Dear god increase the autoattack speed of marauder..

Personally I think a class shouldn't be great at everything. Marauder is tailored to dealing being great at multi mob situations. And I really believe they're doing just fine.

True. Classes shouldn't be good at everything. I was thinking in broad terms of PT/solo situations e.g. How a MRDs multi-mob situation doesn't crop up very much when solo'ing, fighting the majority of NMs (single targets) and bosses like Orge (again, single target).

I do love how MRD can cause havoc across an area with moves like Storm's Path, but most high rank PTs currently require more single target DDs and MRD gets over looked. It could be argued that this is helpful in places like Dzemael where there are mobs all round, yet most PTs will skip the mobs to run to Ogre to kill him in time to get to Batrall, leaving MRDs multi-mob attacks kind of unnecessary.
MRD can still be a tank in those single target situations as you said but either due to GLA actually being better or the mindset of it being better (which I may be in also until I know it for a fact via witnessing both classes first hand or via video), people will still choose GLA because it outshines MRD.

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Originally Posted by Narctiss

True. Classes shouldn't be good at everything. I was thinking in broad terms of PT/solo situations e.g. How a MRDs multi-mob situation doesn't crop up very much when solo'ing, fighting the majority of NMs (single targets) and bosses like Orge (again, single target).

I do love how MRD can cause havoc across an area with moves like Storm's Path, but most high rank PTs currently require more single target DDs and MRD gets over looked. It could be argued that this is helpful in places like Dzemael where there are mobs all round, yet most PTs will skip the mobs to run to Ogre to kill him in time to get to Batrall, leaving MRDs multi-mob attacks kind of unnecessary.
MRD can still be a tank in those single target situations as you said but either due to GLA actually being better or the mindset of it being better (which I may be in also until I know it for a fact via witnessing both classes first hand or via video), people will still choose GLA because it outshines MRD.

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Agree! (again). The thing is that MRD is like RDM was in FFXI...it could DD, it could tank...but in neither of these roles he can excel the class designed for this. MRD turf aways was AoE...that's where it would rule...but with the changes he also lost this spot to classes like ARC, LNC and PGL, even though they are designed to be one-on-one classes.

Right now MRD is in a very delicated situation where he does not excel in anything...anyone can outdamage MRD, anyone can kill faster than MRD, anyone can offer a better AoE damage output than MRD...and about tanking...MRD always was situational for when we had many weak monsters...it just cannot be more than a Off-tank when we are taking about single target. You know...even Warmonger was brilliant regarding AoE tanking...because it popped an AoE provoke to cluster nearby monster and a temporary enmity generation boost for AoEs...but when you lose the AoE you lose everything...right now you can do 1 broad/full only before warmonger effect wears off.

You should play your Marauder more. I really don't get why you have that perception right now, when you do have one at 50.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

You should play your Marauder more. I really don't get why you have that perception right now, when you do have one at 50.

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I wish i could play MRD more...its by far my fav class. But i feel ashamed in being filler in parties just because need 8 members or to trigger full party buff. I want to do what its expect from it to do...not what this patch limited it to...i don't want to be a spot filler, leecher or what else you would call it.

If you read the threads prior 1.18 you will see me defending MRD with passion against anyone trying to talk bad about it...this because the class was awesome for what it was meant to be...and now its nothing. If you think i like saying this kind of thing, think again...i love this class more than any other in this game...so i can't stand SE killing it because they actually didn't know how the class worked. Whoever did MRD adjustments for 1.18 never EVER played it...or he would've known how negative these changes would be.

But Bay confirmed that 1.18a is OTW (always Bay to say what i wanna hear...that why i love that Morbol!)...so let's hope MRD punishment end in one week and, once again, it can become the frenzy berserker it was meant to be from the start! /o/

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Originally Posted by Irana

Its like one attack every 5 seconds...

we go from DD to "that moron that stands in place looking at the sky till he remembers he has to attack".

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5sec is good :S
i think i was staring at the mob face front for near 30 sec.....just standing ...as pug

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Originally Posted by Lienn

With this patch i started thinking this game really will become FFXI again...where you might have 20 jobs, but for serious business like 3~4 only are allowed and the rest will just be a burden.

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This is the main problem right here. To many players want this. This games basics are not similar, so stop asking for it. Mages said I want WHM/BLM, now all they do is cry like school girls with a skent knee, cause some of them were so sure CON was gonna get BLM (don't ask me what moron thinks the cure/protect/shell class would be anything less them WHM)

Don't beg for changes toward FFXI, then cry when you get them. I am not calingFFXI a bad game, but it wasn't spectacular either.

veryone asked for changes, everyone said fix this and fix that, but few if any specifically offered ideas on what and how to adjust spells/abilities. If you never offered and exact formula or layout yourself, then you got what you deserved if your unhappy.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

This is the main problem right here. To many players want this. This games basics are not similar, so stop asking for it. Mages said I want WHM/BLM, now all they do is cry like school girls with a skent knee, cause some of them were so sure CON was gonna get BLM (don't ask me what moron thinks the cure/protect/shell class would be anything less them WHM)

Don't beg for changes toward FFXI, then cry when you get them. I am not calingFFXI a bad game, but it wasn't spectacular either.

veryone asked for changes, everyone said fix this and fix that, but few if any specifically offered ideas on what and how to adjust spells/abilities. If you never offered and exact formula or layout yourself, then you got what you deserved if your unhappy.

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Exactly, man! That's why i opoosed any/all drastic changes dev team offered at polls...but these polls were so malicious and the playerbase was so frustrated with the bad release that the result was certain to be this one.

Now i do what i can...i keep tossing feedback in a regular-basis in a try to protect the very little that lasted from original FFXIV...but the problem is that, even tho many here already even quit FFXIV, they still toss feedback like they were playing and the community reps accept their feedback (no matter how stupid it is) just like they accept feedback from me or you...they cannot disguise those that just want to randomly complain and that aren't even playing anymore from mule accounts used for self support or from serious players offering serious feedback.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

.
...but the problem is that, even tho many here already even quit FFXIV, they still toss feedback like they were playing and the community reps accept their feedback (no matter how stupid it is) just like they accept feedback from me or you....

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This is the second largest problem I see on the forums. The only solution to this will come when its time to pay and those who do not have access to accounts lose forums access. Untill then we are stuck with those who would complain about being given gold brick, simply because its not platinum.

I think the attack speed is just fine. You are using a big freaking axe, what you expect? Go look at LNC delay, it isn't much different. Heck, even PGL doesn't have much lower delay.

I mean really, go look at PGL delays on their weapons. They are hurting way more then MRD, considering they are suppose to be very fast attackers. From what I have seen, on average, MRD looks to be only 1 second behind PGLs attacks, and hits a lot harder then both the PGL attacks combined.

This is a problem everyone in all classes are dealing with. Its more of an adjustment then anything. We are all use to being able to pretty much zerg stuff and attack quickly. Which I never did understand how we were able to swing a great axe just as fast as a dagger.

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Originally Posted by Scape

I think the attack speed is just fine. You are using a big freaking axe, what you expect? Go look at LNC delay, it isn't much different. Heck, even PGL doesn't have much lower delay.

I mean really, go look at PGL delays on their weapons. They are hurting way more then MRD, considering they are suppose to be very fast attackers. From what I have seen, on average, MRD looks to be only 1 second behind PGLs attacks, and hits a lot harder then both the PGL attacks combined.

This is a problem everyone in all classes are dealing with. Its more of an adjustment then anything. We are all use to being able to pretty much zerg stuff and attack quickly. Which I never did understand how we were able to swing a great axe just as fast as a dagger.

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You obviously isn't very good noticing the difference of classes, right? You can compare LNC to PGL, not MRD. PGL and LNC are skill-based classes, where the basic actions matter very little. LNC and PLG only used basic attack now and then for a few instants to fill TP (if needed)...that's why AA is good for them. And if you compare again a lance to an axe then its means you don't understand neither LNC or MRD...because lances have greater attack, lower delay and LNCs have Speed Surge, that cuts a beef of its delay. MRD, in other hand, is more like ARC...a class that rely on basic attacks for performance...and right now you just can't do a thing...

Its easy for someone with ARC, LNC and PGL 50 come here and say its all good...because when its time for serious business you change class to a "serious" class. You don't have problems with other classes skipping AA swing because monster moved while it was during AA absurd downtime...because PGL has very fasrt AA...LNC can be a bit slower than PGL if the dude don't use speed surge, but its melee range is way longer than PGL and MRD so if the monster move a bit it will still be in range...archer still reorients automatically due manual basic actions so they have 0% chance of skipping abasic attacks.

MRD NEED to be like ARC, having basic actions with rational recast and having AA like a "if you weren't paying attention" feature, because MRD cannot rely on AA...its just part of the class definition. And if they change it in a way to start relying on AA then they will actually be removing the original MRD class from the game.

I came here with a Mrd Pug Gla Thm Arc at 50 and still say it's all good. For the "serious business" I even changed from Gla to Mrd, because it's better.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

You obviously isn't very good noticing the difference of classes, right? You can compare LNC to PGL, not MRD. PGL and LNC are skill-based classes, where the basic actions matter very little. LNC and PLG only used basic attack now and then for a few instants to fill TP (if needed)...that's why AA is good for them. And if you compare again a lance to an axe then its means you don't understand neither LNC or MRD...because lances have greater attack, lower delay and LNCs have Speed Surge, that cuts a beef of its delay. MRD, in other hand, is more like ARC...a class that rely on basic attacks for performance...and right now you just can't do a thing...

Its easy for someone with ARC, LNC and PGL 50 come here and say its all good...because when its time for serious business you change class to a "serious" class. You don't have problems with other classes skipping AA swing because monster moved while it was during AA absurd downtime...because PGL has very fasrt AA...LNC can be a bit slower than PGL if the dude don't use speed surge, but its melee range is way longer than PGL and MRD so if the monster move a bit it will still be in range...archer still reorients automatically due manual basic actions so they have 0% chance of skipping abasic attacks.

MRD NEED to be like ARC, having basic actions with rational recast and having AA like a "if you weren't paying attention" feature, because MRD cannot rely on AA...its just part of the class definition. And if they change it in a way to start relying on AA then they will actually be removing the original MRD class from the game.

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Whatever. stop complaining. MRD is very good DD. You think they are not just because you have a delay on your weapon that is pretty much the same delay all other DD got stuck with? I don't have to do anything on my "serious" class, whatever that is. I have done the R45 dungeon and completed it with using my R44 MRD as well. I like the class so much I am thinking about making it my main. Its a very simple and straight forward class to use compared to the other melee.

You pretty much ignored all I said in my post though. really you think PUG has very fast AA? As a 50 PUG I can tell you its not. It's almost the same delay MRD gets. Then you go on about LNC melee range. You play LNC? The system is messed up and without trying, LNC actually steps closer to the mob and you have to constantly move yourself back, and even so, at max LNC range, you still get hit by any AOE so its kinda /meh.

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archer still reorients automatically due manual basic actions so they have 0% chance of skipping abasic attacks.

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and huh? what you mean 0% chance of skipping basic attacks? You skip attacks on MRD? And of course Archer does not have ranged attack AA and has to fire manually still(4.5s+ delay). Could you picture Archers if they had AA ranged attack? They would basically be accidentally shooting everything that is with in their range. It just wouldn't work very well. on average, Archer delay is same or slower then what MRDs have on Great Axes. Plus, Archers don't have the advantage of AA firing off their weapon for them as soon as its ready. An Archer delay can turn into much longer if for whatever reason, they are not pressing their attack at the right moment.

It's just annoying when you have people who act like they were the only class who got effected by the update. I didn't realize MRD was so popular before the patch....

Kuma, good for you if you have friends good enough to not even bother you changing class to your party filler class.

And Scape, i'm almost thanking you for the laughs your post stole from me. It was very "entertaining"...specially regarding ARC having ranged AA. If/when they fix MRD for good i might come back and copy some posts from this topic so when, in the future, me and my friends talk about nostaugic moments from when the game still sucked i can also quote you guys.

But seriously...if you guys are OK with this change this means that you never actually understood the class...you guys might be just playing it like all others...using as MRD the very same actions (obviously not talking about WS) you use as LNC, PGL or ARC and playing it as a gimp version of these classes.

Originally the game had 5 classes melee that, even though they could share actions, had unique playstyles. You CAN play they all in the very same way (which probably is what you're doing) but they are different classes still. The mechanics, actions, basic actions, weapon and equipments attributs of each class reflect this difference.

In FFXI you can dress a WAR/NIN exactly like a NIN, equip 2 axes and pretend it was a NIN...but it isn't. The core concept of WAR is diffferent from NIN. Even if you play it like if it was a NIN, its still a WAR. Here, tho, with the possibility of only sharding certains actions instead of the entire set subjob offered in FFXI, this difference became a bit less noticeable...here you can gear your MRD like a LNC and pretend it is a LNC...you have access to many more actions from LNC here than you would from NIN as WAR/NIN in FFXI...but even if you play this way...even if you actually succeed in "playing LNC" as MRD, its still not a LNC...its a MRD...and the core concept of MRD is completely different from LNC. Its like i said...a LNC can be compared to PGL. Their core concept is different, but their battle concept is very similar...MRD and ARC are just like it...while the core concept from them is different, the battle concept is very similar.

If you cannot see this difference then you will never understand what i'm talking about.

The recent changes are only serving to highlight Mrd's weakness when it comes to one on one combat. Something i and a lot of other have been talking about for a long while now. Axe's lack the Punch to Compensate for the delay and low accuracy.

I would like to partialy retract what i said about full swing in my previous post. while the delay on it is still pretty prohibitive, after working it into my loadout it is helping to bridge the gap in tp generation, at least vs multiple opponents

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Kuma, good for you if you have friends good enough to not even bother you changing class to your party filler class.

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Yes tanking Ogre & Batraal on filler class, right... They're that good... It has nothing to do with Marauder, right...

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Originally the game had 5 classes melee that, even though they could share actions, had unique playstyles. You CAN play they all in the very same way (which probably is what you're doing) but they are different classes still. The mechanics, actions, basic actions, weapon and equipments attributs of each class reflect this difference.

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You're the one denying Marauder's unique playstyle! You don't accept the class for what it really is! A few posts earlier you said it had to be played like Arc!

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

You're the one denying Marauder's unique playstyle! You don't accept the class for what it really is! A few posts earlier you said it had to be played like Arc!

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It does. ARC and MRD share a very similar battle concept regarding action. But its what i already said a few times...if you cannot see the difference between the way MRD and LNC/PGL fight then you won't understand what i'm saying...

Right now is like i'm trying to explain how "yellow" is to someone that born blind. So before replying again do me a favor...think about MRD and ARC, think about their actions, their basic actions, the way their actions effects are set...but this all prior 1.18.

Think about why MRD has warmonger instead of a provoke-like action, why MRD has murderous instict instead of a attack boost action, why it has both broad and full swing so similar (except by enmity generation), why only MRD has Heavy swing-like basic action, an action that strictly improves its default basic attack, but generating no additional effect, why bloodbath works the way it does, etc.

Maybe if you feel like trying to understand the concept MRD was built on then you start seeing my "yellow". I coulld try and explain it here...but i believe that after 2 pages of arguing nothing i say would convince you anymore...so try understanding it by yourself.

And about tanking ogre and Batraal, its exactly what i replied to Scape in my last post...but i guess you stopped reading at "party filler" part. You can still tank USING MRD, but you cannot tank AS MRD anymore. Even if you succeed tanking as MRD, the way you tanked was, probably, the GLA way of tanking...and yes, there is a difference here too...we actually have 3 different tanking concepts in this game...all 3 derivated from FFXI. You have GLA with the PLD style, you have PGL with the NIN style and you have MRD with WAR style. Incase you played FFXI, can you distinguish this 3 styles? If you don't, no problem...many others cannot too...a classic example of someone that cannot distinguish these 3 styles is Peregrine...search her posts in this forum later on and you will see...for her, WAR never was a tank in FFXI and neither was MRD in FFXIV.

If they speed up MRDs attacks... they will need to speed up everyone elses too. Keep that in mind. I mean really, you guys chose to play the class with the heaviest dang weapons lol. MRD will, and always should be, the slowest attacking class. I could see something like Musketeer with a gun being slower perhaps, but not much else. Lets also not forget that on the other side of things MRD does hit harder per hit then any other class.

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Originally Posted by Scape

If they speed up MRDs attacks... they will need to speed up everyone elses too. Keep that in mind. I mean really, you guys chose to play the class with the heaviest dang weapons lol. MRD will, and always should be, the slowest attacking class. I could see something like Musketeer with a gun being slower perhaps, but not much else. Lets also not forget that on the other side of things MRD does hit harder per hit then any other class.

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they can keep the weapons slow, if they increase the dmg, or the aoe regular attack options. but as it is, it just falls behind in a lot of respects DD wise, and since it has some tp tanking moves, thats not so great either.

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Originally Posted by Irana

Its like one attack every 5 seconds...

we go from DD to "that moron that stands in place looking at the sky till he remembers he has to attack".

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Unfortunately i agree. MRD is dead right now...you just stay there and watch real DD fighting now...today i went to help a friend with Kokoroon...God lofd i never felt so depressed with a class as i did this time...as PLG the dude raped Kokoroon while i just watched it...also, Heavy swing seems to be with broken accuracy...not only its not even close to worth using due the completely retard recast time but it also miss almost every time.

Now i cannot DD, cannot tank (since MRd tanking idea was based on FFXI's WAR idea, where the enmity come from DPS instead of skills), cannot fight multiple monsters anymore...hell...i cannot even store TP anymore...Maim is just a myth now since we cannot store 3k TP before stuff is dead anymore...

My hope is that Matsui notice the size of the s*** he did and fix MRD. If we can have Heavy swing recast down to 2~5 sec (use MP is needed...i'd even pay the action usage with HP if needed! But MRD NEEDS heavy swing fast and useful!) it would bring MRD back to business...even if heavy swing could only be used with steadfast up...i don't care about the restrictions...i just want it FAST and RELIABLE again so i can resume doing my role in parties! >_<

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THIS !!! F**** THIS!!! After I came to FFXIV with new battle system I HATE it! Literally this is some utterly BS... I never saw an not-enjoyable battle system like that in any of jRPG's I've played (including tons of FF games)... please do something with this! This is just ridiculous! (yes I'm Marauder). Today I've rage-quit the game because of this Battle System... I never complained on this game, But I'm I'm RAGING with ANGER !! Because of this battle system!!

With All my Heart: I HATE THIS BATTLE SYSTEM!!!!!

PS1: I'm stopping here before I'll get angry again... I told myself I will give this battle system 6 chances before I will RAGE about it... 4 more chances left...

PS2: I want to do something In battle not stand like a moron and sleep... or die... Like I'm doing now but didn't done before...

PS3: Give the Basic Auto-Attack, attack to action bar... Now to start battle we need as follows:

1) Activate Active Mode
2) Select Mob
3) Lock On onto it to face him straight with our eyes
4) Activate Action bar so it will be on screen
5) Get close to mob
6) Wait for Our character to Attack( Yes our character to attack by herself!)

or we can do it the other way but it will mean we will stand looking at the sky in battle doing nothing for more time:

1) Select Mob
2) Select Skill with 60 seconds recast time...
3) Have Fun standing around looking at the flower after couple WS'es

Of cores the first method have waiting as well... Last time I needed to Wait about 15-20 fricking seconds on boss in dungeon to do anything!! Not to mention what have been mentioned that AA should be faster...

Anyway, it's really annoying to start battle like that... There are loots of games that have aa on basic attacking skill but for god's sake you need to press it at last ONCE to attack a mob...

Also To remind you how was it in system before this one:

1) Select Mob
2) Click on attack skill to begin battle.

whoa calm down there, your delay is not that dang slow lol. Every other class has to sit there and wait too. You act like you have to wait 10 seconds to attack while everyone else is spamming attacks.

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I'm I'm RAGING with ANGER !!

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:D

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1) Activate Active Mode
2) Select Mob
3) Lock On onto it to face him straight with our eyes
4) Activate Action bar so it will be on screen
5) Get close to mob
6) Wait for Our character to Attack( Yes our character to attack by herself!)

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1) umm ya, you should definitely want to pull your weapon out if you want to use it
2) who would of thunk it!? We gotta target something first!
3) You do not have to lock on at all
4) you can go to configuration and set your action bar to stay on screen
5) You mean we gotta get within attacking distance too!? Crazy! The nerve!!!!!
6) duh?

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or we can do it the other way but it will mean we will stand looking at the sky in battle doing nothing for more time:

1) Select Mob
2) Select Skill with 60 seconds recast time...
3) Have Fun standing around looking at the flower after couple WS'es

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Meanwhile, all the people who actually pulled their weapons out and started attacking already, are laughing at you.


I mean really? These are the types of people who complain about FFXIV. Its nuts.

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Originally Posted by Feldt

THIS !!! F**** THIS!!! After I came to FFXIV with new battle system I HATE it! Literally this is some utterly BS... I never saw an not-enjoyable battle system like that in any of jRPG's I've played (including tons of FF games)... please do something with this! This is just ridiculous! (yes I'm Marauder). Today I've rage-quit the game because of this Battle System... I never complained on this game, But I'm I'm RAGING with ANGER !! Because of this battle system!!

With All my Heart: I HATE THIS BATTLE SYSTEM!!!!!

PS1: I'm stopping here before I'll get angry again... I told myself I will give this battle system 6 chances before I will RAGE about it... 4 more chances left...

PS2: I want to do something In battle not stand like a moron and sleep... or die... Like I'm doing now but didn't done before...

PS3: Give the Basic Auto-Attack, attack to action bar... Now to start battle we need as follows:

1) Activate Active Mode
2) Select Mob
3) Lock On onto it to face him straight with our eyes
4) Activate Action bar so it will be on screen
5) Get close to mob
6) Wait for Our character to Attack( Yes our character to attack by herself!)

or we can do it the other way but it will mean we will stand looking at the sky in battle doing nothing for more time:

1) Select Mob
2) Select Skill with 60 seconds recast time...
3) Have Fun standing around looking at the flower after couple WS'es

Of cores the first method have waiting as well... Last time I needed to Wait about 15-20 fricking seconds on boss in dungeon to do anything!! Not to mention what have been mentioned that AA should be faster...

Anyway, it's really annoying to start battle like that... There are loots of games that have aa on basic attacking skill but for god's sake you need to press it at last ONCE to attack a mob...

Also To remind you how was it in system before this one:

1) Select Mob
2) Click on attack skill to begin battle.

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I agree completely. My first reaction when i saw MRD was exactly this one. And the more i fight the less i want to draw my weapon again. MRD was specially frustrating, but when i talk about the battle system i talk about it as a whole...i already played with all my classes and just couldn't find one that could, at least, not annoy me during battle.

IMO right now the game is in the worst state since the release and, for the first time, i wouldn't be willing to pay a subscription fee to play it. I know its was just the skelleton of the new battle system and that they will do many adjust in the next weeks...i also am sure they noticed that they f'ed up the game in a tremendous way when we're talking about endgame (its pretty much limited to 3 classes now...ARC, CON and GLA) and that the next patch will bring balance back to it....and that's exactly why i'm here still...pure and simple blind faith on them.

I do believe that Yoshida knows what he's doing and that he only need more time before the game real go back in shape...but at same time all this babbling do not make me feel better. Right now i just want to quit...its only this faith that makes me still give the game a new chance every day instead of quitting.

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its pretty much limited to 3 classes now...ARC, CON and GLA

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no way. It is just a misconception by a lot of people who don't know any better. Devs didn't set it up to be like this, the players are the ones who have turned it into that. You need to go prove these people wrong, instead of proving them right by complaining about how much your class sucks.

example, just today we beat Ogre, completed our quests, and made it to the last fight... with THM, THM, CON, ARC, ARC, PGL, MRD, MRD. We did this set up twice, both with no deaths until the final fight in the dungeon. First with PGL tank and second with MRD tank. Worked like a charm, no hate problems at all and I find it a much faster fight then with a GLA tank. Probably due to the much higher damage output of PGL and MRD. Our melee do not stand back with the Archers during the Ogre fight. They get in there and get their hands dirty. They are smart enough to know where to stand though and how to get away from Inferno drop. The reason why a lot of people don't bother with some melees is honestly... not a lot of them are very good. The game has trained us to be sloppy and a lot of players have a hard time paying attention to where to stand and what moves to watch out for and how to get out of it without being an MP sponge. It's amazing how something so easy can be so difficult for so many people.

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Originally Posted by Scape

no way. It is just a misconception by a lot of people who don't know any better. Devs didn't set it up to be like this, the players are the ones who have turned it into that. You need to go prove these people wrong, instead of proving them right by complaining about how much your class sucks.

example, just today we beat Ogre, completed our quests, and made it to the last fight... with THM, THM, CON, ARC, ARC, PGL, MRD, MRD. We did this set up twice, both with no deaths until the final fight in the dungeon. First with PGL tank and second with MRD tank. Worked like a charm, no hate problems at all and I find it a much faster fight then with a GLA tank. Probably due to the much higher damage output of PGL and MRD. Our melee do not stand back with the Archers during the Ogre fight. They get in there and get their hands dirty. They are smart enough to know where to stand though and how to get away from Inferno drop. The reason why a lot of people don't bother with some melees is honestly... not a lot of them are very good. The game has trained us to be sloppy and a lot of players have a hard time paying attention to where to stand and what moves to watch out for and how to get out of it without being an MP sponge. It's amazing how something so easy can be so difficult for so many people.

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I'll agree with most of this post (I think I have higher opinions of melee than you do, though :p). Just got to the last fight with CON CON PGL PGL LNC ARC MRD. . . another CON? I don't really remember. Just remember that I was PGL tanking, and it was great. As long as I stayed on top of Accomplice, there were no aggro issues, and as long as I rotated abilities properly I wasn't in much danger of dying. Even then, I'm missing a fair number of tanking abilites I should have (yay 38 MRD and 27 GLA); having them can only improve my survivability and help the casters. . .

That notwithstanding, though, I'm still not fond of the delay in MRD's AA. :p

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Originally Posted by Scape

no way. It is just a misconception by a lot of people who don't know any better. Devs didn't set it up to be like this, the players are the ones who have turned it into that. You need to go prove these people wrong, instead of proving them right by complaining about how much your class sucks.

example, just today we beat Ogre, completed our quests, and made it to the last fight... with THM, THM, CON, ARC, ARC, PGL, MRD, MRD. We did this set up twice, both with no deaths until the final fight in the dungeon. First with PGL tank and second with MRD tank. Worked like a charm, no hate problems at all and I find it a much faster fight then with a GLA tank. Probably due to the much higher damage output of PGL and MRD. Our melee do not stand back with the Archers during the Ogre fight. They get in there and get their hands dirty. They are smart enough to know where to stand though and how to get away from Inferno drop. The reason why a lot of people don't bother with some melees is honestly... not a lot of them are very good. The game has trained us to be sloppy and a lot of players have a hard time paying attention to where to stand and what moves to watch out for and how to get out of it without being an MP sponge. It's amazing how something so easy can be so difficult for so many people.

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I know...still, its extremely counterproductive playing like this right now. And those that want performance (like 99% of players) will always seek optimal build for events. Originally the game was balanced in a brilliant way IMO...the class you had didn't matter...any tank class could tank in any situation, any melee class could melee in any situation, any mage class could nuke/heal in any situation...it was just fun to play because you could play in any way you wanted...now its just like FFXI...where you have the optimal setup and the "rest"...and this is not fun...this "strategy concept" is what made me hate FFXI so much...instead of using more creative ways of playing, like old RPGs where you couldn't just fight...you had mini-objectives duting fights in order to win like killing monsters in a certain way to be able too win (like Dinine Might...i loved that that fight so much)...but right now FFXIV is the Faust battle over and over...and Faust battle, IMO, was a terribly boring fight.

Again, its just my personal opinion and a large bunch of it does have passional motivation...because i always loved this game...until 1.18.

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That notwithstanding, though, I'm still not fond of the delay in MRD's AA

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meh, my R48 Great axe has lower delay then my Bow for 50ARC. I just find it a bit selfish to see MRDs complaining about having to wait to attack when every other class is having to deal with it too. And for the most part, the delays are very close, its not like MRD is getting screwed while everyone else is getting the hook up. People are really messed up if they think things were better before patch when someone with a huge great axe could attack just as fast as someone with a tiny dagger... it was just silly and I hope this weeds out the bad players who want everything handed to them.

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Originally Posted by Scape

meh, my R48 Great axe has lower delay then my Bow for 50ARC. I just find it a bit selfish to see MRDs complaining about having to wait to attack when every other class is having to deal with it too. And for the most part, the delays are very close, its not like MRD is getting screwed while everyone else is getting the hook up. People are really messed up if they think things were better before patch when someone with a huge great axe could attack just as fast as someone with a tiny dagger... it was just silly and I hope this weeds out the bad players who want everything handed to them.

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I think it's because when I was first getting used to the system, I was having issues with moving through the mob and losing an attack, which never happened in the old system. Playing on it now, it's not too bad. I just need to pick up the other attack abilities to give me something to do at the start of battle, I guess.

The thing about MRD is that it isn't "just" the delay. But since we talking about delay, lemme point why its very behind the others...

GLA: Average 2.6 delay and has ourmaneuver for TP generation.
PGL: Average 3.0 delay and has pummel and flurry for TP generation.
LNC: Average 3.7 delay, but has speed surge II that seems to be dropping it to 3.1, has full thrust for TP and invigorate and Comrade in Arms for even extra TP generation.
MRD: Average 4.0 delay. Has no native action for TP generation against single target.
ARC: Average 4.2 delay. BUt Light shot isn't "just" light shot. Multishot isn't a basic action by its own...its actually part of light shot aswell. So we can say thatyou have a "virtual" 4.2 delay since you actually shot 4 arrows during the delay of 3 shots. So, if we get the 3 shots delay (4.2 x 3) and divide for 4 shots it would actually give you 3.15 delay. Even if we round up the 3 shots delay to match multishot recast (so assuming 3 shots would take 15 seconds), when you divide it for 4 shots you get 3.75 delay. Also, its important to point that ARC has raging strike that increases drastically the TP generation (since TP gain is proportional to damage dealt) and Trifurcate.

I know i'm not being specific...this is just some general example...but you see...MRD actually has averade 1 extra second at delay against every other melee class and no real TP generation action against single target. This makes all the difference...you might ask "Why?"

Let's say everyone started fighting a regular rank 60 monster with 3 rank 50 melees (1 MRD and 2 others)...assume everyone pop their first swing. in like 3 seconds later everyone will be already striking again, which will also offer enough TP for a WS. So, when we reach the 4th second and MRD tries to pop its AA, everyone else already attacked 2 times and popped a WS...so the monster would actually not be alive at the "4th second" for MRD to swing and WS after.

I know MRD can use heavy, broad and full swings for TP...so does the other classes...so i just skipped it from everyone to make a easier to understand example since against a single target it would just make the damage output difference even bigger.

But, anyway, since i we had been talking about MRD for so long...have you guys seen my old old adjustment proposal topic regarding it? ^^ I know its a very old topic...it was actually posted even before the official announcement of AA so yep, i'm talking about stanmina there as class pattern. This is old but it also might be interesting for those willing to understand my point of view regarding the class a bit more (not like anyone actually care about what i think lol). Just please be nice and take into consideration the suggestion date (03/10).

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...n-its-patterns

Its a nice suggestion IMO. If it was done that time, MRD wouldn't be passing by all such harsh trial now.

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ARC: Average 4.2 delay. BUt Light shot isn't "just" light shot. Multishot isn't a basic action by its own...its actually part of light shot aswell. So we can say thatyou have a "virtual" 4.2 delay since you actually shot 4 arrows during the delay of 3 shots. So, if we get the 3 shots delay (4.2 x 3) and divide for 4 shots it would actually give you 3.15 delay. Even if we round up the 3 shots delay to match multishot recast (so assuming 3 shots would take 15 seconds), when you divide it for 4 shots you get 3.75 delay. Also, its important to point that ARC has raging strike that increases drastically the TP generation (since TP gain is proportional to damage dealt) and Trifurcate.

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multishot/trifurcate only shoot 3 arrows, not 4. and you can't divide it up and average it out to 3.15 delay when after nocking just 1 arrow, you have to wait 15 seconds if you want to nock another one. And really, using Raging strike in your argument? My MRD uses Raging Strike too. And again, MRD should be the slowest with TP gain, they should also hit the hardest which they pretty much do. Not to mention no other melee can touch the crowd control damage of MRD.

I mean come on.. really? Look at your argument. You are reaching for straws. Did'n't see you mention how those PGL basic attacks cost them MP to use(not to mention MRD has basic attacks to help with TP too). LNC Comrade in Arms? It costs Lancer 500TP just to use it and it may miss, and it gives people like you in the party a huge TP boost. GLA having outmanouver? They get invited to tank, are not taking a role from you, and they have by far the lowest melee damage output in game.

Yes, MRD is about 1 second slower then the other mele...... which it should be. If you want to attack faster, don't choose a class that carries around 100lbs great axes. lets also not forget that when MRD is in its element, attacking multiple enemies, your TP generation is through the roof and way better then what the other classes can achieve.

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I know MRD can use heavy, broad and full swings for TP...so does the other classes...so i just skipped it from everyone to make a easier to understand example since against a single target it would just make the damage output difference even bigger.

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yep, you skipped them because it would have been counter productive to your argument. Don't worry, I would have mentioned it for ya :)

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Originally Posted by Scape

multishot/trifurcate only shoot 3 arrows, not 4. and you can't divide it up and average it out to 3.15 delay when after nocking just 1 arrow, you have to wait 15 seconds if you want to nock another one.

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I see where Lienn was going with this, I just don't think it was explained well. Even if you only Multishot once before using Light Shot, using Light/Heavy/Multi/Trifurcate can send out ~22 arrows a minute if you're using 4.2 second delay; and only two of those are from Heavy, meaning that your "real" Lightshot cooldown is 3.0 seconds. By comparison, a MRD using Light/Heavy/Broad/Full and a 4.0 second weapon can only send out 19 attacks, not counting AoE hits from Broad/Full. Now, 4 of the 19 attacks are Broad/Full/Heavy, so the "real" Light Swing cooldown is exactly what it says on the tin: 4.0 seconds. Of course, combining all of the attacks gives delays of 2.7 and 3.1/3.2, respectively (~3.15, so round however you wish).

Basically, though, there's not much difference until ARC gets Multishot and Trifurcate, by which time the MRD should have gotten at least one of the attacks, I think. Basically, I think it's only really a problem for people like me who never picked up the extra basic attacks. Like I said in an earlier post though, it's just gonna take some playing around in groups for me to get comfortable with it and for my first impressions to fade.

Lastly, just a random clarification: Flurry = 0 MP, but Light Strike and Pummel = 10 and 20. :(

Yes, i was nocking only 1 arrow. Its like i said...it was just a simple example, without too increased details...i'm just assuming you're shooting when light shot is up and nocking an extra arrow when multishot is up. Also, Raging strike is a valid argument. Shhot 3 arrows with and then without it and compare the TP gain difference. If MRD could charge up to 3 swings and then buff and unleash them, then it would be also considered important as MRD too...but without maximized affinity and only 1 swing the TP gain bonus from Raging strike can just be ignored at MRD.

And if you want i can count the other basic attacks...i was just nice to MRD in ignoring them...because it would be even to extra 3 swings if you use all 3...only pummel and full thrust would already generate more TP than these 3 extra swings...same for trifurcate...again...i was just being nice to MRD...putting these into account would just make it look even worse.

Also, what about comparing GLA too? Because its role is tanking i cannot use it as comparison? Welcome back to FFXI! With half delay its damage output does can be used as comparison....its nearly 2 times faster than MRD...in a DD build it can easily keep up with MRD (not to say it will also have better DPS than MRD).

Anyway...i said i wasn't going to be too specific there. I tried leaving it simple to avoid misundertanding but seens again it wasn't the case. So lemme explain the simple math i did...i counted only the AA for it. ARC had to have multishot taken into consideration because it does is part of light shot mechanics. But all other were using only AA.

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Originally Posted by Taruna-Aeon

Its really not....i can't enjoy Marauder anymore as i used too.... :/ im major disappoint with the attack speed changes.. and the new mp cost of cure spells ; ;

Other than that im completely fine with everything in the patch X_X

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I agree about the MP cost of cure spells, but what do you expect when you're swinging a large axe around? It's about the same delay as the GA in FFXI had, 4-5 seconds and an auto-attack. Granted, my MRD is still very low rank, but I never expected to be a fast attacker when I'm using a large 2-handed weapon. The only issue I have with attack delay is on daggers for GLA, daggers and sword have almost the same delay, when a dagger should be a much faster weapon, or should get multiple attacks to compensate. Weapon delay should reflect their size and whether they are 1- or 2-hand weapons. So I think the delay on MRD is decent (I've used some weapons with a 6-7 second delay in FFXI)

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

for glad i equipped heavy stab to try and build tp faster, i was blown away by the 60 second timer on. just give me my marks back SE.

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with the attacks I purchased with marks, I have 3 manual trigger attacks, and the auto-attack, plus increased TP gain from Outmaneuver, so I don't have any problem with TP gain, and using TP based attacks on GLA.

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Originally Posted by Namynyor

I agree about the MP cost of cure spells, but what do you expect when you're swinging a large axe around? It's about the same delay as the GA in FFXI had, 4-5 seconds and an auto-attack. Granted, my MRD is still very low rank, but I never expected to be a fast attacker when I'm using a large 2-handed weapon. The only issue I have with attack delay is on daggers for GLA, daggers and sword have almost the same delay, when a dagger should be a much faster weapon, or should get multiple attacks to compensate. Weapon delay should reflect their size and whether they are 1- or 2-hand weapons. So I think the delay on MRD is decent (I've used some weapons with a 6-7 second delay in FFXI)

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Well, this is a fantasy game ^^: Weapons here have no weight...or we would never be able to have monkey grip in FF serie...because if a weapon is to heavy to fight well with 2 hands, what about using it with one hand? =P

So i'll put mythril description here...a metal stronger than dragon scales and still lighter than cloth. But indeed would be nice having weight...it was fun at D&D to have STR requeriment at certain weapons because they were "too heavy" for a common dude to fight with...just like he lowering performance as his inventory start getting heavier... ^^

Tera Online might be more for you if you want things that don't make sense, like swinging around a 200lb weapon as if it weighed nothing.

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Originally Posted by Scape

Tera Online might be more for you if you want things that don't make sense, like swinging around a 200lb weapon as if it weighed nothing.

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Why swing it there if i can do it here! ^^ Until weapons receive the weight at their description i just assume they're made of isopor and painted properly like those TV shows! =P

Also, when comes to weight we aso need to think about size too...because a 2-handed axe for a lalafat is an 1-handed axe for a Highlander and a throwing axe for a Roe (lol Roes would be able to throw a lalafaf axe even if the lala was still holding it lol)! Anyway...if the things shrink when they come from a Roe to a lala, why not having extra light weight?

MRD isn't that bad. Can tank decently well and outdamage a GLA tank to boot.

Agreed. The problem with Mar as a tank is damage mitigation. That shield cuts out a ton of damage that a Glad would otherwise take. And since MP costs and enmity from Cure spells have been increased, damage mitigation is really important.

That's not to say that people can't tank on Marauders. They absolutely can, as people in this thread and elsewhere have shown. But it's hard to find a party that's willing to let you try it when there's a Glad available.

I rather have a big increase on damage output since we dont have big hitters classes.

If they want mrd to have slow attacks, they should have more dmg to compensate.

Annnd i still dont see why basic attacks have long delays, it doesnt help any melee class, and reduces job uniquness when those skills lose thier utility due to long cool downs, and just become extra tp moves