Let's talk about PvP

Eh, I give up. This community is about as optimistic as this game's future. As if having PvP would instantly ruin the PvE aspect. Because no multiplayer game has ever had both good PvE and PvP right? Logic and reason goes right out the window when the topic of PvP is brought up around the FF community.

Please don't get angry because we disagree with each other, Demacia.

PvP does ruin the PvE aspect -- If the PvP becomes a decent way to progress in any form guess what people will want to do mostly? It happens in every MMO that has a good PvP system.

I prefer no PvP but if it has to be implemented, a PvP system like Ballista; As in something completely optional and out of the way.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Because no multiplayer game has ever had both good PvE and PvP right?

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Let's take a look at FPSs real quick:

What do people spend the majority of their time on? The campaign(PvE) or the multiplayer pvp aspect?

If you say campaign you're lying to yourself.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Please don't get angry because we disagree with each other, Demacia.

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It makes no difference to me really. I have games with actual potential to look forward to. I was just hoping people would be a tad more reasonable when considering this game's future. But once more, I do have to consider that I'm not posting in the most reasonable of boards. People here will tell me that Market Wards are better than a UI based AH style market, and then people will tell me that PvP should be completely excluded from an MMO in 2011 "just because".

So you don't want pvp in the game becuase people will have something todo?, sounds like a great plan

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

PvP does ruin the PvE aspect -- If the PvP becomes a decent way to progress in any form guess what people will want to do mostly? It happens in every MMO that has a good PvP system.

I prefer no PvP but if it has to be implemented, a PvP system like Ballista; As in something completely optional and out of the way.



Let's take a look at FPSs real quick:

What do people spend the majority of their time on? The campaign(PvE) or the multiplayer pvp aspect?

If you say campaign you're lying to yourself.

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Right, what will people who play FPS spend the majority of their time on? A campaign, which no matter how long or how well made it is will be 100% cleared eventually, or multiplayer which has infinite replay value?

At least try to come up with a decent argument. We're talking about an MMO here. Even if PvP becomes a decent way to progress, SO WHAT? No fun allowed in XIV? If they can almost get it right in XI why not perfect it in XIV?

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Right, what will people who play FPS spend the majority of their time on? A campaign, which no matter how long or how well made it is will be 100% cleared eventually, or multiplayer which has infinite replay value?

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Actually, well made FPS has a campaign with replay value in order to get "100% completion". Most FPS these days have campaigns that are generally completely optional because their focus is on the Multiplayer. You're just adamant in believing people wouldn't choose PvP over PvE which you know deep down is a lie.

You're the one who hasn't come up with a "decent argument" as to why you believe PvP wouldn't overtake PvE like it does in most MMOs -- especially if PvP is lucrative.

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Originally Posted by Chezen

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...336#post209336

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All that states is that PvP will be part of end-game, as in after you're all ranked up. It's in the rank up content thread but he kind of went off a bit with the end-game part.

Also structured, consensual PvP is fine by me. It becomes awful when people can gank and grief all they want in PvE areas.

Yes I played Aion, funny thing is so did my current guild leader...one the same server...on the opposite side >.> Needless to say I wasn't really enjoying getting mercilessly slaughtered while trying to actually get to 50. Open world PvP needs to stay out of this game otherwise I'd actually consider leaving lol.

So again I'm all for PvP that is group oriented, optional and adds meaningfully to the game in some manner. They shouldn't add it just for the sake of adding it, give it a reason to be there.

PvP wouldn't really fit in to this game I think, but... given the fact that the PvE isn't exactly stellar, I don't care at this point.

PvP is perfectly fine and cool with me as long is it is consensual between all involved, or only takes place in special areas that aren't otherwise necessary to visit.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Actually, well made FPS has a campaign with replay value in order to get "100% completion". Most FPS these days have campaigns that are generally completely optional because their focus is on the Multiplayer. You're just adamant in believing people wouldn't choose PvP over PvE which you know deep down is a lie.

You're the one who hasn't come up with a "decent argument" as to why you believe PvP wouldn't overtake PvE like it does in most MMOs -- especially if PvP is lucrative.

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Great, but how often will you replay the same campaign before you get bored as opposed to multiplayer where you can go against real people instead of the AI and maps you've completely memorized? The difference is that the single-player experience in ANY game will be LIMITED while the multiplayer experience is NOT.

So you're afraid of people spending too much time having fun in PvP than grinding mobs in PvE? Fine, make it so you can't really level up from PvP and give cosmetic/material rewards. I'm adamant in believing that people should have the option to play against each other in a massively multiplayer game. PvE comes first, but PvP should always be available.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

It makes no difference to me really. I have games with actual potential to look forward to. I was just hoping people would be a tad more reasonable when considering this game's future. But once more, I do have to consider that I'm not posting in the most reasonable of boards. People here will tell me that Market Wards are better than a UI based AH style market, and then people will tell me that PvP should be completely excluded from an MMO in 2011 "just because".

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I must have not been clear in my reasoning. I'm at lunch now, so let me put more thought into it.

My opinion is not that PvP should be completely excluded. In my opinion, SE's strength as far as MMORPG's are concerned is PvE content, and I feel there is a very real possibility that the quality of XIV's PvE content will suffer if SE starts to worry about including PvP "just because" it's 2011, which is why I references FPS's. The attitude in that genre is that a FPS today must have competitive multiplayer. I think there is a good market for an FPS that has no multiplayer, but has a top-notch single-player campaign. We'll have to wait until Valve finally gets around to making Half-Life 3 to see if I'm right or not.

Similarly, though, I feel there's also a market for a solid PvE-only MMORPG. FFXIV could be that game, but if they decide, "Hey, we better do PvP! It is 2011 after all!" then they risk spreading themselves too thin, and the overall quality of the whole game would suffer. Better that they keep things simple and focus on their strength.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

I must have not been clear in my reasoning. I'm at lunch now, so let me put more thought into it.

My opinion is not that PvP should be completely excluded. In my opinion, SE's strength as far as MMORPG's are concerned is PvE content, and I feel there is a very real possibility that the quality of XIV's PvE content will suffer if SE starts to worry about including PvP "just because" it's 2011, which is why I references FPS's. The attitude in that genre is that a FPS today must have competitive multiplayer. I think there is a good market for an FPS that has no multiplayer, but has a top-notch single-player campaign. We'll have to wait until Valve finally gets around to making Half-Life 3 to see if I'm right or not.

Similarly, though, I feel there's also a market for a solid PvE-only MMORPG. FFXIV could be that game, but if they decide, "Hey, we better do PvP! It is 2011 after all!" then they risk spreading themselves too thin, and the overall quality of the whole game would suffer. Better that they keep things simple and focus on their strength.

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I sincerely doubt that having PvP will affect PvE in a negative matter. FFXI's strength is in its PvE and there's no doubt about that, but when my exp party breaks, I finish my rank missions, and I got the drop from some NM after spending 6 hours camping it, is it really that bad for me to want to get together with a few people and have some fun playing against each other? I am not suggesting that they make PvP as big as it is in WoW where it does affect the PvE side, but I would like it to be slightly better than FFXI's while being just significant enough to attract some people and not having it die out completely like it has on some of FFXI's servers.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Great, but how often will you replay the same campaign before you get bored as opposed to multiplayer where you can go against real people instead of the AI and maps you've completely memorized? The difference is that the single-player experience in ANY game will be LIMITED while the multiplayer experience is NOT.

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That's a very good point, but why play BioShock 2 or F.3.A.R.'s multiplayer, when you could play Team Fortress 2 or Counter Strike? Fantastic multiplayer FPS's with no single-player campaign. Remember Counter-Strike: Condition Zero? A single-player campaign for Counter Strike. And it sucked.

Likewise, you have Guild Wars, an online RPG with a heavy focus on PvP. And it's great. And I think Guild Wars 2 is going to suck, because they're trying to do too much at once.

This is a general philosophy I've been thinking of lately. I think a lot of things in this world are getting too complicated. Things need to be simplified. That's why I threw away my ridiculous 5 blade fusion razor and bought a good double-edged safety blade. Thanks to that I've got the best shave I've ever had.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

That's a very good point, but why play BioShock 2 or F.3.A.R.'s multiplayer, when you could play Team Fortress 2 or Counter Strike? Fantastic multiplayer FPS's with no single-player campaign. Remember Counter-Strike: Condition Zero? A single-player campaign for Counter Strike. And it sucked.

Likewise, you have Guild Wars, an online RPG with a heavy focus on PvP. And it's great. And I think Guild Wars 2 is going to suck, because they're trying to do too much at once.

This is a general philosophy I've been thinking of lately. I think a lot of things in this world are getting too complicated. Things need to be simplified. That's why I threw away my ridiculous 5 blade fusion razor and bought a good double-edged safety blade. Thanks to that I've got the best shave I've ever had.

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Well, here's the thing and once again I'll be using FFXI as an example: I like FFXI as it's both visually appealing and the combat system, to me, is enjoyable. I like the job system, the variety that subjobs provide, and the unique aspects and abilities of all the different jobs and weapons. I played GW and WoW, but found them both boring, ugly, and just dull in general. Even if GW and WoW had way better PvP than FFXI, I still prefer FFXI's PvP because I prefer FFXI over the other two in general. I wanted to fight against other players and formulate new builds and strategies based around FFXI's combat system and job system, so assuming FFXIV ever becomes a great game, I would like to be able to do the same thing.

And that is to slap people around on my Pugilist using completely different strategies than I would in PvE, since this time I'd have to actually outsmart/outplay a human being.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

As dull as I might sound, no direct PvP unless it's on a horde of rank 13 lalafell conjurers that suspicously teleport to Horizon en mass and do nothing, then teleport away.

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Thank God you've seen them too. I was starting to think I'd gone off my rocker.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Well, here's the thing and once again I'll be using FFXI as an example: I like FFXI as it's both visually appealing and the combat system, to me, is enjoyable. I like the job system, the variety that subjobs provide, and the unique aspects and abilities of all the different jobs and weapons. I played GW and WoW, but found them both boring, ugly, and just dull in general. Even if GW and WoW had way better PvP than FFXI, I still prefer FFXI's PvP because I prefer FFXI over the other two in general. I wanted to fight against other players and formulate new builds and strategies based around FFXI's combat system and job system, so assuming FFXIV ever becomes a great game, I would like to be able to do the same thing.

And that is to slap people around on my Pugilist using completely different strategies than I would in PvE, since this time I'd have to actually outsmart/outplay a human being.

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This makes a lot of sense.

"assuming FFXIV ever becomes a great game" ...that's a big "if". ^_^

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Originally Posted by Verecund

PvP wouldn't really fit in to this game I think, but... given the fact that the PvE isn't exactly stellar, I don't care at this point.

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Out of all the things said here, this most closely reflects my opinion. I feel like something drastic needs to happen if this game is hoping to succeed at all. I sincerely believe that if they clean up the battle system and make PvP rewarding to its own end, people might find that they like it more than they think. Some players are irrationally anti-PvP but I think they should at least be open to the thought and see how it all plays out.

As others have stated, the strength of FFXIV is PvE. If PvP were to be implemented it should be after SE "fixes" the core game. I see no reason to add something more to the "to-do" list right now seeing as how the base is far from perfect.

Also, when I read/hear PvP it just reminds me of "The World" (.hack//) and all of the crazy stories about PKs and PPKs, etc..crazy I tell ya'!

Yoshi already said that when he began to consider putting pvp into ffxiv that there would be no PK.

So we're looking at friendly challenges not open pvp.

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?foru...579&howmany=50

idk whats with FF players crying about pvp so much, like they're afraid to get killed in a videogame. PvP to me is a much more enjoyable timesink than killing mobs that have scripted actions and animations. gets quite dull after a while. and theres nothing like being up against another player, thats a real test of skill. Only problem I see with it is the way the armoury system works. Everyone will have every single skill thats good in pvp, so there wouldnt be much variety, albeit it would be an even playing field. Open world pvp would be too much, unless it was voluntary and had to flag overt for your faction. Otherwise instanced pvp events would do nicely. dont be so afraid pve kiddies, we can have both, just like every other modern mmo. If this game wants to stand a chance with all the competition it needs to have all its bases covered. people want variety, not be limited to a single playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Kaizlu

As others have stated, the strength of FFXIV is PvE. If PvP were to be implemented it should be after SE "fixes" the core game. I see no reason to add something more to the "to-do" list right now seeing as how the base is far from perfect.

Also, when I read/hear PvP it just reminds me of "The World" (.hack//) and all of the crazy stories about PKs and PPKs, etc..crazy I tell ya'!

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What is this PvE in FFXIV you speak of? Are you talking about Guildleves or Behest? Or how about the "roaming" Dodos and Goats that just stand in the fields like statues?

Seriously adding PvP to a game that has virtually no content is a no brainer. I'm surprised it hasn't already been implemented. Let the players be able make the game fun for themselves if the Devs can't do it. At least those of us who aren't entertained by doing the same leves over and over again could have had something to do while the Devs added the animation "light" and "full" parties.

I understand the PVE focus of FFXIV. However I don't see why they can't continue to have a great PVE and add a great PVP.

I'd love to see them add pvp. If they do it better be bigger than ballista. I was on one of the bigger servers in FFXI but still no one ever ballista'd because there was no reason too. So if they make pvp I hope they give plenty of reasons for people interested to compete. Make both PVP and PVE big and the game will be great.

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Originally Posted by FallenHero

idk whats with FF players crying about pvp so much, like they're afraid to get killed in a videogame.

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Well, to be fair, after FFXI's death penalty, some of the vets are hard wired to be afraid to get killed in a videogame. ;)

to me fighting against an actual human brain making human dicisions is very, very, very fun.
too bad there isnt any stealth in this game though. we need snk, invis and camoflauge.

bring on the PVP, im ready to have some fun dev. team!!

Open PvP = NO!

Instanced PvP such as Brenner/Ballista = Sure.

I'm an option B minded person.

Add pvp for people that like it. Just don't make it important, intrusive to PvE, or necessary to advance.

First I wanted to thank people like Rowyne in this thread for their unbiased arguments against PVP, even putting the community's wants over his/her own.

Secondly I wanted to post many things in the thread but I feel like Demacia said 99.9% of what I would have argued. But I will rant abit, so please forgive me:

When people hear PVP they get a gut bad reaction due to experiences having been ganked by 12 year olds and spat upon in games like Aion and WoW.

Do you honestly, honestly think that SE would ever do that to their players? Not in a million years. PVP just means. . .that: Player versus Player (PVP could take a billion different forms, from mini games of tetra master/chocobo
racing/ballista/battlegrounds/etc). It does not mean Open World Gank fest.

Demacia, I wouldn't get so steamed from arguing with the people whom are biased or don't understand this concept (not pointing fingers, just saying in general) simply because Yoshi announced that PVP is coming. There is no need to convince people to go along with it, it's coming. Period. I'm not sure why people are surprised given that Yoshi comes from DAOC, one of the greatest PVP games of all time.

Now my opinions on implementation of PVP in XIV:

-Add mini games such as chocobo races, tetra master, etc. what have you. Parlay with
other players (even though I hate parlay, it's boring lol).

-Add C*O*N*S*E*N*S*U*A*L combat PVP only. IE: Instanced battlegrounds, Arenas,
designated PVP zones, dueling requests with default setting to block duel requests,
etc. Tie in the grand companies somewhere in here too IMO, for lore, for factions or
whatnot if needed.

-This pvp must be accessible. Like Demacia said, Ballista in XI was awesome but it
burdened us with scheduled times we had to show up for, and in the end everyone
pretty much got tired of it and stopped going through the hassle. Make the BG's
que'able from anywhere ala WoW/WAR/etc. Also keep the PVP zone if added AWAY
from the common PVE zone paths, IE we don't wan't people stumbling in there on
accident.

-I don't know how I feel about the reward system. Too many rewards might make a
PVE'er feel obligated to PVP. However I would suggest rewards that help with PVP
ONLY. Never, ever, ever add any gear rewards to PVP that would
excel a character in PVE.

-Balancing. . .If SE decided to be not lazy, they could use the "mode" idea I heard
tossed around in this thread. IE every ability in game will have a seperate mode, a
seperate balance when used in PVP and PVE. Think along the lines of in PVE, sleep
lasts about 30 seconds, but in PVP, only 8 (just making up examples). Doing this
insures that no effects of PVP balance will ever scratch PVE.

If SE follows these guidelines, In my opinion anyone who would have a problem with PVP implemented in the above manner is simply biased and needs to GTFO. The only valid argument I've heard against PVP of this sort so far came from Eekiki who suggested that PVP would draw SE's focus away from PVE and in turn made the PVE sucky. In response, I would say that there is no way that SE is going to focus more on PVP than PVE, probably not even half the amount of time on PVP as PVE. This is SE we are talking about.

And why can't I just be happy to PVP in WoW or games that have great pvp, and leave FFXIV to be PVE only? To reiterate what Demacia said, because the Final Fantasy lore, traditional jobs, feel, story, graphics, beauty, style, etc. is me, my childhood, and what I feel nostalgic about. I also happen to be a hardcore PVPer. Should I be sued because I would love to be able to PVP in a game series I love? WoW is old, ugly as hell, and I have no nostalgia tied to it's lore or classes, so the PVP just isn't as fun as it would be in an FF game to me.

TLDR: C*O*N*S*E*N*S*U*A*L <3

I'd choose option B.
I'm all for having PVP just keep it away from open world dueling. I just dont feel open world dueling fits well in an FF title. Ballista was fun in FFXI and I'd have no qualms if it were to return. They could easily tie this in with Companies by having them be training scrims between the companies for bragging rights. It could have its own area that matchs run all day with small windows of rest between matchs or something like that. I'd really like to see some actually objectives then straight killing though. Such as CTF holding, a fort or area or multiplies, vips, or something along those lines that perpare players for PvE. As for rewards gil and exp is fine I believe, nothing very substancial though. I'd also want the return of setting up your own PVP for you and your ls. A ranking board would be great too.

id love an open PVP server, having just one wouldnt be bad. id then have two characters for sure because i also like PVE.

either way i sincerely hope PVP isnt going to be a disney love thy neighbor daisy fest. a decent portion of this games community seem to have a very "lets hold hands and sing" mentality when it comes to video games.
i dont want a hate-mongering co** size comparison game either, but i by all means enjoy a good dose of healthy competition and challenge minded gamers as much as i enjoy an easy going light party.

open PvP might be fun if it were limited to snow balls and water guns.

just make Colosseum and tournament and just good(but not best) weapon ra/ex as reward one time per reset 'w'b and who already have can't join again until throw old one away and when not tournament time just free pvp w/o reward -3-b

<33333333333 PVP

Somewhere between A and B.

i dont like pvp at all. but i understand a competitive mmo should have it.

arena or sport pvp would be ok. so i guess thats under (b)

but having some dork just walk up to me challenge me to a duel. no thanks!!

i dont want to be bothered or harassed while im trying to enjoy myself.

besides i feel it takes away from the FF feel. like someone posted earlier "all working together for a common goal"

it should be non-queue to enter PVP zones, dual. queue's suck cuz its random.

should be like ffxi where you have to go to X area and talk to Y npc to register for the next battle that starts at at a set time.
and there should be different types of battles.

and there should be an actual rewards system. rare/ex only so the RMT dont screw up or games by sitting there or camping you as a party.

I would like to see arena or a duel system... open world PvP I don't think that would fit in the game but just my opinion.

A by far but it'll never happen sadly.

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Originally Posted by Cloak

I would like to see arena or a duel system... open world PvP I don't think that would fit in the game but just my opinion.

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Pretty much this. Ballista was the most fun I ever had in FFXI. Adding pvp to FFXIV would have a lot of people coming back since it's actually something "fun" to do rather than endlessly grind your classes.

Yoshi already said he won't add some open world pvp