As it's Valentione's Day, I ask do we even need in-game marriage; period!

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Originally Posted by TohruHonda

No no no no no no. Keep real life BS out of our fantasy world, and go play second life.

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Marriages occur in works of fantasy all the time. I just... Wat???

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Originally Posted by Felis

You know that the article discriminate roleplayers in some way (because it ignore them total as if they don't exist in the game)

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I'm sorry that you've come to this conclusion. I made an effort to include reasons why people might want marriage in game that I could with article length etc, looking at the growing culture of virtual relationships in Japan as an example. I understand that I've not explicitly mentioned people wanting to do it as roleplay, but neither do I say that role-playing is not a good reason to include it. So I apologise if this omission has offended.

Besides, the argument I put forward isn't the outright scrapping of in-game marriage. It's that if we are going to have it then it should be for all, or it should at least contribute to the gameplay experience.

THe majority of female characters are played by heterosexual guys. The majority of male characters are also played by heterosexual guys.
That presents a problem as far as weddings goes.

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Originally Posted by Radkat

THe majority of female characters are played by heterosexual guys. The majority of male characters are also played by heterosexual guys.
That presents a problem as far as weddings goes.

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They wouldn't have to marry each other though?

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

They wouldn't have to marry each other though?

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THen who do they marry?
The fact is, the vast majority of players are heterosexual guys. I don't see the point of wasting time and resources in implementing ingame marriage.

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Originally Posted by Radkat

THen who do they marry?
The fact is, the vast majority of players are heterosexual guys. I don't see the point of wasting time and resources in implementing ingame marriage.

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No one? It would be optional lol..

And a waste of time and resources really? This is just ludacris, implementing it in an MMORPG in no way would hurt the straight men of the game. And news flash WOMEN do exist here and they use both genders too. You're just grasping.

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Yes but you forget not everyone in the world is for gay marriage and just like ppl can't force god on others you can't force your ways on others i myself have no prob at all with gay marriage or equality but there are ppl who don't feel the same way are they wrong? what if some ppl don't like gay marriage is it fair to them to add it in this game? this sort of thing works both ways

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Everyone is entitled to their religious or personal views. The people who are anti gay marriage have every right to leave the game if gay marriage is implemented in ff14 ARR. If SE chooses a stance that is more "traditional" then I can take my gaming money else where. It's not going to kill the game if I leave over that issue, all the gays could leave ff14 and the game would still be ok. I am just voting with my wallet since I don't want to support a game company that is not inclusive to my life style. I can't get married in RL because of religious laws.It would be nice if I could at least pretend in a fantasy world.

And yes, I think it is wrong to carry bigoted opinions. If I thought subjugating other races was just fine, I would be looked down upon for that view.

If they have time to create a marriage system which most people won't use anyway, they might as well use the resources to make more proper game content.

Or even make more puff, puff!

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Originally Posted by Radkat

If they have time to create a marriage system which most people won't use anyway, they might as well use the resources to make more proper game content.

Or even make more puff, puff!

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You pique my curiosity with how you feel. I mean no offense (you 're roe how could I? I love Roes!)but why do you think they can't handle both things? I don't expect it anytime soon believe me. I want you and others to have all the content you can and want. But adding in side dishes to the already approaching feast, is it really so harmful to our community as a whole? Again I want content to be the main focus as you do.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Trion implemented marriage without gender restrictions, and it was never even a question.

So again: It's only an issue, because Squeenix decided to pretend it was.

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I'm not saying that they even treat it as an issue. As far as we're aware, Yoshi-P and the other FFXIV staff very well may not mind adding it in; however, they are a smaller portion of a larger company. I'm sure that the tiny FFXIV team don't want to be the ones leading the charge against the very high upper management as well as board members in molding Square-Enix's stance on where they fall in the political debate of Same-sex marriage.

For one, in the corporate world, things of this nature is a straight-up slippery slope. It's an issue that most companies try to stay out of the media about whether it's good or bad for their media presence. If there just so happened to be a public announcement by the company on their stance as it rides on the coat-tails of the in-game marriage system if they happen to implement it in a traditional sense, then they have to consider their shareholders and what happens on that end too. Keep in mind that SE, as a company, has been in the red for a while now and they're finally seeing revenue come back in with this game. They don't want to mess that up in the slightest.

Media presence has been back and forth so far, from what I've read, but I've seen several Destructoid articles letting their subscribers know what's new and going on in the game. It would be naive of us to think that coverage of same-sex in-game marriage wouldn't be covered too, which would lead to a number of different ways it could go for the company. It's almost easier for Yoshi-P and his team to just keep doing their work on the game and avoid any sort of stances for the sake of not jeopardizing anything financially.

So in a sense, it's a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If another company was firm enough on their stance to just toss it out there, then that's awesome, but not every company's situation is the same.

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Originally Posted by Licus

Everyone is entitled to their religious or personal views. The people who are anti gay marriage have every right to leave the game if gay marriage is implemented in ff14 ARR. If SE chooses a stance that is more "traditional" then I can take my gaming money else where. It's not going to kill the game if I leave over that issue, all the gays could leave ff14 and the game would still be ok. I am just voting with my wallet since I don't want to support a game company that is not inclusive to my life style. I can't get married in RL because of religious laws.It would be nice if I could at least pretend in a fantasy world.

And yes, I think it is wrong to carry bigoted opinions. If I thought subjugating other races was just fine, I would be looked down upon for that view.

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Move to CA we let all get married here:P

I'd be happy to have a fluff system in place that doesn't detract from the game experience itself and rather adds something neat and fun to the world that gives it a little bit of life. It's not like marriage, or similar concepts like romance in general, are foreign to fantasy, additionally; it's something RPers might have fun using between their characters and making the experience more immersive.

Of course, I only think it appropriate Square Enix allows anyone and everyone equal access to the marriage system when it's implemented, rather than imposing silly rules like... only opposite sex characters may use it... for a lot of reasons. Granted, on one hand, there are players who would use it simply for fun and both might play male characters (disregarding any real life anything) and that doesn't hurt, or tear anything for anyone a part game-wise. On the other hand, there might be RPers who have (fe)male characters that are romantically interested in a different (fe)male character, and allowing them to use the marriage system hurts no one (although, disallowing use does put a damper on those RPers, granted Eorzea doesn't seem to have anti-gay sentiments running rampant amongst its people, whereas imposing a sentiment into that world that isn't actually there would be dragging real life crap into a fantasy world).

On a bigger note, though, there might be players who are gay, or bi, or lesbian and so forth who have a same-gender partner IRL and play with them actively in the game. Why shouldn't they be allowed to have their characters marry if their characters are the same sex? Sure, one could recreate a whole new character and lose all progress to do so, but that's a little extreme and imposes a really stupid restriction on players (not all players are heterosexual, you know). Not like straight players would care, granted they get everything handed to them on a golden platter in everything else regarding things like this (and pitch some incredible tantrums when other people are given something they already have).

Allowing it hurts absolutely no one, allowing it without any silly restrictions hurts absolutely no one. Disallowing it completely puts a damper on world depth and fun RP fluff, only allowing F/M pairings to use it impose unnecessary restrictions that serve no purpose than to appease people who find M/M pairings or F/F pairings icky. (Seriously, it's not like anyone would be forcing heterosexual players who wanted to use the feature to have a same sex character thing). To those who find M/M or F/F pairings icky, grow up and act like an adult.

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Move to CA we let all get married here:P

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Marriage galore! See ya in court after the 3rd year. Oh wait, you get a discount!

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Originally Posted by Felis

You know that the article discriminate roleplayers in some way (because it ignore them total as if they don't exist in the game)

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Originally Posted by Destrolyn

I'm sorry that you've come to this conclusion. I made an effort to include *snip*.

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I totally missed that you were the author! :o I also failed to read your bio. Seeing that you are from the UK gives the article a different impact for me, being used to seeing everything from the US point of view. Being a fan of Alan Turing, I am always happy to be reminded how much things have changed since then. I'll be raising a toast to my across-the-pond peeps on 29.March :D

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Move to CA we let all get married here:P

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West Coast (US) represent!

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Allowing it hurts absolutely no one, allowing it without any silly restrictions hurts absolutely no one. Disallowing it completely puts a damper on world depth and fun RP fluff, only allowing F/M pairings to use it impose unnecessary restrictions that serve no purpose than to appease people who find M/M pairings or F/F pairings icky.

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Agreed.
What I find ridiculous about this argument is that the forum is full of threads complaining that the game needs more customization options. But this is the one OPTION people don't want?
That being said, I understand SE/Yoshi may have business decisions restricting/guiding them. I have no idea what pressures/concerns are on them.
What I don't understand is the players arguing about whether they want the option or not.

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Originally Posted by Lumiin

Seeing how people here over reacted about a freaking event quest I wouldn't implement it either.

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That quest (assuming you're referring to the Valentiones quest) stirred certain negative feelings in parts of the LGBT community. Why on earth would that be a reason to implement marriage with gender restrictions? If anything, it should tell Squeenix that they should try not to leave out segments of their playerbase.

"The current Valentine’s Day event, named Valentione’s Day in Eorzea, has already sparked dissent because it insists that players stick to a strict heteronormality when participating. "

I still think they purposely left in that loophole where you can buy the other chocolates from others so that same-gender couples can participate. They just didn't want any controversy or attention from their japanese peers for obviously endorsing same-gender couples.

Everyone keeps forgetting that most countries aren't as open minded as where you're from. As Zael's already stated, they would get a lot of flack in Japan, as well as other countries they might plan on releasing the game in (Russia, for example). They'd be leaving a lot of money on the table for future releases if they did implement same-sex marriages.

While I'm all for equal rights I understand if they make it male-female only.

Not that it'll matter since everyone will ignore that fact and continue on arguing in countless threads on here anyways.


money > everything else for large companies. They do what will piss off the least amount of people and will net the largest amount of money.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That quest (assuming you're referring to the Valentiones quest) stirred certain negative feelings in parts of the LGBT community. Why on earth would that be a reason to implement marriage with gender restrictions? If anything, it should tell Squeenix that they should try not to leave out segments of their playerbase.

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Did you not read some of the replies from the hetero people?

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

money > everything else for large companies. They do what will piss off the least amount of people and will net the largest amount of money.

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The amount of money SE might get from, say, Russia compared to the US/Canada/Aus/Europe is negligible at best. That's like saying, "SE shouldn't implement same-sex-enabled marriage because it might ruin their chances at a market in Afghanistan." The Russian MMO market simply does not intersect with the kind of game SE is putting out (pay to play, especially).

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Originally Posted by Naunet

The amount of money SE might get from, say, Russia compared to the US/Canada/Aus/Europe is negligible at best. That's like saying, "SE shouldn't implement same-sex-enabled marriage because it might ruin their chances at a market in Afghanistan." The Russian MMO market simply does not intersect with the kind of game SE is putting out (pay to play, especially).

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So, this is an interesting statement. Are you stating that certain markets do not matter as much as other markets? Is that not the same as the the cause that's being argued in the first place?

There's only two camps that I see here. The role players who want this cry loudly about it, well okay fine. You're a role player though, why do you need a system to make this so? Just role play it! For those that aren't role players, you get nothing from this. Once again, why does this system need to exist for you, it does nothing.

Short answer, this is a system the game just doesn't need for -ANYONE- at all.

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Originally Posted by Tahldon

So, this is an interesting statement. Are you stating that certain markets do not matter as much as other markets? Is that not the same as the the cause that's being argued in the first place?

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That is precisely what I'm saying. Though it's secondary to the concept of simply doing what is right when it comes to issues of equality.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That is precisely what I'm saying. Though it's secondary to the concept of simply doing what is right when it comes to issues of equality.

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I'll wager that my opinion in post #50 was missed as to the "why" portion of this whole discussion. I tend to think that the company doesn't want to take a stance on what is "right" or what is "wrong". They just want to produce a product for consumers to buy so that they get out of the red and back into the black.

People are actually mustering a bigger rise out of things that the company isn't even saying. They are adding traditional elements because it's "safe" and their stocks don't plummet because they stepped into a world-wide political arena instead of focusing their efforts on the bottom line like the shareholders want them to do.

I firmly believe that in this case "doing what is right" and "making money" align perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Destrolyn

I know it's re-opening the debate ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ but maybe it's worth thinking whether whether marriage should be introduced at all.

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If you know it's re-opening the debate...the very same debate that gets shut down by GMs most the time...why on earth do you think it's a good idea to post another thread about it?


Why do people continue to think it's "worth" even making yet another thread about it here? It's going to spiral into disaster, people will get suspended / banned from forums for being too passionate about their ideas, and then the thread will be closed and possibly deleted.

So really. You may think it's "worth" thinking about, but I say it's not "worth" stirring the pot around here. Just play the damn game. Chances are if you're marrying a female character, that's probably a guy on the other end anyway.

agreed, why introduce this?
Sure you may get yourself personal housing but how can introducing marriage effect the game?
This game is not Sims or something like that

If a person really wants it that bad; why not marry the person irl or just RP it.

Otherwise leave this Bronco alone, it already suffered enough this year.

Final Fantasy XI

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wedding_Guide

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/20...pport_service!


They've had marriage systems in their games it before - will it be hetero-exclusive in FFXIV if they include it? Who knows~

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Originally Posted by BlueMage

There is no anti-gay lore in Eorzea. SE has even said their sole reason for not allowing same-sex marriage if its added is because they're afraid of upsetting all the IRL homophobes who get upset that gay people even exist.

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It's their game, and nothing is set in stone. If in the end they decide that there wouldn't be same sex marriages, it's their call to set that in the lore and even change it later if they want. That's the whole point of it, it's their fictional world.

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Originally Posted by Destrolyn

If SE started to enact segregation amongst players who have selected a darker skin tone for their characters that would be ok, because it's lore? Absolutely not.

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I love how you have nitpicked what you felt like from my post to "prove" your point, disregarding whatever else I said after the quoted text that would have made your response... illogical. But whatever, I'll tell you what's wrong in that reasoning anyway. That example is bad as, like you said, it would actually enact segregation among those players that had selected that choice presented in the game (giving a stat bonus to all white males of a given race and just the white ones, for example, because it would go against the rules that all other races follow regarding stat allocation). However, not having homosexual marriages in Eorzea (a fictional world) would be akin to not having black elezen, if the writers had chosen to put that restriction in the world. And it wouldn't be racism at all, as it would simply be their choice for that fictional race. Now go tell me that because Santa is portrayed as being a white guy and having a wife then the Christmas are sexist, racist and against homosexuals, please.

To make it clear, and keep in mind that I'm NOT against the LGBT community. If they decide that same sex marriages exist in Eorzea, then so be it. And if they decide that they don't, so be it too. It doesn't really matter, it's a game based on a fictional world created by themselves, and complaining and making pressure against the devs serves no purpose and is a bit tiring (see Valentione's) for a majority of both heteros and homosexuals alike (those that see the game for what it is and don't look for strange things where there is none). The very moment that they start charging you more for your sub (for example) because you -not your character- are [insert sexual orientation, etnicity, or religious belief], I'll go up in arms with you. Until something like that happens, try to see things from a more logical and calmed point of view, please.

But anyway, I won't post anymore. It's always the same posts over and over and I've already stated my opinion and the reasons as of why it wouldn't matter at all (key words here), in both my posts. If people want to keep blowing things out of proportion and continue arguing over a non issue, they're free to do so. I hope that at least someone has understood what I was trying to say.

P.S.: If anything, I like the option of just implementing some rings that can be engraved with another character's name, and letting everything else for the players to RP. It would solve all this for everyone without directly compromising the lore nor SE (as with the chocolates in the event).

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I firmly believe that in this case "doing what is right" and "making money" align perfectly.

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"Doing what is right" really depends on what side of the topic your on. There is no right or wrong. Just difference of opinion.
Making money, however definitely points towards hetero weddings since other parts of the world are not as open minded as others.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

The amount of money SE might get from, say, Russia compared to the US/Canada/Aus/Europe is negligible at best. That's like saying, "SE shouldn't implement same-sex-enabled marriage because it might ruin their chances at a market in Afghanistan." The Russian MMO market simply does not intersect with the kind of game SE is putting out (pay to play, especially).

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You're forgetting about that Japanese home market though, and the fact that the people that run SE are older more traditional japanese. To add in same sex marriage would not be as easy as you think for them, I'll leave my opinion out of it this time since those who frequent these threads know it by now. Thier home market is roughly half of the game so they have to thread lightly.

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Originally Posted by ItzKris

"Doing what is right" really depends on what side of the topic your on. There is no right or wrong. Just difference of opinion.
Making money, however definitely points towards hetero weddings since other parts of the world are not as open minded as others.

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Um um... no?

There is no "~opinion~" here. What is right to do is to treat people equally and respectfully, what is wrong to do is get up on a high horse and get all "Your type doesn't deserve this." Of course, SE hasn't done that, but that's how so many people come off as in this thread and on this forum. Discriminating against people's sexual orientation (or gender identity) is about as valid an opinion as being a racist is. It's a stupid opinion that does a crap load more harm to people in the real world than it needs to, and it doesn't deserve to be recognized as a valid reason for not allowing such a thing in a fictional world that doesn't have a society that feels like gay people are some scourge to be dealt with in the first place.

Your "~opinion~" ends when your opinion starts taking things away from other people, that you get by default, because you can't be bothered to share (and hide behind "it's my ~opinion~" so you can laugh off claims about it being rather bigoted).

On the money thing, though, Pokemon X/Y did really well in Japan with 1.8 million sales debut week. Pokemon X/Y does have LGBT characters in the game (they are side characters, but there's more than one and they're a bit more upfront about it and aren't offensive stereotypical caricatures-- like that duo of dudes on a date in one of the restaurants, or the dialogue from one of the game's restaurant workers, or the fact they have an out trans character in the Battle Mansion, all of which are common knowledge... and yet sales for those games haven't plummeted to the depths of the abyss).

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Originally Posted by Naunet

The amount of money SE might get from, say, Russia compared to the US/Canada/Aus/Europe is negligible at best. That's like saying, "SE shouldn't implement same-sex-enabled marriage because it might ruin their chances at a market in Afghanistan." The Russian MMO market simply does not intersect with the kind of game SE is putting out (pay to play, especially).

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It might ruin their chances for their own Japanese market, and SE is taking a lot less risk by not stirring up controversy with them.

Ultimately I agree with the article though. The game does not need an actual marriage system. IMO a good alternative would be to release wedding outfits (including a pastor one) and a wedding hall somewhere that would include interactive wedding bells, music, etc. Let the people roleplay their weddings.

They eventually put it in FFXI, you could buy a wedding dress and a tux, and get rings with the other persons name on it. They could easily do something similar in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Rex

If you know it's re-opening the debate...the very same debate that gets shut down by GMs most the time...why on earth do you think it's a good idea to post another thread about it?

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It only "spirals into disaster" because people (a lot like you) can't leave well enough alone and want to insist that our expectations of equality from SE are nonsense. This topic is clearly worth something to many people, and that is why it keeps coming up. It would do much better if folk didn't come in and try to tell people to "shut up" and "here we go again" - inadvertently (or perhaps deliberately) sparking the very spiral they claim will occur.

Back on topic: SE's already said they want to implement a marriage system. I am all for it, as long as they do not put gender restrictions on it. I think a day like this was an excellent opportunity to revisit the subject, especially as Yoshi & co. need repeated reminder of its importance to us so that they don't decide to forget we exist come development day.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

It's their game, and nothing is set in stone. If in the end they decide that there wouldn't be same sex marriages, it's their call to set that in the lore and even change it later if they want. That's the whole point of it, it's their fictional world.

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Yoshi has actually literally said that same-sex relations are not viewed at all differently in Eorzea than opposite-sex relations.

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Originally Posted by Yshnal

Stuff

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You are absolutely right. It is a fictional world. If one creates a fictional world, they have complete control over whom they choose to represent. As such, not representing a group of people is also an active choice. If they include a same sex only marriage system (if one is created at all) they are making an active choice that explicitly states "In our world, not all people are equal." How is this ok?

Santa being white and married to a woman doesn't make Christmas racist or homophopic. Individuals saying that he can't be portrayed any other way would be.

You mention that it would be ok if the creators decided not to have black Elezen, and that would be ok. What if they made the decision that all characters had to be white? Would that still be ok? What if they all had to be males? Still ok? At what point isn't it?

If we can get married I hope we can get divorced too... Maybe they can code it so the man loses half his stuff and has to pay extra gil every week or so...

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Originally Posted by Alaray

On the money thing, though, Pokemon X/Y did really well in Japan with 1.8 million sales debut week. Pokemon X/Y does have LGBT characters in the game (they are side characters, but there's more than one and they're a bit more upfront about it and aren't offensive stereotypical caricatures-- like that duo of dudes on a date in one of the restaurants, or the dialogue from one of the game's restaurant workers, or the fact they have an out trans character in the Battle Mansion, all of which are common knowledge... and yet sales for those games haven't plummeted to the depths of the abyss).

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LGBT isn't as big of a deal in Japan, it's them getting married that they have more of an issue with (at least, from what I've read and heard from friends in Japan). A lot of people don't have any issue with people of that orientation, they just think of marriage as a do-not-touch type of thing.

I don't agree with that whatsoever, but it's the reasoning behind it.

What is wrong with ppl this is a GAME, I personally don't care if they do or do not allow same sex marriage but for crying out loud none of this even matters if SE decided the world they created will only allow for hetero marriage there is nothing wrong with that!

it is not a hit at any that choose to live differently just like this V-day event isn't a hit at same sex players! simply put its not SE's job to cater to any and every type of player in the world they make games, period. If you can't see yourself playing an MMO (based around combat party content with other players at its core) just because SE didn't add the ability to marry in game characters of the same gender in (and this is the best part) "THEIR" AS IN THEY CREATED AND CAN DO WITH WHAT THEY PLEASE game then you have a serious issue and should probably not play games made by this company.

what I find so funny about this stupid debate is that SE's history of games even back when they were just Squaresoft, has almost always had characters in their games that shared some kind of relationship and said relationship has always been hetero in nature (this was never to hit at players of other lifestyles).

why can't you ppl just enjoy the game these Dev's work hard to provide you no matter what the in game world may be! if they add in game marriage I think it would be awesome for immersion both hetero and same sex if they don't add it due to everyone complaining I find that to be just stupid!

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

What they need to do, to give players something, but avoid any controversy, is just not call it marriage.

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What they need to do is give players a ton of items related to marriage but implement no system. Leave weddings to be something entirely player-run, because the less involved SE becomes in the matter, the less they have to worry about saying the wrong thing.

I've said it before, but at most SE should write articles on the Lodestone on how the city states run weddings to give players a sort of guidelines depending on what type of wedding they want. Lorewise Arcanists, Conjurers and Thaumaturges most likely have enough authority to preside over a wedding, so it'd be real easy to find a player to run the ceremony.