Tanks/Threat/lowlevels Please fix this.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You are implying that there isn't a problem. There is. There is a huge problem, and if a fully geared guy is *almost* loosing threat in his parties when level synced - how well do you think it's going for those who AREN'T overgeared and AREN'T experienced as he is? I'll tell you: It's not pretty.

There's a lot of comments in here about rotations and sequences and things but the problem is that the snap threat is too low to be effective. On trash, you have no ramp up time. So yes, you can do your little flash, then start your sequence to get to your third weaponskill that does a lot of threat - but that's a terrible design and it's why paladin tanks are struggling. AoE snap threat needs to be a lot better than it is on this content, and it's also why he isn't seeing the same level of issue on the end game content. There is more ramp-up time for him to use all his abilities.

SE doesn't have to go full-on retard ez mode for low level tanking, but to argue that everything is 100% fine as it is... well that's disingenuous at best.




You know there's still a lot of people playing those dungeons, right? People leveling up as well as high levels in duty roulette? Why is this not worth fixing?

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The post below is pretty much explains why. Also, are you saying we should just give shield oath to Gladiator because tanking before pld is unlocked is hard and I'll reiterate. It's a change for just 4 dungeons in the game, its total effect is just a fraction of the available content, and a very small fraction at that. This thread was made by a 50 tank, talking about how he's over-geared for low level roulette and how's he almost losing hate, in 4 dungeons.

It is in part why communication is necessary, under-geared/not max level tanks need to talk to their party, and dps/healers need to understand how aggro bars work. Some WHM's don't understand the constant strain on enmity regen can provide in early dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

People are seriously blowing this out of proportion. At low levels you will never see DPS/heals as a sliver of emnity on the bar like you will at 50, allowing you to derp around for the last half of a boss fight. I leveled both gld/pld and mrd/war to 50 on seperate characters with poop gear and I didn't have problems tanking or holding hate. I am not an amazing tank, I am not some sort of emnity genius with precise formulas and a strict methodology of how to hold hate. I just used flash/overpower appropriately and cycled my emnity combos on mobs if appropriate while tabbing through to make sure no other mobs were about to go nuts on someone. If doing that is too much for someone to handle at low levels when a stray mob isn't even a big deal, how well will they handle end game? IMO, low level tanking -needs- to be harder in order to train future tanks to keep everything under control. They will be in the habit of doing so when things start getting real in dungeons, and a stray mob with a potent AOE can really mess up a run.

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Either you haven't tanked enough at low levels to encounter them, or you're overlooking the good dps that push threat against synced tanks.
Also, low level tanking should not be more annoying than high level tanking. There's no need to weed people out of a role that needs more players.

When I started FFXIV, my impression was that tanks were weak threat generators compared to most MMOs I've played. They could barely do their jobs. Then threat was buffed, and it's mostly ok now, but there are still some cases, like sync, where tanks don't generate enough threat.

There's no reason to defend broken stuff. Smoothing out the low level experience for tanks (when tanks are in such demand) is useful. Who knows how many people are discouraged from tanking because progression (getting tank skills too late) and synced threat isn't quite right.

A couple things I'm reading here: people do not understand how level syncing works and several Paladins developed their tanking habits and rotations in post-40 dungeons instead of the Brayflox's Longstop, Sunken Temple of Qarn and Cutter's Cry.

First, when equipment level syncs its stats drop to those of a NQ item of the synced ilevel. This means that both the High Allagan Blade (ilevel 115) and Flametongue(ilevel 35) will sync down to the level of a NQ Walnut Macuahuitl(ilevel 34) when you join Brayflox's Longstop NM. This can cause DPS in unsynced HQ/Aetherial/Scarce gear to be better geared than you, but this should not be much of a problem because their average ilevel should be lower due to gear availability.

If you properly develop your ability to hold enmity in Brayflox, Qarn and Cutter's nothing should be able to give you any serious problems post 40 once you get Shield Oath. If you Duty Find into any of those 3 dungeons and have problems holding enmity then its your habits and rotations that need work not parts of the class.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

A couple things I'm reading here: people do not understand how level syncing works and several Paladins developed their tanking habits and rotations in post-40 dungeons instead of the Brayflox's Longstop, Sunken Temple of Qarn and Cutter's Cry.

First, when equipment level syncs its stats drop to those of a NQ item of the synced ilevel. This means that both the High Allagan Blade (ilevel 115) and Flametongue(ilevel 35) will sync down to the level of a NQ Walnut Macuahuitl(ilevel 34) when you join Brayflox's Longstop NM. This can cause DPS in unsynced HQ/Aetherial/Scarce gear to be better geared than you, but this should not be much of a problem because their average ilevel should be lower due to gear availability.

If you properly develop your ability to hold enmity in Brayflox, Qarn and Cutter's nothing should be able to give you any serious problems post 40 once you get Shield Oath. If you Duty Find into any of those 3 dungeons and have problems holding enmity then its your habits and rotations that need work not parts of the class.

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I don't think that is quite how it works...

From personal experience, the better the gear, the better it is after sync. Hence why I can go to say Copperbell NM and have more HP than the tank who is wearing appropriate level gear. And why when I join a dungeon with higher gear, I have more stats than with lower level gear. It might not sync perfectly, but it still seems to be better.

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Originally Posted by ariaandkia

I don't think that is quite how it works...

From personal experience, the better the gear, the better it is after sync. Hence why I can go to say Copperbell NM and have more HP than the tank who is wearing appropriate level gear. And why when I join a dungeon with higher gear, I have more stats than with lower level gear. It might not sync perfectly, but it still seems to be better.

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Nope, PvPers worked out the level syncing mechanics a while back and I just did Titan NM to check. My Cavalry (i34) set gave me better stats than my Weathered Noct (i100) set which had the same stats as my Valor (i90), of Light (i80) and Heavy Darklight (i70) sets.

What you are likely seeing in those Copperbell NM runs was new tanks in a mix of out leveled NQ, Aetherial and Scarce gear that were also missing most of their accessories. You had a NQ ilevel of 20 while they may have had less than half that.

What I remember from leveling my tanks, and what seems somewhat true on my monk at the moment, is your ilvl assuming at least the most current leftside gear and whatever the best accessories you can have, will usually be at least 5 lvls lower than the dungeon benchmark. The difference though is getting stuff from say brayflox that is i34 i think, but is still good gear for a couple of dungeons. I can't really hit the max ilvl because accessories just don't really exist at every level.

What I'd kind of like to see them do in the game though, is instead of level syncing us straight. If we are going to be synced down 29-, I wish the game would automatically unequip my job stone or at least give me a checkbox for the option. Pre 29 all classes are better than jobs at least for tanking, since a 29- war can't use defiance anyways so I'd rather have the extra cross class options.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

A couple things I'm reading here: people do not understand how level syncing works and several Paladins developed their tanking habits and rotations in post-40 dungeons instead of the Brayflox's Longstop, Sunken Temple of Qarn and Cutter's Cry.

First, when equipment level syncs its stats drop to those of a NQ item of the synced ilevel. This means that both the High Allagan Blade (ilevel 115) and Flametongue(ilevel 35) will sync down to the level of a NQ Walnut Macuahuitl(ilevel 34) when you join Brayflox's Longstop NM. This can cause DPS in unsynced HQ/Aetherial/Scarce gear to be better geared than you, but this should not be much of a problem because their average ilevel should be lower due to gear availability.

If you properly develop your ability to hold enmity in Brayflox, Qarn and Cutter's nothing should be able to give you any serious problems post 40 once you get Shield Oath. If you Duty Find into any of those 3 dungeons and have problems holding enmity then its your habits and rotations that need work not parts of the class.

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Go back and read the first post please.

Many people keep getting off topic and completely having the purpose of this thread run right over their heads.

Its not about "rotations" its that the skills given in the order they are require you to do the same skill over and over. I participated in the alpha and beta and in those forums people complained about jobs where skills needed to be spammed or were more proficient by being spammed. (Which is boring..)

The jobs and skills were adjusted and the game is much more enjoyable because of it. Just because testing is over doesnt mean we cant suggest for things to be reconsidered especially if we are seeing an issue with number of players playing tanks......

Like -flash- you can stand there and flash flash flash and riot and flash flash flash and you can hold all the threat all day long.

The issue is:

1. Clearly its not effective if you have to spam it (meaning a low number of flashes wont push you far enough to do other things.)
2. The job is deemed boring post level 49 and if i am among the few who find it enjoyable at level 50 then sync down and find it much less enjoyable in so much that i choose to play warrior instead, who the hell is going to keep playing the job pre 50? When there is a shortage of tanks.....

I cant keep saying it any other way i dont know when it will start to sink in that its not very fun to watch probably the worst looking and sounding animation go off over and over. (At least in Speed runs there are 8+mobs aoe'ing on the floor so i have to at least move around. Pre 50/sr's i just stand there.. flashing... thats it....and if i dont... thats when i start to get close to losing threat.. cause spamming flash is boring and i wanna do something else.)

If i really wanted to make a suggestion that made more sense to mr coth I'd probably ask them to:

1. Give flash a new animation and sound. (At the very least a new sound..)
2. Allow flash to generate more threat to allow for other skill implementation pre shield oath. (Also for the threat generation calculator for flash be "strength" based so it can fight with level sync and echo buff more proficiently.)
3. Give shield oath at 30 not 40.
4. Make shield swipe to also generate more threat.
5. Give Shield swipe before shield bash (as shield bash is endgame also. Shield swipe at lvl18.)
6. Give Riot Blade another "additional effect" (maybe something like increased parry +10% for 6s, or 20% chance next magical cast cost 2/3 MP or something just to encourage its use except to generate MP to spam flash. Or 20% next cure spell is 100% more potent.)
7. Lower the enmity generated by Rage of Halone, requiring players to incorporate Flash and shield swipe into a more complex rotation.
8. Increase the range of cover and allow it to cover more attacks such as Levi's ultimate attack, Aetherial Profusion, etc etc.
9. Change these levels of acquisition to this: Bulwark 34, Awareness 42, Tempered Will 46.
10. Dont readjust content such as stunning Ifrit or flashing Titans mountain buster making Paladin even more useless in certain fights than it already is.

But Coth wont stand for a simple swap in Shield Oath to make the job more enjoyable for what reason is beyond me, so we'll see how he reacts to this list i guess..

If there is a demand for tanks, then make the tank jobs make sense, and be enjoyable.

IndigoHawk made a good point.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Also, low level tanking should not be more annoying than high level tanking. There's no need to weed people out of a role that needs more players.

There's no reason to defend broken stuff. Smoothing out the low level experience for tanks (when tanks are in such demand) is useful. Who knows how many people are discouraged from tanking because progression (getting tank skills too late) and synced threat isn't quite right.

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TLDR:
Make the job more enjoyable/proficient so more people might be interested in playing it.

I'm levelling mine right now (34) and I see no issues with the PLD's skill set - Sword Oath in post game is a "DPS stance", yes - but pre-Shield Oath, it's an extra damager to help keep hate - fine where it is. Been doing runs on Brayflox where I Shield Lob, 2xFlash, then combo and rotate targets and have had no issue holding hate in Sword Oath.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

2. Allow flash to generate more threat to allow for other skill implementation pre shield oath. (Also for the threat generation calculator for flash be "strength" based so it can fight with level sync and echo buff more proficiently.)

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It already *is* "strength based*. The enmity generated by Flash is dependent upon your attack power which is directly impacted by your Strength (in fact, it's the primary contributor).

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6. Give Riot Blade another "additional effect" (maybe something like increased parry +10% for 6s, or 20% chance next magical cast cost 2/3 MP or something just to encourage its use except to generate MP to spam flash. Or 20% next cure spell is 100% more potent.)

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The entire point of Riot Blade is to regenerate MP. It's not simply a "spam more Flash" combo. It's a combo that's there to allow you to make up for the terrible passive mp regen that PLD has given that more than just Flash costs MP (both stances, Flash, Stoneskin). Extra parry would be increasing mitigation where none is needed and giving it more MP support capabilities isn't going to make it any more attractive for purposes other than Flash spam: Flash is a spell so that's basically what your cost redux proc would apply to and, even with 100% additional potency, Cure is still laughable on a PLD (and doesn't scale with gear, either, since PLDs don't stack MND so the proc would become pointless ridiculously quickly).

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7. Lower the enmity generated by Rage of Halone, requiring players to incorporate Flash and shield swipe into a more complex rotation.

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This opens up a whole can of worms that requires reworking the enmity math on pretty much everything PLD gets. If you want to *require* players weave in attacks rather than spamming RoH, you've basically got to hamstring the enmity generated by RoH while simultaneously beefing the living shit out of the other attacks, both of which are exceptionally problematic. Flash is an AoE and, as such, forcing it to be spammed for ST purposes is basically preventing PLD from being able to effectively tank any time they have to tank in close proximity to anything else that they shouldn't be tanking (re: any time an add spawns nearby that they're not supposed to be picking up, which happens plenty often). Shield Swipe is a high conditional proc which means that its contributions are unreliable and actually end up being nonexistent on some fights (any fight against a pure magic opponent completely precludes its use; ex. if you're on Levi's head, the only way for you to get Shield Swipe to proc is to get attacked by the adds).

Weakening RoH is not the solution to making PLD more interesting to play. If you want to make it more interesting to play, you should look into buffing the other options so that the best thing for them to do 99% of the time is just spam RoH. Giving Shield Swipe a 3-4x enmity modifier so that it isn't a net loss to enmity generation would actually go pretty far in making the PLD rotation more interesting since you're incorporating a time dependent proc-activated ability that increases damage and efficiency without having said incorporation end up reducing your enmity generation significantly. I main as WAR and found PLD to be singularly mind numbing to play up until I decided to start incorporating Shield Swipe because it actually requires you pay attention to some degree, and, to use it optimally, requires a modest degree of forethought.

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10. Dont readjust content such as stunning Ifrit or flashing Titans mountain buster making Paladin even more useless in certain fights than it already is.

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I seriously have to wonder why you seem to think that the devs have a problem with PLD such that they're making it "more useless in certain fights". Ifrit HM has been a joke for the longest time and had been a joke long before the devs tweaked the DR on stun. If anything, the change to stun DR actually made PLD more interesting on Ifrit HM because they were given a reason to actually *do* something other than sit there and wait for Eruption so that they could use Shield Bash.

I'm quite curious as to which fights a PLD is "useless" for. If anything, the increased utility a PLD provides (silence, HG, stunlocking) actually means that a PLD is basically required in way more situations than a WAR is (in fact, I can't think of any situations/strats where a WAR is required but can think of plenty where a PLD is). WAR is *optimal* in a number of situations when compared to a PLD, but that's nowhere near rendering PLD useless. The only possible way I can interpret "PLDs are more useless in certain fights" is that you're pissed that you're not basically *required* to have at least 1 PLD with you for every single piece of 8 man content in the game.

Woe be the PLD because double WAR is actually a *viable* composition that's still inferior to WAR/PLD. /sarcasm

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But Coth wont stand for a simple swap in Shield Oath to make the job more enjoyable for what reason is beyond me, so we'll see how he reacts to this list i guess..

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The basic reason is that it's not really a problem so why bother fixing it? I've yet to meet anyone that thinks that GLD and PLD have insufficient enmity generation tools at any point except for those people that think that enmity should be a complete and utter joke at all times. Flash works just fine and ShO isn't even really needed until your late-40s. The only reason that anyone complains about not getting Shield Oath at 30 is because WARs get Defiance at 30 (and the reason that WARs get it at 30 is that *every single one* of their other job abilities depends upon it). If WARs got Defiance at 40, you can be damned sure no one would be complaining.

If you really want to provide a list of suggestions, try to make sure they're not either painfully obvious ones that have been suggested time and time again (Shield Swipe high enmity) or bad ideas that simply demonstrate how little you know about the game (Flash enmity tweaking; Flash animation tweaking, as if it would actually *do* anything, "don't readjust content").

Ok so after 20 or so several low level runs last night, I have come to the conclusion tanks having a really hard time holding threat are just bad. Mostly because of skills used or not used. Body pulling, hesitating, not being the first to attack ect ect ect.

But the #1 reason is that they are not using the highest lvl weapon they can equip. lvl 15 tank using a lvl 10 weapon. Lvl 20 tank using a lvl 13 weapon, ect ect ect.

Then the rest of it is complete lack of skill. If you use the highest wep available and use flash and shit, you will win. Nothing needs to be adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You are implying that there isn't a problem. There is. There is a huge problem, and if a fully geared guy is *almost* loosing threat in his parties when level synced - how well do you think it's going for those who AREN'T overgeared and AREN'T experienced as he is? I'll tell you: It's not pretty.

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Comparing statistics between and full i90 player level-synced to the max level of the dungeon and an un-synced player is not really wise. I've leveled a lot of jobs, and as I have all the crafts at 50, I kept my self fully geared in HQ craftables as much as I could. I've also done many low level roulette for mythology as a change of pace from the Brayflox grind as well. An i90 synced character actually has less stats than a fully geared player un-synced player for that same level. Not by too much, but definitely a noticeable amount.

I have both WAR and PLD at 50, and the only time i ever had trouble holding hate was in Haukke Manor on WAR just before I learned Defiance, but that was when I was still fresh to tanking and freaked a little bit and didn't realize just how important keeping the rotation order was. Even if it's just a 2-GCD rotation, stay in form, Fast Blade/Heavy Swing are just as important as Savage Blade/Skull Sunder. The combo bonus is imperative to tanking well.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Go back and read the first post please.

If i really wanted to make a suggestion that made more sense to mr coth I'd probably ask them to:

But Coth wont stand for a simple swap in Shield Oath to make the job more enjoyable for what reason is beyond me, so we'll see how he reacts to this list i guess..

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Perhaps you should go back and read your original post, the original post was not an attempt at opening up discussion on flash or pld rotations, it was a request to make shield oath occur 4 dungeons worth of levels sooner.

Also, I really don't have to keep beating a dead horse, but hey why not one more time, your request only affects 4 dungeons in the entire game, and they are pre50 dungeons. Also, not to mention the whole if you're leveling GLD you'll have to do Haukke manor for a couple of levels without PLD even unlocked.

You can request this all you want, but you're still going to need solid tanking skills in the early dungeons.

I am in absolute agreement on defiance/oaths not being lost on death though.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The basic reason is that it's not really a problem so why bother fixing it? I've yet to meet anyone that thinks that GLD and PLD have insufficient enmity generation tools at any point except for those people that think that enmity should be a complete and utter joke at all times. Flash works just fine and ShO isn't even really needed until your late-40s. The only reason that anyone complains about not getting Shield Oath at 30 is because WARs get Defiance at 30 (and the reason that WARs get it at 30 is that *every single one* of their other job abilities depends upon it). If WARs got Defiance at 40, you can be damned sure no one would be complaining.

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Quoting this part of kitru's post cause I wanted to say WARs would be complaining cause they'd be doing 10 levels worth of dungeons and not be able to use inner beast or unchained :p

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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If you two cant realize that there is a shortage of tanks, and that Paladin is deemed boring by the community at large then neither of you must ever play the game.

I sign in and see 90% of the time (if not more) that in party finder, the Levi X parties have the Warrior spot long filled and the paladin spot not being filled..

I'm tired of repeating myself to you two. I hear of people complaining that there are so many bad tanks, and yet i dont have issues but find myself not enjoying paladin at low level. I made a simple suggestion and you didnt like it. Thats your choice but if you actually think i'm a bad tank cause i tried making a suggestion to help the community and attempt to make Paladin more appealing youre .. out of your mind.

Kitru in your super long post you proved nothing. Sure maybe people suggested things I already suggested, but i dont spend nearly what.. not even 18% of the time on the forums as much as you do. Mostly because I'm actually playing the game. So again if you dont realize there is a shortage of paladins specifically maybe you should turn on the game and see for yourself.

Also your warrior doesnt heal statement. Internal Release bloodbath maim buff then overpower/steelcyclone during 8+mob pulls? Yeah, its boss. You should learn to use it. That or double inner beast under bloodbath internal release berserk and maim buff

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

I
Also your warrior doesnt heal statement. Internal Release bloodbath maim buff then overpower/steelcyclone during 8+mob pulls? Yeah, its boss. You should learn to use it. That or double inner beast under bloodbath internal release berserk and maim buff

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Just saying, my primary alternate is a PLD and now I have leveled and geared my WAR with an allagan battle axe and I have to say.. man.. mass pulls like 1st pull in brayflox HM, Infurate-Unchained, Berserk-Bloodbath-IR and spam overpower for 200 dmg per hit on 10 mobs or so, that's holy shiat man!

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

So again if you dont realize there is a shortage of paladins specifically maybe you should turn on the game and see for yourself.

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I actually spend plenty of time in game (at least 2-3 hours/night), and I've never seen a shortage of PLDs compared to WARs. More often than not I'm seeing double PLD than double WAR because there's a helluva lot more content that requires a PLD than there is that requires a WAR.

I find it amusing that the go-to argument for people that have no actual knowledge of the underpinnings of the game is that they spend all of their time in game rather than on the forums. Maybe if you spent a little more time on the forums you'd actually know what you're talking about. Hell, maybe if you actually paid attention while you were playing you'd realize that much of the stuff that people learn on the forums is actually derived from stuff we learn *while we're playing the game*.

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I sign in and see 90% of the time (if not more) that in party finder, the Levi X parties have the Warrior spot long filled and the paladin spot not being filled..

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That's not because there aren't as many PLDs as WARs. That's because there is 1 spot that basically has to be filled by a PLD and 1 spot that can be filled by either a WAR or a PLD (yes, the MT spot is better suited for WAR, but it's not basically required like the OT spot).

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Also your warrior doesnt heal statement. Internal Release bloodbath maim buff then overpower/steelcyclone during 8+mob pulls? Yeah, its boss. You should learn to use it. That or double inner beast under bloodbath internal release berserk and maim buff

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I never said WAR doesn't heal. I said that WAR self-heals are a minute portion of our total mitigation. You specifically said that "Warriors heal themselves. Paladins mitigate damage". When you're doing massive with Bloodbath, yes, you'll see some pretty green numbers but the self healing you're getting out of it is laughable compared to the amount of damage you're taking *because you're being beat on by 8+ enemies*. The reason that you're surviving those massive pulls isn't your self heals; it's the fact that you're reducing your damage taken via CDs and increasing the heals you receive from your healer via Defiance. The chances of your self-heals actually making a difference are virtually nonexistent.

After you get hit in the face by Death Sentence, see how big of a difference your self-heals are going to make to your survival (and that actually exaggerates their value given than self-heals are unaffected by healing debuffs). Most of the time, your self-heals are just going to end up being overheal. For most of the time that they're *not* just overheal, they're just a small increase to healer efficiency because you're letting them get away with a Cure instead of a Cure II.

WARs have self heals. That does not mean that they are the self-healing tanks whereas PLDs are the mitigation tanks. WAR self-heals are a small portion of our total mitigation, a vast majority of which is provided by traditional mitigation sources such as DR, defense, and parry. WAR self heals only account for the minute disparity between Defiance and Shield Oath and, in any scenario where you're actually taking appreciable damage (which, yes, does include AoE pulls), your self-heals aren't going to make any significant difference whatsoever.

I find it quite amusing that you seem to think that I don't know how to generate self heals on a WAR, especially since you're just pointing out laughably obvious stuff as if it were somehow a secret strategy (activate all of your damage buffs, turn on Bloodbath, and AoE! how could I possibly have missed that?). Are you next going to tell me that I should run around with Defiance on and use SE>BB>BB or SE>BB>BB>BB for enmity generation? Please, tell me all of these completely obvious things about playing a WAR that I could never have found out were it not for you.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

If you two cant realize that there is a shortage of tanks, etc etc etc

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I'm not sure I'm getting you here. Your first post is about shield/sword oath and emnity generation at low levels, now you're talking about making Paladin more fun/accessible so that people will play it more. Except that shield oath and sword oath are passive buffs that are not "fun" in the slightest and will not improve/alter gameplay if they are switched. Perhaps you're saying that just holding emnity better in a few dungeons would make the class more fun, but myself and several others have come forward and noted that there is no real issue holding hate and tanking in those dungeons. Buffing invisible numbers will not make a class "fun" to new players, nor will making it easier because they will just frustrated even more at later levels when things are harder (and people have far less patience for bad tanks).

I understand that you may not feel like Paladin is a very dynamic or interesting class to play, I feel the same way. While I applaud your desire to make the class interesting, I just don't think your proposed change is relevant to the long term enjoyment of the class at all.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

I understand that you may not feel like Paladin is a very dynamic or interesting class to play, I feel the same way. While I applaud your desire to make the class interesting, I just don't think your proposed change is relevant to the long term enjoyment of the class at all.

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Quoting this because the bolded part completely validates my point. Since his change affects nothing past 40 and if someone doesn't want to pld tank at all, they prob gave up before getting to lvl 30 anyways.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

Perhaps you're saying that just holding emnity better in a few dungeons would make the class more fun, but myself and several others have come forward and noted that there is no real issue holding hate and tanking in those dungeons.

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Except that there is. Lower leveled, inexperienced tanks are having a LOT of trouble controlling mobs and it's because of the limited tools at low levels. The progression of tanking shouldn't be
Level 30: impossible to control against even a gearing up CNJ\LNC (which is my personal experience, and as someone who has played multiple mmos over the course of a decade I know how to manage my own threat)
Level 50: easy peasy lemon breezy not even worth mention

The content should be PROGRESSIVELY harder to tank\control mobs and introduce more and more mechanics until you are at end game and it is very challenging, but from what I am reading here and elsewhere (and seeing in my own dungeoning) it's definitely not like that. I don't know how long it's been since you have been in a low level dungeon or actually leveled a tank class (I'm guessing months, at least), but I am in that content and for every 5 dungeons I do at least 4 of them are a nightmare of monsters running everywhere.

Gladiators and Paladins have a much harder time hanging onto monsters at lower levels than Mauraders and Warriors do, and it *should* be addressed. Tanking already has the most pressure in the game - the tools shouldn't be so limited. Tanking multiple mobs is very different from the days when we chained mobs one at a time. This is something that should be looked at if SE is serious about inviting more people to try the tanking role.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

... Gladiators and Paladins have a much harder time hanging onto monsters at lower levels than Mauraders and Warriors do, and it *should* be addressed. Tanking already has the most pressure in the game - the tools shouldn't be so limited. Tanking multiple mobs is very different from the days when we chained mobs one at a time. This is something that should be looked at if SE is serious about inviting more people to try the tanking role.

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Not months. Lodestone Hanoka Song on Coeurl, I made that character after returning from a month long break. She is a Warrior now, and I leveled from fresh lvl 1 status to 50 War as well as lvl 24 GLD at this point. This was all recently, within the last 3-4 weeks. I had none of the problems you are talking about leveling either tanking class. I have run my low level roulette consistantly as well.

Here is the issue, and you said it yourself. "Inexperienced tanks". Yes, the first 4 dungeons you will be inexperienced. Yes, there will be limited tools at low levels, because they are, well, low levels. You cannot/will not have 20 skills to mitagate damage and manage emnity at lvl 15 when you head in Satasha. I just seriously don't see what the massive issue with utilizing flash/overpower and maintaining aggro is, because even as a brand new player I didn't have these problems in these dungeons. Yes, it can be overwhelming, but the whole "It's impossible to hold aggro hermergerd the game is broken for tanks at low levels" is not helping your cause. You are pushing people away from tanking by saying these things, which are simply not true. If what you were saying was a universally true problem, then I and others who have commented in this thread would be having them too. We are not.

I'm not trying to be rude or imply that you are a bad tank and I am a good tank, just telling you the honest truth.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

Not months. Lodestone Hanoka Song on Coeurl, I made that character after returning from a month long break. She is a Warrior now, and I leveled from fresh lvl 1 status to 50 War as well as lvl 24 GLD at this point. This was all recently, within the last 3-4 weeks. I had none of the problems you are talking about leveling either tanking class. I have run my low level roulette consistantly [sic] as well.

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So, an experienced tank has leveled up warrior to 50 - the tank that everyone agrees is balanced - and gladiator to a modest level is arguing that nothing is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

You cannot/will not have 20 skills to mitagate damage and manage emnity at lvl 15 when you head in Satasha.

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You don't need 20 skills. You need 1-2 tools that actually work and are easy to use\understand how to use. This whole ramp-up thing of enmity attached to self-skillchains is really detrimental to the tank role as a whole, and the Flash\Skillchain back mp might have looked good on paper but in practice every single guide I have read has discouraged it because you can't afford not to use the enmity skillchain. It needs to be looked it. This topic comes up often enough in enough different places that there is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

the whole "It's impossible to hold aggro hermergerd the game is broken for tanks at low levels" is not helping your cause.

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I'm not a tank at the moment. I leveled to 50 drg exclusively through dungeons and main scenario, and I am leveling WHM exclusively through dungeons. This is coming from the perspective of someone who DOESN'T see things from only the tank side. As a healer and a dps in instances, I have had the opportunity to observe a lot of tanks. Experienced gladiators who are fast at marking tend to do better than the ones that don't, but I have yet to even SEE a warrior bother with marking and they very rarely if ever lose control of the pull. That's a big disconnect.

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Originally Posted by Senfei

You are pushing people away from tanking by saying these things, which are simply not true.

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No. The attitude that "but, but, it's ONLY 4 DUNGEONS" is what pushes people away. That indicates that you know there is an issue but don't care and think it shouldn't be bothered with because it's low level content. Personally I find that to be a terrible attitude.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

So, an experienced tank has leveled up warrior to 50 - the tank that everyone agrees is balanced - and gladiator to a modest level is arguing that nothing is wrong.




You don't need 20 skills. You need 1-2 tools that actually work and are easy to use\understand how to use. This whole ramp-up thing of enmity attached to self-skillchains is really detrimental to the tank role as a whole, and the Flash\Skillchain back mp might have looked good on paper but in practice every single guide I have read has discouraged it because you can't afford not to use the enmity skillchain. It needs to be looked it. This topic comes up often enough in enough different places that there is a problem.



I'm not a tank at the moment. I leveled to 50 drg exclusively through dungeons and main scenario, and I am leveling WHM exclusively through dungeons. This is coming from the perspective of someone who DOESN'T see things from only the tank side. As a healer and a dps in instances, I have had the opportunity to observe a lot of tanks. Experienced gladiators who are fast at marking tend to do better than the ones that don't, but I have yet to even SEE a warrior bother with marking and they very rarely if ever lose control of the pull. That's a big disconnect.



No. The attitude that "but, but, it's ONLY 4 DUNGEONS" is what pushes people away. That indicates that you know there is an issue but don't care and think it shouldn't be bothered with because it's low level content. Personally I find that to be a terrible attitude.

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I leveled pld to 50 first and then I leveled war to 50 and I enjoy war more which is why I play war more.

It isn't just those 4 dungeons! WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTANDING? Let's just give gld shield oath at lvl 1, done, they will never have to try to hold hate ever again. If they can make it through haukke manor without shield oath, they can make it through another 4 dungeons with improved dps output.

Also, bad tanks are bad tanks, and good tanks are good tanks. I think I was leveling my pld pre 2.0, maybe it was already 2.1, and I had mostly no issues. It got tougher at 30-40 but if it wasn't a challenge, then what would be the point? And I never thought at the time I should have gotten shield oath at 30 because I never needed it. Some tanks out there are really fucking lazy, and some tanks out there are open to advice which is nice when you can help someone out.

shield oath adds 20% dmg mitigation, so to avoid "breaking" game balance and making it earlier dungeons a faceroll, the 20% mitigation has to change.
What SE can do is remove the 20% dmg mitigation from shield oath and allow to obtain it at earlier levels, the 20% mitigation in shield oath needs to be move to "Passive" and will be obtain at the level you get shield oath now.

WAR gets the full benefit of Defiance (HP and Heal buff and Crit) with 30 too so whats the big deal with Shield Oath being game breaking?
Also, there are no traits for job abilities, only for class abilties.

The fact that I did not need Shield Oath at 30 either has nothing to do with the observation that other tanks are struggling to keep the aggro.
PLDs that didn't learn to use flash when they were still GLDs, will not use flash with Shield Oath either, meaning you still have to learn basic things.

The only technical reason PLD does not get Shield Oath with 30 that i see is that he gets full Halone combo earlier than WAR.

Well thats one of my biggest complaint on all of the classes that use chain skills.
They shouldve just given the basic full combo for every class before first dungeon.
I had way more fun at lower levels with pugilist cause you atleast get your first basic stuff at lvl6

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

The only technical reason PLD does not get Shield Oath with 30 that i see is that he gets full Halone combo earlier than WAR.

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The only technical reason that WAR gets Defiance at 30 is because every other WAR skill requires you be in Defiance for it to be used. There are absolutely no contingent skills for PLD.

People keep behaving as if there's no reason that PLD can't be like WAR when it's more appropriate to say that there is a well defined reason as to why WAR can't be like PLD. As plenty of people have already said, enmity isn't really an issue from 30-39 (even if you disagree about this specific level range, it's no different than it was before) so it stands to reason that the devs designed the game under the assumption that tanks would only get significantly out-enmitied by DPS/healers starting at 40 (which susses out with the 40+ dungeons which is when unavoidable AoE starts coming into play). As such, unless a tank has a good reason for it, they wouldn't get a tank stance until 40. WAR has a *really* good reason; PLD doesn't.

This is a dumb argument, No one cares about sub 30 dungeons.

For PLD, pre-Rage of Halone dungeons (all before "Thousand Ews of Total-Yuck") are more or less the only place it can be annoying to hold hate when your DPS have job souls on and perform well. It requires focus on frequent flash usage and mp restoration (especially with AoE DPS), but it is manageable.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

The fact that I did not need Shield Oath at 30 either has nothing to do with the observation that other tanks are struggling to keep the aggro.
PLDs that didn't learn to use flash when they were still GLDs, will not use flash with Shield Oath either, meaning you still have to learn basic things.

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Are you really trying to justify it with bad tanks? Bad tanks are bad, and giving them shield oath sooner won't make them less bad.

Good tanks, aren't going to have problems.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

This is a dumb argument, No one cares about sub 30 dungeons.

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The reason sub 30 dungeons still matter is because I often get dumped in copperbell/sastasha/toto on the regular in duty roulette. The reason this argument involves pre30 dungeons, is because this change wouldn't help a i100,098 pld using duty roulette getting into one of those dungeons anyways.

I think a much simpler fix would be to either crank up the enmity generated by Flash or give Circle of Scorn to PLD earlier than 50. PLD's biggest weakness sub-40 for many people is a lack of true AoE threat like WAR's Overpower. Changing Shield Oath to 30 is only a band-aid fix. If a PLD is going to have trouble holding enmity, it'll be AoE and not ST. Shield Oath will only make it harder to lose AoE enmity, but a PLD that isn't paying attention will still lose it.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The only technical reason that WAR gets Defiance at 30 is because every other WAR skill requires you be in Defiance for it to be used. There are absolutely no contingent skills for PLD.

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I was saying why I think PLD does not get shield oath at 30 (because of Halone).
You are saying why WAR gets Defiance.
You are right, but both points do not disprove each other.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

Are you really trying to justify it with bad tanks? Bad tanks are bad, and giving them shield oath sooner won't make them less bad.
Good tanks, aren't going to have problems.

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Yeah I do, because they affect my game when I do low level roulette.
You are acting as if this change would actually be a buff where it isn't.
Those bad tanks will eventually get Shieldoath anyways, so, of course you can have the attitude to just say "s*ck it up and deal with the bad tanks" (no fun) whereas everyone would benefit from this QoL change, don't they?

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Originally Posted by Dinivas

I think a much simpler fix would be to either crank up the enmity generated by Flash or give Circle of Scorn to PLD earlier than 50. PLD's biggest weakness sub-40 for many people is a lack of true AoE threat like WAR's Overpower. Changing Shield Oath to 30 is only a band-aid fix. If a PLD is going to have trouble holding enmity, it'll be AoE and not ST. Shield Oath will only make it harder to lose AoE enmity, but a PLD that isn't paying attention will still lose it.

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Yeah, lol, much simpler... not.
Flash and Scorn in general do not need a buff and this is not what this thread is about.
If you have problems keeping enmity in end game, go look at the other how-to-tank threads and learn, because the problem is most likely you.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Yeah I do, because they affect my game when I do low level roulette.
You are acting as if this change would actually be a buff where it isn't.
Those bad tanks will eventually get Shieldoath anyways, so, of course you can have the attitude to just say "s*ck it up and deal with the bad tanks" (no fun) whereas everyone would benefit from this QoL change, don't they?

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It's not much of a QoL change, if you get stuck in anything pre Haukke manor is my point, which makes it that much more unnecessary.

And nothing should be changed just to make it easier for the worst players.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

It's not much of a QoL change, if you get stuck in anything pre Haukke manor is my point, which makes it that much more unnecessary.

And nothing should be changed just to make it easier for the worst players.

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guess we are talking cross purposes.
I am for switching Shield Oath with Sword Oath, which will just make the life of PLDs post 30 easier, no more, no less.
Never did i say that you need it to do the job if you are good (more of the contrairy in fact), but you get it with 40 anyways, so why bully the "bad tanks" from 30 to 40?

Bad/inexperienced tanks will have more fun and hopefully keep playing AND improving, whereas the rest of the party will have a nicer run too.

My only concern was PLD having Halone and Shield Oath with 30, which would be kinda OP.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Flash and Scorn in general do not need a buff and this is not what this thread is about.
If you have problems keeping enmity in end game, go look at the other how-to-tank threads and learn, because the problem is most likely you.

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This thread isn't about end-game, it's about low levels.

I have stepped into tanking now to further expand my understanding of the issues and I stand behind my initial thoughts of Maurauder vs Gladiator. Marauder has just been given more tools natively and more access to tools from other classes. Overpower cements monsters and is an AoE frontal cone. Gladiator gets nothing like it. They also get access to Flash as a supplemental tool, but I have barely had cause to use it. Overpower is a devastating threat attack and a couple of those on the pull and I don't even have to mark. Then it's just tab through each with the chain.

There DOES need to be something additional for low level gladiators or something about the rate of Flash's enmity decay needs to change. It's not fair that Marauder gets access to the gladiator tools AND superior native tools and I can't see how anyone argues that this is balanced.

It's not needed, you need to flash more.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

It's not needed, you need to flash more.

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No. It's not enough to pull threat back if someone has gone ape shit on mob #3 completely ignoring marks (it happens. people are tools).

Every single article or post I have read on the subject says basically the same thing: Gladiator should get a better AoE tool on par with what Marauder gets. I've seen firsthand from a DPS and Healer PoV that Gladiators struggle disproportionately. I've now started playing both classes myself. It's been super fun, but there's some issues with gladiator gameplay or flash's enmity duration. It doesn't cement mobs as well as overpower does.

SE trying to make a "AoE" tank and "ST" tank (which is the most common "explanation" I have found for why things are this way) is one of the worst decisions they could have made and that's saying something considering the history of this game. Blood tank versus blink tank versus some other method of gameplay tank (parry etc)? Ok. AoE versus ST? No.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Yeah, lol, much simpler... not.
Flash and Scorn in general do not need a buff and this is not what this thread is about.
If you have problems keeping enmity in end game, go look at the other how-to-tank threads and learn, because the problem is most likely you.

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We're not talking about end game, we're talking about low level. I didn't say Scorn needed a buff, I said it could be unlocked before endgame. The thread is about holding threat against mobs in low level dungeons. Many of us know how to tank and how to keep enmity, but that doesn't mean you can't acknowledge that there's a disproportionate level of skill required between Gladiator and Marauder in low level dungeons. People are still leveling their first class in addition to level synced max level characters running roulettes for tomes.

A Marauder can Overpower 1-2x and use Flash if they want and never lose AoE enmity. Gladiators have to spam Flash and tab target their Halone combo to make sure people aren't unloading on the wrong mobs to pull hate. It's not compelling gameplay and is a great way to discourage some people from wanting to level a Gladiator. Scorn every 25 seconds on top of tab targeting Halone with the occasional Flash is more fun and makes more sense than a rotation of Flash > Flash > Flash > Flash > Flash > Halone > Flash > Riot Blade at low levels. Tanks are already at a premium on some servers. Making one or two mechanically simple QoL changes to GLA/PLD could help.

Should a tank have to work to keep mobs on him? Yes. Nobody's asking for a WoW-like enmity system where a tank hits a mob or a pack one time and can never lose their attention. We're simply asking for the skill floor to be raised a little bit. A bad DPS only hurts themselves and makes a run take slightly longer, but a bad tank that doesn't know their class or the enmity mechanic hurts the entire group. Raising the skill floor ever so slightly makes it easier on everybody in that group. A bad tank will still be a bad tank, but the entire group shouldn't suffer because one person just wanted a quick roulette queue.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Gladiator should get a better AoE tool on par with what Marauder gets.

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The only difference between GLD and MRD from an AoE enmity standpoint is that GLD has to throw out more Flashes than MRD has to throw out Overpowers. This makes sense because Overpower is cripplingly expensive whereas Flash is pretty much free (because it costs MP). If you expect to match GLD with MRD GCD for GCD, it's not going to work. If you're having problems with low level enmity on the GLD, it's because you're not using enough Flash (the same can largely be said about MRD and Overpower as well): they're the only really effective enmity tools you've got until your late 20s (you get more ePot GCD out of spamming your AoE than you do out of your t2 ST combo).

The major difference/contention between WAR/MRD and PLD/GLD is not their AoE enmity generation. It's their AoE *damage*. WAR has amazing AoE damage (it's actually the best of all melee classes); PLD basically has none (Circle of Scorn is a whopping 25 pot/GCD over time). They're both entirely capable of generating enough AoE enmity, but PLD is basically worthless in any scenario that demands AoE *damage* because it might as well not have any.

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It's been super fun, but there's some issues with gladiator gameplay or flash's enmity duration. It doesn't cement mobs as well as overpower does.

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Enmity lasts until either you or the target dies. It doesn't have a duration. Enmity is governed by the potency of the attack.

Flash generates the same enmity as an attack with a potency of 495. Overpower has a potency of 120 with a 5x enmity mod, which means that it generates the enmity of an attack with a potency of 600. Overpower generates is just over 20% of what Flash does. But, as I said before, Overpower generates more per GCD because you can't use it as often due to an incredibly high cost. Flash can basically be spammed until you're out of mp with no real deleterious effects. If you spam Overpower too much, you're going to be sitting there doing nothing for extended periods, waiting for your TP to regenerate.

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SE trying to make a "AoE" tank and "ST" tank (which is the most common "explanation" I have found for why things are this way) is one of the worst decisions they could have made and that's saying something considering the history of this game.

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WAR and PLD are in no way split between a AoE tank and an ST tank. Whoever told you that is just being an idiot. The difference in tank "category" is that the PLD is the simple/passive tank whereas WAR is the complex/active tank (complex being a comparative term; WAR is complex when compared to PLD). PLD requires negligible forward thinking and has 1 option for whatever situation it needs that accomplishes said goals perfectly well. WAR requires forward thinking (Wrath generation, consumption, debuff application, Pacification) and has multiple tools for any given situation that you have to weigh the cost/benefits of each for (SC v. Overpower; SE v. SP v. BB; Berserk or not to Berserk).

The difference between WAR and PLD isn't in anything like AoE or ST focus (in fact, properly played, a WAR can outshine PLD on ST tanking just as well as it outshines PLD on AoE tanking). It's in playstyle.

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Blood tank versus blink tank versus some other method of gameplay tank (parry etc)?

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Those aren't gameplay methods. Those are mechanics. It wouldn't matter if WAR was built with no self heals, barely any deviation from DR, and no extra hp; WAR would still play completely differently than PLD because WAR is a complex/active tank whereas PLD is a simple/passive tank.

Well said

/10 char

Problem is flash isnt really fun move to just spam nor is it as efficient as overpower is for both dmg and enmity on aoe packs.
Also TP isn't that big of an issue.

But yeah flash still gets the job done.