[Dev 10xx] Please re-examine the return death penalty.

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Originally Posted by Razor

More of a theoretical question: why is it that certain people viciously loathe the idea of losing gear durability when you die? And instead would favor for the loss of experiences point in its stead? Coming from a background of MMOs (aside from XI 5+ years) that have gear that needs maintained (repaired) the prospect of having to regularly upkeep my gear is commonplace to me, I do it without thinking almost lol. And I for one was very thrilled when I saw XIV was taking the route of gear damage penalty over EXP loss.

So I ask you: why the acute hatred for gear damage? Is it the opposite of my case (a history of MMOs without gear damage)?

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People are stupid.

i don't know why people hate gear damage so much here: the world is full with games like that, even offline games...
btw, brink of death of 10 minute ? You mad ?

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Originally Posted by Razor

More of a theoretical question: why is it that certain people viciously loathe the idea of losing gear durability when you die? And instead would favor for the loss of experiences point in its stead? Coming from a background of MMOs (aside from XI 5+ years) that have gear that needs maintained (repaired) the prospect of having to regularly upkeep my gear is commonplace to me, I do it without thinking almost lol. And I for one was very thrilled when I saw XIV was taking the route of gear damage penalty over EXP loss.

So I ask you: why the acute hatred for gear damage? Is it the opposite of my case (a history of MMOs without gear damage)?

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Not everyone has there hand classes leveled up to repair there gear. It also a hassle to find people to repair. It also effects the way you battle. Damaging armor is fine aslong as its something like once every 500 fights/every 3-5days till it needs to be repaired im fine with that.

They just need to decreass the amount of % which is beinging knocked off when you get hit or KO'd.

Also raises questions about reselling equipment since you cant sell or trade it away to another player when its damaged.


Another big problem in the game is +1, +2, +3 equipment that have no boost in there stats besides there repair status.
Some equipment pieces that are +3 are 4x the price then the normal equipment. Alot of people would just buy the normal item over the +3 cus its not worth there money.

Something like.... +1 on the stats that are included to the piece of armor.

Equipments.

+1 DEF,MAG DEF BOOST
+2 STR,AGI,INT ETC.
+3 Attack,Eva,Acc

If they wanted they could add a +4 which would include..

+4 %Blunt,%Slashing etc.

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Originally Posted by Venat

Not everyone has there hand classes leveled up to repair there gear. It also a hassle to find people to repair. It also effects the way you battle. Damaging armor is fine aslong as its something like once every 500 fights/every 3-5days till it needs to be repaired im fine with that.

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Putting my gear in bazaar for repair for 8k and sitting in front of repair NPC, so hard.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Putting my gear in bazaar for repair for 8k and sitting in front of repair NPC, so hard.

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Also another annoying thing. To keep setting it in your bazzer and setting a price for 8+ pieces of equipment. Also can only set 5 pieces to be repaired also at a time.

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Originally Posted by Venat

Not everyone has there hand classes leveled up to repair there gear. It also a hassle to find people to repair. It also effects the way you battle. Damaging armor is fine aslong as its something like once every 500 fights/every 3-5days till it needs to be repaired im fine with that.

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As long as you provide an adequate price (ie: not 300g for Grade 5 DM repairs like I've seen some people put up) it really isn't hard to get things repaired. If you carry multiple sets of gear it really isn't much of a hassle. I always have a backup set of gear, especially weapons on a class I'm leveling heavily. When stuff gets busted I put it in my bazaar and switch to my reserve gear and keep on going. More often than not by the time the backup gear is damaged someone (usually within 5-20 min depending on where I am) has already repaired my gear. At camps and such I've seen people switch over to a DoH class just to make a quick buck off the repair. I think its just a different way of thinking you get into once you are used to gear getting damaged fairly quickly.

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Originally Posted by Venat

Also raises questions about reselling equipment since you cant sell or trade it away to another player when its damaged.

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Yeah this is a bit silly, they could even add a notification you are about to purchased damaged gear if it helps the devs sleep at night. If I'm buying a piece of gear for up to or over 100k, an extra 3-5k to get it fixed is not going to kill me.

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Originally Posted by WillRiker

Should offer more compensation to a crafter. I repair stuff all the time, but if you expect me to repair non-LSmates for no profit... your gear can remain damaged.

Besides, getting a craft to 36 is easy, and that will allow you to repair up to rank 46 items. Getting to 40 is more difficult.

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I do offer money.. but that doesn't make repairers come by any faster. :/ Or change the fact that I have to wait around to get repaired in the first place while in most other MMOs it is a 1 second process. If someone has 2 hours to play why would they want to spend it all waiting around to get repaired? It just doesn't seem right.

I dont know what ppl have problem here, nowdays ppl will willingly check other people bazaar to find something that they can repair, even at the camps. I think it is a good culture to have. and anyway, is gear damage penalty significant to our att/def?

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Originally Posted by Akashi

If someone has 2 hours to play why would they want to spend it all waiting around to get repaired? It just doesn't seem right.

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Isn't that the point of retainers? If you have all day to play you can afford to afk for lunch and let your gear get repaired. If you have only 2hrs to play you can put your gear in your retainer for the other 22hrs of the day, no?

What be a good idea if you can auto-manage your repairs without having to keep managing your repais all the time.

They add a menu Menu where you can set what % you want your equipment to be shown when you need it repaired and the price per Dark Matter grade.

Anyone can see all your equipment and what state there in and repair it.

Say you offer 1gil per Dark Matter Grade1 Repair or 5000gil for Grade5 repair.
If you dont set a price for a Grade. Say 0gil those pieces of equipment that requre those grades wont be shown.

Like I said you can set your %.

Say When any Equipment reaches 50% and below it will be shown.

Say When any equipmnt reaches 10% and below it will be shown.

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Originally Posted by Razor

Isn't that the point of retainers? If you have all day to play you can afford to afk for lunch and let your gear get repaired. If you have only 2hrs to play you can put your gear in your retainer for the other 22hrs of the day, no?

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Would it be harder to find a retainer repair in the 20 zones we have now? Also Fills the Wards up.

I don't have a retainer; all of my spots are taken up by characters. Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad method if retainers and characters did not share account slots, but I don't think it's such a good idea to balance a system around things that do not come basic with the game (such as retainers).

I don't know so much about automatic repair management, it starts to cross the line of "why not just make everything automatic". I'd be more in favor of an NPC or something that you trade your damaged gear too with a price on it and as DoH talk to the NPC, it doles out gear to them to be repaired (kinda like leves). If you're a rank 20 TAN you'll be offered stuff you can repair as it comes into the NPC. It would work kinda like how laundramats work in rl haha. Stop in town, drop your gear off at the NPC and come back later before you leave to pick up your repaired gear :P

I don't think we should take away yet another use for the crafting classes =|

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Originally Posted by Akashi

I don't have a retainer; all of my spots are taken up by characters. Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad method if retainers and characters did not share account slots, but I don't think it's such a good idea to balance a system around things that do not come basic with the game (such as retainers).

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What are you even talking about?

Don't you still have to buy a retainer slot via the account management service, and retainers still share those slots with character slots?

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Originally Posted by Akashi

Don't you still have to buy a retainer slot via the account management service, and retainers still share those slots with character slots?

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Not that I know of? I just talked to the NPC in Ul'dah and she was like "HOW U LYK DIS ONEEE???"

It's fine right now. No want broke your equip? Play better. Already play good? Play better. Still die. Look for a firend and ask for raise. Even PAY for a raise. Meaby will he more cheap. Idk

Well. And farm to pay the repairs :D.

I thinks it so silly to think the DP as it is needs be changed just because ppl dont want to rank crafts, spend money, or make friends. Since my friends quit i have been soloing the game and accepted that if im gonna solo i got to do what i need to do to keep myself playing.

I don't really like the repair system, but i've learned to accept it.
And I'd rather lose durability than losing SP.

IMO I kinda like the repair system. Although I think that reducing the gil reward on leves by 80% and introducing the DP for returns in the same patch was a little hasty. Any money that I make in dungeons goes to repairs because I am CON most of the time and die all the time.

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Originally Posted by Blain

IMO I kinda like the repair system. Although I think that reducing the gil reward on leves by 80% and introducing the DP for returns in the same patch was a little hasty. Any money that I make in dungeons goes to repairs because I am CON most of the time and die all the time.

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Mages deserve a reraise spell lol. But I agree, added repairs AND less money from everything was a bit of a 1-2 punch below the belt to most of us without several million gil. But meh, still one of the easiest games to make money in so its okay. Less money from everything puts more of a demand for players to craft/sell stuff which is good for the game as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Hikozaemon

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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What? So you hate the current system but you would rather they have us pay real money to repair things? It's hardly "the dumbest most ignorant shit I've ever seen". Repair systems are fine and dozens upon dozens of games use similar systems. Hell at least it's not as stupid as Fallout 3's repair system.

Someone said a nice way of doing it but I don't remember who, something like this;

a separate rank/exp bar of up to lets say for example 10k exp. You gain this at the same rate as normal exp, the higher amount of exp on this separate bar you have, the stronger you become, if you die, the bar is reduced to 0.

This system rewards people for not dying rather than punishing them for dying. Obviously needs some work but it's a nice idea.

Just bump the NPC repairs to 100% for a higher price and/or restrict 100% NPC Repairs to once a week. Crafters can still make gil by charging less than the NPC's and offering midweek repairs.

I didnt mind the death penalty at first, but after a while its become irritating, mainly due to the fact that alot of my leve quest targets have either been dumped in the middle of large numbers of aggro quest mobs, as well as clumping aggro leve targets together in large groups and also having high level aggro mobs spawn ontop of my solo grind camp out of nowhere after 30mins-1hour of grinding there.

Hopefully when they do levequest and mob revisions these kinds of problems get fixed, im sure it will do, if not i'll just suck it up and deal with it.

NO SP lost, this system sucks
i prefer pay for repair that sp lost, please dont listen

My biggest problem with the system is just the amount of time it can take to find people to repair your gear. On another thread someone suggested a crafting recipe for a toolkit type item that they could sell in the wards. The toolkit would be crafted with the dark matter and require whatever the max rank required to repair gear with that tier of materials. Then other players could buy these items and repair their gear right away instead of standing around in town for hours. A side bonus is it allows crafters to set their own price for repairs instead of complaining about people not offering enough in their bazaar.

Why do we bother repairing gear anyway? Its all useless anyway broken or not.

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Originally Posted by Akashi

I do offer money.. but that doesn't make repairers come by any faster. :/ Or change the fact that I have to wait around to get repaired in the first place while in most other MMOs it is a 1 second process. If someone has 2 hours to play why would they want to spend it all waiting around to get repaired? It just doesn't seem right.

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Originally Posted by Razor

Isn't that the point of retainers? If you have all day to play you can afford to afk for lunch and let your gear get repaired. If you have only 2hrs to play you can put your gear in your retainer for the other 22hrs of the day, no?

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Returning to town to manage your retainer takes time. If you have two hours to play, it's a pretty significant chunk of time. This is why we have the less effective but faster repair NPCs. All that's really needed is some tweaking of the system.
One of the draws to this game for me was that I wasn't forced to return to town for repairs in the middle of a quest- they can be conducted even in the middle of a levequest. As opposed to D&D Online, which has ha much less forgiving gear damage system ( to the point where an item's durability can degrade permanently ). In other words, you can be in an instanced dungeon and unable to repair gear without returning to town. FFXIV has a very mild gear damage system in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Akashi

I don't have a retainer; all of my spots are taken up by characters. Maybe that wouldn't be such a bad method if retainers and characters did not share account slots, but I don't think it's such a good idea to balance a system around things that do not come basic with the game (such as retainers).

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Don't we get two free retainers per character slot?
It's the extra retainers that cost extra slots.

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Originally Posted by Arximiro

The few responses here are honestly the first time I have ever seen anyone in favor of gear damage in an MMO or RPG in my life.

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These are the same people who'll defend and even ASK FOR gear swapping... Don't even try to understand it. They get slapped in the face over again and ask for more.

I was always for gear decay myself, but the current change is not very friendly to explorers and soloers. They can either reduce the rate that gear damage happens on hitting return, remove the return penalty altogether or give us reraise in some shape or form.

I don't mind have to repair my gear, I'd rather support crafters in fact I HAVE NEVER USED the repair merchant. But what we have right now is such a slap in my face I'd rather be playing Guild Wars or Age of Conan, I'lll even take WoW...

Edit: For those of you saying , I'll take this over SP loss!!?? Who the frack is asking for SP loss? Do you people even read the OP before hitting reply? Do yourself a favor go play something OTHER then XI or XIV Online for just a few hours. It doesn't have to be this way guys.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

These are the same people who'll defend and even ASK FOR gear swapping... Don't even try to understand it. They get slapped in the face over again and ask for more.

I was always for gear decay myself, but the current change is not very friendly to explorers and soloers. They can either reduce the rate that gear damage happens on hitting return, remove the return penalty altogether or give us reraise in some shape or form.

I don't mind have to repair my gear, I'd rather support crafters in fact I HAVE NEVER USED the repair merchant. But what we have right now is such a slap in my face I'd rather be playing Guild Wars or Age of Conan, I'lll even take WoW...

Edit: For those of you saying , I'll take this over SP loss!!?? Who the frack is asking for SP loss? Do you people even read the OP before hitting reply? Do yourself a favor go play something OTHER then XI or XIV Online for just a few hours. It doesn't have to be this way guys.

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Read posts other than the OP's >_> Some people are asking for SP loss.

It's kinda amusing how raging the OP is over gear damage from death, I mean the way Yoshida explained it is quite logical. How would you feel as a casual player if you lost SP when you died cause of an unforeseen incident you weren't anticipating. While you tried to "herp a derp" at the idea of "not dying" that's really what all this comes down to. You should be thankful at how low the % of gear dmg is to, only 10% a death so at full you have 10 deaths til it's broken or 7 if you use NPC repair. If you keep on dying 10+ times then perhaps you should reevaluate the current strategy you are using against an opponent.

The point of a death penalty is so people are more cautious with how they fight and quite honestly with what they are going for in this game gear durability is a lot better then losing xp gained. In XI before abyssea you could lose a good bit of progress from one HP maybe something around 30-hr of xp. In dynamis for those that were used as decoys they could lose a good chunk of xp ranging from 5-10k. So ya would you really want this in XIV where people are discouraged to even try anything at risk of losing the skill they gained. At least with gear if you are so worried about it, then carry an extra pair of armor, or a pair of "risk armor" that you don't mind getting dmged if you are trying to do something reckless. But overall as long as you are smart about it there's no need to be troubled by the current death penalty.

And ye know they did make things easier for crafters to repair by changing mats needed to repair all items to a universal of grade 1-5 so if you really need your armor repaired just take the time to get to know others in the game and see if you can find a long term friend in a crafter willing to repair your gear to 100% for a decent price. I honestly doubt it would be that hard to find a person willing to repair your gear if you took the time to look into it, you just gotta make sure the amount of gil you are offering is worth their time.

Some people in here mentioned SP death penalty? SE should never, EVER go back to that type of system. EVER.

I think the gear damage system works, except for the fact that people in parties don't get affected because they can be Raised. If they made it universal (where even if you got revived by a party member you still got the Gear Damage), and maybe lowered the rate of normal use Gear Damage a bit more then it'd be just fine.

Upon using "Return" damaging your gear addition in 1.18 is about the only thing i didn't like about the patch although i'd rather just see gear damage abolished altogether. When i say to myself "Gear damage and Repairing gear" i don't see the fun factor in it and i know its not there because we have to have it. I think SE can come up with better ways of encourging crafting and rewarding those with crafts as well as gilsinks, i don't mind paying alot of gil when chocobos hit the game atleast thats useful.

SP loss should never be in this game. Forget it exists. It's a relic of a dead age of MMOs that FFXI was unfortunate enough to catch the tail end of.

I'm of the opinion that positive reinforcement is a much better alternative to smacking down people for exploring. For instance, if you want to see how an unfamiliar class of enemy fights, you can take a risk and fight with it,and if you win you feel awesome. No need to discourage that. However, with a harsh death penalty people are discouraged from taking risks, and so play in the same "safe", boring way over and over until they get tired of that content. At that point they might take a risk, but they may just as easily leave the game, as so many people have in this game when they got bored of content before. Really, devs should be encouraging people to experiment since that's where a lot of the fun in games is.

To this end, I don't think the idea of a gear damage system is inherently bad (unlike SP Loss, which is basically gambling with boring grind) but it needs to have been paired with a more fundamental change to the repair system to make it as painless as possible for people who don't craft. Why exactly do i need to stand in town for hours or send gear I use often to a retainer and just hope it's repaired by the time I next log in? Especially when other MMOs with a repair system it's literally a one click and done process, something to hold you back from zombie fighting but otherwise not something you need to worry about a lot? What part of that promotes fun? Well, this is really symptomatic of the flawed market and crafting systems of this game, but that's too complex a topic to go into here.

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Originally Posted by Arximiro

I can't find a list of Dev tags anywhere and the few I did locate we not related to this subject matter.

Anyways here is the post...

Intro

The idea of a death penalty is fine, most of us agree on that. The current one really needs to go however. People dislike the repair system in general and forcing us to deal with it even more is adding to something we already dislike.

My Suggestion

1. Completely do away with the gear damage system. It sucks and very few people like it.

2. Upon returning upon death issue a 5 or 10 minute Brink of Death status effect. This will prevent people from zombie'ing things because you are pretty much useless under BOD. That is the only reason I can even find that they instituted this death penalty in the first place was to prevent that.

3. Leave the current raise and weakness system in-tact it works well. This only applies to the annoying return upon death penalty you experience when soloing leves or in dungeons when you full-wipe.

If you agree that they should remove the gear damage system and institute a DP like the one I suggested please like this post.

With enough comments and likes we can get our voices heard. As cheesy as that sounds it seems to work really well with this dev team.

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1. NO, actually more people like it than not, numbers in this vote obviously show that.

2. Lesson is learn not to die or get in over your head. You die you have to pay the price, atleast it isn't like FFXI and you have to go all the way back to whatever your homepoint is.

3. You are right, the system is perfect the way it is. I accept you have an opinion and you dislike how it currently is but the majority likes it or doesn't care either way.

Well... I don't like to fuel my car, but it's needed.
And by the way, gear reparation is just a DoH/Repair NPC away. If it's not 100% it's 75%, and until it reaches 35% it doesn't have any altered effects, so if you can't die 5 times you'll die only 3 times and go repair your equipment.

The current Death system is preventing people from zombie-ing already. My pals think twice before attacking with the Brink of Death.
Hell, even WoW gives wearing damage after returning to the graveyard and nobody complained about it.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Hell, even WoW gives wearing damage after returning to the graveyard and nobody complained about it.

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Nobody complains about it because it's not so punishing as this one. And for those asking for SP loss, again, get out of your comfort zone for five hours and go play something else. There's another world outside your FF cocoon.

It's not about gear degradation ITSELF, it's about how retardly fast it's going once you hit return. Therefore IT'S NOT EVEN ABOUT DYING either. The leves are unbalanced as well and when you pair it all together it's a serious pain in the neck UNLESS you group. Which not all of us have the luxury of doing all the time.

At this time playing this game is not an option for me, I'm keeping an eye on lodestone notes and hoping to see something to the effect that either leves are adjusted or the return dp is OR we get reraise. It's not that hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

1. NO, actually more people like it than not, numbers in this vote obviously show that.

2. Lesson is learn not to die or get in over your head. You die you have to pay the price, atleast it isn't like FFXI and you have to go all the way back to whatever your homepoint is.

3. You are right, the system is perfect the way it is. I accept you have an opinion and you dislike how it currently is but the majority likes it or doesn't care either way.

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Could you teach me how to not crash and come back dead, cause that's been happening to me often lately, and I hate paying for repairs when the game itself crashes through no action of my own....