If Liberator is for Dragoon, does that say something about the future of Dark Knight?

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Originally Posted by Mazi

Considering that DRG doesn't have a pet, SCH now does, BRDs use bows, and WAR is 100% a tank again. I don't think XI matters at all for jobs in this game. <.<

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you forgot about smn being a warlock clone... eh... DoT class. ;XD

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

you forgot about smn being a warlock clone... eh... DoT class. ;XD

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Another good point xP

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Originally Posted by Steady

in FFXI, Liberator, was a Mythic Weapon acquired by Dark Knights

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And in FFXI, the Thyrus was a weapon used for building the BLM relic weapon.

What the weapon was in XI has NOTHING to do with what it will be/could be in XIV.

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Originally Posted by Mazi

Considering that DRG doesn't have a pet, SCH now does, BRDs use bows, and WAR is 100% a tank again. I don't think XI matters at all for jobs in this game. <.<

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-Yet DRG in XIV looks more like DRG from XI than any other title.

-WARs were THE tank in XI and SE tried to keep it that way until the community forced their hand into allowing it to develop as a DPS post ToA - and that was way way waaaay after Lv.50 cap was removed. However, WARs in XI could tank, as could DRKs, just not many were skilled enough to make proper use of it.

-SCH having a pet is nothing more than SE being lazy and trying to release a second healer job to balance the game and providing a second job for the ARC class to progress into. They didn't think it through, and that is even more obvious when you consider one needs INT and the other needs MND yet both share the same class points.

-BRD XI screwed BRD into being everyone's b!tch. It and WHM were the most tedious jobs to play. It was popular to have in a group, and a chore to play. There was no way they were going to repeat that mistake, ever again.


Just like they will never give anyone utsesemi.

EDIT: SMN being a Warlok Clone: It still summons Ifrit, Garuda, Titan and will probably evolve to have more pets and the emphasis of its role be shifted towards pet-control.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Botanists already have scythes, not sickles. The developers would have to completely scrap all current scythe models as well as completely redo the animations.

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Botanist weapon doesnt even look like the weapon scythe that is used in popular cultures.

That's like saying MIN Pick Axe = to WAR weapon.

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Originally Posted by Royze

EDIT: SMN being a Warlok Clone: It still summons Ifrit, Garuda, Titan and will probably evolve to have more pets and the emphasis of its role be shifted towards pet-control.

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SMN existed before WoW did.

So just because it uses a move does not mean it is a clone.

No, this doesn't in anyway rule DRK out for future classes.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Gamemako, They could do it, this game is built supposed next generation right? I mean we all needed a high end pc to run it, the clipping issues and other stuff you talked about shouldn't even be a big issue.

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I'm not quite sure if you're joking or not, so I'll explain one way or the other. Clipping is everywhere in FFXIV. There is no collision detection on weapons; if your weapon clips through your body (like 2-handed staves clip through my character's leg when sheathing them or the Bravura clips through my character's back), it just keeps going. Most things are addressed by trying to make animations and features (e.g. hairstyles) that innately don't clip much. The problem is that a weapon as huge and awkwardly-shaped as that duct-tape scythe, it's virtually impossible to animate without the thing cutting through your character repeatedly. You could not ever cleave downward as it would clip into your chest and/or face. You would have to end every sideways attack with a return to neutral position because the rear blade would end up behind you and poke you in the back as soon as the haft became perpendicular with your body. Because of autoattacks, this would be especially difficult to implement. You'd basically be limited to twirling the thing around above your head like a confused cheerleader.

The kusarigama would be much easier to do in addition to being a more natural weapon. As a Ninja-job weapon, it would also be somewhat more historically-accurate and more feasible because it's a weapon used in part as a novelty tool (if your opponent hasn't seen it, he won't know how to counter it, and won't live through the fight to get it right next time). A ninja using a quick and unorthodox tool like that would both be feasible and feel pretty natural. Dark Knight using it, though, just seems awkward.

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

Have you ever played any other Final Fantasy game but FFXI? Dark Knight in FFXI is the exception, not the rule. In every other game, they use Great Swords.

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Greatswords were not really that common in the series in general until more recently, and most dark knight weapons were just swords generally. In 2, Leon came with an axe and sword and had highest skill in axes, though Dark Knight was a name and not a job. In 3, they could only wield one-handed swords that were ultimately katanas, but they still had no Darkside and had white magic. In FF4, one-handed sword and shield. In X-2, it was a sword generally, as there were no shields in all of Spira and different girls had different swords. FFXI, greatsword/scythe. In FFT, Gargarion wore one-handed sword and shield, but the remake super-class got access to specific swords which were two-handed only. That said, they could still wield knight swords and axes which were one-handed, so... yeah. Anyway, FFD was one-handed dark sword and shield as it was the tankiest job the warriors of darkness got. And take a guess at what the proficiency of 4HoL and BD dark knights are.

Dark Knight generally uses any manner of sword, from one-handed with or without shield to two-handed to katana specifically. Every now and then, can equip other things, like axes or scythes or spears, but if you want the classic equipment, sword is it, and sword-and-board is going to be the single most common thread. That doesn't necessarily mean that Dark Knight in ARR would have to wield that, but if you want any justification for a weapon via FF history, that's what you've got.

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

Leon in FF2 could use Longinus, so they have even had spears. But never scythes until XI.

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Remake shoehorns. :(

According to the patch notes Dark Knight is seafood in ff14! So yes Dark Knight is coming this patch.

"A king among Dark Bass, and lord of the waters of the Unholy Heir."

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Originally Posted by zsedc

Spears for fisher existed in this game?

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Yup, but they took it away. Less Stress, Please Look Forward To It™

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Ge...It:_Thanalan_V

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Originally Posted by Mephistopheles

DRK will use a greatsword. Scythes are boring, especially with the way fighting is in XIV.

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Disagree. I liked the Dark Knight's versatility in weapon choice. & they looked damn imposing carrying about those greatswords & scythes on their backs.

To everyone that thanks that Botanist using scythes means that Dark Knight can't:

CNJ's canes and THM's staves would like to have a word with you.

I don't think DRG is a replacement for dark knight. Granted, the DRG AF that we see now was labeled "evil armor" back when Yoshida showed concept art for job AF (this was before jobs were implemented), but I still think that job would get implemented. Ge wouldn't have talked about it and mentioned it in past interviews if he had no desire to implement DRK.

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

Example being smn

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SMN would not have worked in any other way without massive changes to Arcanist, which then would affect SCH as well.

I've never understood why people are so hung up on PUP. I mean, the mechanics weren't that great (PUP upon release was the loljob of loljobs because most of the job's performance was on the pet than on the master, DPS potential wasn't great seeing that you had to use an exploit to maximize damage), so I'm thinking the aesthetics might be key?

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Originally Posted by kidvideo

Disagree. I liked the Dark Knight's versatility in weapon choice. & they looked damn imposing carrying about those greatswords & scythes on their backs.

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The only time Scythe was a good weapon for DRK was back when multi-hit weapon skills were the best thing in the world. Spinning Slash was still better even then because it could close lv3 light. Fast-forwarding to Abyssea, the rule still applied when Torcleaver entered the game.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

SMN would not have worked in any other way without massive changes to Arcanist, which then would affect SCH as well.

I've never understood why people are so hung up on PUP. I mean, the mechanics weren't that great (PUP upon release was the loljob of loljobs because most of the job's performance was on the pet than on the master, DPS potential wasn't great seeing that you had to use an exploit to maximize damage), so I'm thinking the aesthetics might be key?

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i think the most interesting part on pupp was, that you could customize the pupp with the abillities you wanted to.

for pet class lovers it was quiet a nice job.. and in no mmorpg i could imagine you could individualize your battle pet like with a pupp in FFXI.

and that was the fun part. people who enjoy pet classes like to controll a npc who takes your orders.


smn in FFXIV is quiet flaw.. the pets attack automatically.. and they have less abillities, too... and more less abillities that are really usefull. no one uses ifrit eggi in Boss battles really.. 90% of the time garuda. they have no defense buffs like summons had in FFXI or in FFX for the party.
they just spam low standard attacks after an other. and the "astral flow" of summoner in FFXIV is just a big joke. a high re-use timer, and much much less damage than a flare attack of a black mage. whats that?

but well these "eggis" are no real FF summons... well.


and my opinion is that the summoner in AION was more active and more interesting. you had to command your pet most likely like in FFXI. so the summoner in FF14 could have been designed also slightly different...the pets had stun attacks etc. which all the smn in FFXIV has not.

the summoner in AION did the most part of damage through his pet... the abillizy commands of the pet had to be "casted" by the summoner (about 1-2s casting time) this made the summoner in AION quiet more active... like in FF11 where you also command your summon.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The only time Scythe was a good weapon for DRK was back when multi-hit weapon skills were the best thing in the world. Spinning Slash was still better even then because it could close lv3 light. Fast-forwarding to Abyssea, the rule still applied when Torcleaver entered the game.

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I miss those... "<Renkei>, <Can I have it?>"

Scythes came back a bit after Abyssea when they changed Dynamis and relics became more common. Apoc DRK>All for a while. Unfortunately Abyssea also caused SCs to fall out of favor and your average FFXI player these days has no idea what a Skillchain even is...>.>

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Greatswords were not really that common in the series in general until more recently, and most dark knight weapons were just swords generally. In 2, Leon came with an axe and sword and had highest skill in axes, though Dark Knight was a name and not a job. ... FFXI, greatsword/scythe. In FFT, Gargarion wore one-handed sword and shield, but the remake super-class got access to specific swords which were two-handed only. That said, they could still wield knight swords and axes which were one-handed,

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Actually FF2's Leon was a "Mystic Knight" and it was the first appearance of the job; "Dark Knight" was just easier to program because of character limitations, so he's right out. "Dark Knight" was a title, less a class, and given that FF2 was a classless game really, it's not worth referencing, everyone could be anything just depended how much time you spent grinding out skills(similar to the skill up system of XI).
Otherwise I agree with this analysis.

But Dark Knight was added in this patch!

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Dark Knight: :Seafood: A king among dark bass, and lord of the waters of the Unholy Heir.

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...038.1393027772

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Originally Posted by Nash774

But Dark Knight was added in this patch!

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Dark Knight: :Seafood: A king among dark bass, and lord of the waters of the Unholy Heir.

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Well played, sir. Well played indeed...

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

i think the most interesting part on pupp was, that you could customize the pupp with the abillities you wanted to.

for pet class lovers it was quiet a nice job.. and in no mmorpg i could imagine you could individualize your battle pet like with a pupp in FFXI.

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Except the consensus was that a PUP was not worth bringing to anything because you had almost 10 jobs that did what they did better. I forgave the unprecise controls over the automaton through maneuvers, but there were issues in the job's design that make me think it would not be worthwhile to repeat it.

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smn in FFXIV is quiet flaw.. the pets attack automatically.. and they have less abillities, too... and more less abillities that are really usefull. no one uses ifrit eggi in Boss battles really.. 90% of the time garuda. they have no defense buffs like summons had in FFXI or in FFX for the party.

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The only worthwhile flaw you've mentioned is Garuda having Contagion, which I agree was a mistake. The prudent thing to do is get rid of one of the current Arcanist abilities, replace it with Contagion and give Garuda-Egi and Emerald Carbuncle something else. Pet survivability is always an issue, but there's passive ways to change that without actually modifying the class or job involved.

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but well these "eggis" are no real FF summons... well.

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Well, no. If they were they'd last between 5 seconds and 2 minutes, be based on Amano Yoshitaka artwork, deal their damage and vanish like they do in the console games. It'd be unrealistic to expect summons to behave like that.

It means that SE took the DRG over the DRK for their Colibri merit party.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

are you guys even serious? im not talking about your western standards of fantasy.. im talking about japanese eastern standards (animes etc.)... where scythes are used very often as a weapon of the undead... oh its a tool, for harvesting the souls originally.. fine for you.. but what is your point? have you even played FFXI?!


have you even watched this video?
FINAL FANTSY XI - Online Dark Knight Scythe weapon skills [YOUTUBE]

the skeleton seems to wield this scythe for harvesting purposes, eh? ;XD

or as we are talking about famous animes lol* as the warrior of death.. she is wielding that scythe also for harvesting purposes.
Scythe as a weapon

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Umm... You are aware that most modern animes that use Death as a Black coweled skeleton wielding a scythe date back to only roughly 1946ish when the western idea of the personification of death became more popular. Prior to that death in Asian tradition is often depicted as a beraucrat or judge.

Long story short the scythe wielded by death is a farming tool and nothing more, meant to symbolize the harvesting of the soul and even the equality of that, "that all men are equal before death, it comes to rich man and poor, noble and common, good and evil. As the scythe makes no distinction between weed or wheat, so does death to the quality of men".

Death is also neither good nor evil, but merely the personification of an immutable law of all that lives. That eventually all things must die. Humans being a cowardly and superstitious lot, with the gift of reason and thought that allows us to ponder our mortality, conjured the "Specter of Death" to give a face to our most mortal and primal of fears. That one day death will come for us.

and even in your example of "Undead skeletons wielding scythes as weapons", this is more of a class thing than "the scythe is a symbol of evil". the undead in traditional culture are seen as mindless, base, and unthinking. They would wield the tools of the peasnetry as weapons, of which the nobles of the time thought they shared much in common (stupidity, thoughtlessness, being ruled by base animal desires....smell). to make it more succinct, Undead like your using as an example, are an allegory for civil unrest.

These days, it is as someone else said...sycthes are just a "Rule of Cool" weapon. they're actually wretched melee weapons, largely due to their weight and inward facing blade. It's sort of like Gears of War or Warhammer 40,000, while chainsaws as swords or attached to your gun as a bayonette look cool as hell, Chainsaws are actually terrible at cutting through soft tissue and become caught up and jammed fairly easily when doing that, and actually tend to throw the chain when the strike bone, they also tend to rip out of the users hand when going through soft tissue as the chain finds enough purchase to pull but not really to cut. this is of course ignoring, fuel source, fuel capacity, engine size, heat, and just general equal danger to the user as to the target. But damn if they ain't cool lookin'!

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

It was a scythe. Scythes are botanist tools in XIV, and there's very little will for reviving them as a weapon for Dark Knight. Being that scythes are polearms (insofar as weapon classifications go for improvised peasant weapons) where that subclass is used by Dragoon, it seems most appropriate to re-use that specific weapon as a Dragoon weapon.

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I understand you hate the idea of DRK using scythe, but it was a 50/50 split in that long post about greatsword vs. scythe for DRK. The community seems to be split right down the middle on this one.

My personal preference is a new class that uses a greatsword and then splits between DRK (dps) and Soldier (tank).

However, DRK as a MRD dps class would also be cool. MRD already uses a class of axes called Bill (EDIT: not Bhuj). If you look at them (well, the models in this game, not the real life ones), they're very reminiscent of scythes. To this end, I think it would be appropriate for DRK to use axes like a MRD, however any job specific weapons (relic and what not) would all be scythes. Or they could just add scythe as a MRD weapon, either way.

As far as it being a botanist tool, this is really a very minor concern. The "Scythe" doesn't actually mean anything whatsoever. The only thing on that piece of gear that holds real meaning is "Botanist secondary tool". They could easily add another set of scythes that were "Two handed Marauder arm" (or whatever) and it all holds up just fine. But just for the sake of argument you could just as easily make the distinction that botanist scythes are 1handed, while DRK scythes are 2handed. Or you could call the DRK arm a "War Scythe" if you want to get picky.

Actually when you actually harvest with it, the botanist scythe looks exactly like a proper scythe. You have to remember that a scythe being used as a weapon is not I AM THE ULTIMATE WEAPON MASTER stuff, it's I'M A FARMER WHO WAS FORCED TO FIGHT IN THE ARMY stuff.

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Originally Posted by Stormblossom

Actually when you actually harvest with it, the botanist scythe looks exactly like a proper scythe. You have to remember that a scythe being used as a weapon is not I AM THE ULTIMATE WEAPON MASTER stuff, it's I'M A FARMER WHO WAS FORCED TO FIGHT IN THE ARMY stuff.

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the only thing I would say to this is...it's less "FORCED TO FIGHT IN THE ARMY" and more... "I'M MAD AS HELL AND NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE" otherwise, the prefered weapon of Peasants "forced to fight in the army" were Pikes, Pitchforks, and Axes.

It might just mean that they could be doing away with scythes for them or making DRKs main tool be a different scythe they use for their ultimate weapon.

Personally I'd prefer the great sword version probably because my fav version of Dark Knight was in FFX-2. I could do without the over edgyness that their outfits had but I loved their abilities in the game. lol

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...darkknight.jpg

Found this image. Kinda hoping they go around this route with DRKs in this game. Having them either be like WARs where they are hard hitting Tanks or even if they are a bulky DPS job. Really hoping they stem from MRD. It could be similar to SCHs with ACN. Scholars can hold arcanist books that summoners can hold but their late game specific gear is decked out just for them to use. DRK could be able to use axes but their primary weapon will be something special to them

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/20...78-d3a9tak.jpg


http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...ark_Knight.jpg

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Originally Posted by Rassiel

Actually FF2's Leon was a "Mystic Knight"

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Leon as a dark knight was a title as he was the right-hand man of the Emperor. As I undestand, it was ダークナイト in that game -- a transliteration of English "Dark Knight" rather than the job name 暗黒騎士 given to the Cecil brand. FF3's dark knight was the magic swordsman / demon swordsman you're thinking of. The DS remake actually made them explicitly dark knights, including Darkside, but the Japanese version kept the original name. The NES one wasn't really developed at all -- it had white magic, no sword spells, looked like a dark knight, and wielded dark swords that were katanas also wielded by ninjas. It was definitely more a dark knight than a mystic knight, but it wasn't really either as we know them now. The Dark Knight job archetype grew out of FF4's Cecil, while the Mystic Knight job archetype grew out of FF5's Mystic Knight. It's all a bit fuzzy, especially when you consider the names: 魔法剣士 (FF5 mystic knight) versus 魔剣士 (FF3 job) versus different 暗黒騎士 (FF4 Cecil) vs different-but-same ダークナイト (Leon, Gafgarion). Shit, I don't know enough Japanese to play these games.

Regardless, Leon is specifically a dark knight and the FF3 name wasn't translated until the job was modified into the FF4 archetype.

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Originally Posted by Steady

in FFXI

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If Monk can perform a critical attack from the rear, does that say something about the future of Thief?

The answer may surprNo.