Battle Reform: Auto-Attack (06/30/2011)

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Bow in one hand, pimp slap in the other ^^

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.... LMAO!

Exactly, considering you stack 999 arrows in one slot >_>.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

This worries me...it sounds like it will be introduced in 1.18, but it's not even half-way done, which means it will work terribly until SE gets around to beginning to fix it properly in 1.19.

Troubling.

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I seem to remember SE stated that because of the size and amount of changes needed for the battle system it was always going to be split up into 2 patches. How far apart 1.18 and 1.19 will be though is the question and how will only having half of the battle system function in the upcoming Dungeons alongside 1.18?

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Originally Posted by Sorel

1.18 includes the following:

1. Removal of the Stamina Bar and implementation of Auto-Attack. (Letter #11)
2. Adjustments to Guildleves. (Letter #12)
3. Implementation of Settlements as quest hubs. (Letter #9)
4. Implementation of two instanced dungeons. (Letter #11)

1.19 includes the following:

1. Auto-Attack fine-tuning and animation diversification. (Letter #11)
2. Implementation of Beastmen Settlements. (Letter #9)
3. Adjustment to recipes. (Letter #12)
4. Implementation of the Materia Crafting System (Letter #12)

Did I miss anything?

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Introduction of cure and curaga (interview). Class adjustments/restrictions for more definitive roles?

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

I seem to remember SE stated that because of the size and amount of changes needed for the battle system it was always going to be split up into 2 patches. How far apart 1.18 and 1.19 will be though is the question and how will only having half of the battle system function in the upcoming Dungeons alongside 1.18?

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Yoshia did say in 4gamer (I believe) that time between updates will be shorter (though it's been quite a while since we've had a significant one).

In all I'm pleased with the direction.

The question is: Will the classes be adjusted in 1.18 already?

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

The question is: Will the classes be adjusted in 1.18 already?

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They will have to be in order for Auto Attack to even work won't they? Maybe not fully adjusted but certainly some adjustments have to made in 1.18.

Kinda hoping(just a little) that ARC's auto attack will have a pansy scream scream slap slap get away from meeee animation.

Though with how SE is it'll probably be a single punch from PUGs animation stock.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

1.18 includes the following:

1. Removal of the Stamina Bar and implementation of Auto-Attack. (Letter #11)
2. Adjustments to Guildleves. (Letter #12)
3. Implementation of Settlements as quest hubs. (Letter #9)
4. Implementation of two instanced dungeons. (Letter #11)

1.19 includes the following:

1. Auto-Attack fine-tuning and animation diversification. (Letter #11)
2. Implementation of Beastmen Settlements. (Letter #9)
3. Adjustment to recipes. (Letter #12)
4. Implementation of the Materia Crafting System (Letter #12)

Did I miss anything?

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According to the 4gamer interview, the removal of physical levels will also come in 1.19. Which means we will have fewer attribute points but each point will make a bigger difference. It's probably a big reason why the new algorithm wont come til 1.19. I would assume the new algorithms are balanced with the new stats in mind.

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They will have to be in order for Auto Attack to even work won't they? Maybe not fully adjusted but certainly some adjustments have to made in 1.18.

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No, what I mean is: was there any mention that abilities will be re-allocated and adjusted between classes already in 1.18?

Short version of rant from other thread:

ARC punch is stupid.

Remove ammunition, convert arrows to quivers (bottomless, allows for level-appropriate or situational status ammo), make Light Shot auto attack.

Likewise, leave mage ranged auto attack.

It's not game breaking, it's just sensible. Mages aren't going to be in melee range, neither are ARCs. Don't disadvantage classes by giving them auto attacks they'll never use.

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Originally Posted by tyrion

According to the 4gamer interview, the removal of physical levels will also come in 1.19. Which means we will have fewer attribute points but each point will make a bigger difference. It's probably a big reason why the new algorithm wont come til 1.19. I would assume the new algorithms are balanced with the new stats in mind.

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I think you are probably right on that one. Can't have new algorithms based on old stats, and expect the new algorithms to behave properly.

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Originally Posted by Rinsui

No, what I mean is: was there any mention that abilities will be re-allocated and adjusted between classes already in 1.18?

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Ahh I see, I'm not sure I thought there would be but with Job system being a bit away yet maybe they will wait until nearer then. They did say that a lot of skills would be made to be unlocked through quests and guild marks and as such as offering full refunds on guild marks earned so you can pick your skills again.

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Originally Posted by Galadrios

Happy to see things are moving and all this info is being released but I am not sure I like the way they are doing it. Why split the auto attack implementation in 2 patches?

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They stated quite clearly the scope of the battle overhaul is very large and can't be done in one go and will take a long time so they're trying to get as much as as quickly as possible -- especially given how this community likes to complain and moan about them not patching quickly.

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Originally Posted by Amas

It's not game breaking, it's just sensible. Mages aren't going to be in melee range, neither are ARCs. Don't disadvantage classes by giving them auto attacks they'll never use.

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I respectfully disagree with that generalization.

If I am playing solo as a Disciple of Magic, I will be in melee range because the enemy will close in.

Hey you know what's funny? I was watching my sister play Eternal Sonata and there's an archer character, by the name of Viola -- know what her up and close and personal attack is? I'll give you one hint and it's what SE mentioned Archer's auto attack will be.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Hey you know what's funny? I was watching my sister play Eternal Sonata and there's an archer character, by the name of Viola -- know what her up and close and personal attack is? I'll give you one hint and it's what SE mentioned Archer's auto attack will be.

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I think we need a video of that.;)

Honestly do not care about what an Archer uses to auto-attack. We're in beta (unofficially), this stuff is all in flux anyway.

Wouldn't be surprised if we got the patch next week sometime considering how quickly theyre turning out notes. The only other major thing i can think of they havent touched on thats comingin 1.18 are the hubs, which could be tomorrow's update.

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Originally Posted by viion

This is sad...

Going to get 2 dungeons, which I'll be finished and bored with in 1 night (expectations)
Auto Atk
Reduced Guildleve system, preventing any motivation to rank up

not looking good anymore haha.

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did you forget that dungeon have time limit and the two dungeon have diff path to pick from and each one give you diff Rewards? and that amount of time you get it done is the drop rate in a way? Also you can't do the dungeon over and over again there a limit on that also

did you forget quest hubs? which come out in 1.18 that you can party with others and do quest? could be a garrsion type event like ffxi where you fight waves of mobs or even conquest in Wings of the godness.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Well here it is, not as much info as I would have liked, I guess we will have to wait for the Class Reform post to see the full adjustments. I like this new daily news thing they have going on, does this mean 1.18 is nearing release????

Also is Archer attacking with bare fists? Is this while they hold the bow in one hand, maybe they could have a Pimp Slap auto attack ^^

On a serious note though how do you think recast timers will be handled for the unlocked Basic Attacks. So like a PUG with Light Strike / Flurry / Pummel? Surely they will all be on the same timer like Raging Strike 1 and 2 otherwise if they had their own 5 second timer you could essentially just keep spamming attacks very quickly.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...f41187877f842a

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Speculation below.
The way I'm reading the Lodestone is that by using abilities, we are delaying our auto-attack (probably based on the stamina it used to take.)

I'm hoping mages will be able to sling spells back to back because of this.

But it feels like SE would sooner obscure the Stamina bar from the interface and we're secretly all bound to it (I.e. if we use Shadowbind, we delay our auto-fist by one long stamina bar's worth of time, maybe even delaying the execution of all abilities, where using Cure may slightly delay our next auto-attack/next action).

Will Close Shot and Shadowbind finally find some use in (solo) battle?

Will TP gain be reduced for long-ranged attacks from Archers, Conjurers and Thaumaturges?

How long will the recast timer be for Light Shot, Spirit Dart and Phantom Dart be?

So many questions left unanswered..

Edit: A YouTube video would have been nice, Square Enix!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Full Thrust, Flurry and all the other basic attacks are gonna be just normal skills and not switchable AA, right?
That sucks so badly...

Basically talking about the battle system, 1.18 will just have the AA thrown in and a couple of skills revisited... so we are gonna have a lot of new content but just a "draft" of the battle system... doesn't it go against any logic? o.O

EDIT: also i would point out that after you get the different types of normal attacks you NEVER use the "Light" one anymore (at least for the class i tryied).
So if they're just normal skills with short recast time well say goodbye to AA, you're still gonna use those skills a lot; otherwise if they have a long cool down the majority of them are gonna be useless... they're meant to be an alternative to the "Light" attack, so if it becomes automated all of them should do the same.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

1.18 includes the following:

1. Removal of the Stamina Bar and implementation of Auto-Attack. (Letter #11)
2. Adjustments to Guildleves. (Letter #12)
3. Implementation of Settlements as quest hubs. (Letter #9)
4. Implementation of two instanced dungeons. (Letter #11)

1.19 includes the following:

1. Auto-Attack fine-tuning and animation diversification. (Letter #11)
2. Implementation of Beastmen Settlements. (Letter #9)
3. Adjustment to recipes. (Letter #12)
4. Implementation of the Materia Crafting System (Letter #12)

Did I miss anything?

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Abolishment of the fatigue system will happen in either 1.18 or 1.19 I believe.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I respectfully disagree with that generalization.

If I am playing solo as a Disciple of Magic, I will be in melee range because the enemy will close in.

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Right.

So if you remove the Multiplayer aspect from MMORPG, you need to have a melee attack. Why couldn't your ranged Phantom Dart also function from melee range?

Just saying, mages should have an auto attack that functions at range, since in group activities (you know, massively MULTIPLAYER online roleplaying game) they will be at range and should be able to attack mobs between spells.

Don't design an MMO around solo play. Design an MMO to permit it.

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Originally Posted by Len

Will Close Shot and Shadowbind finally find some use in (solo) battle?

Will TP gain be reduced for long-ranged attacks from Archers, Conjurers and Thaumaturges?

How long will the recast timer be for Light Shot, Spirit Dart and Phantom Dart be?

So many questions left unanswered..

Edit: A YouTube video would have been nice, Square Enix!

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, Close Shot and Shadowbind will still be about as useful as they are currently.

It would waste so much time and be so frustrating to have to Close Shot -> run away -> 1 RA -> Close Shot -> 1 RA -> Shadowbind -> run away -> repeat. The sheer loss in killing power thanks to wasted time would more than offset the utility of binding to move to arrow range.

I'm fine with their schedule for adjusting stuff etc.

The only thing that makes me worry is the fact that they decided to keep battle algorithms as they are right now for 1.18 and start adjusting them with 1.19

This could very well cause a lot of annoying stuff while fighting in 1.18. May it be dungeons or just any kind of PT based stuff you do. What if hate algorithms are completely screwed and tanking is pretty much impossible without the adjustments? I'm willing to wait for the final result, but that they didn't adjust the battle algorithms together with implementing Auto Attack makes me worry a bit :/

Too lazy to check where this was from, but I thought the Hate algorythm / meter was to be introduced in 1.18.

Wow.. You all need to read more closely..

They have announced so many things that are being released in 1.18 I don't have time to list them but its well over four..
Go back and read what they said, and actually read it this time don't just skim through and pick out what you want to see.

As far as Stat Adjustments are concerned, they won't be able to do them until they see AA in action on a beta test level..

and as for Archer AA I dont get the whole fist thing.. they should make Archers stab with an Arrow and calculate base damage off the type of arrow equipped.. maybe people will stop using rank 1 arrows..

lots of fundamental changes

Man, not giving ARC auto attack (no one is going to auto attack with punch any more than they throw stones now) is the worst decision they've made with this patch. I'm not looking forward to it at all.

Giving light shot a recast timer instead is going to be painful in a game where recast timers almost never display properly. I'm currently chopping trees and my abilities are so out of sync I can hit the 30 second recast quick ability and have it show up to be used again immediately. To fix that I have to log out completely, shut the game down and log back in. Even then it won't be long (usually one or two region changes) before they're a few seconds out again. There's going to be so much "You must wait longer to perform that action" spam on my screen because no way do I want to shut the game down every other hour.

They should just delay 1.18 until they finish at least all the battle part. because it gonna be a mess with half-finished work....

And soo.. the Crying/whining Continues.. oh they never let me down...

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Originally Posted by Amas

Likewise, leave mage ranged auto attack.

It's not game breaking, it's just sensible. Mages aren't going to be in melee range, neither are ARCs. Don't disadvantage classes by giving them auto attacks they'll never use.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I respectfully disagree with that generalization.

If I am playing solo as a Disciple of Magic, I will be in melee range because the enemy will close in.

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Originally Posted by Amas

Right.

So if you remove the Multiplayer aspect from MMORPG, you need to have a melee attack. Why couldn't your ranged Phantom Dart also function from melee range?

Just saying, mages should have an auto attack that functions at range, since in group activities (you know, massively MULTIPLAYER online roleplaying game) they will be at range and should be able to attack mobs between spells.

Don't design an MMO around solo play. Design an MMO to permit it.

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I was just stating that your first statement was an incorrect generalization. As such it would be an inadequately faulty basis to argue on, whether you are for or against mages having Auto-Attack.

I'm personally indifferent on the subject. Auto-Attack isn't what is going to win my battles, or cause me to lose battles. It will be the judgement, timing, and appropriate use of abilities by me and the rest of my party.

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Originally Posted by Alise

They should just delay 1.18 until they finish at least all the battle part. because it gonna be a mess with half-finished work....

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This would only be wise if it would cause people to not complain -- however the fact people complain about someone punching rather than using a dagger or arrow for an auto attack you can guarantee a delay for finished work would cause people to complain.

What about... whining about this when we actually have tried the system?
It's pretty much like cheese now. Smells bad but if you don't have a taste you'll never know.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

And soo.. the Crying/whining Continues.. oh they never let me down...

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Too damn right it will. Would you rather everyone just quit so you can be the only one playing? Crying/whining is what forced SE to redevelop the game. Surprised you're still playing if you were happy with the game in September. Oh wait, no, you were probably crying/whining yourself. Hypocrite.

At the end of the day when SE make one of your classes unplayable or so big a pain in the ass to play that you don't want to play it any more we have every right to complain. I'll be whining even harder if they give WHM job to one of the mage classes without giving it another job. I only have three battle classes at 50 and SE are potentially making two of them unplayable for me.

There's absolutely no reason why ARC should not have auto attack with its main weapon. SE could have added a toggle for all classes so if you want to sit and spam 1 and fight with the recast timer display issue you can turn it off. But no, they try a one fits all approach and piss off half the player base. The ones whining about the whiners or who think it's a good idea either don't play ARC or their prayers from constant whines about ARC being over-powered have been answered. Making a class a pain in the ass to play isn't a fix.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

What about... whining about this when we actually have tried the system?
It's pretty much like cheese now. Smells bad but if you don't have a taste you'll never know.

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I've been playing long enough to know how tapping the 1 key works and how recast timers work. You don't need to experience it to know how light shot with a recast is going to work.

Sounds interesting, but I'll have to actually try it out first before I can really analyze anything. There's still a lot of stuff we don't know.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I've been playing long enough to know how tapping the 1 key works and how recast timers work. You don't need to experience it to know how light shot with a recast is going to work.

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Who knows, it may be entertaining.
And anyway, they're working on it. We (not me) wanted Auto-attack, and you get Auto-attack with its consequences. It's gonna be a new thing and no, you've never experienced it, so you can't say it sucks or it's fabulous.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Too damn right it will. Would you rather everyone just quit so you can be the only one playing? Crying/whining is what forced SE to redevelop the game. Surprised you're still playing if you were happy with the game in September. Oh wait, no, you were probably crying/whining yourself. Hypocrite.

At the end of the day when SE make one of your classes unplayable or so big a pain in the ass to play that you don't want to play it any more we have every right to complain. I'll be whining even harder if they give WHM job to one of the mage classes without giving it another job. I only have three battle classes at 50 and SE are potentially making two of them unplayable for me.

There's absolutely no reason why ARC should not have auto attack with its main weapon. SE could have added a toggle for all classes so if you want to sit and spam 1 and fight with the recast timer display issue you can turn it off. But no, they try a one fits all approach and piss off half the player base. The ones whining about the whiners or who think it's a good idea either don't play ARC or their prayers from constant whines about ARC being over-powered have been answered. Making a class a pain in the ass to play isn't a fix.




I've been playing long enough to know how tapping the 1 key works and how recast timers work. You don't need to experience it to know how light shot with a recast is going to work.

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To be quite honest Yes I would rather have the people who cry/whine to quit and the people who have ideas/ Constructive Criticism to stay, all crying does really to be honest ( and in my opinion) is cause SE to implement something that could break the game, because of someone else whining that "this" isn't put into the game. Of course SE knows that and won't give into the people who cry for their lollypop....

So Yes I would rather:

-Keep Ideas/ Criticism
-Rid the Whiners

( My opinion)

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Who knows, it may be entertaining.
And anyway, they're working on it. We (not me) wanted Auto-attack, and you get Auto-attack with its consequences. It's gonna be a new thing and no, you've never experienced it, so you can't say it sucks or it's fabulous.

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I'm not getting auto attack, ARC is my main class and attacking with bare fists is hardly going to be the norm. You'll do it as often as you attack with rocks right now. All they're doing is adding a recast timer to Light Shot to compensate for the lack of stamina cost.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

To be quite honest Yes I would rather have the people who cry/whine to quit and the people who have ideas/ Constructive Criticism to stay, all crying does really to be honest ( and in my opinion) is cause SE to implement something that could break the game, because of someone else whining that "this" isn't put into the game. Of course SE knows that and won't give into the people who cry for their lollypop....

So Yes I would rather:

-Keep Ideas/ Criticism
-Rid the Whiners

( My opinion)

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If you want to be the only person playing then may I suggest you play Final Fantasy XIII instead or one of the other great single player titles? Because you appear to be the only person who has never whined about anything in this game.

Oh and you can't have criticism without whining. It's like having cookies without biscuits. It's the same damn thing.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I'm not getting auto attack, ARC is my main class and attacking with bare fists is hardly going to be the norm. You'll do it as often as you attack with rocks right now. All they're doing is adding a recast timer to Light Shot to compensate for the lack of stamina cost.



If you want to be the only person playing then may I suggest you play Final Fantasy XIII instead or one of the other great single player titles? Because you appear to be the only person who has never whined about anything in this game.

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I have Ideas/Criticisms Theirs a major difference in the two. and did I say I never had a problem with the game? I do actually and I could get into length detail as to what I do not like about it. But should I whine about it and beg for the lollypop from SE?

All I can do for SE is Give my ideas/thoughts about certain areas I do not like and let them do their f***ing job, not this " SE wtf are you doing don't do this, do this" and not to mention "everyone" has different ideas and views about a particular area. and if SE does everything because people "cry for their Lollypop fix" and if SE "actually" gave into all the stuff the people whine about ( in which they all have different outlooks of the area) Do you know how unbalance the game would be? It would be pretty messed up in fact probably "worse" than FFXIV PC launch, ( and yes in my opinion FFXIV Launched badly) but SE fixed things up on their own accord, and because of the "decline" of the game, not because of the whiners. They take the ideas that are good/great, not because people whine about them.

They know what shape the game is.. heck everyone does.. but Whining will not make this game any better than what it is now. Ideas/Criticism will

/end rant not replying