Counter Skill on mobs miss too please! not only on evade

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

OP here... OK I guess it makes sense to keep miss and evade separated, OK with that now but how about making it at least 100% hit on the counter moves...lol

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Well, it could be at certain situations...like Haymaker being 100% in exchange of TP cost going to 500TP...because for a 250TP WS i don't think it would be fair it being 100% hit...so i'd leave haymaker 100% and 500TP and jarring as it is now since it already is (IMO) good enough as it is now ^^

And off-topic...only now i noticed your subligar keep changing colors... o_o

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Originally Posted by Lienn

And off-topic...only now i noticed your subligar keep changing colors... o_o

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My subligar is special like that, does that in game too but you have to come really close to see it.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Simian is cool now...much more accurate and strong...now its worth the 1500 TP. I'm often popping 800ish damage with it nowadays (each hit going from 90~130).

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But has it been confirmed that mobs don't get TP from our attacks? That's a pretty big draw back of using multi-hit weapon skills.

I'm not really sure if it would receive TP based on action, on damage taken or per hit...but i'd assume its based on action, like multi-hit WS from FFXI...where a simian trash would actually give the monster the same TP AA or another basic attack/WS do.

I'd appreciate some dev response to this tho...even tho Bay never answered my dumb posts here (only the serious ones sent to them)...i feel so lonely and rejected! Q.Q At this pace i'll have to change to Rukkirii's side if i want dev response TT_TT

An enemy missing you is pretty much you indirectly evading them. In either case the enemy has missed, it's just slightly different. I still think miss and evade should both count for evade condition attacks.

Also, how's the damage from Simian Thrash since 1.18a. Supposedly it got a boost.

You know...would be nice if they actually added some retaliation chain...some other extra actions that could only be usable after you already countered someone...just like MK brutalities...you being able to chain actions until one miss or you run out of TP.

I actually suggested them this long ago for MNK playstyle since MNK can be more martial arts-oriented so landing not one counter but and entire set of counters when you get an opening would be very cool...

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Originally Posted by Murugan

But has it been confirmed that mobs don't get TP from our attacks? That's a pretty big draw back of using multi-hit weapon skills.

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TP generated is mainly damage based, so the difference, if any, is not great.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

An enemy missing you is pretty much you indirectly evading them. In either case the enemy has missed, it's just slightly different. I still think miss and evade should both count for evade condition attacks.

Also, how's the damage from Simian Thrash since 1.18a. Supposedly it got a boost.

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After some basic testing, I found Simian Thrash, when used at 3k TP and every hit connects, is the strongest Weaponskill in the game - and rightfully so as it is very situational due to requiring an evade at such high TP to be used effectively.

It out-damaged a 3k TP Victimize II on a mob with 3 enfeebling effects on it by a large margin: (130-150) x9 VS 600~.

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After some basic testing, I found Simian Thrash, when used at 3k TP and every hit connects, is not the strongest Weaponskill in the game - and rightfully so as it is very situational due to requiring an evade at such high TP to be used effectively.

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You mean that it IS the strongest WS in game.
Also every hit always connects for me, did they change that?

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

TP generated is mainly damage based, so the difference, if any, is not great.


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What are you basing that off of? The TP=Damage Taken theory. I tank quite a bit and unless mobs work on an entirely different system, I find that hard to believe.

To the person above, it has always worked where each hit in Simian had a chance to miss.

Weird Ive never miss a single hit!

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Originally Posted by Meleena

You mean that it IS the strongest WS in game.
Also every hit always connects for me, did they change that?

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Silly typing mistake. Fixed ^^

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Originally Posted by Murugan

What are you basing that off of? The TP=Damage Taken theory. I tank quite a bit and unless mobs work on an entirely different system, I find that hard to believe.

To the person above, it has always worked where each hit in Simian had a chance to miss.

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I'm basing it off my experiences across all classes.

TP generated is based on basic attack damage done, damage taken and damage blocked. Number of hits plays little role, if any.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Weird Ive never miss a single hit!

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lol sure sure, what ever you say

just so you know, I've speced 174 dex, plus every acc or dex if no acc piece was available, and I still miss at least 1 attack out of the 9 on almost every thrash, and that's even against mobs a couple ranks under

Then they changed that on 1.18
I've never missed a single hit ever before, if first hit connects, they all connect.
I haven't been able to confirm this post 1.18.

I didn't notice misses anymore, but before 1.18 it does missed alot. The thing is that you have only 4 damage spots and 8 hits so half of them often were overlapped...but at text log you do could notice the misses since each hit had a separated damage line.

I'll just confirm post 1.18 simian thrash does miss some hits.

Yeah I was talking from my log experience.

From an actual boxing standpoint, there is a difference...but the game gets it completely wrong of course. I really don't think they know anything about boxing.

A 'miss' is extremely chumpy. If anything you should get to do three times the amount of moves you get to do when you simply evade. If you stand still, don't move your head, don't move your hands, and they still miss you, they suck.

Meanwhile, most of the time you evade somebody, you won't actually be able to counter.

Not that this class is really a 'pugilist' at all. I think somebody had a great idea for the class, but then the lazy dev team just made something that was basically a bit of monk and a bit of thief from FF11 because they knew how to do that, but didn't know anything about boxing.

There really is a lot of depth to boxing as a sport, you could easily make a cool class out of it. You shouldn't have to struggle to invent different styles that emphasize different things, because they already exist.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Then they changed that on 1.18
I've never missed a single hit ever before, if first hit connects, they all connect.
I haven't been able to confirm this post 1.18.

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I was speaking of pre 1.18 ^^
I don't doubt that you may have had simian thrashes that didn't miss a hit, or the possibility that the times you checked your log, they happened to have 0 misses. But to say never missed, either you were using it on very low level mobs where you where hit capped, or you've only used simian thrash a hand full of times pre 1.18.

I started farming sheep with my archer at around 40, the sheep were level 1-7 maybe 9, on those i was hit capped and had a 1 arrow 1 kill ratio, I don't know at what level difference or stats this becomes the case, but I know even on ants level 35-39 pre 1.18 my 50 pugilist would miss once in a while.

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I was speaking of pre 1.18 ^^
I don't doubt that you may have had simian thrashes that didn't miss a hit, or the possibility that the times you checked your log, they happened to have 0 misses. But to say never missed, either you were using it on very low level mobs where you where hit capped, or you've only used simian thrash a hand full of times pre 1.18.

I started farming sheep with my archer at around 40, the sheep were level 1-7 maybe 9, on those i was hit capped and had a 1 arrow 1 kill ratio, I don't know at what level difference or stats this becomes the case, but I know even on ants level 35-39 pre 1.18 my 50 pugilist would miss once in a while.

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I am not saying that you guys are wrong, If you say it can miss then it can, all I was saying is that I've never seen it miss so I naturally thought that if first hit connects then the rest of the move also connects.
Theres no reason for me to lie.
Anyway I am of topic but I wanted to say that.

Back on topic:

Waaltar I know what you mean but then again this is a game and it has certain rules to obay.
In that line of thought, "Evade" unlocks some moves on your arsenal just like "Block" and "Parry" does for other classes, I think it's unreasonable to ask for this advantage on "miss" simply cause miss is a different function.
Next time we will be asking for counters to be accesible all the time like normal moves... some things just can't happen.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

Waaltar I know what you mean but then again this is a game and it has certain rules to obay..

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Well yeah...that is how bad, unoriginal games get made. Instead of innovating some new game play to make the new concept work, they just give up and do what they've done before. They make what is easiest for them to make, not what people would actually want.

These guys are supposed to be the real pros among pros, working at what has been one of the most respected companies in the game industry going back like 20 years now. It's mind boggling that they failed so badly at following through on implementing the basic concept for this class. Not only is it not at all what they told us it was going to be, it's barely a boxer at all. You punch things but that is as close as it gets.

Overall it's just another thing that makes me wonder where all the money and time really went.

Really though, "miss" is like what happens when you aren't aware someone is shooting an arrow at you and they still don't hit, or you just don't have to dodge because you can see that you won't be hit. It makes more sense for ranged combat. In close combat it is really going to be 'evading' or getting hit, mostly. A 'miss' would be a huge huge mistake.

Designing this sort of basic stuff well is really much more important to a gameplay experience than a fancy new 'crystal tools' engine or whatever it was they spent all the money on.

I disagree, some rules are there to define the gender, in any RPG ever there was a chance to miss, it makes the game more intresting.
Evade is still something different.
These rules have nothing to do with inovation on any level, Ihave seen true inovation on combat system in FF12 and FF13 and people don't seem to like them for various reasons cause you can't please anybody.

This is the game we are playing, you can change some stuff but you cant remake the genre.
If you want to play something else, there are other games.

In the meantime I'm willing to discuss this further with you if you have something more in depth to say for your comments.

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Originally Posted by Meleena

This is the game we are playing, you can change some stuff but you cant remake the genre.
If you want to play something else, there are other games.

In the meantime I'm willing to discuss this further with you if you have something more in depth to say for your comments.

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The game is on death's door. Clearly most people who bought the game have already opted for abandoning the game. Maybe half or even more than half of the player base is playing on faith that the game will be improved, and if they were assured that the game would remain the same as it is now, they would quit and the game would be shut down.

What I'm looking forward to now are the games that ARE reinventing the genre. I never liked or played the genre much in its early 21st century form(MMOs in the early 2000s, I go all the way back to FF1 and earlier for RPGs), I've been waiting for it to evolve some fun. FF14 really looked like it was going to be that game, but alas...

FF used to reinvent the genre with every title, or maybe a better way to put it is that they set a new standard. FF12 and FF13 however prove that not all changes made are innovations. An innovation has to improve the game play experience and most people agreed that FF12 and FF13 were low points for the series rather than something better.

When/if I give up on FF14, it is probably the last time I will ever trust SE enough to buy an SE game.

I offer criticism here because it is on the topic of the thread and it could help improve a game badly in need of improvement, and they are actually still working on the combat system, so suggestions are not at all pointless.

A major part of why I bought FF14 after the Warhammer fiasco was because I thought SE was a major company who would follow through on their projects.

My criticism here does not mean I do not enjoy the game at all. Why would I even bother then?

Is SE one of the dinosaurs of their industry now? Responsive, adaptive, innovative companies listen. They also lead. There's a whole new generation of MMOs on the near horizon and SE will have to launch the PS3 version against a lot of awesome new competition.

My comments here have offered much more depth than yours, which are frankly a bit repetitive compared to mine, so I don't know why you felt the need for your absurd and snippy comment at the end there. Then again this place does have that reputation, of not being able to handle the reality of this game. But it is never up to me whether you feel like you have something to say or not. And I certainly am not going to stop and think about "Meleena" of Cornelia whenever I feel like posting.

I dont agree in anything that you say on your post, Final Fantasies after FF4 and before FF12 where one of the same stuff.
FF12 is arguably the best FF game till now in terms of gameplay innovations and FF13 has one of the best battle systems in the series (FF12 is best till now).

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My comments here have offered much more depth than yours, which are frankly a bit repetitive compared to mine, so I don't know why you felt the need for your absurd and snippy comment at the end there. Then again this place does have that reputation, of not being able to handle the reality of this game. But it is never up to me whether you feel like you have something to say or not. And I certainly am not going to stop and think about "Meleena" of Cornelia whenever I feel like posting.

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I made that ending comment cause I didnt understand what did you complain for.
I dont really care if you think of me or not actually :P
Either learn to play or quit the game :)

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Originally Posted by Waaltar

FF used to reinvent the genre with every title, or maybe a better way to put it is that they set a new standard. FF12 and FF13 however prove that not all changes made are innovations. An innovation has to improve the game play experience and most people agreed that FF12 and FF13 were low points for the series rather than something better.

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Huh? FFXII was considered by a lot of people to be one of the best FF games in a long time, and some even believed its style of gameplay to be the natural evolution of the series. FFXIII was the abortion (the only good thing about it being combat and music in most people's eyes), not XII.

On topic, I think that counters off "Miss" would be a nice, but possibly overpowered. You see a ton more misses than you do evades, meaning with the proper TP a Pugilist would be unloading counter Weapon Skills at nearly all times.

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On topic, I think that counters off "Miss" would be a nice, but possibly overpowered. You see a ton more misses than you do evades, meaning with the proper TP a Pugilist would be unloading counter Weapon Skills at nearly all times.

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Its the best reason on why I don't agree for counters on miss, its a different mechanic.

if they allowed misses to be countered, it doesn't mean they couldn't balance it with recast timers
things can always be balanced around a change so that it's not broken or over powered
but i absolutely hate popping featherfoot and 30 secs later all i did was get missed by a few hits