PVP Wintrade Exploitation, is this reportable?

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Originally Posted by Elim

You do realize that when the people who win-trade get bored/stop it for the day, most of them do normal PvP.

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Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, but if they do normal PvP when they're bored of win trading, why would they stop doing normal PvP if they can't win trade? They're not really going to throw a tantrum and never PvP again because they can't cheese their way to the top, are they?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

They're not really going to throw a tantrum and never PvP again because they can't cheese their way to the top, are they?

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Yes. Some people will.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

People would actually do that? Win trading works because you win and lose, back to back losing because you're too damn lazy to do anything at all just seems ridiculously stupid. Not to mention it certainly is something you can report players for, where as reporting win traders is still in question.

Still, whether win traders should be dealt with or not wasn't the focus of my post, again; I don't really care what happens to them.

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well the thing is, you can get to max rank by constantly loosing, so if you ban win trade guess what is going to happen ? and you doesn't even have to be afk, just running around spamming tab+1 while watching movie would be enough to no get banned

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Originally Posted by Nalien

People would actually do that?

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aion dreadgion anyone ?

TBH I thought about doing it, cause I wanted some of the armors vor vanity. And PVP is so bad and boring that doing PVP is not something I want to do. It will just not happend. I did it when it come out, and the only fun I had in the hours I did it was laughting about how bad designed it was in TS with the FC member I was playing with.

I ended up not doing it cause I was lazy to find a group and spend some hours doing that boring thing. But can't blame anyone for doing it. I mean... PVP is fucking bad. As long as you are not hacking anything or doing anything illegal, taking advantge over a bad designed death system (This woudn't work if there was a lot of people doing PVP cause in that case you woud not be able to choose wich group you'll face in the match) to get some skins is totally OK for me.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

Group makes 2 parties of 4 and queue up. There are not many people doing PvP (especially the 4-man premade one, or at least it was like that when I played my few rounds during first days of 2.1, most ppl queued with 3 ppl, taking a random healer) and DF puts priority on own server, so the chance of facing the other party is very high. Then they take turns for losing on purpose.

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Thanks for clarifying, and that's what I suspected actually. So if PVP was more desirable win trading couldn't really exist. Ideally the PVP arena would be packed with competition, but at least if people are win trading someone will be available to meet me in a match should I form my own PVP party. Even if they're over-geared it'll be more fun than just queuing for hours.

Ultimately I'm against win trading, but I'm sure many win traders would also prefer to have some healthy competition. We should try to at least sympathize because what motivation do these guys have to invest hours upon hours doing legit battles with each other when there is no sign of any other groups participating for real competition. I can't blame them for focusing on the PVP rewards over the non-existent PVP gameplay in this case.

I hope the devs can bring PVP to life, but unfortunately I don't have a suggestion for that since the new gear seems to have not had the desired effect.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Yes. Some people will.

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Key word here. Some will, sure. All of them though? Nope.

If you have 80 people doing PvP "properly", and 160 off in their own little bubble win trading, if you pop that bubble and some leave, you're still going to have a fair amount joining the rest of us. Even if 75% of them out right quit PvP, that's still more people queue for real matches, which is a positive. I really doubt it would negatively impact the rest of us, unless people really would just AFK for a loss instead, though even that can be spun as a positive. More people queue, albeit to AFK and lose, means shorter queue times, and while it would suck to have someone AFK on your team, it doesn't for the opposite team (unless they too have someone AFKing, in which its an equal field).

How do people even know that win trading is going on??? Do they have their cool vanity armour before you do? Maybe they just grinded harder and put in more time then you have.

I'm going to be honest. I hate pvp, but i like some pvp gear. IF (if, if, if, if, if, if) i really wanted to get that gear for GLAMOUR i would try the wintrade thing because i don't want to waste time doing pvp (the less the better). I'd be on "my own happy world" with 7 other guys, not hindering normal pvp players. I would get my gear, glamour it and goodbye pvp. No harm done.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Key word here. Some will, sure. All of them though? Nope.

(had to cut short due to limits)

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Those 180 could do normal PvP every day and only spend an hour or two win-trading. So loosing any of them is still a loss. You also forget that some people wont bother getting into PvP in the first place unless there's a quick way to get geared and able to fight on an even level with the vets. Take away the "quick way" aka win-trading, loose out on those people as well.

I honestly could careless if they made it against the rules, but instead of giving people another reason not to PvP, how about the devs spend their time improving the system? It needs a lot of help.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Those 180 could do normal PvP every day and only spend an hour or two win-trading. So loosing any of them is still a loss. You also forget that some people wont bother getting into PvP in the first place unless there's a quick way to get geared and able to fight on an even level with the vets. Take away the "quick way" aka win-trading, loose out on those people as well.

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If they only win trade for an hour or two, then if they cannot win trade, that is potentially an hour or two extra they can spend in proper PvP matches, so again, a positive. The only people really likely to out right stop are those who need an easy way, and I really doubt those are the ones doing PvP properly when they're not win trading, anyway. The players who play properly and win trade are not the ones likely to stop outright if win trading goes away.

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Originally Posted by Elim

I honestly could careless if they made it against the rules, but how about instead of giving some people a reason not to PvP, how about the devs spend their time improving the system instead? It needs a lot of help.

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I agree. Like I've said, win trading is really just a symptom.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If they only win trade for an hour or two, then if they cannot win trade, that is potentially an hour or two extra they can spend in proper PvP matches, so again, a positive. The only people really likely to out right stop are those who need an easy way, and I really doubt those are the ones doing PvP properly when they're not win trading, anyway. The players who play properly and win trade are not the ones likely to stop outright if win trading goes away.



I agree. Like I've said, win trading is really just a symptom.

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There could be positives, but it doesn't mean they'd outweigh the negatives. :) You can only guess and hope. Why risk it NOW with such a small pool of PvPers? Is enforcing your personal philosophy worth it?

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Originally Posted by Elim

There could be positives, but it doesn't mean they'd outweigh the negatives. :) You can only guess and hope. Why risk it NOW with such a small pool of PvPers? Is enforcing your personal philosophy worth it?

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Again, I don't care if they deal with win traders or not. I'm just playing devils advocate and pointing out that popping a bubble doesn't destroy its contents.

If SE deals with win traders, I doubt they'd do so out of the blue, for the reasons stated, it's much more likely that they'd do so while they make major adjustments to PvP that would hopefully fix the current issues leading to people win trading.

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Originally Posted by Jaykos

How do people even know that win trading is going on??? Do they have their cool vanity armour before you do? Maybe they just grinded harder and put in more time then you have.

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Because people put PFs up for win trade parties.

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Originally Posted by Endorendil

Wintrade fights reduce the number of people that are actually playing PvP, as all the players are just "fighting" each other endlessly. No one will see a lower queue time b/c 8 people engage in wintrading, in fact, assuming that at least some of these 8 people actually want the gear or the achievement (or enjoy it), there would be more players queueing if there were no wintrade fights.

So yes, please, rule this illegal. It can only benefit the actual player base.

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the thing is, those 8 people wouldn't PVP at all if they werent doing it with their friends, so banning win trades wouldnt help. people just wouldnt pvp.

or for instance, say they just want the gear for vanity, once they get that gear they will stop pvp'ing. so it still wouldnt help the system to force them into legit pvp.

IDK... People probably wouldn't trade win if you can start and rank 1 and not get slaughtered every game simply because you don't have gear that requires PvP rank to wear. The problem is that in the general case, if a fresh party just joins pvp, then they will never get a win because regardless of your skill level gear determines who wins fights. Some people probably prefer having a shot at winning than to wait a hour, get murdered in the same amount of time by a rank 30 team (due to gear) and wait another hour for another rank 30 team to slaughter them. With 2 light parties, there can at least be a fair match between people who want to play the game for fun.

Sad thing is that wintrading would not be possible if there was people actually using the 4v4 PVP.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

Sad thing is that wintrading would not be possible if there was people actually using the 4v4 PVP.

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people wintrade by choosing stuff like french only. so even if ppl did 4v4 it's unlikely that there would be french or german only ppl doing it. and wintrading would still be possible

I gave it a try. First match, as a healer, entered in less than 5 min. About 5 min inside. 104 wolfmarks on 10 minutes.

Next match. 15 minutes on DF........... Tired of it. End of the try, I go do something else :D

But even winning always, around 100 wolfmaks, that means 120 maches per piece. And sometimes it can be more than 15 minutes to get inside? Come on.... And I thought that Atmas were too much grinding, this is even worse.

And fates and PVP are almost equally not-fun :D

Main reason for people doing this is because pvp is monotous and mind numbingly boring. Almost as bad if not just as bad as hunting for atmas.

Make all the excuses you want about why people are doing it. They don't really matter. People win trade because they can and they should be dealt with.

This "everything should have a shortcut" mindset is getting absurd. Even if they "fixed" PvP you would still have tools doing it.

i

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Make all the excuses you want about why people are doing it. They don't really matter. People win trade because they can and they should be dealt with.

This "everything should have a shortcut" mindset is getting absurd. Even if they "fixed" PvP you would still have tools doing it.

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indeed, i hope by 2.28,SE rollback all these guy rank or at least. i do not want to do coil (even though i love some the head gear for casters) , but im not gonna cheat my way to get it. gaming the system is always bad, regardless whether its pve or pvp. i didnt use the "join in progress" when it was hot thing to do in CT when it was popular nor do i exploit the "leave dungeon before eveyone is done watch cut scene, so i dont eat a 30 minutes penalty"

i cant believe how many guys here who was complaining about alot of pve exploits before, is now saying "it kinda ok in pvp cuz pvp sucks"


such hypocrisy

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Originally Posted by zulu_kulu

i
indeed, i hope by 2.28,SE rollback all these guy rank or at least. i do not want to do coil (even though i love some the head gear for casters) , but im not gonna cheat my way to get it. gaming the system is always bad, regardless whether its pve or pvp. i didnt use the "join in progress" when it was hot thing to do in CT when it was popular nor do i exploit the "leave dungeon before eveyone is done watch cut scene, so i dont eat a 30 minutes penalty"

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I agree to this, but I also understand the lack of attention by SE for this being a PVE centered game. But that isn't to say that it does not suck, they clearly want to advance the pvp scene, with all the gear, and features to come, but they aren't advancing their ability to take proper care of it.

I'm also hoping they start realising that they need to enforce more rules on their competitive scene in the near future.

In my opinion anyone that at this moment has rank 40 should be banned or have their rank reset and gear taken away.

Quick someone post questions about win trading on the live letter questions thread or something.

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Originally Posted by Elvin

I gave it a try. First match, as a healer, entered in less than 5 min. About 5 min inside. 104 wolfmarks on 10 minutes.

Next match. 15 minutes on DF........... Tired of it. End of the try, I go do something else :D

But even winning always, around 100 wolfmaks, that means 120 maches per piece. And sometimes it can be more than 15 minutes to get inside? Come on.... And I thought that Atmas were too much grinding, this is even worse.

And fates and PVP are almost equally not-fun :D

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Which is why I gave up on PVP after getting 2 items. My FC didn't want to help, and even as a healer (which is nearly always the first attacked and killed in matches), it would take anywhere from 10 min to an hour for a single few minutes of a match for just a few marks.

Well, here's the thing. I have absolutely zero, read that zero interest in pvp. Not even for vanity gear. But I do have some FC members that strictly want pretty clothes. So I will suck it up and go with them and another group of 4 from our FC. We won't be playing with you, or bothering you, or one upping you in anyway. Just sigh, get it over with, and get the heck out. If SE says it's against ToS, then I'll respect that and will never darken the doors of the area again. Until then, I'll just sit on the ground, get killed, rinse and repeat. If we're not playing you and just getting inconsequential pretty things, I really don't see how it is or should be skin off anyone's nose.

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Originally Posted by Celaine

I do have some FC members that strictly want pretty clothes. So I will suck it up and go with them and another group of 4 from our FC. We won't be playing with you, or bothering you, or one upping you in anyway. Just sigh, get it over with, and get the heck out. If SE says it's against ToS, then I'll respect that and will never darken the doors of the area again. Until then, I'll just sit on the ground, get killed, rinse and repeat. If we're not playing you and just getting inconsequential pretty things, I really don't see how it is or should be skin off anyone's nose.

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The thing is this gear, is a thing of merit. Just like current coils High-Allagan gear, its not ok to exploit your way for vanity, work for it if you really care about it. I can respect peoples view on having vanity, but respect our view for having something that we actually achieve.

Merit? You don't get high allagan gear by getting killed in Coil for 100 hours.

You can get the PVP gear by getting kill there for 100 hours. So... Merit? No. Patience, maybe, but not merit. When I see a guy on pvp gear no one thinks "That guy must be good", or at least almost no one. Most people will just think "Wah, that poor guy liked the PVP gear so much that he grinded it for hours".

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Yeah I don't have a problem with two groups of 4-man queuing the DF for PVP with an alt language selected to specifically get each other - be it for win trading, to farm exp/seals, or just because they're tired of having their faces smeared on the floor because they don't have enough gear/abilities. It doesn't negatively impact anyone so why bother complaining about it.

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It negatively impacts PVP overall.
IT'S PLAYER VS PLAYER.
wintrading gives an advantage to those cheating the system.

how this question is debatable to the community really makes my brain bleed.

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Originally Posted by Elvin

Merit? You don't get high allagan gear by getting killed in Coil for 100 hours.

You can get the PVP gear by getting kill there for 100 hours. So... Merit? No. Patience, maybe, but not merit. When I see a guy on pvp gear no one thinks "That guy must be good", or at least almost no one. Most people will just think "Wah, that poor guy liked the PVP gear so much that he grinded it for hours".

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If your goal is to lose in pvp my friend you are setting the bar extremely low, merit and achievement for dedicating yourself into one thing should be reason for reward.

and yes, you put in hours into coil, its called practice, as do wins in PVP.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Quick someone post questions about win trading on the live letter questions thread or something.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2097000

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Originally Posted by Logo

how this question is debatable to the community really makes my brain bleed.

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Maybe it is because about 90%+ of the player population thinks that the PVP system is garbage?

Of course it's not a reliable stadistic, but I only seem people that seems to like this PVP on the forum. Not a single guy ingame who liked it. Hell, I was on a FC who had a lot of people interested in PVP, and we discarded the PVP section of the game after seing how bad it is

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Originally Posted by Elvin

Maybe it is because about 90%+ of the player population thinks that the PVP system is garbage?

Of course it's not a reliable stadistic, but I only seem people that seems to like this PVP on the forum. Not a single guy ingame who liked it. Hell, I was on a FC who had a lot of people interested in PVP, and we discarded the PVP section of the game after seing how bad it is

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Just because the pvp system is not matured, is not a reason to neglect its growth. And certainly not by exploiting its matchmaking system

Win traders doesn't affect your gameplay in any way. Why what others do in their free time bothers you so much? There is absolutely none people playing PvP, that queues take HOURS to pop unless you group up with a really low rank. Where is that competitive scene you are talking about, are we really playing the same game?

You should make a thread asking SE to actually fix it so more people pvp. Instead you ask to ban 20 ppl that are there for whatever reasons, glamour or boredom, don't care. Would that solve anything? If it's personal satisfaction i sincerely advice you to grow up.

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Originally Posted by Elvin

Maybe it is because about 90%+ of the player population thinks that the PVP system is garbage?

Of course it's not a reliable stadistic, but I only seem people that seems to like this PVP on the forum. Not a single guy ingame who liked it. Hell, I was on a FC who had a lot of people interested in PVP, and we discarded the PVP section of the game after seing how bad it is

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This justifies ruining the system more how?

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Originally Posted by 65shion

Win traders doesn't affect your gameplay in any way. Why what others do in their free time bothers you so much? There is absolutely none people playing PvP, that queues take HOURS to pop unless you group up -snip-

You should make a thread asking SE to actually fix it so more people pvp. Instead you ask to ban 20 ppl that are there for whatever reasons, glamour or boredom, don't care. Would that solve anything? If it's personal satisfaction i sincerely advice you to grow up.

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Excuse me , but people exploiting through dungeons also dont affect my experience directly, and SE is more than happy to punish those who abuse it. The queues take long because the pool of people legitimately doing pvp has decreased, and having people exploit the queing system to never show up on anyone elses game is a DIRECT result that does in fact affect my queue time/ experience as you call it.

Being PvP underpopulated does not legitimate exploits. Then we will get battlegrounds, and I really hope when that happens ALL ranks being reset to avoid have there all the people who illecitely farmed their rank, without even being any good on PvP. And please TOS updated (if needed) to have wintrades cause of account ban,

People good at PvP, will gain its deserved rank again, while the ones who have exploited their ranks, will keep at the rank they deserve.

Queuing with a premade 3 man group is way more of an exploit (and I use the term very loosely) than win trading, and amounts to the same thing - faster exp. Yet no one is flapping their gums about that. This is just another one of those "someone is doing something that is different to what I think they should be doing - ban pls" threads.

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Originally Posted by Sax

Queuing with a premade 3 man group is way more of an exploit (and I use the term very loosely) than win trading, and amounts to the same thing - faster exp. Yet no one is flapping their gums about that. This is just another one of those "someone is doing something that is different to what I think they should be doing - ban pls" threads.

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How is that remotely relatable? you're not offering a loss on a platter by fighting a 3 or 4 man premade.

Do people even realize how many PvP matches you actually need to win in order toget rank40...? (2000-4000 matches)
No casual or hardcore player would do it normally. It take you a year of pvping and queing in. Forget the rest of the game.
Why buy moral gear everytime you unlock a rank when you can save up and spend it all on the best stuff at end rank.
Why Materia low ranked gear knowing your going to have to replace it soon.

Frontlines gonna be big fail because of the Job requirements and gear requirements and rank requirements. Way worse then Crystal Tower ques. Noone gonna be able to do frontlines after a month of release, just like normal pvp but times three.

Only 1% of the community even do PvP.

SE needs to remove how Ranks level you up in pvp. Fixing this is the biggest fix they could do and also let players que faster together reguardless of rank.