Leviathan's Wipe at 20%?

Some people here...while I won't say stupid...is pretty much...derp. Seriously....deeeeeeerrp.

What you do, is you don't hit Levi with lb and he won't enrage.

1: lb bubbles without Levi, aka back row
2: save lb and do bubbles like normal and then lb Levi after.

If you still get a hard wipe, kick that DPs for hitting the wrong thing.

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

DPS need to get better as to not DPSing? what logic is this

well, DPS need to adapt, ofc, but that doesn't make this mechanic less stupid as it's punishing players who did better than the Dev's thought
just think about when ilv even higher than this and there may be even more stupidity like this surfaced more and more

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The logic behind this is that for once DPS can't be the loose cannon and has to actually control themselves.

Just because we think a mechanic is bad doesn't mean we have trouble dealing with it. Very few groups are even capably of causing the wipe, and it is simple to avoid once you know your in a group that can - but that is not the point.

The whole argument is that it is just not a reasonably visible mechanic.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

Just because we think a mechanic is bad doesn't mean we have trouble dealing with it. Very few groups are even capably of causing the wipe, and it is simple to avoid once you know your in a group that can - but that is not the point.

The whole argument is that it is just not a reasonably visible mechanic.

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Why do you mean "not reasonable visible mechanic"? you see a healthbar of the thing right? it doesn't take rocket science to figure out where the 20% approximately. is (hint its not when the hp bar is full)
Do you want levi to yell "raaagh, i am nearing the 20%, stop attacking me or i will destroy you raaaagh" or something?

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Do you want levi to yell "raaagh, i am nearing the 20%, stop attacking me or i will destroy you raaaagh" or something?

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No, we want him (and Ifrit) to become invulnerable to damage temporarily if the game doesn't want us skipping certain phases or big attacks. You know, like how Garuda and Titan and most likely several other non-primal fights I can't think of atm already do, so obviously the programming is already in the game somewhere?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

No, we want him (and Ifrit) to become invulnerable to damage temporarily if the game doesn't want us skipping certain phases or big attacks. You know, like how Garuda and Titan and most likely several other non-primal fights I can't think of atm already do, so obviously the programming is already in the game somewhere?

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All i read here is "i want the game to correct my own mistakes cause i can't control my own power".
Can i as a healer also ask that tanks get invurnable when they get below a certain % since i don't want to deal with death sentence or something?

It's actions on mobs like this that really make it a requirement to have a mob % number on their health bar.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

I really think enrages like this are a poor mechanic in a game where you can't see the boss's health as a percent. If the DPS are doing well, let them do well. DPS should really only have to hold back for things like threat, T6's Blight, Spumes, or to kill an add at a specific location/time vs holding DPS to drop a boss from 23% down to 20%. The former, provides visual queues and easily identified benchmarks for when to start/stop, while the hard percentage ones require parsers to do accurately, which SE doesn't want us to use.

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This one doesn't require a parser, though. It's actually slightly below 20% that forces the enrage. I've had runs where I can Misery's End before the second spume phase ends and he didn't enrage, but I'm certain we were close. Of course, that still leaves you with "Crap, stop dps now. He just hit 20%" as your course of action, which is stupid. As long as you have a PLD/MNK/WAR/DRG/BRD in the party who can call out when to slow/stop DPS, you *should* be able to not die, even in high DPS groups. Of course, that assumes that everyone didn't just refresh dots right as he hit 20%. Pretty sure having SMN SCH BRD MNK and DRG all have dots rolling might screw you regardless, especially as we get more gear.

That said, the people defending this mechanic really need a reality check. If you really think that an 18% (guessing) insta-wipe after the party deals with all the actual mechanics appropriately is somehow appropriate, I'm really glad I've never played any game you've designed.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

All i read here is "i want the game to correct my own mistakes cause i can't control my own power".
Can i as a healer also ask that tanks get invurnable when they get below a certain % since i don't want to deal with death sentence or something?

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I'm sure you would love to have your tanks dropping dead from full hp without boss touching them or a clear indicator as to why. How about you try healing less? But how do you heal less and not have the tank die to normal stuff?

(PS: DPS are supposed to deal damage so that the party doesn't die to boss enrage, but suddenly, without any clear indicator, they are not supposed to DPS? See the dilemma?)

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Why do you mean "not reasonable visible mechanic"? you see a healthbar of the thing right? it doesn't take rocket science to figure out where the 20% approximately. is (hint its not when the hp bar is full)
Do you want levi to yell "raaagh, i am nearing the 20%, stop attacking me or i will destroy you raaaagh" or something?

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Can you tell me that you could reasonably determine where, on a health bar, the 20% mark is? Compared to the 19% or 21% marks? Or hell, even the 18 or 22% ones?

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Originally Posted by Assirra

All i read here is "i want the game to correct my own mistakes cause i can't control my own power".
Can i as a healer also ask that tanks get invurnable when they get below a certain % since i don't want to deal with death sentence or something?

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More strawmans, yawn.

How about this scenario: do too much healing to a tank and the raid will instantly wipe, with no visual indication. Would you defend this mechanic?

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

Can you tell me that you could reasonably determine where, on a health bar, the 20% mark is? Compared to the 19% or 21% marks? Or hell, even the 18 or 22% ones?



More strawmans, yawn.

How about this scenario: do too much healing to a tank and the raid will instantly wipe, with no visual indication. Would you defend this mechanic?

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Now you are turning stuff around rather then making a valid comparison. the whole thing is not that you do too much damage in general, its about WHEN to do damage.
If i had to stop healing for a certain time (and the tank was not taking damage, like hey, phase switching during ruda for instance) then yea i would defend it. It prevents me from clicking the heal button like a monkey and instead watch what is going on.

Also, why does it have to be precisely a certain %? Just stop around the 25 mark (divide the bar in 4) and by the time the dots are ticked out it should be a couple more % further making it an ideal time to stop.

Because DPS sitting around unable to act in fear of an arbitrary un-obvious mechanic is extremely poor game design. Just like if a fight required healers to just go afk for a period of time or risk causing an instant wipe.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Now you are turning stuff around rather then making a valid comparison. the whole thing is not that you do too much damage in general, its about WHEN to do damage.
If i had to stop healing for a certain time (and the tank was not taking damage, like hey, phase switching during ruda for instance) then yea i would defend it. It prevents me from clicking the heal button like a monkey and instead watch what is going on.

Also, why does it have to be precisely a certain %? Just stop around the 25 mark (divide the bar in 4) and by the time the dots are ticked out it should be a couple more % further making it an ideal time to stop.

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It's not like DPS can do damage while Levi is diving. We're just hitting him normally while we can. Same way you would keep healing a tank while he's still getting hit. Then 10 seconds later everybody dies for no apparent reason? Oh I know, you can just stop healing the tank, let him die for all I care, you can always raise him up during "phase change" right? What a brilliant way to deal with a "mechanic".

Again, it's not like DPS don't know how to deal with this. The argument is that's really poor design and goes against the role of DPS, just as much as it goes against healers' role of stopping to heal while people are still getting hit.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

Because DPS sitting around unable to act in fear of an arbitrary un-obvious mechanic is extremely poor game design. Just like if a fight required healers to just go afk for a period of time or risk causing an instant wipe.

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Are we talking about the levi fight anymore, or are you talking out of your rear?

The point is to do the bubbles and not go and hit levi at the same time, much like how ifrit, you do the nails instead of hitting ifrit at the same time.

There is no point dps is afk, only choosing the proper targets.

Some people are really start to talk out their rear in what exactly the issue.

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Originally Posted by AlyssaFhey

Simply put, either they start giving us Total hp/% or they remove the mechanics. Mechanics we gotta eyeball is stupid. Especially since Half the DPS classes have DoTs that they can't control after using.

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Yeah eyeballing is a skill. You're one of those guys who go to the shooting range with a scope huh?
Even more to make your self look like an idiot: yes, you can know exactly when you reached 20% with a visual indicator. Both mercy stroke and misery's end activate at 20% (and for your information, you don't wipe at 20% because I'm able to actually use those moves). Most of this is just people in your group attacking the boss instead of spumes when they appear anyway. It's fixable by doing the fight properly.

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Originally Posted by Fated

Can't believe people actually defend crap like this.

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Yea its getting ridiculous around here, I can appreicate people defending something worthwhile but this is just bad mechanics and lazy design.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yea its getting ridiculous around here, I can appreicate people defending something worthwhile but this is just bad mechanics and lazy design.

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considering twin is pretty much the same thing, as well as many many other fights, why are you defending your own statement.

lazy to self > lazy design

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Are we talking about the levi fight anymore, or are you talking out of your rear?

The point is to do the bubbles and not go and hit levi at the same time, much like how ifrit, you do the nails instead of hitting ifrit at the same time.

There is no point dps is afk, only choosing the proper targets.

Some people are really start to talk out their rear in what exactly the issue.

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If your DPS is high enough, you'll push it anyway. Are you talking out of your rear, or is your dps simply lacking?

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Even more to make your self look like an idiot: yes, you can know exactly when you reached 20% with a visual indicator. Both mercy stroke and misery's end activate at 20% (and for your information, you don't wipe at 20% because I'm able to actually use those moves). Most of this is just people in your group attacking the boss instead of spumes when they appear anyway. It's fixable by doing the fight properly.

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Not if your DPS is good. Granted most people in this game are abhorrent at DPS. Also Misery's End and Mercy Stroke are not available to all DPS.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Yea its getting ridiculous around here, I can appreicate people defending something worthwhile but this is just bad mechanics and lazy design.

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Making sure you can't brute-force your way past mechanics is not bad and/or lazy design.

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Originally Posted by MrLeonheart

Making sure you can't brute-force your way past mechanics is not bad and/or lazy design.

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Except they have a better method of dealing with this on fights like Garuda/Titan where immunity simply occurs, not just "lol you dead".

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

Except they have a better method of dealing with this on fights like Garuda/Titan where immunity simply occurs, not just "lol you dead".

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Maybe they thought people would learn to gauge HP bars better and know how to control DPS by now, considering the progression of Garuda -> Titan -> Ifrit -> Levi. Obviously people didn't learn from Iffy X.

Ifrit EX was horrible design for the same reason though - and you can't tell me that you can accurately identify 20% on that HP bar without third party tools.

This is the horrible design in the same way that a mechanic forcing healers to not act for 30 seconds or tanks to not do anything for 30 seconds is bad design. Or how certain fights have tanks in extremely trivial roles (Titan HM, Levi EX MT).

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

Ifrit EX was horrible design for the same reason though - and you can't tell me that you can accurately identify 20% on that HP bar without third party tools.

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If your party communicates, your BRD/WAR will tell when it drops below 20%. Considering BRD is almost always wanted for the fights, and WAR as well for Levi X, you always have a way of knowing when you reach 20%.

"Drops below 20%" is enough to wipe you. Even ticking DoTs are enough to wipe you. And I still don't see a good justification for why DPS should arbitrarily have to hold back.

this happened to us at launch a lot and we had no idea why. we thought it was a bug. turns out, we just had good dps lol

no matter if you can judge it's HP or not, it's just a wrong mechanic the way it is. especially with DoTs all over the place you can hardly control once they are setup.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

no matter if you can judge it's HP or not, it's just a wrong mechanic the way it is. especially with DoTs all over the place you can hardly control once they are setup.

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Then stop your dots in time, it has been done in other mmo's without issues.

I swear some of you dps'ers would get a heart attack as a healer because you have to actually pay attention to stuff.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Then stop your dots in time, it has been done in other mmo's without issues.

I swear some of you dps'ers would get a heart attack as a healer because you have to actually pay attention to stuff.

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Why is it always the healers who are the arrogant ones in this game?

Healing is very easy in this game. 2.5s GCD. Very little in the way of gear checks (it's mostly all timing). Healers in this game would have a heart attack trying to heal in harder games.

There are many DPS checks in this game; precious few HPS checks. Acting like healing is this ridiculously difficult skilful affair and DPS is brainless is amusing to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Then stop your dots in time, it has been done in other mmo's without issues.

I swear some of you dps'ers would get a heart attack as a healer because you have to actually pay attention to stuff.

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When are people going to understand that it's easy to deal with the enrage. That's not the issue. The issue is that it's poor design. Design as in the same sense that it would be poor design to go through 3 confirmation windows just to ride your mount.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

The point is to do the bubbles and not go and hit levi at the same time, much like how ifrit, you do the nails instead of hitting ifrit at the same time.

There is no point dps is afk, only choosing the proper targets.

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This is almost a valid point, but not quite. We chose the proper target. We killed the spumes. We even staggered killing them so that we wouldn't all die to 4x splash and 2x roar all hitting at once. The only targets left at this point are Leviathan, Leviathan's Tail, and the bubbles the tank grabs. Are you suggesting we kill the bubbles? Because otherwise we get to afk until dashes.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

Also Misery's End and Mercy Stroke are not available to all DPS.

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But Mercy Stroke is available to both tanks. So, yes, there is a reliable indicator of 20%. That said. . .

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

"Drops below 20%" is enough to wipe you. Even ticking DoTs are enough to wipe you. And I still don't see a good justification for why DPS should arbitrarily have to hold back.

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. . .this is still very valid. I get that the content is meant for ilvl 80, but outgearing it by 10 ilvl should not be enough to, using normal strategy, push an enrage for too much DPS without any real justification.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Then stop your dots in time, it has been done in other mmo's without issues.

I swear some of you dps'ers would get a heart attack as a healer because you have to actually pay attention to stuff.

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Considering that healers in this game usually have enough time to stop and DPS, or even DPS almost full time, or even solo heal content meant for two healers. . .yeah, not seeing that as significantly more challenging. And before you ask, yes, I have played healer here.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

If your DPS is high enough, you'll push it anyway. Are you talking out of your rear, or is your dps simply lacking?



Not if your DPS is good. Granted most people in this game are abhorrent at DPS. Also Misery's End and Mercy Stroke are not available to all DPS.

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Mercy stroke is available to all melee and tanks, misery's end is available to archer. Yes, SE's intention is to prevent parties of all casters. Do you have a problem (regardless, both tanks have it so you make yourself look like an idiot)?

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Mercy stroke is available to all melee and tanks, misery's end is available to archer. Yes, SE's intention is to prevent parties of all casters. Do you have a problem (regardless, both tanks have it so you make yourself look like an idiot)?

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My problem is that all DPS do not have access to the information required to moderate their DPS. As I stated earlier, if you stop DPS only when the 20% thing lights up, there is a good chance that remaining DoTs etc will push it over the edge.

Having to rely on tanks for the information required to dps is poor design in this instance. To use an illustrative example, it would be like if a mechanic similar to Briny Mirror had information about it which was only displayed to two DPS or similar, so the healers had to rely on these DPS to tell them when to stop healing (or they'll wipe the raid instantly, in this example) - and god forbid they have Regen or Whispering Dawn running...

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Originally Posted by MrLeonheart

Making sure you can't brute-force your way past mechanics is not bad and/or lazy design.

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Yes it is, because if a dev has provided a way for that to happen then I hardly see instant death as a good solution.

I would think providing a hyper phase would be more challenging where more adds spawn or the pattern of Levi's moves change, instant KO is just cheap and basically SE adding a "WTF no you don't" button.

As someone else said above having immunity would be better although its still cheap and lazy.

In what world is it right to punish players for being too good ? .. SE's one obviously!

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Originally Posted by Jinko

In what world is it right to punish players for being too good ? .. SE's one obviously!

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Every world except the one in your imagination. It's call hitting the right target.

In almost any case of "hp enrage" it's because people are not hitting the proper target, be it nails, conflags, spiny, or in this case bubbles. Any number of games much less MMO games hitting things at wrong time wrong place is unutterably your own darn fault, and no one but your own /whine.

It's call being an idiot and then defending why you didn't do an idiotic thing.

Maybe we should never invite you to garuda ex as well, because obviously you can't not hit something shinny on your target box. Heck you probably wake sleeping targets as well, or stun resist bosses to wipe parties.

Here are the facts of what happens.
Levi pops splumes at xyz hp. You are stupid and start hitting levi while ignoring plumes, then complain that levi enrages because you can't leave levi alone while killig splumes. If you do it like you should, Levi will move on to the next phase once the splumes are dead.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Here are the facts of what happens.
Levi pops splumes at xyz hp. You are stupid and start hitting levi while ignoring plumes, then complain that levi enrages because you can't leave levi alone while killig splumes. If you do it like you should, Levi will move on to the next phase once the splumes are dead.

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Here are the facts of what happens with good dps:
Levi pops plumes at xyz hp. You kill plumes, and then hit Levi. Levi then enrages due to arbitrary mechanic.

You've attacked the correct targets throughout. You've still died due to the arbitrary nature of the mechanic.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Every world except the one in your imagination. It's call hitting the right target.

In almost any case of "hp enrage" it's because people are not hitting the proper target, be it nails, conflags, spiny, or in this case bubbles. Any number of games much less MMO games hitting things at wrong time wrong place is unutterably your own darn fault, and no one but your own /whine.

It's call being an idiot and then defending why you didn't do an idiotic thing.

Maybe we should never invite you to garuda ex as well, because obviously you can't not hit something shinny on your target box. Heck you probably wake sleeping targets as well, or stun resist bosses to wipe parties.

Here are the facts of what happens.
Levi pops splumes at xyz hp. You are stupid and start hitting levi while ignoring plumes, then complain that levi enrages because you can't leave levi alone while killig splumes. If you do it like you should, Levi will move on to the next phase once the splumes are dead.

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Spumes already have an auto-fail mechanic, if you fail to down spumes, the converter is too low, you wipe. If the DPS in the party Take out all the spumes in time, they have passed said mechanic. They hit the correct target.

I don't understand why an enrage mechanic exists at all. You don't enrage when the tank has too much enmity, you don't enrage when the healers do a good job and keep everyone alive, so why is it acceptable for efficient DPS to cause it? It's double bad when there's also a hard timer based enrage. Hurry up and get him down, just you know, not too fast.

This is also an issue that will only get worse as DPS climbs. At some point we're going to all have i110 weapons.

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Originally Posted by Cailae

Spumes already have an auto-fail mechanic, if you fail to down spumes, the converter is too low, you wipe. If the DPS in the party Take out all the spumes in time, they have passed said mechanic. They hit the correct target.

I don't understand why an enrage mechanic exists at all. You don't enrage when the tank has too much enmity, you don't enrage when the healers do a good job and keep everyone alive, so why is it acceptable for efficient DPS to cause it? It's double bad when there's also a hard timer based enrage. Hurry up and get him down, just you know, not too fast.

This is also an issue that will only get worse as DPS climbs. At some point we're going to all have i110 weapons.

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And Echo buff next patch...

The only real point i see here is the Hp% which is an oversight on SE's part, the idea that pushing a boss too hard causing a wipe while not done in this exact way Has been done before in other MMOs. So the real issue here is Not knowing exactly when to slow up the dps but as stated by someone in a previous post the boss in T1 people flat out stoped dps to make sure he didnt split with stacks up so not like people havent figured out how to handle not dpsing.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Every world except the one in your imagination. It's call hitting the right target.

In almost any case of "hp enrage" it's because people are not hitting the proper target, be it nails, conflags, spiny, or in this case bubbles. Any number of games much less MMO games hitting things at wrong time wrong place is unutterably your own darn fault, and no one but your own /whine.

It's call being an idiot and then defending why you didn't do an idiotic thing.

Maybe we should never invite you to garuda ex as well, because obviously you can't not hit something shinny on your target box. Heck you probably wake sleeping targets as well, or stun resist bosses to wipe parties.

Here are the facts of what happens.
Levi pops splumes at xyz hp. You are stupid and start hitting levi while ignoring plumes, then complain that levi enrages because you can't leave levi alone while killig splumes. If you do it like you should, Levi will move on to the next phase once the splumes are dead.

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As I already said before you even posted this, the parties hitting this enrage have already killed spumes. They attacked all the right targets in all the right order, then died for it. Why don't you understand basic English?

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Originally Posted by Nyxilin

The only real point i see here is the Hp% which is an oversight on SE's part, the idea that pushing a boss too hard causing a wipe while not done in this exact way Has been done before in other MMOs. So the real issue here is Not knowing exactly when to slow up the dps but as stated by someone in a previous post the boss in T1 people flat out stoped dps to make sure he didnt split with stacks up so not like people havent figured out how to handle not dpsing.

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Caduceus doesn't enrage shortly after he splits, though. He certainly doesn't hard enrage and instantly wipe the entire raid if you don't kill him fast enough. As Cailae pointed out, SE is expecting us to DPS fast enough to avoid the timer enrage while going slow enough to avoid this enrage, and the % enrage is tuned so tight that ilvl 90 parties are hitting it.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Every world except the one in your imagination. It's call hitting the right target.

In almost any case of "hp enrage" it's because people are not hitting the proper target, be it nails, conflags, spiny, or in this case bubbles. Any number of games much less MMO games hitting things at wrong time wrong place is unutterably your own darn fault, and no one but your own /whine.

It's call being an idiot and then defending why you didn't do an idiotic thing.

Maybe we should never invite you to garuda ex as well, because obviously you can't not hit something shinny on your target box. Heck you probably wake sleeping targets as well, or stun resist bosses to wipe parties.

Here are the facts of what happens.
Levi pops splumes at xyz hp. You are stupid and start hitting levi while ignoring plumes, then complain that levi enrages because you can't leave levi alone while killig splumes. If you do it like you should, Levi will move on to the next phase once the splumes are dead.

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The only idiot here is you, making a lot of assumptions in that post of yours, keep up the good work.

As others have pointed out people are doing the correct things, you just don't understand or have jumped to a stupid conclusion.