But idk if grinding is the problem either. Doesn't matter what is put into a game; quests, grinding, HNMs, BCNMs, raids, heroics, PVP, whatever it may be. So long as it's fun and scales well (aka, people are still getting better and having fun and noticing positive progress after copious amounts of time spent playing the game), everything else doesn't matter.
As we've seen in 11, PVP can suck balls. But it was fun in WoW? Grinding was fun in 11? But sucked (mediocre at best) in WoW? And I know noooooooooooooo one is going to say PVP in 11 was fun. PVP? Yea it's that thing you do when you play multiplayer FPS. Games LIVE off PVP, games like CS Source. It all just depends on 2 things I listed above (fun and scaling)... How to execute this? Only a game designer would know.
But if an entire game can live off it's PVP factor why not just use the same amount of mechanics to create an equally skillful/well balanced PVP system, as just an ASPECT of a game... Instead of throwing in some horse crap PVP system for the sake of saying, "PVP HAS ARRIVED!". Do the same w/ end game, leveling, storyline, zones, economy, UI, character customization.
Then, people will gladly not only pay money for your game monthly, but people will stop playing other games permanently, just to play your game... Not just the diehard fans. -
08-06-2011, 12:37 AMWolfieBringing up FFXI again, but sorry, nothing in FFXI's party grind taught me how to be a good player.Quote:
Originally Posted by zaviermhigo
As a BLM, the only spells I ever cast were Blizzard and Thunder, and it was on magic bursts. I had no reason to cast enfeebling spells, the only food I used was INT food (marron glace was it?), and I only ever sat in one spot at the back of the party waiting for people to bring mobs to me. Enfeebling and everything else was brought by the red mages, white mages, bards, whatever. Didn't have to deal with MP or hate management because things died fast and couldn't kill me anyways. It wasn't until I was already at end game that I was forced to learn the intricacies of BLM, like kiting, proper enfeebling, using different spell elements, cookies vs MP food, full out gear swaps, hate management, etc.
There was never any real challenge thrown at people while leveling in FFXI. Grinds of any kind are always, always reduced to the easiest and fastest ways to do something. It's the complete opposite of challenge, sprinkled with a lot of tedium. -
08-06-2011, 12:44 AMViolentDjangoAs time progressed, the elements of learning curve for FFXI were slowly phased out due to popular demand. Skill chains and magic bursts were a big deal in the beginning, SE just never kept their damage and effect high enough for them to be practical as the game progressed. That's why BLM fell out to the wayside to begin with -- Melees effectiveness and the general ability of more and more classes to Self-skill chain outran the inefficiencies of resting MP. If MP recovered as quickly in FFXI as it does in FFXIV, there SE could have redesigned the system to allow more functionality and skill to be learned by BLMs, but it just didn't work out that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
Meanwhile, one important thing grinding DID teach was MP awareness and moderation. It wasn't an easy thing to keep your MP and DPS up if you didn't know what you were doing, and early on, it was easy to note a good mage from a bad one purely based on how their MP looked after a 4+ chain.
SE just made a lot of mistakes and phased out most of the important elements of the game in favor of making melees arguably too strong and independent.
You never learned end game as you progressed through levels grinding -- its like high school.
You never learn how to do your job in high school/grinding, you learn the nuances and key elements of getting things done while dealing with people you may or may not like -- which ultimately helps you be more effective and valuable when you finally start learning the specifics of what you'll be doing for the rest of your career (i.e. in endgame/college).
You learn to be familiar with elements of what you need to do in a group, as well as the intimate details of your own abilities and skills and how to apply them in a group setting. That's an important thing, especially if they're going to push for a more skill-oriented play mechanic. Abyssea is a perfect example of how annoying the community gets when it has to teach people how to do things on the fly -- I don't how much needless passive aggression I got when I first got back and started trying Abyssea, we really don't need that kind of counter productive behavior in the late game content in FFXIV.
On the issue of waiting for parties -- learning to build and manage long-term parties is a valuable tool for any leader to develop. I don't know how many Abyssea (FFXI and Abyssea coming up because they are relevant examples from a similar game many of us have experience with) leaders I've run into who have no idea how to manage a group and constantly complain when people leave after 2 hours like 2 hours isn't a considerable time investment (sorry, but in the real world, it is.) A large amount of the issue with waiting for parties was people not being willing to actually invest in building one -- I managed to get Puppetmaster to 75, pre Abyssea, in less than a month and anyone can tell you that PUP is probably the last job anyone would invite.
Countless times, I've had to save parties by using the management skills I learned building my own PTs for Puppetmaster to get alliances back to 18 members after leads fail to properly appeal to and invite additional members. I can think of several instances where people said yes to mind invites immediately after saying no to our alliance leaders', just because I did it more politely.
One last thing:
Grinding tends to reduce things down to being incredibly simple because it focuses skill sets. EVERYTHING, even bosses, is easy when you focus skills into the right place. If it isn't, then it is typically designed against specific skill sets/play styles, and is likely ridiculously difficult without a painstakingly honed strategy and set up, which isn't the kind of thing you want in an MMO that doesn't foster group cohesion. -
08-06-2011, 12:47 AMVerecundSadly, World of Warcraft and other MMOs/games did this little bit about a thousand times better with a feature called 'PvP'. (and to a somewhat lesser but still-apparent extent with "dungeons" and "raids")Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentDjango
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08-06-2011, 12:49 AMBetelgeuzah
The future is finally here!
Just kidding. -
08-06-2011, 01:42 AMSypherblade
hate to bring up wow....but take its dungeon finder utility. U put if ur a DD, tank, healer then get grouped up with people and run an instance....fun right? until it gets too easy...then its boring....this is where wow fails.
soooooOoOooo.....
do the dungeon finder....make a crap load of instances.....group ppl up really fast...but make the instances challenging each time and random it up a little bit...so its just like "grinding" and there is "story" and there is "strategy"
take FFXI's besieged! one of the best things i loved about FFXI! Just make it instanced instead of everyone and their mama joins in and the whole zone turns into lag city! ppl loved besiged. ppl got pumped for besieged at one point in their FFXI lifetimes. It was "random" big bosses that showed up...and ppl be in the shouts "Like oh #$#$# its that guy! we are all ##$#" or "Oh we got off easy! its just this guy! woo hoo!" people worked together and got butchered...it was fun.
SO make leveling kinda like this. Get ppl together fast...so casuals and hardcore can level up at the same speed per hour... just hardcores get more hours to invest...Its repeatable so u can grind the hell out of it...but its not "lets find the easist mobs in the game and kill them over and over and over..." instead its a variety of mobs that get thrown at you...some are cake...some are not....some poison you...some do burst damage...some have insane DEFENSE that you have to tear into...VARIETY VARIETY VARITY!! not...easy button!!! lets kill little pink birdies that turn into poofs of pixie dust when they die!
Am i way outta line here?