Goodbye cleric stance.. you will be sorely missed

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Originally Posted by Lycinder

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You can type your long reply then select the entire thing and copy it - type a post with 10 letters like (I am editing this post) and reply to the thread, then edit your post and paste the long reply.

This helps you avoid the word limit without taking up more than one space.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

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Kind of going around in circles/ your ignoring the counterclaims to your points.
Problem with Scholars are they are great in pvp thanks to the rotation and adaptability granted by cleric stance, so losing that hits them really really hard, I understand you don't play scholar in pvp but trust me its a real game changer this update.
The sheer amount of time it take to run away from an encounter from a dps since they can just put heavy back on you when you mount back up (If you sprint they sprint, a good dps can sprint and time a tp recovery quite well from my experience in 1 v 1, tricky little things I know) I actually only ever engaged in 1 v 1 to scare off the guy bothering me, I rarely got a kill but just running away is slower than scaring them off with dps mixed with healing rotation (If it was a scholar bets were generally off.)

A lot of your "Problem fixed" does not help a scholar in any way.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

You can type your long reply then select the entire thing and copy it - type a post with 10 letters like (I am editing this post) and reply to the thread, then edit your post and paste the long reply.

This helps you avoid the word limit without taking up more than one space.

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Thanks for the info bud

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

I can count on one hand how many times I've been able to swap to Cleric Stance in FL.

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Hahahahaha, and Yoshida is listening that kind of players, hahahahahahahaha, oh god, that patch is trash as hell, I'm done with Frontlines as Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Lycinder

Random words. Talks about Aldo and can't figure out what skill is a bind.

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Aldo's better, of course. I still listed Stoneskin simply to list it for WHM's if I'm thinking about the correct post of mine. Your bind is Blizzard II.

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Originally Posted by Lycinder

We fight on the flag because otherwise a lot of stuff becomes useless to us, and it is actually HARDER to target someone in the fray if they are with their group, someone could just look on the sidelines and see a white mage standing out in the open asking to be hit.
One of the ways to effectively capture the flag is to run in with the group and aura blast, you need 4 people to capture so its just better to pile in.
Why am I arguing with someone with what should really be (and from what I have observed is) a common strategy in frontlines...

Also I said calm down because your responses were getting aggressive and you were putting people down, so yeah... Take a breather calm down.

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And as I said before. You're putting yourself at risk of getting killed or CC'd because you're playing a backline class, as a frontline. Not only that, you're going to have to spend your resources keeping yourself alive, instead of another person who's doing more CC and damage than you can. It's ineffective to do this most of the time. By staying back as a healer, using the Magitek armor at Markets, or LoS'ing the broken walls at Manors, you're forcing those melee that would be stacked on the node to get off of it and kite after you. Doing this at Markets can lead to -1 DPS that comes after you, if you knock them off the edge. The same applies to ranged DPS at Manor. They have to move past the node to get to you, ensuring a quick cap for the rest of your team.

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Originally Posted by FaizeD

I believe the bind they're referring to is Blizz II? Lol okay, that works swell against ranged. Hey BRD, come here so I can lay down dat snare and don't interrupt me.

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Why would you do that? It's a PBAoE Bind. It's used defensively on melee.

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Originally Posted by Utsu

Hahahahaha, and Yoshida is listening that kind of players, hahahahahahahaha, oh god, that patch is trash as hell, I'm done with Frontlines as Scholar.

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I know. Call me a bad healer because I choose to heal over DPS'ing. QQ, roll a DumbPS now, pl0x.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

Aldo's better, of course. I still listed Stoneskin simply to list it for WHM's if I'm thinking about the correct post of mine. Your bind is Blizzard II.

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You were specifically telling me my damage mitigation as scholar,also Blizz II is still incredibly situational.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

And as I said before. You're putting yourself at risk of getting killed or CC'd because you're playing a backline class, as a frontline. Not only that, you're going to have to spend your resources keeping yourself alive, instead of another person who's doing more CC and damage than you can. It's ineffective to do this most of the time. By staying back as a healer, using the Magitek armor at Markets, or LoS'ing the broken walls at Manors, you're forcing those melee that would be stacked on the node to get off of it and kite after you. Doing this at Markets can lead to -1 DPS that comes after you, if you knock them off the edge. The same applies to ranged DPS at Manor. They have to move past the node to get to you, ensuring a quick cap for the rest of your team.

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Right I'm just going to repeat myself, please note I am mainly talking about FLAGS
Stacking up with the dps and rest of the group on the flag is better because -
1.Succor
2.Eos works better overall bunched with everyon (I place Eos before I jump in anyway)
3.MIASMA FREAKING II omg I love doing that, heal debuff on anyone near me, always worth risking life to drop.
4.Its like finding a needle in haystack looking for a healer in a flag mosh pit, I catch healers hanging around outside all the time and just mark them piece of cake.
5.I have done this so often and I am still generally the last healer to go or even to get hurt with any reasonable damage my eos can't fix, the whm on the sideline is always the first to get nuked down and I am not really using any non aoe resources to keep myself alive.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

I know. Call me a bad healer because I choose to heal over DPS'ing. QQ, roll a DumbPS now, pl0x.

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A good healer can dps and clock out the same efficacy of healing, don't say we aren't doing our jobs because we are and we are multitasking.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

Why would you do that? It's a PBAoE Bind. It's used defensively on melee.

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I'm aware. So..

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

Bard roaming? Snare, Leech, and just sprint away.

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What "snare" exactly are you referring to here? Because SCHs have none. Not that Blizz II is particular effective against melee either.

As someone who has played WHM in Frontlines extensively, I'd like to offer my view on why I feel the removal of Cleric Stance was a bad design choice.

Without a doubt, this is not a 'game-breaking nerf' or anything of the sort. It does make 1v1 engagements more annoying and pointless, but that's not the key issue I have with this decision.

Over the many Frontlines battles over nodes I've seen, battles either tend to be overwhelmingly one-sided, or long-drawn stalemates that are broken by 1) arrival of a second team or 2) a caster limit-break. This is an issue with the burst nature of damage and healing in this game, but I won't go into that here.

I played a White Mage because while I was, indeed, focused on healing my teammates, Cleric Stance Holy gave me the potential to break those stalemates. Queuing with one or two friends who played Black Mages, I was capable of keeping them alive and coordinating cooldowns for a hopefully decisive burst.

Yes, if you want to do damage, you should play a DPS class. And yes, White Mages that do nothing but Cleric Stance Holy are terrible.

But what Cleric Stance offers, like in PvE, is the ability and opportunity to take calculated risks in an attempt to break out of stalemate. Do I switch over to Holy now and risk my party members being taken out? Are our enemies currently immune to Stun? Should I risk using Equanimity, or save it for later? Do I have enough mana for a short burst of Holying? These are questions I get to ask myself on top of anything healing related.

Ostensibly, this nerf was to reduce the effectiveness of healer-heavy teams. But the removal of Cleric Stance feels like a woefully lazy fix to the problem. There are other ways to capture a node that go beyond just damage. I once fought a close battle on a point which changed hands multiple times. Yet, beyond caster limit-break, no one on either team died for those 7-8 minutes. It was just 16 people cycling through push-out skills like Aura Blast and Mythril Tempest. So, this won't necessarily reduce the effectiveness of healer-heavy teams. You might just be stuck with Succor-spamming Scholar bots.

TL;DR: I don't play White Mage to be a damage dealer. I play White Mage to heal. But healing alone in long stalemates feels extremely unrewarding. Cleric Stance offers player choice, and while taking that away does not break the class, it does little to solve the problem, while making healing a lot less fun.

@Copestetic
Please stop assuming that we all want to be tards and 1v1. Sometimes it's forced on you. Everyone left and the cap without a defender? yea someone's gonna have to stay and hold off those annoying ninja (if they are a dps, what are you gonna do? stand there and let them hit you forever?). Your team is in 2nd place and 100 points behind 1st place and you're the only person closest to 1st place's OP and they have 1 defender? You gonna have to fight your ass for that cap so your team can win. It's got nothing to do with 1v1 e-pen0r stroking. With this fix, all of that possibilities is gone. You are reduced to nothing more than a walking training dummy that can heal and cc.

Secondly, if they want to shoehorn WHM and SCH into healer ONLY then why don't they do the same thing to Warrior and Paladin? NOPE. They just put on str accessories, spec str, sword oath, defiance on/off and go to town with the DPS. Is that what TANKING is? I don't see a tank provoking those DPS off me while I'm getting chased. They are at best a less efficient DPS with good harassing skills in the current meta.

Lastly, if you condone this nerf. Look at it like this. They are removing a core ability from healer arsenal in frontline. No public testing whatsoever. No concrete reasoning to make us, the players, understand the devs either. It all smell like lazy to me. Trust me, I'm all fine with healer's HEALING getting nerfed in frontline because that was the major issue with class stacking and sch being solo master. If they want us to dps less, then make us heal more out of *necessity* not out of *I don't have anything else to do while my party's hp full with medica 2 + regen up*.

Best change ever, SCH is way overpowered...kite, Shield/HOT, DOT target, burn TP and run around obstacles until melee are dead. Happens all the time now, not skill just OP. Cant wait to play Frontlines tonight :)

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Originally Posted by Sonoran

Best change ever, SCH is way overpowered...kite, Shield/HOT, DOT target, burn TP and run around obstacles until melee are dead. Happens all the time now, not skill just OP. Cant wait to play Frontlines tonight :)

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So you are fine with scholars moving from overpowered to almost useless?
You are also fine with the fact that a lot of people are planning on quitting healing in pvp when its already hard to get healers sometimes?
Like seriously there is at least going to be an exodus of Scholars.

Fine, fine. Clearly this thread was made for people who wanted to bitch about the patch and not for those that doesn't think it's the end of the world. I'll back out to let the crying continue.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

Fine, fine. Clearly this thread was made for people who wanted to bitch about the patch and not for those that doesn't think it's the end of the world. I'll back out to let the crying continue.

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Yeah kay. Come back when you've levelled SCH.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

Fine, fine. Clearly this thread was made for people who wanted to bitch about the patch and not for those that doesn't think it's the end of the world. I'll back out to let the crying continue.

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Actually I was just counterclaiming all your statements and blase half understanding of scholars in pvp.
TBH I think you are stepping out because everyone has actually nulled all your arguments and you want to bow out while going "I didn't lose this argument HONEST."

Edit - Sudden realisation - ACTUALLY, we scholars should be DOUBLY pissed about this, our whole job is about mixing dps with healing hence why we spent our first 30 levels as a dps, why would they make more than half our skills useless, did they not think this through?

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Originally Posted by Lycinder

So you are fine with scholars moving from overpowered to almost useless?
You are also fine with the fact that a lot of people are planning on quitting healing in pvp when its already hard to get healers sometimes?
Like seriously there is at least going to be an exodus of Scholars.

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If all 3 sides lose them thats still balanced. Not going to argue with someone who thinks SCH wasnt OP because they are, and yes I play one as well. Kite, Dot, HOT/shield and run....they can kill WAR, PLD, BRD, DRG, MNK with no skill needed. I would rather they make this change then no change at all.

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Originally Posted by Sonoran

If all 3 sides lose them thats still balanced. Not going to argue with someone who thinks SCH wasnt OP because they are, and yes I play one as well. Kite, Dot, HOT/shield and run....they can kill WAR, PLD, BRD, DRG, MNK with no skill needed. I would rather they make this change then no change at all.

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If you read my posts I agree'd that Scholars as they were, were actually op as heck so I was expecting a dps nerf not a dps NUKE, enjoy frontlines without succor and all the other fancy buffs scholars bring to the table because only a masochist will play a scholar pvp as they are now.

As other says I think that it's a lazy solution too.

Probably they did it cause of 7 WHM party, so atleast they shoulded do somewhat like:
"Cleric Stance will be unavailable if there are more than 4 healer in your party"
(And it woulded be lazy anyway in my opinion, but atleast a little more understandable)

So THAT tricky strategy would be nerfed, but not all the healer that were just using well his class.

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Originally Posted by Lycinder

Actually I was just counterclaiming all your statements and blase half understanding of scholars in pvp.
TBH I think you are stepping out because everyone has actually nulled all your arguments and you want to bow out while going "I didn't lose this argument HONEST."

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Think what you want. I could careless. You go right ahead and say how strategically smart it is to 1v1 as a healer when your team's waiting on you. Or that when you are forced into a 1v1, you literally have to stay there and finish it to the end. Or that it's damn-near impossible to pull off an Esuna or Leech when taking fire from one or two people. Or that there's going to be this huge mass exodus of SCH's and WHM's because their DPS had been nerfed out of existence. Doesn't matter to me. lol I'll still be healing in FL until WD gets some love.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

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Do you even read my posts, claiming I 1v1 when I straight out said "I use it to scare away the 1v1'ers" and I even was saying my healing efficacy isn't really changed when I switch between heal to dps, YOU should really be bowing out of this conversation since you don't pay attention AT ALL.

And of course you are fine with this nerf, you've been playing your class as if it was already nerfed so gg I guess? well done at playing half as efficiently.

Edit - Also I said exodus of scholars not white mages, more proof you were not paying attention
You also used mass exodus after I edited my post saying "Mass" in exodus is kind of redundant, not really an insult or comeback or anything since I did it myself but I just found it funny.
Edit edit - No wait you said huge mass exodus, that's just redundant over redundant.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

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Why are you still in this thread if you have nothing constructive to say. If you think we're just whining without a basis then stop bumping this thread and leave us to our discussion.

I think we should actually try brainstorming ways to nerf scholars and WHM premade holy parties without crippling scholar entirely at this point in the thread life since we seem almost done with the - "It cripples us" "No it doesn't" "It so does" malarkey.

I for one while pvp'ing actually was thinking "How are they going to even efficiently nerf this, make our insta casts weaker in pvp, nerf the fairy?" Where I think the main thing might be "Nerf the fairy" really.

Edit - OH WAIT, make Lustrate use high healing potency instead of percent while in pvp...Might need a lot of balancing when off cleric stance but that will definitely make us less op.

Welp. I'm done healing. Possibly done PvPing. Not because this nerf is game-breaking but because it is now clear that SE only listens to idiots who don't understand how to play the game - then change the system based on their terrible input. This does not bode well for the future and I have no desire to invest my time in a game with such a poor and, frankly, lazy outlook on "balance."

Honestly all these people going to say never healing pvp ever, I believe there is going to be a mass exodus, SE realises that the nerf wasn't really what you call "balancing" and give us back our toys before frontlines implodes completely.
I believe it was Yoshi who stated he wanted to work on making pvp frontlines a bigger thing for players and so most likely they will note the issues and fix them, until then I am leveling a dps to 50 to get my pvp rank up.

I know that maybe it could be uneffective, but could we make some suggestion for seriously rebalancing PvP and then make a Request post for SE and try to gather as much Like and post as we can asking ingame pvp interested people to vote it if he/she agree?

I would atleast have a reply form DeV Team.

My fear is that as Healer if I'm solo the only thing that I could do is run as fast as I can, and not trying to maintain anymore the OP.

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Originally Posted by Geologo

I know that maybe it could be uneffective, but could we make some suggestion for seriously rebalancing PvP and then make a Request post for SE and try to gather as much Like and post as we can asking ingame pvp interested people to vote it if he/she agree?

I would atleast have a reply form DeV Team.

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Its our best bet really, this whole situation proved the dev team listens to a vocal part of the player base, might as well do the same thing and get them to look at it again you know fight fire with fire.

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Originally Posted by Geologo

My fear is that as Healer if I'm solo the only thing that I could do is run as fast as I can, and not trying to maintain anymore the OP.

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That sounds almost exactly like the wolves den was, and trust me it isn't fun in anyway whatsoever, I did actually make a point that it seems we were stepping back into the wolves den stratagem again.

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Originally Posted by Lycinder

Honestly all these people going to say never healing pvp ever, I believe there is going to be a mass exodus, SE realises that the nerf wasn't really what you call "balancing" and give us back our toys before frontlines implodes completely.
I believe it was Yoshi who stated he wanted to work on making pvp frontlines a bigger thing for players and so most likely they will note the issues and fix them, until then I am leveling a dps to 50 to get my pvp rank up.

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What it means is that the people who will quit pvp healing never enjoyed healing to begin with but dpsing with the option to heal.

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Originally Posted by Domira

What it means is that the people who will quit pvp healing never enjoyed healing to begin with but dpsing with the option to heal.

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As a scholar our ability to get up close to do heal debuffs and damage over time aoes as well as move over to heals which mitigate damage and that was what allowed us to do what we do.
Scholars have always been about balancing healing and damage in both pvp and pve, we just had half of our skillset made almost useless to us as well as made us a prime target to kill fast.
Basically being a scholar in pvp is really quite useless to us now, I mean we still have those debuffs sure but we ain't going to be getting close enough to make the best of them.

And you truly believe that your role as a healer was to heal and do damage over time? This is would be a imbalance, since the role would be able to perform the functions of a dps role. What this would mean in terms of balance is that scholar wouldn't be a healer class but more so a jack of all trades class. Meaning, they technically should be mediocre at dps and healing, but has access to do both. Obviously they are designed to be a healing class, which is their strength. Not being able to deal high damage is their weakness, without the weakness it will create balance issues.

Never in a pvp game I played was the healers role to do damage and heal. CC? Yes, DPS no.

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Originally Posted by Domira

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Can people who don't play scholar not tell me how my job works, our heals don't heal much, we have no big fancy saving heals and the cool aoe regen we have isn't affected by cleric stance (since its on the fairy)
YES OUR JOB IS TO HEAL AND DO DAMAGE OVER TIME THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE SKILLS, IT'S ALSO WHY WE START AS A DPS CLASS! Our healing is weaker than a goddamn white mage and damage mitigation is something you only need to reapply when its worn off and needed

Yes our dps was overpowered since we had some instant cast damage skills which were incredibly effective, I was totally expecting those to get nerfed or something but not for SE to decide to completely cripple us, seriously the moment one person notices a scholar and starts attacking them we are screwed, we have no white mage escape abilities we are sitting targets who can do nothing, useless.

Edit - Also Bear Shaman from AoC that right there is one DPS Healer class, its more common than you think.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

Scholar's have a Bind

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Name the skill that binds.

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Originally Posted by Tridus1x

Name the skill that binds.

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Blizzard 2

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Originally Posted by Domira

And you truly believe that your role as a healer was to heal and do damage over time? This is would be a imbalance, since the role would be able to perform the functions of a dps role. What this would mean in terms of balance is that scholar wouldn't be a healer class but more so a jack of all trades class. Meaning, they technically should be mediocre at dps and healing, but has access to do both. Obviously they are designed to be a healing class, which is their strength. Not being able to deal high damage is their weakness, without the weakness it will create balance issues.

Never in a pvp game I played was the healers role to do damage and heal. CC? Yes, DPS no.

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How about those marauders? Oh, guess it's okay for them to shelf the whole tanking thing can going full DPS.

How come DPS have healing abilities still? Aren't they only signed up for doing damage? Hrmm....

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Originally Posted by Zerotrocity

Blizzard 2

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I totally forgot about that skill since I haven't used it after level 30, back when fates were the hottness. So that is the viable defensive move scholars have? Do I have to ask the BLM/SMN/BRD to stand still while I try to cast it?

I think a lot of people in this thread can tell who actually plays a healer in PVP and who doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Domira

And you truly believe that your role as a healer was to heal and do damage over time? This is would be a imbalance, since the role would be able to perform the functions of a dps role. What this would mean in terms of balance is that scholar wouldn't be a healer class but more so a jack of all trades class. Meaning, they technically should be mediocre at dps and healing, but has access to do both. Obviously they are designed to be a healing class, which is their strength. Not being able to deal high damage is their weakness, without the weakness it will create balance issues.

Never in a pvp game I played was the healers role to do damage and heal. CC? Yes, DPS no.

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Discipline Priest.

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Originally Posted by Utsu

Discipline Priest.

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Also literally any healer/dps class in Guild Wars 2

Edit because I have hit the limit on posts -

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Originally Posted by Domira

This isn't a very good example, there is no healing class in gw2. There is no holy trinity archetype. Most importantly heals in gw2 do not generally heal party members for large amounts of health. There are a few but they have hefty penalities.

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Alright I will concede that, but it is still obvious that there are a lot more healer + Dps combos in pvp games than what you first thought there would be.
I mean I generally either play the Healer + Dps or Healer + Tank Combo classes if I want to pvp.

Last edit because the post limit is a silly thing -

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Originally Posted by Domira

FFXIV healers aren't designed in that manner, they are designed to heal through large amounts of damage. If you pair this with the fact that they are very sturdy in pvp, have access to sprint and can possibly do damage with cleric stance then it will only cause imbalances and complaints. I feel your point would be justified if SCH did play similar to bs/tos. But they don't. Make no mistake, I don't agree with SE removing Cleric Stance from pvp entirely. If I were on the balance team, I would of simply of reduced the healing penalty even further in pvp.

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You haven't played Healers to understand how they are designed in pvp, Scholar has lost the only way to ward off people who will keep interrupting their heal casts, we're in a state of uselessness, and I said earlier if you weren't paying attention SCHOLARS CANNOT HEAL THROUGH LARGE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.
Its not a heal nerf for cleric stance we need, that would do bugger all to be honest (I also mentioned earlier scholars worthwhile pvp heals don't rely too much on cleric stance being on or off, see also - they generally ignore cleric stance, if you need a heal which does get effected by cleric stance switch it off...Easy.) its a nerf to dps, which they did do, but it was completely overboard and rendered scholar useless.

Okay I just need to edit one last thing -

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

Also, you're not useless cuz your job is to heal, not dps. So there's that.

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This thread just keeps going in circles and circles and circles AND CIRCLES.
Please refer to all my other posts on this exact same thing throughout this thread.
Also more often than not a dps would keep away from me in group combat if they were smart, heal debuff and DoTs? Yeah your in trouble if you stick around and keep bothering me.

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Originally Posted by Lycinder

Also literally any healer/dps class in Guild Wars 2

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This isn't a very good example, there is no healing class in gw2. There is no holy trinity archetype. Most importantly heals in gw2 do not generally heal party members for large amounts of health. There are a few but they have hefty penalities.

I forgot the Burning Crusade/S5 Mageladin. Every healers have to assist DPS anyway. Our DPS was probably too high as healer, I don't know honestly, but removing Cleric Stance is just a shame.

I didn't say they didn't exist, I said in the games I've played.

But since you mentioned AOC as a example, it made me remember that I DID pvp a lot in that game. Heals in aoc are similar to gw2. Where as heals were more so anti erosion than anti burst. The big heals were on long cooldowns, I believe 60 secs. GW2 in this respect is similar, heals are anti erosion not anti burst. Anti burst heals are on long cds.

FFXIV healers aren't designed in that manner, they are designed to heal through large amounts of damage. If you pair this with the fact that they are very sturdy in pvp, have access to sprint and can possibly do damage with cleric stance then it will only cause imbalances and complaints. I feel your point would be justified if SCH did play similar to bs/tos. But they don't. Make no mistake, I don't agree with SE removing Cleric Stance from pvp entirely. If I were on the balance team, I would of simply of reduced the healing penalty even further in pvp.

LOL I totally suggested this exact solution in the "healers are op in PvP" thread back when I was upset that there was a premade of 8 healers just owning everyone. Haha.

Now that I'm playing whm again though, I'm not too happy about it :( me and my big mouth.

To those saying SCH is useless and defenseless now... I don't ever remember backing off of a SCH just cuz I got DoTed lol DoTs don't add anything to your defense other than helping to kill the offensive enemies.. but if someone is on you, I can't imagine a couple of DoTs will send them running hahahahaha. If you're referring to getting caught alone and unable to kill opponent, well, knock em back and run like hell and have Eos spam Embrace. Our DPS is just reduced, not completely gone.

Also, you're not useless cuz your job is to heal, not dps. So there's that.

It is really painful to see how many people are so shortsighted about this change. There are so many things that this affects and so many things wrong with all of this i don't even know where to start.

Let's go with this though. It's about

1. wholesale, punishing changes incited by
2. players without requisite experience, skills or know how affecting
3. classes that are already in short supply in a game event that already has
4. rapidly fading interest and fundamental flaws with queue times.

Re-read the thread, guys. All those people who just said they weren't healing anymore are some of the guys who were the lone healer in your party or the ones that changed to one when it was an all DPS setup. And these are only the people who post. Guess what will happen to all the other healers who were already on the fence with PVP? Any marginal interest they had will have dissipated.

It's not even necessarily the fact that healers lost an ability. It's the fact that healers are continually being driven into the ground based on the reckless complaints of players who haven't even played those jobs, let alone fully understand them. And it's the fact that the devs continue to listen to these kinds of players over the ones who actually DO have the understanding and experience of how these things work. Think of the message that is sent when players who have many years of pvp experience in other successful games get ignored by the devs and then are at the mercy of the demands of these reckless requests. Eventually the message is so strong that players will get fed up and leave instead of putting up with bad design and balance changes.

The healers that you enjoy playing with, the ones that hold up your party? They aren't gonna be there anymore and as a result you are going to have LESS healers, which will lead to LESS functional parties, LESS wins, and eventually LESS pvp for everyone on the whole.

Idk about you, but I was always too busy healing on WHM to use Cleric Stance. The only times I would ever use Cleric Stance is when I get caught alone, there's only a few enemies at our flag, and if we had 3+ healers. So no, this isn't going to fundamentally change anything. People that love to heal will not be bothered by the fact that they're no longer OP.