[dev1032] PUG skills singled out.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

It's not about making things easier, it's about removing needlessly stupid and unnecessary MP costs on attacks that aren't magic based at all. Pugilist should not have MP cost on attacks. I would be fine with Monk if it made sense, but that's the job Monk. Pugilist is strictly a fist fighting class.

Also as others have said it's about equality. Other classes have skills that have the same effect but no MP cost. Why only Pugilist?

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Other melee classes do also have abilities that cost them MP. It's part of the game, you are too hung up on "magic based"=mage, it's a fantasy game many things have a bit of magical explanation surrounding them (including pugilists).

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Light strike is simply better than other abilities, as is pummel. So I'm fine with them having MP cost as long as we have a way (within our class) to maintain them with some effort.

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Wait, how is pummel better? Our autoattack is 2 swings. It's a 2 swing strike. Pugilists are balanced around 2 swings. It's essentially the same skill as Full Thrust or Heavy Swing.

Also, shouldn't Light Stab have an MP cost since it provides a buff after using it, too?

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Originally Posted by Murugan

That's not really fair. Light strike is simply better than other abilities, as is pummel. So I'm fine with them having MP cost as long as we have a way (within our class) to maintain them with some effort.

Now since we don't currently have this, I think we need either an in-class solution or them removed.

My bigger concern is that flurry is still broken in BR. This should have been fixed in 1.18a

Flurry still acts like it is a heavy strike activated ability, so it won't let you queue it. This makes no sense with the 1.18 changes.

Also as for how "fair" it is, it's really not hard to manage except in situations where you are tanking or dps'ing and healing yourself with cure quite a bit. In those cases (generally the instances) you do have the option of using Ethers. So it isn't like a gamebreaker or anything.

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...you are talking about r45~50 pug....
( I grind sp solo = I have to fight while healing myself and no one want to join sp party for low level in my server)

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Other melee classes do also have abilities that cost them MP. It's part of the game, you are too hung up on "magic based"=mage, it's a fantasy game many things have a bit of magical explanation surrounding them (including pugilists).

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how is pummel any better than the lnc skill of the same description?

how is light strike too hax? its essentially the same buff as before, and it wasnt too hax then. Do you know pugilist is a tank, and yet it has the lowest armor rating for any mellee? do you know that approximately half of dmg skills are based on evasion, and virtually none of the gear that gives evasion cant be worn by a gladiator, and the best evasion gear is probably on archer?

light strike isnt some super hax, its a basic function of the pugilist build.

How is pugilist supposed to be a master of evasive fighting, when we have no more evasion than a gladiator or an archer, well now we can have it, but only for 1/3rd of the time.

their is no basic skill that costs mp on any other mellee job, heck there isnt even one on a mage job. and pugilist has
NO NATURAL MEANS for getting mp, it also doesnt even have a high mp/mind ratio. both lnc and archer get more mp.

In what twisted crazy world is it justified that we have to pay for our basic mechanic, does archer pay mp for multi shot? does lnc pay for speed surge? does mrd pay for steadfast stance?

it is really stupid for pugilist to have to pay for their basic mechanics in a resource they have no affinity for.

If they want it to make sense for monk, then they should put mp on monk skills, there really is NO LOGICAL EXPLANATION for this.

honestly it seems like matsui has no vision or idea what pugilist and marauder is supposed to be, he is trying to build them to be the same as lancer. Its like he decided that they are all really the same job, but you can just insert a couple different weapons, in fact it seems he is trying to make them into that.

the reason you think pugilist abilities are better is because you forget that pugilist doesnt have surges and steadfast. the only exclusive trait or ability that pugilist has is its basic attacks. (i mean abilities that do something not weaponskills, we all have weaponskills) so yeah when you try to compare light strike, keep in mind it was essentially supposed to be a passive type ability that defines the class, its the simplified answer they came up with for the idea of being able to commit to a defensive or offensive style of fighting, its also not a guild mark skill, it was one of the starter abilities of pugilist. Other than light strike there is nothing that would make pugilist have above average evasion.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

Other melee classes do also have abilities that cost them MP. It's part of the game, you are too hung up on "magic based"=mage, it's a fantasy game many things have a bit of magical explanation surrounding them (including pugilists).

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So the abilities that cost MP:

Trifucurcate 15 MP 120sec recast

Red Lotus 10 MP (cannot miss)

Luminous Spire 10 MP (cannot miss)

Iron Tempest 10 MP (aoe)


That said, rarely will people use Iron Tempest or Red Lotus. I don't see why its necessary to have the MP costs there at all really. Doesn't necessarily make things easier, just causes less of a headache.

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Originally Posted by Physic

how is pummel any better than the lnc skill of the same description?

how is light strike too hax? its essentially the same buff as before, and it wasnt too hax then. Do you know pugilist is a tank, and yet it has the lowest armor rating for any mellee? do you know that approximately half of dmg skills are based on evasion, and virtually none of the gear that gives evasion cant be worn by a gladiator, and the best evasion gear is probably on archer?

light strike isnt some super hax, its a basic function of the pugilist build.

How is pugilist supposed to be a master of evasive fighting, when we have no more evasion than a gladiator or an archer, well now we can have it, but only for 1/3rd of the time.

their is no basic skill that costs mp on any other mellee job, heck there isnt even one on a mage job. and pugilist has
NO NATURAL MEANS for getting mp, it also doesnt even have a high mp/mind ratio. both lnc and archer get more mp.

In what twisted crazy world is it justified that we have to pay for our basic mechanic, does archer pay mp for multi shot? does lnc pay for speed surge? does mrd pay for steadfast stance?

it is really stupid for pugilist to have to pay for their basic mechanics in a resource they have no affinity for.

If they want it to make sense for monk, then they should put mp on monk skills, there really is NO LOGICAL EXPLANATION for this.

honestly it seems like matsui has no vision or idea what pugilist and marauder is supposed to be, he is trying to build them to be the same as lancer. Its like he decided that they are all really the same job, but you can just insert a couple different weapons, in fact it seems he is trying to make them into that.

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You are way overreacting to this. Listen pugilist was my first class, it will always be my main class, and I'm not calling for it to be nerfed. But a minor MP cost on 2 of our abilities does not make us totally unbalanced. Other melee's do have MP costs associated with certain abilities too. Whether they are "basic" attacks or not is irrelevant post 1.18 because basic attacks have timers as long as most "stamina" buffs from before.

Also yes I know pugilist is a tank, I tank in darkhold and I have a complaint about the MP cost because of this. However I also use ethers when in Darkhold (well.. I try to/should at least) and because of that it is not a problem for me. I'd like them to add a native ability to regen a very small amount of MP through Second Wind, I think this would be the perfect solution.

In normal situations I can manage my MP just fine. Pugilist in general is "fine", we are getting a good buff in the next patch. I wish you'd stop calling for drastic, unnecessary changes to a class design that works as is, because those are the type that usually end up not being as beneficial (in terms of our balance in comparison to other classes) in the end as you'd think.

Manageability is not the issue.

The skills offer nothing more than their other class versions, but for PGL they suddenly cost MP. There is simply no need for this. From a balancing perspective I cannot see the reasoning behind adding an MP Cost to either of them, but especially Pummel.

Pummel is essentially a regular hit that generates more TP than a basic attack. It is basically PGL's equivalent of LNC's Full Thrust, which costs no MP. Now, all of a sudden Pummel costs 20 MP? It doesn't even hit harder or anything.

In my opinion, what they should have done is change the function of Light Strike and Pummel. Go back to the roots of Pugilist class design, as it was depicted on the FFXIV website before the game's release.

Have Light Strike and Pummel act as Auto-Attack modifiers in the form of stances.

Light Strike - 10 MP, 60s Cooldown
Adopt a defensive stance, increasing defense and evasion while reducing damage done and TP generated by Auto-Attack. Enable counter-attack chains*. Effect lasts 300s.

Pummel - 20 MP, 60s Cooldown
Adopt an offensive stance, increasing Auto-Attack speed. Disable counter-attacks. Effect lasts 300s

*The ability to use Haymaker, Jarring Strike and/or Simian Thrash in succession.


Now if they went with something like this, not only would it make PGL a much more unique class, but it would justify the MP costs.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

You are way overreacting to this. Listen pugilist was my first class, it will always be my main class, and I'm not calling for it to be nerfed. But a minor MP cost on 2 of our abilities does not make us totally unbalanced. Other melee's do have MP costs associated with certain abilities too. Whether they are "basic" attacks or not is irrelevant post 1.18 because basic attacks have timers as long as most "stamina" buffs from before.

Also yes I know pugilist is a tank, I tank in darkhold and I have a complaint about the MP cost because of this. However I also use ethers when in Darkhold (well.. I try to/should at least) and because of that it is not a problem for me. I'd like them to add a native ability to regen a very small amount of MP through Second Wind, I think this would be the perfect solution.

In normal situations I can manage my MP just fine. Pugilist in general is "fine", we are getting a good buff in the next patch. I wish you'd stop calling for drastic, unnecessary changes to a class design that works as is, because those are the type that usually end up not being as beneficial (in terms of our balance in comparison to other classes) in the end as you'd think.

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Why is it you think pugilist should pay mp, to do the only thing that makes it special? Evasion is now the only thing pugilist has, because they killed the flurry increased tp/offense mechanic. I like pugilist as well, but the mp issue defies logic, sure you can probably still do your job, your just not as good at it for 2/3rds the time, AND you have a mp pool limit on how long you can do it.

But you have no mp mechanics! you are probably tied for lowest mp pool in the game, what is the logic? Every one else does it for free, in fact lancer has the exact same skill for free? Why?

No one's asking for "drastic unnecessary changes". We simply want the be on equal ground with other damage classes. Why do we have MP costs on basic attacks when other classes don't? It's not like they do anything particularly special. You can't really argue it from a buff standpoint because most War class buffs and attacks that buff don't require MP. Why should Light Strike require MP when Featherfoot doesn't? Featherfoot actually has a much greater version of the same effect.

Managing MP isn't the issue either. The issue is that MP costs on these skills are unnecessary and make absolutely no sense. Why are they there? They clearly shouldn't be.

At R50 with 93 Mind I have 479 MP. Sure that's quite a bit but throw Cure II in there along with MP costs from Pummel and Light Strike and it goes pretty quick. I don't think most people playing Pugilist have that much Mind honestly. I only have it that way because I occasionally play mage classes and we haven't received the per-class point distribution yet.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

No one's asking for "drastic unnecessary changes". We simply want the be on equal ground with other damage classes. Why do we have MP costs on basic attacks when other classes don't? It's not like they do anything particularly special. You can't really argue it from a buff standpoint because most War class buffs and attacks that buff don't require MP. Why should Light Strike require MP when Featherfoot doesn't? Featherfoot actually has a much greater version of the same effect.

Managing MP isn't the issue either. The issue is that MP costs on these skills are unnecessary and make absolutely no sense. Why are they there? They clearly shouldn't be.

At R50 with 93 Mind I have 479 MP. Sure that's quite a bit but throw Cure II in there along with MP costs from Pummel and Light Strike and it goes pretty quick. I don't think most people playing Pugilist have that much Mind honestly. I only have it that way because I occasionally play mage classes and we haven't received the per-class point distribution yet.

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I really think they are messing with pugilist for the sake of thier vision of monk, but whatever monk is, pugilist is not that. If they want to give Monk an ability that enhances light strike, but makes it cost mp, or cost mp itself, thats fine, if they want to make mind a good secondary stat for monk, ok whatever. But it really has no place on pugilist, and no place on basic attacks. If they want it to have a mana cost, give it a reason, make it make sense within its on class mechanics, and compared to other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

No one's asking for "drastic unnecessary changes". We simply want the be on equal ground with other damage classes. Why do we have MP costs on basic attacks when other classes don't? It's not like they do anything particularly special. You can't really argue it from a buff standpoint because most War class buffs and attacks that buff don't require MP. Why should Light Strike require MP when Featherfoot doesn't? Featherfoot actually has a much greater version of the same effect.

Managing MP isn't the issue either. The issue is that MP costs on these skills are unnecessary and make absolutely no sense. Why are they there? They clearly shouldn't be.

At R50 with 93 Mind I have 479 MP. Sure that's quite a bit but throw Cure II in there along with MP costs from Pummel and Light Strike and it goes pretty quick. I don't think most people playing Pugilist have that much Mind honestly. I only have it that way because I occasionally play mage classes and we haven't received the per-class point distribution yet.

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I disagree. Pummel, Flurry, and Light Strike are all on a separate timer. Do you want them to change this? MP is not that bad, and stop saying it makes no sense. It makes just as much sense as an MP cost on other classes weapon skills or self buffs. It is a fantasy game, maybe if all we could do was simply punch, and dodge out of the way with no special or magical effect (like if this was a simple hack and slash game) then your argument of it making "absolutely no sense" would... make sense. But we don't, so lore wise or whatever you are trying to elude to it makes perfect sense.

We should have a way to natively regen some MP I think, because these abilities are so important in a long fight. I wouldn't get my hopes up though for them to simply remove the MP cost while keeping all of our other advantages (no shared cooldown for one). I'd rather have the MP, because you are right it is manageable.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I disagree. Pummel, Flurry, and Light Strike are all on a separate timer.

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All the extra attacks are on seperate timers. The MP actions I listed on the previous page are situational or simply used alot less than these PGL specific attacks.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I disagree. Pummel, Flurry, and Light Strike are all on a separate timer. Do you want them to change this? MP is not that bad, and stop saying it makes no sense. It makes just as much sense as an MP cost on other classes weapon skills or self buffs. It is a fantasy game, maybe if all we could do was simply punch, and dodge out of the way with no special or magical effect (like if this was a simple hack and slash game) then your argument of it making "absolutely no sense" would... make sense. But we don't, so lore wise or whatever you are trying to elude to it makes perfect sense.

We should have a way to natively regen some MP I think, because these abilities are so important in a long fight. I wouldn't get my hopes up though for them to simply remove the MP cost while keeping all of our other advantages (no shared cooldown for one). I'd rather have the MP, because you are right it is manageable.

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arent peirce full thrust and heavy thrust also on different timer?

i dont really get your point,
and the point is light strike isnt trifurcate, it doesnt give us 3 turns worth of dmg, in one shot, and multibuff stacking, it doesnt make us invulnerable, hell id pay 20 mp for speed surge. If there was some reason why the basic skill was so great it needed to cost mp, i would be like ok, but it really isnt that great. we dont get speed surge, we dont get steadfast (increased parry rate, defensive buff, and offensive buff to many WS) we dont get a shield that reduces dmg by like half, and we dont get multishot, and ranged dmg advantage. How is it balanced that pugilist pays mp, for thier basic mechanic, we arent talking about a weapon skill you never have to use here, we are talking about something you will probably need to press every 30 seconds, no matter what your role, and other classes get all that stuff for no cost, and similar benefit.

hell do mages even pay for thier basic attacks?

I'm not arguing the fantasy/magical attack point anymore. It doesn't make sense simply because other classes using similar skills do not require MP. Other skills and abilities that give similar effects do not require MP. Why should a few Pugilist attack skills be singled out in requiring MP? Within the world's rules it doesn't make sense.

What other classes have shared cooldowns on attacks? The only one I can think of is Archer with Light Shot and Close Shot (which isn't even a guild marks gained attack).

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I'm not arguing the fantasy/magical attack point anymore. It doesn't make sense simply because other classes using similar skills do not require MP. Other skills and abilities that give similar effects do not require MP. Why should a few Pugilist attack skills be singled out in requiring MP? Within the world's rules it doesn't make sense.

What other classes have shared cooldowns on attacks? The only one I can think of is Archer with Light Shot and Close Shot (which isn't even a guild marks gained attack).

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not to mention the shared cool down is equal to thier bow delay, ome i have to wait 4 seconds! say hello to 30 seconds chump.

Maybe Chakra is otw for PUG.


In FFT Chakra gave monks HP and MP back.
Something like 25% of your total HP and 20% of your recovered HP with a recast of 3 mins wouldn't be bad.
So if you have 2000HP Chakra would give you 500HP and 100MP back.

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

Maybe Chakra is otw for PUG.


In FFT Chakra gave monks HP and MP back.
Something like 25% of your total HP and 20% of your recovered HP with a recast of 3 mins wouldn't be bad.
So if you have 2000HP Chakra would give you 500HP and 100MP back.

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maybe for monk, but pug isnt monk though. i could see if they reduced the recast timers on the skills, then it would need some other resource to manage it, but its the same 30 30 60 that lnc has.

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Originally Posted by Physic

not to mention the shared cool down is equal to thier bow delay, ome i have to wait 4 seconds! say hello to 30 seconds chump.

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Well Archer's auto attack isn't quite the same as ours. The whole argument here is that we are unfairly punished in comparison with other classes.

I just think if you look at the other classes basic attacks they either aren't as good (heavy thrust and pierce are not as good as flurry or pummel) or they share a timer, which is why we got a minor MP cost. I'd simply rather have an MP cost you can manage rather than a different restriction or nerf in its place that would be far worse for our balance in comparison.

Siphon mp and stygian spikes works wonders on pug i never run outa mp period!

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Originally Posted by Murugan

....I just think if you look at the other classes basic attacks they either aren't as good.....

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Can you explain why they aren't as good as Flurry or Pummel?

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I just think if you look at the other classes basic attacks they either aren't as good (heavy thrust and pierce are not as good as flurry or pummel) or they share a timer, which is why we got a minor MP cost. I'd simply rather have an MP cost you can manage rather than a different restriction or nerf in its place that would be far worse for our balance in comparison.

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Since you want to talk LNC vs PGL:

Basic Skill Type----------Pugilist--------------Lancer

Attack + Effect------------Light Strike--------Heavy Thrust

Extra TP--------------------Pummel------------Full Thrust

Extra Damage----------------Flurry--------------Pierce

It all looks balanced to me.... until you suddenly add MP costs to Pummel and Light Strike for no apparent reason.

I suppose some visual aid may help.

while its not optimal stygian spikes helps out a lot while solo.

The mp cost do not bother me at all in between fights while running i get 30 mp back just fine....

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

Maybe Chakra is otw for PUG.


In FFT Chakra gave monks HP and MP back.
Something like 25% of your total HP and 20% of your recovered HP with a recast of 3 mins wouldn't be bad.
So if you have 2000HP Chakra would give you 500HP and 100MP back.

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Second Wind was supposed to be called Chakra in FFXIV but they changed that.Sauce. There's my Steal too <_<;;

Yes, lets have random people jump in and say "30 mp is not a big deal" some more.

-Yes, we understand "30 mp is manageable." The point is it puts a limitation on only one class' TP gaining skills. Its a matter of consistency.

-Yes, we're all aware of the spell Stygian Spikes.

-Yes, we realize alot of people don't care to read the discussion before posting.

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Originally Posted by hotah

Yes, lets have random people jump in and say "30 mp is not a big deal" some more.

-Yes, we understand "30 mp is manageable." The point is it puts a limitation on only one class' TP gaining skills. Its a matter of consistency.


-Yes, we're all aware of the spell Stygian Spikes.

-Yes, we realize alot of people don't care to read the discussion before posting.

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I read every post in here and it's not rly that big of a deal if it was every pug in the game would post here

Is it that big of a deal to remove it to keep things consistent?

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Originally Posted by Firon

I read every post in here and it's not rly that big of a deal if it was every pug in the game would post here

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No, they wouldn't.

The problem isn't how big of a deal it is. It isn't a big deal. I can deal with it well, and generally with no issue.

It may not be a big issue, but it is an issue. The skills used to require no MP cost, and were perfectly balanced with other classes. Now they suddenly cost MP.

If they simply explain why they did this, I would maybe accept it. Until then, it is an unnecessary nerf. I can manage many things. I just don't want to manage something I shouldn't have to.

That's exactly what I think about it Noctis. I was hoping for hearing an official reason behind this.

Agreed.. This is a clear handicap, when out of mp, cannot play the class normally.
Needs to be removed or at the very least have some mp regen trait or ability.
Would be good to have Chakra ability recovering both hp and mp.

While it's true MP is manageable that's not the problem. The problem is it's unfair to put MP requirements on ONLY Pugilist when the attacks do nothing you can't achieve with other skills or abilities. Again Featherfoot gives you the same buff effect as Light Strike except it's much better however it requires no MP. Other classes have increased damage attacks that don't require any MP.

I recently ran into a problem fighting in the Darkhold where I could no longer participate in certain battle regimens because I had no MP and Flurry still cannot be used in them. War classes should not lose that much functionality when out of MP. You essentially then have to rely on auto-attack and the Flurry with its minute-long cooldown.

Agreed. I hate it - there is no reason for it to be there. We've become the red-headed step child of the game.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Since you want to talk LNC vs PGL:

Basic Skill Type----------Pugilist--------------Lancer

Attack + Effect------------Light Strike--------Heavy Thrust

Extra TP--------------------Pummel------------Full Thrust

Extra Damage----------------Flurry--------------Pierce

It all looks balanced to me.... until you suddenly add MP costs to Pummel and Light Strike for no apparent reason.

I suppose some visual aid may help.

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A half second bind is balanced with light strike? I didn't realize that light strike was completely useless.

And pierce does damage to an enemy in between you and your target, flurry gives an extra attack. I'd take flurry in 99% of all situations.

Honestly, I normally wouldn't have a problem with people trying to get a boost for the class I play. But I'm worried you are laying it on a little thick with the "woe is me", what I don't want is a restructure of these abilities that leaves us actually handicapped or "red headed stepchildren" (drama!) rather than something as trivial as a little MP.

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Originally Posted by hotah

Yes, lets have random people jump in and say "30 mp is not a big deal" some more.

-Yes, we understand "30 mp is manageable." The point is it puts a limitation on only one class' TP gaining skills. Its a matter of consistency.

-Yes, we're all aware of the spell Stygian Spikes.

-Yes, we realize alot of people don't care to read the discussion before posting.

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I'm not a random person, I'm a pugilist main and have been since Sept 22, 2010. I've been 50 since January, are you 50 pugilist yet on another character? Cause it looks to me like you are an archer who got pummel two weeks ago, has never played pugilist in darkhold or any difficult encounter where this stuff is actually an issue worth complaining about. Maybe you should stop talking for "us", because I for one don't agree with your level of panic over this, or your proposed solutions.

Add a very small amount of MP to second wind, problem solved. Best solution in the thread. Also rename it Chakra. With such a short recast Second Wind doesn't really fit anymore anyways. Oh and fix flurry in Battle Regimen please you forgot to turn off a switch somewhere when you changed it in 1.18.

Those MP costs are fine. You get free TP from them, good enough for me.

But for what Lancer does it makes sense and is a damage increasing ability. Lancers have a focus on pierce based attacks, Pugilists have a focus on single target attacks.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I'm not a random person, I'm a pugilist main and have been since Sept 22, 2010. I've been 50 since January, are you 50 pugilist yet on another character? Cause it looks to me like you are an archer who got pummel two weeks ago, has never played pugilist in darkhold or any difficult encounter where this stuff is actually an issue worth complaining about. Maybe you should stop talking for "us", because I for one don't agree with your level of panic over this, or your proposed solutions.

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First off, who's panicking? I'm asking for a valid reason to these MP values to be there. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason for it. My only proposed solution is to remove the MP value and bring it inline with the other similar abilities in game.

But about me being an archer main... yeah, that has alot to do with my powers of observation. You're absolutely correct: I have not had Pummel nearly long enough to realize exactly how MP on the skill is justified. You win.

If you'd like to know my favorite color, it's red. I am not sure if that has any relevance to this topic either, but give it a shot.

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Originally Posted by Hotohori

I don't understand the reasoning behind those MP costs on those skills either. But if it makes any pugilists feel better, Close Shot and Light Shot share a reuse timer which pretty much gives archers only Light and Heavy Shot. The range requirement for using Close Shot makes it not even worth a space in an action bar now, even though it is free of cost to equip.

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I'd like to point out that ARC autoattack is close-range, Close Shot is mid-range, and Light Shot is long-range. Now heres something good to know, if its viable to work in mid-range, then you can use Close Shot as your normal attack. BUT you can also stack arrows with Multishot while your doing Close Shot. Meaning you can still do your Multishot+Multishot+Buff+Light Shot, just with a few Close Shots inbetween the Multishots while you wait on its CD timer. ARC is still OP :P

And yes, MP cost on PUG attacks is retarded. Although i haven't really played as PUG since patch, so i cant really make a good argument why/why not.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

A half second bind is balanced with light strike? I didn't realize that light strike was completely useless.

And pierce does damage to an enemy in between you and your target, flurry gives an extra attack. I'd take flurry in 99% of all situations.

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While I agree Light Strike is better than Heavy thrust, I gotta point out that 1 Lancer attack is about the same damage if not more than 1 Pugilist attack with 2 hits. So generally speaking Pierce will do more damage than Flurry and can hit every enemy in an enemy party if positioned correctly. Also from my own testing as both LNC and PUG 50, Full Thrust grants a little more tp than Pummel (although Pummel does a little more damage).

Personally I don't mind the mp on Light Strike, I don't think it should cost mp.... but I don't mind it. Mainly because it provides a buff. The mp cost on Pummel however is ridiculous, it's literally no better than Full Thrust.

I like the idea of Second Wind restoring a little mp too. They could also just raise the base mp on PUG by a little. It's manageble and all, but having to pop ethers is just lame.....

I don't really think having the mp costs on those skills makes the class in any way harder to play, just makes it different (and less fun for me).

not happy with the mp cost? 60 sec recast for everything and take it away, bet u're gonna like it more

Flurry already has a 60 second recast. In fact all the recasts are now comparable to attacks from other classes, except Pugilists also have MP costs. Try again.